pig sticker tie down?

[musketbal]

Hi all,
Is there any documentation that Federal and Confederates when going into battle would secure their bayonet with string, leather or other methods? Running and rolling around could possibly cause your pig sticker to get lost?

Thanks,

Brent Conner

[Jimmayo]

In over 25 years of reenacting I have only seen a couple of bayonets lost. These were bayonets carried in Enfield scabbards. In one case the whole scabbard and bayonet was lost due to having the wrong style frog (buckle and strap). I know several people who still use the enfield scabbard and they have their bayonets tied in place. A baldric type scabbard is more comfortable and secures the bayonet much better. Since these were more commonly used, accidental loss of bayonets may not have been a significant problem.

To answer your question, I have never read of the bayonets being tied down. If they did it, they probably did not write home about it.

[benjclark]

I've wondered about this also, but have never seen anything. Good question.

[musketbal]

Jim your right on the money, I have a 42 Springfield and a Enfield. The Enfield bayonet is why I asked the question. I guess staight up and down isn't always best???? I purchased a new frog from Nick Duvall. Unfortunately I didn't order the shebang from him.




Brent

[DougCooper]

Excuse me Mr Yank (or Mr Reb), could you hold still while I untie my bayonet?

I would be somewhat amazed to ever read an example of a combat soldier doing such a thing...unless his fear of paying for a new one somehow overcame his fear of not having it instantly available + fear of the Orderly if he noticed ;)

Like Jim, the only lost bayonets I have seen in reenacting were due to a poor fitting scabbard. That is one reason pro's lile Nick Duvall want to know exactly which bayonet you have before he makes the scabbard (original vs repro, type, etc).

[FloridaConscript]

I think a proper bayonet and correct scabbard are the remedy to this situation.

[musketbal]

I will be getting an order in from Nick Duvall tomorrow. Cartridge box, cap pouch, cartridge box belt, federal waist belt, and English "snake" belt. One thing missing, yea you guessed it, the correct bayonet scabbard. Crap... it'll be worth the weight.

Brent Conner

[FloridaConscript]

Brent,
I don't know what untit you most often portray, but sometimes when doing Johnny, leaving the bayonet at home is another good choice. I rarely carry mine when doing AOT.

[LibertyHallVols]

I think a proper bayonet and correct scabbard are the remedy to this situation.

I'm inclined to agree with Mess'r Roberts! If the bayonet fits properly in the scabbard, this shouldn't be an issue... unless you're doing cartwheels or something! :tounge_sm

There are a lot of vendors out there making really good bayonet scabbards. Missouri Boot & Shoe is probably the most cost effective vendor for scabbards right now. I own several of their scabbards and am quite pleased with materials, construction, and fit.

[DougCooper]

Brent,
I don't know what untit you most often portray, but sometimes when doing Johnny, leaving the bayonet at home is another good choice. I rarely carry mine when doing AOT.

This is off the topic...but why?

[Silas]

An example comes from the inventory returns of the 44th Tennessee in early '63. Half the weapons lacked bayonets. That doesn't mean for all regiments at all times portrayed it's appropriate for half the reenactors to go without bayonets. Just means for a particular impression at a particular place and time, it can be okay for half the reenactors to go without.

[FloridaConscript]

This is off the topic...but why?


Doug,
Silas has already mentioned it, but going on some QM reports published in Larry J. Daniels excellent "Soldiering in the Army of Tennessee", it was not uncommon for some divisions to be undersupplied by half when it came to a bayonet.

I don't have the book in front of me (at work), but will post the info later on.

[DougCooper]

An example comes from the inventory returns of the 44th Tennessee in early '63. Half the weapons lacked bayonets. That doesn't mean for all regiments at all times portrayed it's appropriate for half the reenactors to go without bayonets. Just means for a particular impression at a particular place and time, it can be okay for half the reenactors to go without.

Exactly. Thanks Silas.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Because I can't resist stating the obvious, real civil war soldiers in real battles would more likely have their bayonets already out of the scabbards, fixed.

[Jimmayo]

I don't think we can assume that bayonets were fixed just because the troops were engaged in a battle. It doesn't take but a few seconds to fix bayonets. Shooting a musket with a fixed bayonet affects loading and firing just enough so if it were not necessary, bayonets would not be attached. The picture below provides a snapshot of bayonet use. These five rifles came from a covered over CS trench which was captured early in the seige of Petersburg. All were dug the same day. They were in various stages of firing, some with unfired caps, some fired etc. Notice that only two had bayonets attached. Both bayonets are Springfield type even though one of the muskets is an Enfield. Eventually eight rifles came from this trench. Only these two had the bay0nets attached. A dropped bayonet was also found in the trench so they were available. Just thought I would post this for consideration.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

A Unit, Time, and Place trivia bit...

;) :)

Apparently fearful that his sharpshooters would be used a light infantry and not as marksmen, Hiram Berdan looked the other way when the new Berdan Contract NM1859 Sharps Rifles arrived in May/June1862- giving the men the "option" of taking the socket bayonet or not.
When a December 12, 1862 inspection found roughly half the Sharpshooters without bayonets, Berdan lied, and also blamed some of the men- falsely saying that some rifles did not come with bayonets and that some men had lost or thrown them away in the companies that did get them.
Of 426 rifles on hand, only 247 had bayonets (roughly 60%).

Berdan was court-martialled on March 2, 1863, and the bayonet issue became Specification 4 of of the charges and specifications.
(Having political connections), he was found "Not Guilty" of all charges.

The verdict was appealed, including new claims of witness intimidation.

The review held that the charges were proven, but that a "Not Guilty" was given anyways contrary to evidence.

The general in charge was not pleased, ordered the publishing of the proceedings which served to quiet Berdan's boasting of total exoneration.

For reasons unknown, but suspected as political influence, the general rescinded his disapproval of the verdict.

Somewhere where I cannot find at the moment- I have an image of a CW belt, holster, and belt knife where the knife sheath has a tie-down loop.

HOWEVER, the surviving artifacts lack provenance and context. Meaning, while a Civil War soldier could have worn the rig as it is in the image, the "ensemble" could have just as easily been worn by an 1870/1880/1890's or 1940's, etc., or later lad.

IMHO and IMHE, a properly made and fitting bayonet scabbard (or knife sheath) does NOT need a tie-down loop.
SOME reproductions... well....

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[Pvt Schnapps]

I don't think we can assume that bayonets were fixed just because the troops were engaged in a battle. It doesn't take but a few seconds to fix bayonets. Shooting a musket with a fixed bayonet affects loading and firing just enough so if it were not necessary, bayonets would not be attached. The picture below provides a snapshot of bayonet use. These five rifles came from a covered over CS trench which was captured early in the seige of Petersburg. All were dug the same day. They were in various stages of firing, some with unfired caps, some fired etc. Notice that only two had bayonets attached. Both bayonets are Springfield type even though one of the muskets is an Enfield. Eventually eight rifles came from this trench. Only these two had the bay0nets attached. A dropped bayonet was also found in the trench so they were available. Just thought I would post this for consideration.


You're absolutely right. I don't disagree with what you found, or with the increased awkwardness of loading with a bayonet. But since most reenactments don't allow you to fix bayonets during the engagement at all, any of the real battles would "more likely" see fixed bayonets than any reenactment.

But beyond that, I've never seen such a tie mentioned in journals or letters, and the army never seemed to think it necessary to add such as an item of equipment. Those facts alone would lead me to think that the whole question of how to keep a bayonet in its scabbard while you're running and jumping around would be more of a concern for reenactors than the soldiers themselves.

The example you cite could be interpreted as reinforcing my original point, since two of the three bayonets found were on the weapons. The other five might have been in their scabbards or, per the example cited of the AOT, they might not have been there at all.

FWIW, I've only tied down a bayonet when required by park rules. I've never had one loose in the scabbard, so maybe I'm just less sympathetic to the issue to begin with.

[Masich]

Early in the war, several companies of the First California Infantry lost large numbers of their issued 1855 pattern bayonets. The cause? Insufficient supplies of the proper scabbard meant that ordnance officers issued the shorter 1842 scabbard. Captains and even the colonel commanding complained bitterly. The scabbard situation was eventually addressed. No mention of tie-downs in official correspondence--but it could have happened, especially when the officers and men figured out the problem.

[LibertyHallVols]

Missing bayonets isn't just an "AoT Thing". The roll book of the orderly sergeant of the Liberty Hall Volunteers in June, 1861 shows a number of men missing bayonets, as well as scabbards and other equipment. I'd have to dig out my copy of the rollbook for exact numbers and percentages... but the example is there!

[Pvt_Sullivan]

This might be obvious... But if you are liable to lose your bayonet on a daily basis, maybe you shouldn't carry one at all.

In a more serious note. Does anyone have documentation of the percentage of soldiers overall in either Army that went without a bayonet?

[FloridaConscript]

"Soldiering in the Army of Tennessee" by Larry J. Daniel, page 24:

"While at Tullahoma, the infantry reported a dearth of bayonets; only half of the troops were supplied with them. LTC Fremantle noted the shortage but remarked that many of the men had thrown theirs away, 'as they assert that have never met any yankees who could wait for the weapon'."

Another page over, it is noted in one of Oladowski's report, that in April of 1864 there were 12,610 knapsacks in Hardee's corps, which listed 16,941 effectives. Thats 3 out 4 men with a knapsack at the onset of the Atlanta campaign.

BR

[musketbal]

During events I've never lost my bayonet, Its just that because my enfield scabbard doesn't properly fit that I first thought of the original question posted. When I was in the "real" Army, I was able to make life a little easier by improvising.

Thanks,

Brent Conner

[cannonfodder]

I've often wondered if I should tie my scabbard somehow when marching. I have a '61 springfield with a generic 7 rivet scabbard. It always flops out and hits the guy next to me. When doing Federal I put my waistbelt under the front haversack strap and that seems to help keep it closer. When doing Conferderate my haversack is smaller and higher up so I usually move the scabbard towards my back. I'd appreciate any advice if I should tie it around my leg. My father's WWll Marine Corps bayonet has a leather tie I believe for that reason.

[PvtHull48thovi]

You Know guys, I would have to say that even though they didnt tie them down "due" to the proper fitting scabbard, bayonets were lost quite often. Come down to Manisfield or Pleasant Hill Louisiana and there are plenty of them in the museum that were all found scattered through out the battelfeild that were considered DROPS when they were found due to the lack of any rivets or other metals found around them when found!

[Jimmayo]

You Know guys, I would have to say that even though they didnt tie them down "due" to the proper fitting scabbard, bayonets were lost quite often. Come down to Manisfield or Pleasant Hill Louisiana and there are plenty of them in the museum that were all found scattered through out the battelfeild that were considered DROPS when they were found due to the lack of any rivets or other metals found around them when found!

There may be something to that. I have dug 10 bayonets, none with any signs of a scabbard. One was found on the CS picket line at Five Forks pushed down in the ground until the socket was level with the ground. One was pushed in the face of the earthworks at the present day site of Pamplin Park. I think it was used to aid in climbing over the works. It used to be on display in the battle museum and I believe it is still there. Most of the rest have been dug from inside or behind works.

[10TnVI]

Jim-just a personal observation-at the Vicksburg LH a couple of years ago the federals were in a trench with sloping side. In order to load we had to either squat in the bottom of the ditch or roll on our backs to load. After a very short time I observed that most people had removed their bayonets from the scabbards and stuck them in the bank. The gaylord style scabbard juts out backward at an angle and makes rolling over quite annoying if left in the scabbard. Removed, the scabbard can flex when rolling onto the side or back.

Not yet seen it documented in writing in period, but just a possible explanation for the finds you mention.

[Jimmayo]

Jim-just a personal observation-at the Vicksburg LH a couple of years ago the federals were in a trench with sloping side. In order to load we had to either squat in the bottom of the ditch or roll on our backs to load. After a very short time I observed that most people had removed their bayonets from the scabbards and stuck them in the bank. The gaylord style scabbard juts out backward at an angle and makes rolling over quite annoying if left in the scabbard. Removed, the scabbard can flex when rolling onto the side or back.

Not yet seen it documented in writing in period, but just a possible explanation for the finds you mention.

That could be true but the trenches I was in you could stand up and load while still be behind cover. They have some very deep trenches or did around Petersburg and Cold Harbor. It seems that they have filled in at least a foot in the very bottoms. More along the sides. I loved hunting them.

[rogue]

Jim,
A buddy and I hunted in Bermuda Hundred trenches in the winter of 1962 and 1963 with Sam McClaren and found two bayonets in trench walls as you mentioned. Not lying in the bottom, but thrust into the forward wall. This was a long occupied seige operation and the idea that the bayonets were there to help get out of deep trenches makes sense. We were digging on the land of a can company, without permission (the olde days) but filled in our holes like good little out of state visitors. We also lugged back to Illinois a heavy and huge CCC saw blade that took an hour to excavate. The folly of youth!
S.Sullivan

[Pvt Schnapps]

Forget what I said earlier. This quote comes from Augustus Myers' Ten Years in the Ranks, U. S. Army, p. 230, and describes the first time he went into action on the Peninsula during the Seven Days:

When we came to the little stream previously mentioned, we filed to the right and passed along for some distance, halted, closed up the ranks and fixed bayonets when I discovered that I had lost mine; it had slipped out of its scabbard while I was climbing a fence.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Forget what I said earlier. This quote comes from Augustus Myers' Ten Years in the Ranks, U. S. Army, p. 230, and describes the first time he went into action on the Peninsula during the Seven Days:

When we came to the little stream previously mentioned, we filed to the right and passed along for some distance, halted, closed up the ranks and fixed bayonets when I discovered that I had lost mine; it had slipped out of its scabbard while I was climbing a fence.

[PogueMahone]

There may be something to that. I have dug 10 bayonets, none with any signs of a scabbard. One was found on the CS picket line at Five Forks pushed down in the ground until the socket was level with the ground. One was pushed in the face of the earthworks at the present day site of Pamplin Park. I think it was used to aid in climbing over the works. It used to be on display in the battle museum and I believe it is still there. Most of the rest have been dug from inside or behind works.

In his book "Yankee Tigers", Ralsa Rice describes entering Franklin, TN, in 1862, on the skirmish line. He waded the Harpeth River and found the opposite bank too steep to climb. He stuck his NCO sword into the river bank and used it as a step and left it there. He later reported it "lost on the field of battle".

I often wonder where Rice crossed the Harpeth. I bet that sword is still there.