AoA...Decisions, and why they are not so easy...

[BobDenton37thVA]

Folks,

There has been some chatter from the ranks regarding our decision to "pull the plug" at the Assault on Allegheny event yesterday. Although I am sure I won't answer all the questions or critiques, I must try to explain.

First off, this event was set in a unique geography and climate. The terrain in the Allegheny Mountains of VA/WV is extremely rugged; the mountain grades are steep, and the changeable weather only increases the risks. We decided to stage two columns on Friday that both, once they stepped-off, would be miles from their vehicles. And not just simple road miles; miles that extended across dirt roads with steep grades (some of the slopes the Old Pike Road runs along are in excess of 70-degrees).

Second, at about 4:30 PM on Saturday, we needed to decide on a course of action. Now bear in mind; I've been going to the Alleghenies since I was a teenage boy, long before I started reenacting. I know the terrain, the roads, and the dangers that can be posed there. In the summer, it rains there every night sometimes, but these are quick, "mountain" thunder-showers, and they generally dissipate around sunset. Unfortunately, when we checked the radar images, we realized that this was NOT the normal summer event on the Top of Allegheny. A front had stalled over our area; thunderstorms, some of them severe, had started to "train", one after the other, like boxcars on a railroad track. And they were training directly over where we were. The second, third and fourth of a total of at least five cells that had formed were moving towards us, they were severe, contained intense lightning, and they would hit us one after the other, until nearly dawn (we had over 3 inches of rain).

So, we had to make a decision. We could:
1. Stay put;
2. Wait, and see if it got worse and then decide what to do;
3. Pull the plug and get while the getting was good.

Now here's where things get complicated. If we took option (1), then we would be facing the option of driving individuals down all night who DID want to leave. If someone decided to walk the 7.1 miles down to the parking area on their own, they would be doing it in total darkness, in pouring rain, and one misstep would mean we would have to do a mountainside rescue on slopes greater than 45-degrees. I do cave rescue, and believe me, trying to get someone off a mountainside in the pouring rain, who has a broken leg, twisted ankle or concussion is no joke.

If we had waited, then things could have gotten even worse. The road conditions had already degenerated when we DID pull the plug to such a degree, that it was taking the shuttle trucks a full hour to make it down and up again (only 14.2 miles round trip!) Why was it taking so long you ask? Because as time went on, the Old Pike Road was turning into a mountain stream. Traction was bad due to the saturated clayey silt soils, visibility kept getting worse and worse, and eventually the whole Pike was locked in clouds and mist. If we had waited, it would have been that MUCH worse, and then we risked the possibility of a truck going off the Pike. Not something you'd want to take responsibility for.

So we opted for (3) above.

Now let's face it, the majority of our event goals had already been met in that we accomplished the marches and the Saturday skirmishes and battle. I regret that we weren't able to do the tours of the original site on Sunday morning, but sadly, that's how things go sometimes.

If someone here want to get pissed-off at me or Dave or Scott for pulling the plug, so be it. We were playing (or being allowed to play) on private land, and the landowner even insisted that we cancel the event for safety's sake. But this wasn't an event where you could simply walk a mile or less on flat ground to get back to your vehicle. Nor did we have the luxury, as at our McDowell events, to put everyone up in emergency shelters. We had to make a command decision, and that was predicated on the safety of the participants, first and foremost. In all our years of staging events in VERY rugged and challenging terrain, we have never had a serious accident. We are very proud of that track record, and always want to keep it that way.

So before you spew vitriol and criticism our way, put yourselves in our shoes, and think about it a little more. Maybe you'll take a more mature approach towards your reproach, eh?

And one more thing...if, just if, someone had been seriously injured, or killed, because we had decided NOT to pull the plug, imagine what people would be saying then. Believe me, it would not have been pretty.

Thanks to all those who have supported is in our decision. To those who disagree, accept my deepest apologies. But to all of you who came, happy or not, know that you participated in a unique, challenging and difficult event, and helped keep the museum in McDowell open for another two years by your generous contributions. We are all in your debt.

With my sincerest regards,
your servant, et c.,
Bob Denton
Assault on Allegheny Event Coordinator

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

So before you spew vitriol and criticism our way, put yourselves in our shoes, and think about it a little more. Maybe you'll take a more mature approach towards your reproach, eh?

Bob-
Thank you for looking after everyone's personal health. While we were a bit disappointed that the event was short-lived, we certainly enjoyed the time we were given and look forward to future prospects.

Best,

[Duff]

Honestly the only thing anyone can be pissed off at is the weather.

[BWT]

Amen brother.

[RN_PAC]

Bob-

I empathize. More than once, in the time leading up to the cancellation and during the retreat from the mountain top, I envisioned myself being responsible for the decision and logistics and I cannot imagine handling that with any kind of relish. I also admit feeling a little bit "out there" way on top with limited means of getting down safely under, frankly, hazardous circumstances (and none of them under my personal control except walking, an option with clear limitations of its own) and I think you do what you had to do. I knew the risks, so to speak, and have absolutely no ill feeling towards anyone. Look at what we do, for Pete's sake; and at the mercy of the elements to boot. No one could help that.

Ultimately, I really enjoyed the event.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Bob,

I enjoyed the march (always enjoy marching/camping where the real soldiers did it), but I'm wondering where the contingency plan was.

As eluded above...also knowing the Allegheneys and that a 30% chance of rain from March to October ought to be taken as a 95% chance of rain, I feel we as a team of organizers/officers/soldiers were ill-prepared for what we should have seen coming.

Having an event site so remotely located, calling the event off, not getting folks off the mountain until 2030, and then having the only option be to drive the 1-1.5 hr. East to Staunton for the night (after these guys were wet/cold/tired/hungry) seems almost of equal peril (if not greater)...yes I've driven those mountain roads before and with the weather and folks being tired I know they can be dangerous (had a friend in college drive over one of those mountain sides).

Plan B: If events in remote locations get 'called-off' because of peril, there's got to be a better option than sending these guys so far away to have solice for the night.

Paul B.

(Who was dry, fed, and settling in for the night when the event was called...)

[RN_PAC]

East to Staunton for the night (after these guys were wet/cold/tired/hungry) seems almost of equal peril (if not greater)...yes I've driven those mountain roads before and with the weather and folks being tired I know they can be dangerous (had a friend in college drive over one of those mountain sides).


I made that drive and was never so schizy and whiteknuckled behind the wheel in my life....should have had a tiny caption at the bottom that said "Closed course. Professional Driver." Holy hell. Heavy rain. Dense patchy fog. One more grade warning sign and I would've gone flat postal. (I was inordinately pissed after the second mountain or so...little did I know there were, like, 673 more). "Loose Gravel". "Beware fallen rocks". "No littering" (well, that one was okay except it was in the middle of a turn that probably should have been labelled with a "15 mph" sign and a bunch of chevrons at diminishing intervals instead) ... I wouldn't have been surprized to see a "Caution: Tellermine area" or "Beware Charging Unicorns" the way things were goin'. Too bad I didn't have a lump of coal 'cause my wife would've had a stone to rival the Hope diamond by the time I hit Staunton if it were located in the proper anatomic position. Gawd.

[Wild Rover]

Having been there and done that, sitting alone and making decisions that you know will be discussed for months maybe years on the forums is an extremely lonely place to be.

Sometimes you make the right one, sometimes not. But you have to make a decisions based upon the imperfect information.

Huge thanks to anyone who takes up the mantel and runs an event. The last thing you want to see is that 18 months of hard work is destroyed in a few hours bad weather, or a few days of forum postings.

Till you have been there, with hundreds to thousands of folks dependant on you and your decision, you cannot appreciate the situation.

I cannot comment on the event and exact situation first hand. I was still in the process of moving and everything I had lined up fell apart thursday, and having renters moving in this week, I had no choice but to finish the hand.

I would have much rather been on a Mountain in WV getting rained on. Trust me.

But knowing Bob and Dave, I am sure they made the right choice for most of the folks invloved.

Some folks will say otherwise, and that is their right.

Can't please everyone all the time. Have that T shirt.

Pards,

[PogueMahone]

Bob,

Having been in those shoes a couple of times, I can appreciate the full range of emotions you went through making that decision. I'm sure you are just as disappointed as any participant that the event was called early and you didn't get to finish the thing as planned. The descriptions I've heard about the road conditions and the weather expected make me think you did the right thing.

As much as any other campaigner, I'm ready to take my misery at an event and consider it "doing as they did" and can equally understand the frustrations and disappoints of those that were able to secure shelter and food and felt they could make it through the night. Bully for you! Next time, maybe you can stay. But this time the event folks had things to consider other than your desires.

If you went and weren't prepared with the necessary skills to make it through the night, find some knowledgeable folks and ask them to take you camping and teach you. It doesn't have to be an event or a long drive, just some field nearby for the night.

[27VA]

Gentleman,

Have to say thanks to those who volunteered to shuttle dirty/wet reenactors
down the pike late Sat afternoon. "The Evacuation" went off well, for not being planned.

[OldState]

I think there is a custom/rule on this board that you don't make a statement without citing a historical reference to back it up.
I would propose a "rule" that you shouldn't complain about or question the judgement of event organizers without offering a viable solution or alternative.

Thanks again to the event organizers. Know that your efforts are appreciated by a great many that attended.

[mtodriscoll]

This was my first campaigning event (as was also true for my friend that came along), and we had a blast. We will definitely do this again. The march was simply amazing and the battle on Saturday was also quite an experience. Engaging the Federals on the road and in the trees was inspirational. Many thanks to the civilian women selling vittles on the road to meet the Feds - the rolls and apple butter were GREAT!

Many thanks to the Federals as well. You took many convincing hits on the road and persevered after a long, hard, uphill march.

Standing on the ridge top with those glorious views, watching the Federals march across the meadow towards us, hearing those eery echos of musket fire returning across the valley, afterwards huddling under a shebang in the rain muching on dinner - all cherished memories...

KUDOS to the band!!! Their music was inspirational on the march and helped me to get a real 1860's buzz on the Old Pike Rd. Heck, they even played during the evacuation from the mountain while it was raining. Made me think of the Titanic...

I was initially disappointed when the event was called, but after I got home to Charlottesville Saturday night and saw the same radar picture that the organizers must have seen, I was grateful for their wise decision!!

Thanks for a great and memorable event!

[Marylander in Grey]

A note that I sent to Dave via Email.
Mr. Pridgeon,
I understood and fully accepted your decision. I had a grand old time and eagerly await y'alls next adventure for us.
Logistically I feel a Superb job was preformed by your Staff especially the evacuation under the circumstances. Thank you for forcing the issue with some of us more hard headed Sons.
Perhaps finding a suitable area in the town for us to pitch camp or notifying us of permission of the owner of the drive in for us to stay in our vehicles would be food for future thought.
Once again thanks to you and the PSL for a great event. Please send my personal thanks to the land owner for sharing some of the most beautiful land I have ever had the privilege of playing on.
I would also like to thank those who helped get us down. Great Pards you truely are.
I remain Your Most Humble Servant,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Without shades of the Modern Military's duties to the "mission" and the "men,"

My compliments to the commanders for making the tough and potentially unpopular Real World decision.

A "command" is only as strong as its and most ill-prepared and inexperienced men. Accident, harm, or serious injuries were avoided.

Being from that part of the country, the dangers of the mountains are not a matter of opinion or debate. Nature is very unforgiving, and experience is a harsh teacher.

There are few outdooor experiences more challenging than being on a mountain top during a severe mountain storm. My last one on the second highest peak in Pennsylvania, miles from vehicles, under a ground cloth, with gale force winds, multiple lightning striking trees 50 and 75 feet away, and finding four inches of water in my cup come morning light was... memorable.

I am reminded of "Northwest Passage."

Hunk Marriner: [upset] But I'd hate to be a man and always be as right as you are.
Maj. Robert Rogers: I'm not a man now, Sergeant. I'm a soldier and commander of men.
[pause]
Maj. Robert Rogers: If you ever meet me when I'm just a man, you may have to use a little charity.
Hunk Marriner: [shocked] Yes, sir.
[pause]
Hunk Marriner: I'm sorry, sir.

Again compliments to everyone involved.

Curt

[Grapeshot]

Bob and Dave, you made the right call.

Thanks for making possible some great memories of that awesome land.

Also, many thanks to the Ls. and S. for letting us play on their properties. There are few people whom would allow this these days.

[mtodriscoll]

While I agree with the call on the weather...

What did ya'll think of the ride up the mountain on Friday night for the confederates. 10 guys + gear loaded into the bed of a pickup truck driving 60+ mph on a twisty mountain road in the dark. I know I was praying the whole way that a deer didn't jump out in front of us...

I wonder how many "liability" thoughts were given to that aspect of the event? Just curious. It was a great event, and other than the ride up, I was pleased with the logisitics. They did a great job keeping us watered - which was my main concern prior to leaving for the event.

Thanks again for a great time.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

A note that I sent to Dave via Email.
Mr. Pridgeon,
I understood and fully accepted your decision. I had a grand old time and eagerly await y'alls next adventure for us.
Logistically I feel a Superb job was preformed by your Staff especially the evacuation under the circumstances. Thank you for forcing the issue with some of us more hard headed Sons.
Perhaps finding a suitable area in the town for us to pitch camp or notifying us of permission of the owner of the drive in for us to stay in our vehicles would be food for future thought.
Once again thanks to you and the PSL for a great event. Please send my personal thanks to the land owner for sharing some of the most beautiful land I have ever had the privilege of playing on.
I would also like to thank those who helped get us down. Great Pards you truely are.
I remain Your Most Humble Servant,

Agreed...event was what I expected.

The call on the weather was VERY Dissapointing...what was more frustrating was being told to leave the site, and not at least be able to March out (understand - risks associated with slick Mtn. Roads/trucks).

Single most important lesson...the importance of an acceptable "Plan B/Contingency Plan"...what to do when the weather turns sour.

Paul B.

[OldState]

Single most important lesson...the importance of an acceptable "Plan B/Contingency Plan"...what to do when the weather turns sour.

Paul B.

Is shuttling people off the mountain in the event of bad weather not qualified as a "contingency plan"? What were you looking for them to do? What alternative/plan B/Contingency Plan would you offer to the event planners?

I'm just curious as to why some people felt surprised and disappointed by the event being called off and people transported off the mountain given the weather conditions.
Before I left my house I checked the forecast for the area. The forecast for Saturday night and Sunday was 50% chance of rain and lightening. Adding in the elevation, I surmised that the chances of the event being called off midway was quite high ... maybe 60% to 70%. That being said, I still went feeling that we could still get Friday night and Saturday in and that would be worth the trip. If it got called off I would go home or stay in a hotel on the way and do some touring on the way back depending on what the others in my group were up to.

So in effect I had made my own Plan B and C. I don't know, maybe I think to much about stuff.:thinking:

[BobDenton37thVA]

Folks,

I've read with interest the responses to my post; and am grateful to the folks who have shown considerable understanding. This will be my last post regarding the subject, and then I shall put this behind me.

Regarding contingency plans; in reality, we had warned everyone of the extremely high probability of rain prior to the event; like I've said before, if it's hot and humid off the mountain, it rains on the mountain every evening. If it's comfortable and dry off the mountain, it's cold up there. That's the simple truth.

When the first shower came through, I really hadn't given it much thought. I thought to myself, "ah well...typical weather up here at 4,000'...nothin' unusual". But then, the second wave came through. At that point, our generous landowner grabbed me and said with some serious anxiety, "Bob, you REALLY need to come see the radar images; it does NOT look good...". Dave and I went to his house to look at the radar; but I was resisting the whole notion of canceling tooth and nail. But when I saw what was coming, my jaw dropped. It was the worst possible scenario. Not a frontal passage, not an evening "orogenic lift" thundershower; this was the classic, stalled front "train" of T-storms. And the front had settled directly over us. We were in for it, there was no mistaking it.

Now bear in mind, we had carried canvas up the mountain in the "wagons", because we knew the possibility of rain or showers was high. It's always a high probability there this time of year. But this was different; very different. This was the extreme scenario for which the only contingency is GET OUT NOW. The temperature dropped to 57 degrees that night; if guys were soaked to the skin, hypothermia was a distinct possibility. And believe me, no matter how dry and secure someone might have been at the start of this series of storms, by 2:00 AM they would have been soaked. You see, the most severe of the storms didn't even arrive until we had everyone off the mountain. There were three of them, in sequential order, with smaller downpours in between (it rained almost continuously until dawn). Also, remember that the weather forecast had been for only a slight chance of thunderstorms through Sunday afternoon, so we knew we had a significant chance for them due to the topography. But no one could have predicted what would happen.

And finally, know that as disappointed as some of you may have been, no one, and I emphasize, no one, was more disappointed than Dave and me. My joy in this hobby has been to help provide you all with events like this and McDowell for these many years. My "pay-off" is to know you have had an enjoyable, substantive, and challenging experience. The most gratifying moment for me at each and every McDowell is when I get to say goodbye to all of you as you descend safely from the mountain on Sunday morning, and I get to see the smiles on your faces. That makes it all worth it...that's my "moment".

Be that as it may, I thank you all for your kind words of support.

Your servant, et c.,
Bob D.

[Prodical Reb]

...I'm just curious as to why some people felt surprised and disappointed by the event being called off and people transported off the mountain given the weather conditions.
Before I left my house I checked the forecast for the area. The forecast for Saturday night and Sunday was 50% chance of rain and lightening. Adding in the elevation, I surmised that the chances of the event being called off midway was quite high ... maybe 60% to 70%. That being said, I still went feeling that we could still get Friday night and Saturday in and that would be worth the trip......

I think some people not familiar w/weather patterns in the mountains and the predictabilty, or lack of, said weather as you are, there really don't know what they don't know.

It thundered all night long. the rain didn't end until morning. It wasn't a light shower either. with temps plunging into the 5os, the wind blowing making wind chill a factor, making it feel like 40 or less degrees it doesn't take long for hypothermia to take effect before one realizes what is happening to himself. Hopefully he'd have a vigilant pard who knows the signs!

Bob, you made the right call! Everybody went home to their loved ones. We all can live w/that!

[mattifatti]

There are not many events you can attend and get out of a full weekend what we got out of the day we spent in those mountains. I was fully satisified just finding out camp friday night and then sleeping near those earthworks...and that was just the beginning! I fully apprecaite everyone's effort to make this happen. Everything was superb from the organization to the leadership and on down to the men in the ranks.
I am also thankful for being given the opportunity to shuttle people off that hill. Mine was more of a selfish reason that starts with having a truck with an offroad package and living in a place in south jersey where the biggest hill we have is a sand dune off of Long Beach Island. I relished at the opportunity to do a little "woodsin" while at the same time offer my services to men/women who attended the event.
Looking forward to the next one!
Matt Kraybill

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Is shuttling people off the mountain in the event of bad weather not qualified as a "contingency plan"? What were you looking for them to do? What alternative/plan B/Contingency Plan would you offer to the event planners?

Proposed Contingency Plan: Understanding that the landowner was concerned about our welfare on his property, I realize that Bob and Dave had to get us down.

A proposed Plan B, as my Marylander in Grey noted above would have been to have a Barn, or area in the lowlands where folks could be allowed to set up Camp if they chose to do so.


I'm just curious as to why some people felt surprised and disappointed by the event being called off and people transported off the mountain given the weather conditions.

Really?? It didn't suprise you that the event was called off due to rain?? Boys and Girls ages 10-21, go camping in the rain every weekend and don't call off events due to it. It's called BEING PREPARED.


Before I left my house I checked the forecast for the area. The forecast for Saturday night and Sunday was 50% chance of rain and lightening. Adding in the elevation, I surmised that the chances of the event being called off midway was quite high ... maybe 60% to 70%. That being said, I still went feeling that we could still get Friday night and Saturday in and that would be worth the trip. If it got called off I would go home or stay in a hotel on the way and do some touring on the way back depending on what the others in my group were up to.


As to your comment about planning ahead, I'd say a good number of Confederates planned ahead (and heck probably a few Federals as well), packing in an extra woolen shirt/two, having shelter...etc. We had 5 fairly warm/dry folks under out rain-fly.

Having read and discussed with a number of folks that 30% chance of rain in the Mnts. of VA means 99% of rain in some form, we knew it was going to rain. Having wet/cold/tired/hungry people get on the road @ 2100 hrs. for as another fellow put it 'white-knuckled' drive through wet, windy mountain roads (in some areas being blotted out by fog/cloud cover), did not seem like a 'concerned' contingency.


So in effect I had made my own Plan B and C. I don't know, maybe I think to much about stuff.:thinking:

So in effect, I would have a hard time attending another one of these events knowing that the probability of it being 'called off' was say anything more than 5%.

Lightening/Rain is not a reason to call an event off...after all...wasn't part of the reason for NOT doing this event in the appropriate time season, because of the likelihood of the weather turning sour, and thereby the program being cancelled mid-event?? Just thinking what we gained here...sigh

Paul B.

[Hank Trent]

Having wet/cold/tired/hungry people get on the road @ 2100 hrs. for as another fellow put it 'white-knuckled' drive through wet, windy mountain roads (in some areas being blotted out by fog/cloud cover), did not seem like a 'concerned' contingency.

I wasn't at the event, and am glad of that, but the above situation is something I'm concerned about. Simply removing reenactors from the place where they thought they'd have permission to stay, and turning them out to fend for themselves, doesn't strike me as necessarily in their best interests, although it may be in the best interests of the organizers who no longer want to be legally liable for participants' safety on site.

Here's something I posted on another forum where we were discussing this:

My solution: unless there's clear and unavoidable danger like a forest fire or a rising river heading straight for the site, give participants the option of leaving or continuing, depending on what they feel is safest, and consolidate those who want to stay into groups as large as practical, so no one's left alone. Then let those who came to reenact, reenact.

(The Plan B that several have mentioned, of having a safer contingency place to camp on site like a barn, is also of course an excellent solution.)

We need some lawyerly input, but surely there's some way to minimize liability when allowing people to stay, by announcing the potential risks you're aware of (weather forecast, history of flooding in the area, etc.) and getting a verbal agreement from those staying that they're doing so with an awareness of the risks and were given the option of leaving.

I'm also curious what if any legal (or moral) responsibility an event organizer would have if a participant attended an event with the belief that he'd have a site to stay on until Sunday, had access to the site revoked through no fault of his own even though he asked to stay because he felt that leaving was unsafe, and was injured doing what he'd asked not to be required to do (such as drive in the dark in a storm). Would that truly be a liability-free decision for the organizer?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[pfeiffer3964]

Did anyone raise with Bob or Dave their concerns with driving? If not, perhaps if someone had, additional accommodations could/would have been made. Maybe it wasn't really an oversight in the "contingency plan," but rather a non-issue because no one asked or raised a concern. I don't know the answer.

I know I wasn't looking forward to the drive. So we drove for a couple hours and laid over in a parking lot in Harrisonburg. No biggie.

P.S. Thanks to Bob, Dave and everyone else who turned out for a stellar event. Sore feet and all, it was quite enjoyable. THANKS!

[OldState]

Really?? It didn't suprise you that the event was called off due to rain?? Boys and Girls ages 10-21, go camping in the rain every weekend and don't call off events due to it. It's called BEING PREPARED.





Bad analogy. Camping in some low land scout camp or camping ground in the rain is quite different from weathering a mountain storm at 4000ft. I have backpacked all my life and in various areas of the country including the Shenandoah Valley. I have been stuck in mountain storms and they are VERY different. I own the best modern rain gear that money can buy and it didn't keep me dry during late July storm on Mt Madison NH at around 4400ft. The wind blew the rain up our coat and pant cuffs and soaked the lot of us inspite of our gear. The temperature was 70 when the storm started and 38 twenty minutes later. Many well prepared people have died of hypothermia hiking through summer storms in the Appalachian mountains. Google it.
I would have loved to have seen the condition of the "troops" after weathering a mountain storm for 8 hours with period gear. It would have been irresponsible for the planners to allow people to stay there and an exercise in naive stupidity for anyone to decide to stay on there own.

[LibertyHallVols]

To quote a man whom I respect:
Second Guessing when there were no injuries or life threatening harm makes the decision look wrong. Playing the Blame Game after the fact, criticizing and condemning a lack of decision or action when there were injuries or life threatening harm makes is another story.

Thread Closed.