Why those long wide Bowie knives?

[Lance Stifle]

Has anyone thought about those long wide Bowie knives we often see being held up by Civil War soldiers on both sides when they were photographed?

Were they only photographers props?

Were they ever carried by the troops as an effective weapon on either side, at any time during the war?

Your considered thoughts please.

There may be an answer from a conflict on "the other side of the world".

Kim Stewart-Gray

"I am with the South in death, in victory or defeat...I never owned a Negro and care nothing for them,
but these people have been my friends and have stood up to me on all occasions."
Patrick Cleburne 1860.

[fahnenschmied]

Those big "Bowies", which look like part ships cutlass and part Roman sword were not just studio props. They were made in pretty good numbers at the outset of the war, and they were carried for a short while. (At least, till the first long march.) Yet I cannot tell you if they were ever effective weapons. Perhaps in some shipboard scuffle somewhere... They weren't just made in little blacsmith shops, but also in some private armouries - one not far from here in Keenansville, NC springs to mind. A lot of people THOUGHT they would be an effective weapon!
Pikes, too, were made in large numbers at the outset, but I couldn't tell you if they were ever effective weapons, on sea or on land during the conflict..

Dave Stone

[Andrew Kasmar]

They are not just a early war weapon, for there are originals and documentation linking large side knifes for the Red River and Franklin Campaigns of 1864. They have also been found at battlefields of 1865 in North Carolina. Not sure if this will help you with your original question, but it does indicate that they were used well after the opening year of the war. Thanks

All the best,

Andrew

[csabugler]

I don't have the document in front of me but something like 2 tenths of 1 percent of recorded wounds were inflicted by edged blades. That's 2 out of 1000, and all edged blades combined. That stat indicates knives were seldom used as a weapon. There have been several discussions here about the likelyhood that someone in a "mess" might carry a large knife as a tool, or maybe 1 among a few messes.
You can thank Hollywood for the image of civil war soldiers wrestling about on the ground with sticks and knives. Yes, it happened, but the frequency wouldn't seem to justify toting it.
I think if a fella ( I'm not implying you) spent a few hard weekends living out of the saddle or blanket roll, without the benefit of a cot in tent with a beer cooler and a clean set of clothes, he would join the thousands who discarded their big knives
My opinion, having been thru this many times.
And I concur about the photo props, you see all sorts of items with fellas to whom they would not be common.
Patrick Pete

[PetePaolillo]

Here are some sources for your perusal. Sources are always Good:D

http://books.google.com/books?id=YOmZolJJktAC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=62UpqBawyUMC&lpg=PA25&dq=civil%20war%20sheath%20knives&lr=&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=k9wSAAAAYAAJ&dq=civil%20war%20sheath%20knives&lr=&pg=PA541#v=onepage&q=knives&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=IOyKSZKGulUC&lpg=PA66&dq=confederate%20knives&lr=&pg=PA66#v=onepage&q=confederate%20knives&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=FhK_6XS2UPoC&dq=confederate%20knives&lr=&pg=PA256#v=onepage&q=&f=false
"6th and 1th November.—The morning of the following day, to our great surprise, passed quietly, and we were enabled to take up our old line of defence at Waterloo Bridge, sending out scouts and patrols in the direction of the enemy. One of the latter was fortunate enough to capture and bring off a Yankee waggon, which gave us a good supply of Havana cigars, and contained, among other articles, a large number of fine bowie-knives. For a long time afterwards, each of us carried one of these knives in his belt, finding it extremely serviceable, not as an offensive weapon against the Yankees, but for the cutting of the very tough beef which, during the next month, formed the greater part of our rations. The bowieknife occupied a somewhat conspicuous place in the earlier annals of the war, and we were often told of Louisianians, Mississippians, and Texans who threw away their muskets in the hottest of the fight, and fell upon the enemy with their favourite weapon; but I have always regarded these stories in the same fabulous light with the stories of the bayonet conflicts to which I have before referred, and certainly I have never seen the bowie-knife put to any other than a purely pacific and innocent use."

http://books.google.com/books?id=K7LVBbfbF10C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q=&f=false

" Blacksmiths repaired ancient muskets and contrived deadly looking knives and sabers from farm implements and scraps of steel" pg 19

[JimKindred]

I don't have the document in front of me but something like 2 tenths of 1 percent of recorded wounds were inflicted by edged blades.

These type statistics come up quite often coming from documentation of wounds seen by medical personnel, what they leave out are the deaths caused by blades. These gentlemen were normally not carried back to the doctors for statistical research.

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

Also a side discussion on the mortality of bayonet wounds on teh battlefield not making it back to the hospitals to "be counted."

While there is documentation for personal rather than photographer studio massive bowie knives such as camp photographs, accounts, and even battlefield pick-ups, IMHO they are a rare minority in the CW soldiers' experience (unless one had one).

However, as I am sure many a CW lad found out, the need for a meat cleaver to butcher an ox or a hand ax to build a log cabin was not worth the bulk and weight compared to "belt" sized "bowie" camp or hunting type knives better suited for fieldcraft and mess chores.
Meaning, IMHO, if more lads would not carry a massive bowie just for "jewelry," and actually had to use one for camp or mess chores, "we" would see more "folders" (pocket knives) and at best five or six inch bladed belt knives.

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

(Remembering an N-SSA pard, Davey, who carried and used his Confederatre great-grandfather's Sheffield type bowie for his ramrod rest in competitions.)

[Hank Trent]

and at best five or six inch bladed belt knives.

That's a good point to keep in mind. A lot of the knives that they called a Bowie knife probably wouldn't be considered a Bowie knife by a lot of people today, so one needs to separate out the big D-handled broad-bladed Bowie knives from the little Sheffield bowie knives when researching things called Bowie knives in the period. It's usually possible to tell from context, but not always.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[LibertyHallVols]

This is the A-C, folks. Documentation, please!

Got stats? Cite a source.
"Have been found..." By whom, when, and where?

Props to Pete P for actually quoting a referenced source!!!!

[Old Reb]

Bowie knife linky dinky
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/BB/lnb1.html

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

For 1861:

"No. 2.

Weapons, captured at Rich Mountain Pass on July 11th by the Ind. Regts.

A great many knives of the most monstrous dimensions were found on the bodies of the dead and wounded and taken from the prisoners. The blades of most of them, which were at the recommendation of Gov. Wise manufactured out of waggon (sic) springs, measure on average a foot and half in length and from 3-4 inches in width. They would in close combat prove a most disastrous weapon, but are not likely to be used that way."

L. Johnssen, field correspondent for Harper's Weekly.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/CWbowies.jpg

Curt

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

And a lad from the 4th Michigan:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/CWBowie4thMI.jpg

Curt

[David Fox]

I've never bought into the oft-repeated assertion large side knives/cutlasses were useless encumrances to army personnel. Should a fight boil down to one protagonist getting inside the guard of another, rare as that scenerio may be, a large knife in hand would be a sight better to have than a sharp stick. Perhaps more important, they made very useful camp tools. Remember: the United States Army went on after the Civil War to the trouble of adopting a series of large-bladed personal weapons/tools for groundpounders from the 1870s through 1910. These included the bizarre wide-bladed bayonets of the 1870s with hand application, the 1880 "hunting" knife, production resuming in 1890, the Krag Bowie bayonet of 1900, and the M.1910 bolo widely used in WW I, a murderous trench weapon. WWII saw the limited issue of M1941 naval cutlasses to GIs on Guadalcanal and wider issue of machettes in the Pacific and Viet Nam. Seems to me that, for a sidearm asserted to be worse than useless, every American Army generation since 1865 has found application for large side knives or side knife-like weapons with concurrent thrusting, cutting and a chopping usefulness. In the infantry unit to which I was assigned in Viet Nam, very large cheap Bowies sent from home were a fad. We weren't issued machettes in the Mekong Delta, and these cleaver-like edged weapons popular in 1861 had multiple practical uses in 1968.

[Hank Trent]

Weapons, captured at Rich Mountain Pass on July 11th by the Ind. Regts.

Check out that bottom one. If it's drawn to scale, that's the largest push-dagger I've over seen. Is that as unusual as I think it is, or is that some kind of weapon I'm not aware of, that normally comes in that size?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

Dunno, I have wondered that for decades since first coming across that reference.

It defies push-dagger technology due to its size.

However, in some oriental martial forms of knife-fighting, that is still taught (say to the "Delta" and the "SF" type lads) there is a two handed "power assist" using the second hand to push the hilt. (It comes after one has captured the attention of a foe with the first 1-3 cuts.)

But the CW era farmer, clerk, or mechanic did not receive such esoteric and arcane into modern training- and used a knife either as best he naturally could, or perhaps might have actually been exposed to.

(On the other unrelated hand, I was taught how to "be nasty" to kill or maim with many mundane things one could just pick up- a pencil, a ballpoint pen, an umbrella, a car key, or a rolled up newspaper or magazine if my unaided body was not getting the job done.)

Soldiers improvise with what they have. The large bowie could inflict nasty and fatal wounds in its own right but also having passed into contemporary legend in the 1840's and 1850's as a Jim Bowie craze.
Sometimes crazes make sense, sometimes they did not. We are again seeing a very small rise or interest in the modern military with tomahawks, which is history repeating itself from Viet Nam.

The M1869 Trowell bayonet is another historical oddity.

Curt

[FloridaConscript]

any pioneer types have any documentation as to how frais were sharpened? I haven't done a ton of pioneer research, but I can't help but think a large side knife fashioned from a wagon spring or cleaver would be right handy in the pioneer business. I know rev war guys had faschine (sp?) knives...did that carry over to our 19th C. subjects?

side knives were being manufactored by Georgia through out the war.

http://www.oldsouthantiques.com/os1529p1.htm

[OldKingCrow]

Hallo!

Soldiers improvise with what they have. The large bowie could inflict nasty and fatal wounds in its own right but also having passed into contemporary legend in the 1840's and 1850's as a Jim Bowie craze.
Sometimes crazes make sense, sometimes they did not. We are again seeing a very small rise or interest in the modern military with tomahawks, which is history repeating itself from Viet Nam.

The M1869 Trowell bayonet is another historical oddity.

Curt

Spetsnaz Shovel.

[Union Navy]

As much as the soldier/sailor seemed to want a large knife for a variety of purposes, higher-ups seemed to expend considerable effort to keep such out of their hands. Witness the semantic somersaults that Adm. Dahlgren resorted to to get a "fighting knife" (so-called Dahlgren bowie bayonet) into the hands of sailors. He had to sell it as a bayonet for the Plymouth rifle, to which it was unsuited and usually didn't fit anyways. Made a great close-quarters weapon for boarding, though. Which also almost never happened, either.

[Jimmayo]

All three of the dug knives were found in an 1862 camp of the 57th Va. by a friend of mine. Two were in hut sites. No telling why they were left behind when the regiment broke camp.

The other one was captured at the battle of Old Men and Young Boys at Petersburg by a member of the 11th Pa. Cav. This was probably only carried to one battle.

[Lance Stifle]

Hello then brother,
a surprise to read you'd served in Vietnam, when I did my own tour as an Aussie we highly valued the American KaBar.

It was SOP to less than gently prod behind the knees of any charlies on sweep throughs post contact.
Most of us carried 7.62mm (.308) FN SLR's too long to be accurate when fitted with bayonets, so one hand on the pistol grip keeping the arc, the other using the KaBar.

They were a bloody good general purpose tool as well; I still have mine.

Wait for the surprise conclusion.
Kim Stewart

"I am with the South in death, in victory or defeat...I never owned a Negro and care nothing for them,
but these people have been my friends and have stood up to me on all occasions." Patrick Cleburne 1860.











I've never bought into the oft-repeated assertion large side knives/cutlasses were useless encumrances to army personnel. Should a fight boil down to one protagonist getting inside the guard of another, rare as that scenerio may be, a large knife in hand would be a sight better to have than a sharp stick. Perhaps more important, they made very useful camp tools. Remember: the United States Army went on after the Civil War to the trouble of adopting a series of large-bladed personal weapons/tools for groundpounders from the 1870s through 1910. These included the bizarre wide-bladed bayonets of the 1870s with hand application, the 1880 "hunting" knife, production resuming in 1890, the Krag Bowie bayonet of 1900, and the M.1910 bolo widely used in WW I, a murderous trench weapon. WWII saw the limited issue of M1941 naval cutlasses to GIs on Guadalcanal and wider issue of machettes in the Pacific and Viet Nam. Seems to me that, for a sidearm asserted to be worse than useless, every American Army generation since 1865 has found application for large side knives or side knife-like weapons with concurrent thrusting, cutting and a chopping usefulness. In the infantry unit to which I was assigned in Viet Nam, very large cheap Bowies sent from home were a fad. We weren't issued machettes in the Mekong Delta, and these cleaver-like edged weapons popular in 1861 had multiple practical uses in 1968.

[Jimmayo]

One more with no ID history.

If you count all the dug D-guards that are published in various sources they do appear to have been carried to war in numbers. How long they kept carrying them is another matter.

If you count all the fake ones on e-bay there must have been more D-Guards than there were soldiers.

[Garryowen]

Howdy gents,
I'm somewhat new to the AC (both the forum and the AC comunity), but have spent some time in Iraq, and feel some what qualifyed to to toss my thoughts in on this knife issue. When i was "Down Range", I carried a Kabar, and used it to open canned food bought from the PX (among other uses).
Now I realize thats not quite a period comment; however canned food was bought from suttlers and sent from home during the war (at least on the northern side), and there was no patent for a can opener untill after the war.... A smaller sized bowie (5 or 6 in) would not be out of place as a tool for opening these cans (providing a soldier had acess to them).
Were some soldiers in the south issued bowies at the start of the war if bayonets were in short supply?
Also, don't underestamate the intimidation factor of a person carring / wielding a large knife. These stories of soldiers throwing down there rifles must have been beliveable to some one, or the would not have gotten started then spred in the first place. Like any "big fish story" or "the huge buck that got away" the strangest tail is some time rooted in a grain of truth, although that could be a small grain ....
just some things to think about...

[lojafan]

Let's also not forget about the M1849 Ames Rifleman's knife. No, it's not a bowie knife, but is is a big knife that was issued and carried in the war.

[tsgalloway]

Here is one of the two that I own. This one is blacksmith-made. It is absolutely MASSIVE and impressive. I sure looks good, but it is way too heavy to carry around for an extended period of time.

[McKim]

Yikes...that is a beast! Here is a knife that I would like to make for myself, overall it is 12" but I would probably scale it down 2-3". Several times I have found myself in a position that a hunting type knife would have been nice to have and would be discreet to carry. The pictured knife was a Confederate knife; G_Nixon & Son Sheffield. But I have other priorities so that will have to wait.

As to having a knife for you impression, I think it should be a natural thing for ones self. Meaning, and using myself for example, I carry a pocket knife every day of my life (airports don't like that) and have since I was 5 years old, it's is normal and comfortable for me to do so.

I think that is an important part of an authentic impression. Being a tobacco chewer who was raised by a pipe smoker for example, seeing someone partake in either habit on a biannual basis gets me tickled to no end. To me they don't look very natural laying supine making a promise to a higher power that if allowed to live, they will never chew again. Or the pipe smokers drawing so hard their face looks like a toothless centurion dodging his head side to side trying to avoid pepper spray drifting into his eyes.:D

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/124rr88/Knife2.jpg

[Old Reb]

Mumblety-peg requires a knife, but in fairness, the knives should be close to equal in size. Nothing more wrong than fellows playing a fair game of mumblety-peg with regular sized knives and someone showing up with a big old Bowie or the like! Rankles me quite a bit, for truth. And then there are those that have the little dart like knifes. Ain't fair at all!. So, when I play mumblety-peg it is best that all knives of are equal size.

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

Never bring a bowie knife to a mumblepeg game.

Once Upon a Time, I was watching two Confederates who had had "too much" playing with a bottle in one hand and a bowie in the other. They were playing the version of mumblepeg that did not involve a "peg." (Seeing how close one could stick the knife to the foot of the other.)

After a bit, Player "A" threw his bowie through his own instep. He paused, looked down, pulled the knife out of his foot with a slight "shwihhh" sound, , and passed out as the blood came out of the shoe.

Curt

[Half Rations]

mumblepeg game is also not very fun when the officers come over and try to use their swords.

[David Fox]

Hummm. "Toothless centurion"? I may represent that characterization.

[yeoman]

Were they ever carried by the troops as an effective weapon on either side, at any time during the war?
Mr. Stewart-Gray, sir, while reading a bit on the Battle of New Bern North Carolina, March 14, 1862, I found this interesting.
If I may quote,
"It is important to remember that General Branch went into battle with fewer than 4,000 men, who had limited training, while Burnside's forces numbered 15,000 with experience in battle. Burnsides troops were equipped with the latest means of warfare. The troops of Branch were armed with such weapons as shotguns, old horse pistols, brass pistols, sabres, cutlasses, and home-made swords. They appeared to have been manufactured out of carving knives, meat croppers, and the like, roughly adjusted into handles of common pine wood, and in many cases fastened with wires."

This found on page 34, here http://digital.lib.ecu.edu/historyfiction/search/results.aspx?id=bbn&type=text&t=battle+of+new+bern

[Hank Trent]

Knives and knife fighting were a big part of southern and western U.S. culture in the antebellum era, and northern culture too to some extent. No doubt about that. It was considered cool in the same way that the various martial arts are today. So I think it's not really surprising that there was a lot of talk about knives, a lot of training centered around them, etc. Whether or when it was actually applied in the field also probably is similar to how much martial arts are actually applied in real-life self defense today.

A good modern book with both research and practical how-to instruction on historic Bowie knife techniques is Dwight McLemore's Bowie and Big Knife Fighting (http://www.themartialist.com/1203/mclemore.htm)(link is to a review of it). He puts on training seminars very occasionally and I've wanted to attend one but have never been at the right time and place. Bill Bagwell and James Keating are another couple of names in the Bowie knife technique world today.


Additionally he made a point of teaching his men how to defend themselves using the Bowie knife as a weapon and a shield, widely recognised by New Zealand historians as the knife being swivelled in the hand and laid along the outer length of the lower arm between the wrist and elbow to ward off blows or cuts.
It's still taught today and is an easy manouvre to perfect with practice.

My Questions.
Had such a protective manouvre been introduced earlier in America by James Bowie or someone subsequently.
Was it an intentional design feature of the Bowie knife, it being long, strong and wide bladed?

Though there's some controversy about it, the brass strip along the back of the blade, on some early Bowie knives, is thought to have been for the purpose of protecting the blade when it was used defensively, either to protect the blade from the shock of being struck by an opponent's blade since the brass would be softer, or to catch the edge of another blade in the softer metal to slow it from sliding down the knife.

That said, though...

I need to look at McLemore's book again, but it sticks in my mind that he contends that knife fighting in the early 19th century relied more heavily on sword fighting technique and thus tended toward a more open stance. Picture the fencer "en garde" with the left hand behind. For example, skim through these images (http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/styers.html) from a 1940ish instruction book on knife fighting (about halfway down), and note how non-defensive the stances are. This is the older Styers-Biddle school of knife combat, and it has a different look than the Fairbairn- Applegate style that followed (which is still old fashioned today). Note the Applegate drawings here (http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=1239), where now there's a more defensive stance, with the left hand forward of the knife.

I think the Styers-Biddle method was a direct descendant of 19th century knife fighting, which descended in turn from sword fighting. But needless to say, there wasn't one way to do it, and the population who actually fought with knives in the period probably had very little overlap with the students of the kewl knife/sword instructors in New Orleans or wherever in the period. But still, if a person in the period was actually trained in knife fighting, or was interested in it enough to actually talk about technique, I think that one can't assume that modern techniques or mindset applied backward; there really was a shift somewhere in the mid to late 20th century.

Also, again, it's worth keeping in mind that something called a Bowie knife in the period might not have a wide blade, might not have even a cross-guard (especially earlier in the antebellum era), and might not be more than six inches long in the blade. "Bowie" was not necessarily synonymous with a machette-style all-purpose hacking broad-bladed knife, though that could also be called a Bowie knife too.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Dean Lewis]

Don Troiani mentions the men of the 9th Arkansas carrying Bowie Knives at the battle of Shiloh, Tennessee in April of 1862.

"The rough-hewn Arkansans, with their motley armament of flintlocks, shotguns, and bowie knives, greeted their commander with rousing cheers. 'Men of Arkansas', [Albert Sydney] Johnston shouted, 'They say you boast of your prowess with the bowie knife. Today your wield a nobler weapon - the bayonet. Employ it well.'"
(Troiani, D. & Pohanka, B.C., Don Troiani's Civil War, Stackpole Books, 1995, p. 20)


Knowing that Jim Bowie's Knife was made in Arkansas they may have enjoyed a popularity there that was uncommonly high. However, this does seem to give at least some evidence of their being carried (and perhaps even used in order for them to have "boasted of their prowess") in battle.


Just my thoughts.

[Old Reb]

Beginning in the 1830's a number of Southern states banned Bowie type knives.

[huntdaw]

Tom,

Do you know what the reason was for that? Too many knife fights maybe?

[Old Reb]

Michael,
In the 1830's Arkansas passed a law outlawing concealed Bowie knives following a fight that broke out on the floor of the House of Representatives between two legislators resulting in one being killed by a Bowie. In 1837 Alabama put a $100 transfer tax on Bowie knives and stipulated that anyone killing someone with a knife would be charged with murder regardless of the circumstances. The Bowie was the weapon of choice because it was easily concealed, widely carried and used, and probably more reliable than a single shot pistol. Sadly, at the present in Texas it is illegal to possess a Bowie knife.

[David Fox]

Hmmm. Bowies illegal in Texas? I just Googled "Texas Bowie knife laws" and it appears CARRYING on ones person a Bowie or any knife with a blade in excess of 5.5 inches is prohibited. Mere possession of such a weapon does not appear to be illegal. This does, however, partially settle the implication of the original question posed in this thread, to wit: whether or not one should wear a large side knife as a reenactor. Answer: No, at least not at Texas reenactments!

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

It would quickly pass into a Modern Discussion but many states passed anti-bowie and dirk type knife laws in the 1880's and 1890's partially fuelled by the reaction to anarchist fears involving the new wave of European immigrants.
Many are still on the books.

Curt

[Hank Trent]

Here's a not-necessary-up-to-date summary of state knife laws, as far as what's legal at reenactments:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm

I don't know if it's up to date on Texas, but in general, the laws are similar to handgun ones: you can carry large knives openly in a lot more states than you can carry concealed. One state I went to, think it was Tennessee, actually has an exception for theatrical performances that would cover reenactments.

Period laws restricting bowie knives were popular in the antebellum period, for example see this search. (http://books.google.com/books?output=html&q=bowie+knife+intitle%3Acode+date%3A0-1865&btnG=Search+Books)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[McKim]

In addition to the usual arms of an infantryman, each man carried a long bowie knife, and a pistol at his belt. Worsham, John H. Page 38

This would have been in June 1861 leaving Richmond for Fredericksburg.

[PetePaolillo]

I just visited Bentonville this past weekend and they have one attributed to a Confederate Soldier on display there. The Collections people at the site are getting back to me as far as how it came to be part of their collection and who it belonged to (if known) etc. I can tell you this it is large at nearly 20" overall length.

[Masich]

As far as I know, the only Bowie-style knife issued from a U.S. Arsenal during the Civil War was from the cache of 1,000 M1849 Rifleman's knives at Benicia, California. Col. J. H. Carleton ordered the Infantry and Cavalry under his command to carry good sheath knives and the heavy Ames-made Rifleman's knives issued to teamsters with the California Column in 1862.

Does anyone know who makes the best repro of the 1849 Ames knife? I'd like to find one with the correct markings for an Arizona teamster impression.

[john duffer]

From THE PRIVATIONS OF A PRIVATE, Marcus B. Toney, 1st TN, 1861

" This was our first march fully equipped..........nearly all our boys had on one side a six-shooter Colt's revolver buckled around them, and on the other side was a large Damascus blade (made at a blacksmith's shop). This too had a scabbard and belt.............the first day's march, was fifteen miles........After we had trudged along some five miles in a sweltering August sun, I tried to give my six-shooter away, but could not find any one to accept it, and over in the bushes I threw it. I then unbuckled my Damascus blade, made an offer of that, but was likewise refused, and it was thrown into the bushes. "

[David Fox]

Another plug for the American military persistance of Civil War style large side knives, demonstrating their practical utility: the Woodsman's Pal. Designed just before WWII, it was widely carried in the Pacific. These "D" guard clevers weren't just tools. The example I own still retains in it's canvas scabbard a booklet detailing fighting techniques using the Woodsman's Pal in hand-to-hand with Japanese infantry. The Pal was redeliniated a survival tool in Vietnam and, I understand, is a favorite in Afghanistan with the grunts. The "D" guard fighting knife lives!

[Murph]

From THE PRIVATIONS OF A PRIVATE, Marcus B. Toney, 1st TN, 1861

" This was our first march fully equipped..........nearly all our boys had on one side a six-shooter Colt's revolver buckled around them, and on the other side was a large Damascus blade (made at a blacksmith's shop). This too had a scabbard and belt.............the first day's march, was fifteen miles........After we had trudged along some five miles in a sweltering August sun, I tried to give my six-shooter away, but could not find any one to accept it, and over in the bushes I threw it. I then unbuckled my Damascus blade, made an offer of that, but was likewise refused, and it was thrown into the bushes. "

I find it interesting that the side knives [Issued? Given? Bought?] by the 1st TN had their own belts.

[14th VA Cav]

Alot of good info. I have one of those 'Big Plate Knives' and I carried it for about 2 events and went right along with the regiment I was with at that time and dropped it. It goes along now for dressing up the public. That dispells the thought of everyone carrying them quicker than anything I can say. Just my thoughts. Thanks