Cartridge packages

[smithjub]

Does anyone know of a site that has pictures of Colt Army revolver cartridge packages and labels? I'm trying to make several reproduction packages of cartridges for a living history demo for local highschools. The demo will have several items found in an officer's kit. I thought cartridge packages would be something the kids would like, and I've made several dummy revolver cartridges to show them as well.

If anyone can help I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Foggy Bottom Jim]

If you haven't received feedback on this one yet, try this link:

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/7475/labels.html

[M.Latham]

Try this, as you did'nt specify Federal or Confederate...

~Mark Latham




Does anyone know of a site that has pictures of Colt Army revolver cartridge packages and labels? I'm trying to make several reproduction packages of cartridges for a living history demo for local highschools. The demo will have several items found in an officer's kit. I thought cartridge packages would be something the kids would like, and I've made several dummy revolver cartridges to show them as well.

If anyone can help I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

[Cfarrell]

Gents,

I've been talking with several pards and other fellers about authentic cartridge tubes here lately. I've always enjoyed making tubes, but for the nine years I've been in the hobby I've mostly made the standard blank reenactors tubes. I have made several authentic tubes though, and know how to do it. My question to you gents is how they did it? I have read many articles on "HOW TO", but thats all they do is tell me...how to. I'm interesed in finding out how it was done by those who made the tube. Did they take a 5/8 inch dowel rod and sand it down to a size of a .58 cal ball or what. I thank you for your time.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

Instructions are given in the ORDNANCE MANUAL, pages 267-268:

To Make the Cartridge.

Workmen.-- 1 master, 10 boys
Implements for each boy.-- 2 boxes to hold cylinders, 20 inches long, 8 inches wide, and 4 inches high, in the clear, made of 1/2-inch boards, without a cover: they are placed on their sides, their backs inclined against the partition in the middle of the cartridge-table, the front resting on cleats nailed to the table; 1 former, cylindrical, of hard wood, of the same diameter as the ball, 6 to 7 inches long, on end pointed, almost as much as the ball, and marked with a shallow groove 4.0 inches from the end; 1 sabot or frame, tacked to the table, to hold balls, placed at the left hand of the boy; 1 spool of thread, turning on a vertical spindle fixed in the table near the balls; 1 choking-string, made of 4 or 5 cartridge-threads twisted together, about 9 inches long, with a wooden toggle at the end,-- fastened to the edge of the table at the right hand of the boy; 1 knife-blade, 1 1/2 inch long, hooked, driven into the front of the table below and near the choke-string.
To Form the Cylinder.-- Lay the trapezoids on the table with the side perpendicular to the bases toward the workman, the broad end to the left.
Take the former in the right hand and lay it on a trapezoid, the groove in the former against the right edge of the paper, bringing the pointed end 1/3 inch from the broad end of the paper; envelop the former with the paper, turn the former and roll all the paper upon it; hold it with the left hand, and, with the choking-string in the right, take one turn around the cylinder at about 1/3 inch from the end; hold the former firmly in the left hand, and draw gently upon the choking-string, pressing at the same time with the left forefinger upon the projecting end of the cylinder, this folding it neatly down upon the end of the ball. Having choked the cylinder close (sic), carry it to the rigth side, and, with the thread in the right hand, take two half-hitches firmly around the part that has been choked; cut the thread on the knife- blade, and press the choke in a cavity in the table; place the former, with a cylinder on it, on a second trapezoid; put a ball over the end of the former; roll the paper on the former and the ball; hold the cylinder in the left hand and choke and tie it as just described for the inner cylinder; withdraw the former, pressing the cylinder with the left hand, and place it in the box.
A day's work.-- A boy can make 800 cylinders in 10 hours.

To Fill the Cylinder.

Implements.-- 1 charger, made of a cylinder of wood or brass pierced with two holes through its length, holding the exact charge of powder; a funnel attached to one end of the cylinder, and a discharge-pipe to the other. The holes in the cylinder are made to communicate and shut off, alternately, from the funnel holding the powder, and the discharge-pipe at the lower end, by a reciprocating motion given to the cylinder by the hands.
Fill the funnel with powder; insert the discharge-pipe in a cartridge, holding the charger in both hands, and turn the cylinder; the charge of powder is deposited in the cartridge: insert the pipe in the next, and turn the cylinder in the opposite direction; and continue in the same way for all the rest.
Cartridges may be filled with a copper charger made to hold the exact charge, pouring the powder by means of a small funnel which is inserted into the cartridge.
To Pinch the Cartridge.- Take the cartridge in the right hand, strike it lightly on the table to settle the powder; flatten the empty part of the cylinder, and bend it, flush with the top of the powder, at right angles to the cartridge, the oblique side of the trapezoid on top, the cartridge standing vertical on the table; fold the flattened part in the direction of its length with two folds from the exterior, meeting in the middle; bend this folded end back on itself, and strike it on the table top to set the folds.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[bluebellybugleboy]

Kurt :
thank you . I've been wondering about this for a while. i've been learning to make cartridge for a month or so now. all i'm confused about is where do I get the period paper for making the paper holders that the cartridges come in . i'm pretty much stumped here.


Rob young

[Cfarrell]

Mr. Schmidt,

I thank you for your help. Its just one of those things that has always bothered me while I was rolling my tubes. Thanks, again.

Your Pard,

[Missouri Mule]

Rob,
You might try a local newspaper to see if they have any remnents of paper they can give you. I have heard different opinions as to the authenticity so check around.

Cody,
I've heard that the cardboard on a dry cleaner's hanger is about the right size to roll cartridges.

Or another option is to contact Mike Watson of St. Louis. He makes top rail cartridges, filled or empty. Sure does save a boatload of time.

Matthew Easley
Barleycorn Boys

[bluebellybugleboy]

Mathew:
no , I have the paper . I just need help packaging the cartriges in the paper sleeve. i want to know if they're's a trick or something.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

In brief...
The Federal arsenals tended to use untreated rag paper that varied in color from off-white through pale yellowish white through light brown (the "Ordinary color" specified for the M1842 musket and M1855 rifle-musket and rifle).

In our modern era, laid and cloth fiber (rag) paper has mostly been replaced by pulp paper, which is crushed wood fiber which is then often bleached and made into rolls. Laid and rag type papers can sometimes be found at stationery shops and calligraphy shops but can be pricey for the amount of rounds one uses in a season...

Many lads go with modern "Kraft Paper or 3M Masking Paper available at many hardware stores and paint stores in small and large rolls. It is not a "too bad" of a substitute, being somewhat similar in weight and thickness, and "within" the color range of period cartridge papers (a bit darker)- but is hard and has a smooth finish compared to period papers.

Continuing from the ORDNANCE MANUAL....

To Bundle Cartridges.

Utensils.--1 box without ends or top: width equal to 5 times the diameter of the ball, height equal to twice the diameter, and length that of the cartridge. It is tacked to the table, the sides parallel to and near the edge of the table.
Put a wrapper in the box, the long side perpendicular to the edge of the table, the middle of the paper in the middle of the box; place, parallel to the sides of the box, two tiers of cartridges of 5 each, the balls alternating; bring the short ends of the paper together, and fold them twice close down to the cartridges; insert a package of caps in the end of the bundle next to the ends of the lower tier; fold the wrapper on the ends, and tie the bundle, first in the direction of the length, then its breadth, with the twine fastened in a single bow-knot. The wrappers are of different colors, to distinguish the cartridges for the different arms.

Cases for Percussion Caps-- These are rolled on a former, .54 inch in diameter, choked at one end and tied. Twelve caps are put in, and the case is closed by twisting the open end of the case.

The Manual speaks to a bundling box that I call a "female system." Some lads, including myself, favor an alternate method using a "male system" that consists of a solid wooden block the size of the bundle's interior dimensions, with a lag bolt for a handle on one side. Rather than construct a wrapper inside of an open "box," the block is like wrapping a Christmas present box, and then inserting the tiers of cartridges and cap tube- which I like better (although I have used both).

If you are having problems, please free free to e-mail me off-forum.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[tomarch]

Cody: I have been looking thru my collection since you posted. I think I have the info you ned. It's "Instructions for Manufacturing and Bundeling Paper Cartridges" It was written by Dom Dal Bello in 1995 for the use of the Army of the Pacific. As usual, Dom did through research. \The article uses the information in the Ordnance Manual as well as good illustrations for making jigs for rolling and bundeling. I have an extra copy which I would be happy to mail to you.E-mail me

Tom Smith :D

[Bill]

The "Reports of Experiments with Small Arms" dated 1856 has excellent instructions for making cartridges using three pieces of paper rather then two. The advantage of this system, if you are planning to use these cartridges for live firing, is the third paper makes a separate container, called the cylinder case, that keeps the powder away from the lubricated bullet

[Clark Badgett]

I use newsprint, it is within the correct color range, easy for my teeth to tear, and unless I get stupid and overly rough with it during manufacture it holds up well enough to make very good looking cartridges and the best part, it can be had for near nothing from newspaper offices, as they throw out the ends of the rolls. I even have some nice thin brown paper around here somewhere.

[GeraldTodd]

I know I'm a month or two late, but for the benifit of others...

The Horse Soldier website often has decent images of items like cartridge packages. http://www.horsesoldier.com

[3rdARboy]

I called the number listed for Cartridges Unlimited and it was the wrong number(314-664-4332). I then called the operator and asked for Cartridges Unlimited and then Mike Watson. Still I can't find him. Does anyone know how I can contact him?
Lane Reeder
Co.E, 3rd Arkansas Infantry
Texas Brigade

[markj]

Hi Lane,

I found this info on the 10th Texas site; however, I can't vouch for it:

Tom Watson
Cartridges Unlimited
[Authentic Cartridges]
Excellent Copies
217 Everest Dr.
Fenton, MO 63116
636-349-0460

Good luck!

Mark Jaeger

[Missouri Mule]

Contact me off line (via email) and I'll get you his info. He's recently moved. I'd give it to you now but I'm at work and I don't have it available at this moment.

email: makihan@nothnbut.net

[MarionRifles]

Mr.Watson can be reached at 314-352-0871,but try to call him around 10 am Missouri time when he opens for business.He gets a lot of phone orders!

[Corporal Jay]

I will see him next weekend so I will let him know that he is a wanted man and I will verify his info.

[Jonah Barleycorn]

Sirs,

The Current contact info for Mike Watson and Cartridges Unlimited is:


Mike Watson
Cartridges Unlimited
4656 Newport
St. Louis, MO 63116
314-352-0871

Regards, etc., etc.


Bully,

[Skeet]

What we do in my unit is make are own. We have the pattern and the paper. We also made up the dowel rods. Now, this is a timely process! We also have the stampings for the bundles, too. Cpl Dan Morgan, 10th VA (IVR)

[3rdARboy]

Skeet, could you get me the pattern for the tubes somehow maybe e-mail? What paper do you use and how do you make the dowel rods?
Lane Reeder
Co. E, 3rd Arkansas Infantry
Texas Brigade

[Bill Cross]

We have the pattern and the paper. We also made up the dowel rods.

No offense, but to be sure of the proper dimensions, etc. there's not better resource than The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium, including instructions for making rolling tubes and arsenal packs. It should be noted, too, that for Federal packs, evidence seems to indicate that only the St. Louis Armory continued the practice of marking them after the Early War period, or at least this is what the references I have seen indicate, despite the many reproduction labels available including from Mr. Watson.

[DukeRPSC]

Muzzle Blasts, Official Publication of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association, Vol. 64-No. 2 October 2002 Page 65 "The Enfield Rifle Musket and its Complex Paper Cartridge"
The above article details recreating the Enfield cartridge in painstaking detail. I have made some myself. Given the time involved, I'm not entirely sure I can bring myself to fire them. :cry_smile

http://www.nmlra.org/

Hope this helps.

[27VA]

Greetings,

Any suggestions about how to pack and wrap .58-cal ammunition in the "packs of ten"? Also is there a site to down load some authentic labels.
EOG (confed) has a great picture of an original on page 39, which I am going to use for guideline. I think the caps are also wrapped in the package too? Is that hemp twine? White wrapper?
Need to make these up for RECON, any others who are going have any suggestions?



S. Stern
27VA
ssterndo@netscape.net

Hallo Herr Stern: It is an AC Forum Rule that you use your full name on your posts. Thank you. CHS, Moderator

[markmason]

Greetings,

Any suggestions about how to pack and wrap .58-cal ammunition in the "packs of ten"? Also is there a site to down load some authentic labels.
EOG (confed) has a great picture of an original on page 39, which I am going to use for guideline. I think the caps are also wrapped in the package too? Is that hemp twine? White wrapper?
Need to make these up for RECON, any others who are going have any suggestions?

S. Stern
27VA
ssterndo@netscape.net

I suggest to you geting a copy of the Columbia Rifles Research Compendium A very good article on the subject of making and bundling cartridges. Contact the Columbia Rifles for a copy. I believe Joe Hoffman of Jersey Skillet Licker may have a copy as well.

[Jefferson Guards]

This might have some of the information that you seek:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1555&highlight=cartridge+bundles

[GaReb52nd]

27thVa,

I sent you an email with labels I have made using Word and the directions on how to make the wrappers. Hope it helps.

[27VA]

Thanks for the assistance

S. Stern
27VA

[Jimmayo]

Have a picture of a torn open pack of cartridges in a tin on the following page. It is at the bottom. May be some help.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/relics.html

[Jonah Barleycorn]

Thanks for the assistance

S. Stern
27VA

Mr. Stern ( I presume???),

Please make a point of signing your FULL name to your posts. This means your first name as well. Reading, understanding, and following the forum rules will make for a better experience as well as to keep the moderators off your back. :wink_smil

[bluebellybugleboy]

Curt: i havn't until now gotten around to trying to make those bundle's . I tried it the way you show and it took a couple of tries but i finally got the hang of it thanks for all the help . I have a friend that is trying to make period labels for the bundle's thanks alot.

Rob young

[10TnVI]

Gents,

I've been talking with several pards and other fellers about authentic cartridge tubes here lately. I've always enjoyed making tubes, but for the nine years I've been in the hobby I've mostly made the standard blank reenactors tubes. I have made several authentic tubes though, and know how to do it. My question to you gents is how they did it? I have read many articles on "HOW TO", but thats all they do is tell me...how to. I'm interesed in finding out how it was done by those who made the tube. Did they take a 5/8 inch dowel rod and sand it down to a size of a .58 cal ball or what. I thank you for your time.

Cody- if by they you mean the period makers, they had the former rods turned to proper caliber to begin with by the manufactury that supplied them.
If your talking about how to make a former rod for your own use, you can either start with a 5/8 dowel and sand it down or start with a 1/2 inch and build it up. I used plain masking tape rolled around a 1/2 inch dowel until it miked at .575. To make the proper tapered tip I epoxied a correct size minieball to the end of the rod instead of trying to carve it to shape.

[Skeet]

We were rolling cartridges this weekend and had an assembly line going. I guy in our unit has the device to wrap the cartridges into bundles, we even have different stamps for the aresenals. There is a receipe to soak the bundling paper in, I believe it is beeswax and linseed oil? Anyone else heard of this? Cpl Dan Morgan 10thVA (IVR)

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

The U.S. Ordnance Manual, 1st Edition (1841) and 2nd Edition (1849) specified that rounds were to be bundled in waterproof paper.

The U.S. Ordnance Manual, 3rd Edition (1861) does not specify water-proofing.

However, it does appear on some pistol, carbine, and commercial ammunition.

The 1849 Manual states:

To waterproof 10 lbs. of paper, the following recipe is used:

Beeswax: 1.3 lbs, Spirits of Turpentine: 1.3 gals, Linseed oil: 0.1 gal.

The 1841 Manual states:

4 lbs, 2 gallons, and 1 gill.


"All the ingredients should be pure and of the best quality. Heat them together in a copper or earthen vessel, over a gentle fire, in a water bath, until they are well mixed. The paper is then immersed and allowed to dry before using it to wrap bundles."

Off the top of my head, without checking, the 1863 Confederate Ordnance Manual does not mention water-proofing either (it being essentially a copy of the U.S. Manual). But I will defer to our resident CS lads on that one...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Nor'easter]

I had spent many cold days in trial and error out in my barn teaching myself how to make better cartridges. Thankfully, someone had sent me illustrations from an Ordnance Manual.
The question I would ask is whether or not there is someone with the capability who might be willing to do a photographic step by step of cartridge & wrapper construction including detailed measurements to post here. I think my own are alright, but they could probably be a lot better.
Thoughts?

[Gerkin]

Gentlemen,

First, I have searched and searched. From the pictures I have seen of original packages, they all apear to have been stamped, rather than having a seperate label put on. Is this just my eyes?

Secondly, I am wanting to make some good St. Louis Arsenal Cartridges, and was wondering if anyone has those labels that they could email to me.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

Thomas' paperback and hardbound books are the "bibles" for cartridge information.

However, various related topics and resources can be found in the SEARCH feature under "labels."

With the exception of St. Louis, bundle labels were dropped by the Feds in the first year of the War. Arsenal bundles had had applied labels.

Confederate arsenals and laboratories appear to have used a mix of applied labels, labels printed on the bundle papers, and ink stamps.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[TeamsterPhil]

Bob Braun of the 33rd Wisc. wrote a nice article, titled "Designer Labels," on St. Louis Arsenal cartridge labels that was copyrighted in 1994. This article contains his rendition of a St. Louis label. I'd imagine that geting in touch with him would be worth your while.

Phil Campbell

[MoFed]

I believe that Mike Watson, Cartridges Unlimited, carries these.

Charles D. Hoskins

[Gerkin]

Thank you all.

[Mike N]

Apologies as I know the "how do I make correct cartridges?" question has been asked many times before. I've used the "search" function but reviewing the articles and previous threads still leaves me scratching my head as all the information I've found deals with cartridges for muzzle loading rifles.

I've got a (Zimmerman de-farbed) repro 1859 Sharps Carbine that I'd like to make cartridges for. I'd also like to "live fire" this gun so I'd appreciate information or sources of information for making "live" as well as "blank" cartridges. Diagrams would be especially helpful.

I've made .44 and .36 caliber revolver blanks but don't know the correct dimensions or procedures for making the carbine cartridges. I know the originals were made from both paper and linen and would like to hear anyone's experience with different materials and methods. Feel free to PM me if you would rather not re-hash this on the forum.

Thanks in advance.

Mike Nugent

[Cheyenne]

Not helpful, but I'm curious if the defarbing of your Sharps included a facsimile of the lawrence Priming system?

Harvey Lane
Pvt. , Co.K, 6th Texas Infantry

[GeraldTodd]

I attached a package label and package and cartridge patterns for the fastest, cleanest method I know...

The cartridge is rolled on a 1/2" tube from the large end toward the small end with a 1/2" hanging off the right end of the tube. That bit is twisted into a pig-tail and pushed into the end of the tube. The cartride tube is slid off - no glue, no fuss. It does require developing a feel for it so you don't over twist or tear the end, but once you've got it you can roll hundreds of tube while watching the other tube. BTW-The paper lady tubes are made exactly the same way only they have 3 finished layers and mine have 2. I also use ordinary 20pd paper - lighter stuff crushes instead of cutting when the breech is closed.

Drop in 60 grains of 2 or 3F powder and fold the tail the way you would a musket cartridge - flatten, fold sides into thirds, fold back, then forward again - the key is to keep the cartridge round and tight.

The package is not made as the originals, instead it's made to be expendable. I use tape or printer labels to hold it together. It filled with 10 cartridges, a packet of 12 caps and wrapped in the wrapper with the label centered on one face. This is the only place glue comes into play.

Longer tubes will allow for a wad or 30/40 grains of Cream of Wheat to lengthen the cartridge and make it easier to load without inadvertantly pushing it in to the breech too far.

One of our boys uses hair curling papers and makes tail-less rounds, and there's lots of other approaches all of which are more labor intensive that that described above.

[Minieball577]

I'd also like to "live fire" this gun so I'd appreciate information or sources of information for making "live" as well as "blank" cartridges. Diagrams would be especially helpful.



Looks like the blank rounds are taken care of. Attached is an article that I found useful for making live ammunition.

[wavey1us]

Looks like the blank rounds are taken care of. Attached is an article that I found useful for making live ammunition.


Good info on the Sharp cartridge's. Instead of using tissue paper on the breech side of the cartridge I use cig rolling paper. To me, it is a little more flammable and provides better ignition. Just my 1 1/2 cents worth

[Minieball577]

Good info on the Sharp cartridge's. Instead of using tissue paper on the breech side of the cartridge I use cig rolling paper. To me, it is a little more flammable and provides better ignition. Just my 1 1/2 cents worth

A lot of people use cigarette paper. i have used tissue paper with great results. I bought it from Meijer (Wallmart, K-mArt) etc in the gift and card section. You can buy all of the tissue paper you may ever need for about a buck thirty...

[Mike N]

Thanks to all for some great information. I think I've got a good handle on it now.

Mike Nugent

[Alabama Yankee]

Hair Curler paper works well for making blanks. They are already pre-cut and come in a box of 1,000 for about $1.50. You roll it around a 1/2 inch dowel, twist one end closed, fill with 60 grains, then twist the other end.

To make my live rounds, I start by cutting a piece of cotton muslin 1.5 inches by 3 inches.

I cut a 1 inch by 1 inch square piece of cigarette paper.

Take a 1.4 inch dowel and place the cigarette paper over the end, folding the edges over the dowel.

Run a glue stick down 2 joining sides of the piece of cotton muslin.

Roll the cotton muslin around the dowel so that the long end with the glue on it glues itself to the cigarette paper and the short end with glue on it glues the tube closed.

Fill tube with 60 grains of powder.

Put a sharps ringtail minie ball in the hole and compact powder. You may find it beneficial to put the cotton tube in a brass pipe so that the powder doesn't bulge out the round. Then, using a piece of 100% cotton thread, tie a knot around the tube, sinching the string into the ringtail of the bullet. Wrap the string around to the other side of the bullet and tie another knot. And now you're ready to lube the bullet and shoot.

E-mail me if you want some pictures.

-Ryan Dupree
dupreer@hiwaay.net

[amazingkenneth]

Hello All,
I am looking for copies of labels for .69 cal round ball and standard .69cal.
I have a friend that is trying to pick some up but is there anyone or place that I may have them e-mailed or downloaded?

Thanks,
K.J. Reihl

[1stMaine]

Comrade,

Again, I would refer you to the "search" tab in the task bar above this forum. A simple search with the words cartridge label in quotation marks revealed an extant thread discussing this same request.
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/search.php?searchid=126894
Amazing, Kenneth, what searchs can come up with here..... :eek:
respects,

[Pvt. Myers]

This subject has been discussed before except reference the color of the paper. Modern picture evidence suggests the paper used to roll tubes and to pack them was the same color. This appears to be a light tan or yellow, but this could be due to aging and discoloration of the product.

My question is this: was the paper used back then white, off-white, or light tan? I have not been able to find this information out and would appreciate any help from you all regarding this.

Thanks in advance,

Ron Myers
1st US Infantry Co. D

[amazingkenneth]

Hello Ron,
I have looked into this as well. The best for rounds that I have found is blank news print. I spoke to a few folk about paper and they stated that from time to time white paper was found around but not in round making. White paper was harder to make. It would be my thinking that the paper would be not white but more as you said an off white or lite tan/yellow. Also note the labels on the packs, the wrapper paper and the round are the same color but the labels are a different color (Note: Frankford Arsenal) the label is slightly different. I think that the oils and dirt from the makers hands and the years of age changed the colors. I hope that this helped.

Your Servant,
K.J. Reihl

[Pvt. Myers]

Hello Ron,
I have looked into this as well. The best for rounds that I have found is blank news print. I spoke to a few folk about paper and they stated that from time to time white paper was found around but not in round making. White paper was harder to make. It would be my thinking that the paper would be not white but more as you said an off white or lite tan/yellow. Also note the labels on the packs, the wrapper paper and the round are the same color but the labels are a different color (Note: Frankford Arsenal) the label is slightly different. I think that the oils and dirt from the makers hands and the years of age changed the colors. I hope that this helped.

Your Servant,
K.J. Reihl


Kenneth, thanks for the quick reply!

I think the newsprint idea is a good one. I'll try to find some off-white and use it.

Thanks again!

Ron Myers
1st US Infantry Co. D

[BobSullivanPress]

The short answer is, yes.

All paper made in the 1860's was cloth-based paper. The wood pulp process had not been perfected yet.

Since the paper was fiber based, the relative whiteness of the paper was based on how much bleaching was done to the fiber before the paper was made. However, bright white paper is a relatively new thing.

Wood pulp paper fades and yellows because of the acid content in the wood pulp. Cloth-based paper is almost (almost) fade free. Unless it is subject to extreme light abuse, the paper fades very little, if at all. So off-white paper started that way, because they used less bleaching in the processing, because it wasn't going to be used for important stuff.

The closest match to my original cartridge, and other cartridges I've seen (which come to about 12 compared to the several billion made) is a type of deli paper that my sandwiches are wrapped in occasionally. The paper is very close to standard newsprint, but has such a smooth finish that it appears to shine.

Some original documents in the Museum of the Confederacy are printed on paper that looks exactly like the brown shopping bags that you used to get from the grocery store (paper, not plastic). But when you handle the document, it's not thick like those bags at all, but has the same feel as regular paper.

So I've seen paper that's almost white, tan, brown, pink, blue, green, and many shades in between.

[JimConley]

[QUOTE=Pvt. Myers]Kenneth, thanks for the quick reply!

I think the newsprint idea is a good one. I'll try to find some off-white and use it.

Yeah, blank newsprint is the way to go in my opinion. It is not "white" and I'm told it may be the closest paper as far as thickness to original paper used for rounds. Here in Richmond, KY we have a small newspaper that is always more than happy for me take extra rolls of paper off their hands. I suggest contacting a local paper and conjure some up.

[1stMaine]

Comrade Sullivan,

I was just about to PM you to respond to this thread, but here you are! Yup, I have several original documents printed on a light blue paper. It's still very clean and the only damage is where they were folded.
respects,

[justthemiller]

Interestingly enough the Federal ordinance manuals specified buff colored paper in the manufacture of cartridges. I say this because later on when many of the Federal Arsenals that received Williams patent rounds used white paper to wrap them in addition to blue and red paper in order that they be more readily identified. Also, according to the Thomas brothers series of publications (i.e. Roundball to Rimfire etc.) stated that in the beginning of the war the various Federal Arsenals inked/printed their labels directly onto the bundle wrapper paper. With the seeming exception of the St. Louis arsenal this practice seems to have gone away once the war was going on in ernest. Most cartridge bundles were done up in plain paper but there is one colored example existing (1861 dated I believe and in .58 caliber) and that is from the Federal Watervliet Arsenal and that one is in light blue paper! Take care.

[markj]

I have used 3M "masking paper" (available at any well stocked hardware store) with good results. This also seems to be quite close in both color and weight to original wrappers.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, while at the National Archives I discovered an original Augusta Arsenal .54 Lorenz cartridge wrapper slipped in between the pages of a 32nd Tennessee (AoT) company order book--the back of it had been used by a First Sergeant as scratch paper and he had stuck it into the order book where it remains to this day.

The consistency of the paper was medium-weight--almost like light shopping bag paper. The color was a medium- to medium-dark brown. I have attached a scan of the original wrapper. It is, unfortunately, in black and white (NARA didn't have color copiers) but it still gives you a rough idea of the color and "laid" quality of the paper.

My suggestion is to try the "masking paper"--in my experience, newsprint neither comes in the right color nor in the right "weight"--it tears too easily. Perhaps others will have had different experiences though...

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[billwatson]

The newsprint works for our purposes in the field. It simply wouldn't do for some kind of display like we sometimes are called to set up in a library case window or whatever, because once sunlight hits the newsprint, it will yellow within a day and disintegrate to the touch within three.

This of course makes it even more perfect for use in the field, since it's never going to see sunlight until we're ready to use it, after which the faster it disintegrates the better.

If you've got a little newspaper in the area, check with them for unused end rolls off the presses. They'll either give them away or charge a very small fee. You might also ask to be present at the very start of the night's press run -- the first few copies of the paper, up to maybe 40 or 50 of them, coming off the press are absolutely blank until they engage the mats. The advantage of this is you already have sheets of newsprint in several thicknesses, so you can take your template, mark your cartridge, and cut them off eight or so at a time instead of one at a time. I use a paper cutter. It gets used for other stuff around our home office, but they're cheap now and they save an enormous amount of time for a job like this.

Remember to store the unused newsprint away from sunlight. It will last a long time so long as there's no sunlight. I've seen three-year-old rolls that got pushed in a corner and forgotten for that long put on a press with no trouble.

Finally -- if you don't like the "weight" of the paper, ask them what else they've got. The little papers, especially -- under 30,000 or so -- tend to also do commercial printing, and they have a variety of papers in a variety of thicknesses and finishes to do those jobs. What you probably won't find at a newspaper, though, is the exactly perfect stuff Bob Sullivan describes. That's a specialty product for food wraps. My guess is the shiny finish is some kind of kaolin coating, which is also used on some magazine papers to get a less porous surface than newsprint.

Hope that helps.

[marlin teat]

I believe (as a former restaurant-owner) the deli paper referred to is unbleached parchment paper. This can be found in the baking section of many kitchen supplies store. The paper has about the same thickness as newsprint, is light brown in color, and has the sheen on one side.

If it's not what you're looking for, it's great for wrapping rations!

[Pvt. Myers]

I believe (as a former restaurant-owner) the deli paper referred to is unbleached parchment paper. This can be found in the baking section of many kitchen supplies store. The paper has about the same thickness as newsprint, is light brown in color, and has the sheen on one side.

If it's not what you're looking for, it's great for wrapping rations!


Thanks pards! I've ordered both newsprint and unbleached parchment paper and will try both.

Your most obedient servant,

Ron Myers
1st US Infantry Co. D

[ChrisM(armyguy)]

another type of paper that is very close to original catridge paper and packing paper is the 3m craft paper. it is sold in large rolls at walmart or at any office supply store. if you want further information on this, there is a good article on the subject in the columbia rifle's research compendium on the subject of reproduction cartridges(in specific the st louis arsenal) Hope this helps.



Chris mattingly
still waiting for word on fun in the sun

[IowaYank]

Hello. I have several questions here concerning ammunition and arsenal packs.

My first one is concerning Sharps cartridges. I am currently trying to make more authentic cartridges for my sharps. I figure in my infantry impression I tie all of my cartridges, why not have extremely authentic cartridges for my cavalry impression?? Looking through examples of original sharps cartridges from books in my very limited library, I have seen no paper sharps cartridges with a tail. One end is rounded off and the other has the bullet. How can I reproduce this??? I can get the rounded off section made easily with a hollow tube, but how should I close off the top where the bullet should be without putting a tail on the cartridge??

My second question is for pistol cartridge arsenal packs. I know they were issued in both the pasteboard and paper wrapped arsenal pack(like infantry rounds were wrapped), but it seems to me the pasteboard type was much more common. In fact, I dont know if I have personally seem the paper wrapped arsenal packs for pistol, but I have heard from others more knowledgeable than myself that they exist. Right now the paper wrapped type is what I am using for my arsenal packs, but I would rather use pasteboard packs. Does anyone know of a source for those type of pasteboard boxes suiteable for the packs??? And does anyone know of a source for pack labels for the .44 army revolver?? I know sullivan press makes pistol labels but they are for the .36 navy revolver.

Thank you for your time.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Dan,
The problem with an authentic Sharps cartridge is the bullet. Paper, skin or linen cartridge tubes were filled with powder then had a bullet inserted into the open end and tied on. There is just no good way to safely duplicate this.
When I make my cartridges for the Sharps, I simply twist the open end and tightly close it. If someone has a manner to safely replicate the appearance of the bullet that is 100% safe, then I too am open to the suggestion.
As for .44 caliber labels, I've attached one I copied from an original.
Dave Myrick

[neocelt]

Gents,

"The problem with an authentic Sharps cartridge is the bullet. Paper, skin or linen cartridge tubes were filled with powder then had a bullet inserted into the open end and tied on. There is just no good way to safely duplicate this." Au contraire!

Years ago, my unit tackled this problem and came up with a method of molding Sharps ringtail bullets using a type of foam that's similar to insulating foam (although that's not what it was, as this stuff came in cans and was a two-part system--a base and a catalyst). The resulting "bullets" had a hard outer skin, but only required 10 lbs. of pressure to crush (you could actually do it by pinching them between thumb and forefinger really hard). They simply turned to dust when fired, leaving no more fouling than the powder itself. We painted them to look like lead and made up cartridges using nitrated "flash paper" (you can make this yourself). The result was a pretty authentic-looking cartridge with an exposed bullet--I know they caused serious consternation with inspecting officers (that is, until we dropped one on their palm...)!

Good luck!

[hardeeflag]

Nick,

Do you have any more details on these cartridges? Sharps were carried by the Federal forces in my area. It would be nice to create a nice sharps cartidge for displays and events.

[IowaYank]

Nick, are you referring to "Great Stuff"??? It comes in a can and is yellowish/orange. It sprays out a semi-liquid form and expands and hardens as it drys.Never thought of that before. Are you just spraying that into a sharps ringtail bullet mold???Sounds like a great idea as long as they truely do completely dissinagrate.

Anyone have any leads on pasteboard boxes for the pistol rounds???

Thanks

[IowaYank]

Nick, One problem I thought of, if you are using the same "Great Stuff" that I am thinking of, it takes several hours to set and harden up. Is this the same foam you are using? I know there are several other brands out there, maybe others have a shorter hardening time?? Seems like it would take forever to make any number of bullets if it is going to take several hours for each individual bullet to set up. Plus, I know great stuff can harden up in the can if you dont use it all in a timely manner.

Trying to clarifiy a few things.
Thanks

[neocelt]

Sorry guys, but this was about 20 years ago, and I simply can't recall the details. What I CAN tell you is that the foam was NOT the canned foam insulation material ("Great Stuff" being one brand)--more like the foam used to make surfboard blanks. Another dude in the unit did the research and procurement of the foam. All I know is that he got it from an industrial supply house in L.A. and it came in generic, unmarked cans (like paint cans). As I said, it was a two-part system, and you had to work fast because once you added the catalyst, the liquid foamed up to many times its original volume and began to set up almost immediately. It only took about a drop for each bullet and we only had a single cavity mold--slow, messy business I can assure you, but we thought the results were well worth the effort. If I were to do it again, I'd surely invest in several gang molds! I do recall that this supplier had foam with different densities and "skin" hardness factors; indeed, it was the supplier who rated the "crushing factor" of the skin of this particular foam at 10 pounds. We settled on this as a good working hardness for our project, as we needed a skin that was hard enough to withstand normal handling and cartridge box jostling, but would still be assured to turn to harmless dust when the weapon was fired. We did LOTS of test-firing to verify that no particles of any kind left the muzzle. You'll have to do your own homework on this one I'm afraid... I would forewarn you to be sure that the foam you use will crush to dust under heat and pressure and not become a glob of burning plastic goo!

If someone pursues this project, I trust he will share his odyssey with the rest of us. Incidentally, these "bullets" might also be useful in manufacturing the British Enfield cartridges (with the inverted bullet). Some enterprising individual, unit or sutler could easily package these bullets with the flash paper, a package wrapper with label, and instructions for making and packaging the cartridges to help subsidize the cost of the operation. Hmmmmm...

Again, bon chance mes amis!

[IowaYank]

Anyone else have any ideas about the foam??? I would really like to try this.

Thanks

[Mike Nickerson]

It sounds like the two part foam used in boats for flotation. It comes in two equal size cans in liquid form. It expands shortly after being mixed. It could be poured into bullet molds if some form of non-stick coating was applied (car wax might work) to keep the foam from sticking to the mold. It expands by a better than 25:1 ratio, so as Nick said, just a few drops per bullet would get the job done.

The two part flotation foam is available at any large marine supply store.

Mike Nickerson

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Twice as many CW era Sharps cartridges were made by Federal arsenals versus purchase from private makers- so they come in some "variations."
In brief and to over-generalize, there are nitrated paper and nitrated linen cartridge papers, as well as a several styles of both "ring tail" and the more common cast or pressed non ring tail bullets. (Plus some odd collodion covered cartridge types instead of paper or linen cases). Previous to the CW, the army cartridges were tied paper ones and refered to in period Ordnance writings as the "Old Model" cartridge.
As shared, some of the cartridges with "ring tails" were secured with cord, but the more common arsenal method used small devices (called cartridge chokers) that "crimped" the top of the cartridge into a groove in the bullet.
And as shared, some had arsenal made folded tails, but most had a paper case with an inserted paper base, or linen case with an inserted paper base.

Once can use nitrate dpaper as well as nitrated fine linen, and using a punch, insert and glue linen as well as paper "disks" or inserted squares to a rolled cartridge body. (I have also used this method for Smith carbines).
(One problem with modern pulp paper is that it tears more easily that CW period "rag" paper, and makes a more fragile cartridge. Some lads use modern cigarette paper, hair curling papers, and magicians' flash paper instead, and weigh the fragility against the risk of smouldering paper remains in their breech, etc.,)
And in the absence of a Sharps' "cartridge choker," simply glue the edge of the cartridge body to the bullet.

In 1860 Sharps said:

DIRECTIONS FOR MAKING BALL CARTRIDGES

Cartridge paper or linen cloth, cu tin strips on one and three-eighth inches for the Army size ball, and two inches for the 60 and 90 ball, and of length sufficient to wind twice around the larger end of the cartridge stick and form a cylinder, securing the end with gluten or paste, withdraw the stick, place a piece of bank-note paper or gauze three-fourths of an inch square on the reverse end of the stick, form it over the end, apply the gluten or paste to the part that overlies the circumference of the stick, and insert in the cylinder, forcing it to the rear end and withdraw the stick. When the cylinder is dry, charge with sixty grains of powder and insert the rear end of the ball to the ring thereon, moistened with the adhesive preparation, and choke the cloth or paper into the ring of the ball.

Perhaps oddly enough, the 1861 Ordnance Manual describes the Sharps carbine cartridge as being made with a paper case from a trapezoid with height 3 inches, long base 3.25 inches, short base 2.25 inches an dwith a smaller separate powder tube. Whether the bullet was tied or glued or crimped to the cartridge body, it needed to be FOLDED closed. At any rate, the Manual was very rarely followed...

For talks and presentations, one can make "authentic" looking (if one does not wish to make "actual" live Sharps rounds) using bullets cast from Sharps moulds that various companies make, and make them inert by using ground charcoal or better yet model railroad ballast (that looks very clsoe to FF powder).

For reenacting, most lads I know do not care to invest large amounts of time and effort into "more authentic" Sharps cartridges and simply replace the length that would be the bullet with a longer cartridge body fileld with corm meal or Cream of Wheat to take of the space in the chamber that would have been occupied by a live bullet.

And I won't tell the story of a friend who cast bullets in wax and painted them- figuring the heat of the firing would turn the wax to liquid and vaporize it in the barrel. The first time out, at a parade, he loaded one and aimed at an overhead street light. The wax bullet shattered the glass, and sprinkled glass down on the marchers. He did not try it again...

Curt
NM1859 Sharps Rifle user

[IowaYank]

This may be turning into more work than it is actually worth, but I will keep trying for a while longer. Does anyone know if the boat flotation foam will dissinagrate when fired?? Looking at the foam on websites it seems to me as if they wont. Several sites say they will withstand 40 psi. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks

[neocelt]

Dan,

You're the one who said you wanted "to make more authentic cartridges for my sharps". Did you think it would be easy? So you've done a cursory internet search and come up with the wrong foam. I've already told you that the foam comes in varying density and "skin" hardness, so perhaps you'll have to look a little further. And once you've located the appropriate foam, you'll have to invest some time, money and effort in the project. Whether this is "more work than it is actually worth" is up to you. In my experience, the quality of one's impression correlates directly to the amount of work he invests in it. Of course, your mileage may vary...

Cheers,

[IowaYank]

Nick, your right about that. I am gonna keep working on this project. I was just getting a little frustrated with it last night. Sometimes it is best just to walk away and come back to something a little later. Will post any findings I come up with.
Thanks

[DaveGink]

It probably would not be hard once the right foam recipe is found to make a split mold out of latex rubber mold material and mass produce these to some degree. Might even be a good retail product.

[jpbab]

I use florists foam or cream of wheat. It's legal in most organizations for pistols so why not other weapons. I took a thin gauge piece of steel/tin and wrapped it around a AA battery. Once it wraps tightly around the battery you can push it throught the florists foam, pull it out, push the head of a 10 penny nail through the tube and make a replica "bullet" that is 100% legal in almost all safety regulations for reenactments I have read.



Dan,
The problem with an authentic Sharps cartridge is the bullet. Paper, skin or linen cartridge tubes were filled with powder then had a bullet inserted into the open end and tied on. There is just no good way to safely duplicate this.
When I make my cartridges for the Sharps, I simply twist the open end and tightly close it. If someone has a manner to safely replicate the appearance of the bullet that is 100% safe, then I too am open to the suggestion.
As for .44 caliber labels, I've attached one I copied from an original.
Dave Myrick

[jpbab]

And I won't tell the story of a friend who cast bullets in wax and painted them- figuring the heat of the firing would turn the wax to liquid and vaporize it in the barrel. The first time out, at a parade, he loaded one and aimed at an overhead street light. The wax bullet shattered the glass, and sprinkled glass down on the marchers. He did not try it again...

It's unbelieveable that some people will live fire something in a crowd that they have never test fired.

My god...first rule of thumb, never do live what you should first practice in a safe place.

[tater]

I have been reading up on cartrage labels, and stumbled upon an article about the use of "self contained" cartrages. apparantly they were three types of them, the most prominant being a paper tube with a mine ball attached on top, with the whole thing being coated in colloidon( a compound made by dissolving nitrocellulose in ether) Ive been experimenting with the design with extremely limited success. is there anyone who has done this, tell me how to get it to work. also, does anyone know of a place for bundle labels for said ammo.

thanks all.

[sauguszouave]

Tyler,

I assume you are looking for rifle-musket cartridges, not pistol or carbine cartridges. You can find info and photos in Dean Thomas' "Round Ball to Rimfire, Part One." There is a color photo of a box of Johnson & Dow waterproof combustible cartridges on the cover and a larger b&w photo inside. The color photo is available on the Thomas Publications website at

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/wrappers_primer.htm

about half way down the page. Click on it to get an enlarged image.

I hope you aren't experimenting with nitrocellulose and ether. Those are extremely explosive substances evidenced by the fact that the Johnson & Dow factory blew up during the war.

Regards,

Paul Kenworthy

[dnaples]

List,

Does anyone have a pic or a description of what the labels on the cartridge packs from the Tyler Arsenal looked like?

Thanks,

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Mr. Naples,

Have researched the last year also trying to find an extant Tyler Arsenal cartridge label. My hope is that a relic dealer will post an image of an arsenal pack for sale.

No images of labels, but an excellent book on the arsenal is Tyler, Texas, C. S. A. by William A. Albaugh III, ISBN 1-56837-263-9. His 1958 book was reprinted in 1993 by Broadfoot Publishing Company, www.broadfootpublishing.com/.

I'll be in Tyler in late March for a living history at Camp Ford. If I find out anything more I'll let you know.

Regards,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Does anyone know of original printed labels for Richmond Arsenal produced cartridges for the following calibers (0.54, 0.577, 0.58, 0.69)? So far I have found examples of a .69 caliber Buck and Ball and several small caliber labels for pistols.

Thanks,

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[ley74]

On my searches, the Museum of the Confederacy can usually be of help. Ask for Dr. John Coski. There may be a small fee but, a good cause.

http://www.moc.org/site/PageServer

[Reb13thva]

Gents,

I used the search function and din't find anything so here it goes. I am looking for a pic of and orginal 69 cal buck n' ball label. or a pic of a good repro. I can't seem to find any pics of origanls or repro's for sale anywere. If you happen to have a pick of this if you could eaither post it or email me at GeeJim39@aol.com with a pic it would be great
]
Thanks

James Sturckler

[Pritchett Ball]

One of my favorite Relic sites has this...
http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/M15614b.JPEG

You can see more original Arsenal Pac's on the same web site...
http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/c0034.html

Are you looking for Confederate, or Yank?
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Pritchett Ball]

Oops...that one is a Buck-shot AP.

A book to get that is great for any WBTS collection is Ready...Aim...Fire! Small Arms ammunition in the Battle of Gettysburg: by Dean S. Thomas
ISBN -0-939631-00-8
Thomas Publishing Co.

They have a number of original Arsenal Pack's pictured.

Kevin Dally

[NYCivilWar]

James,

You may also want to check out "An Introduction to Civil War Small Arms" by Earl J. Coates and Dean S. Thomas. I don't have mine handy, but I believe that I remember seeing original cartridge labels in the book.

Kyle M. Stetz

[BobSullivanPress]

Please check this page out in my on line museum.

http://www.sullivanpress.com/CartridgeLabels.html

There are pictures of Richmond Arsenal labels for 54, 52, 44 and 36 caliber cartridges.

[WestTN_reb]

Bump....

I ran across this thread and thought I'd revive it. In the posts, arsenal packs for pistol cartridges are mentioned. Does anyone have any specifics on them? Specifically, calibers issued and whether paper or pasteboard packs were more common for those calibers.
FYI: I have a 1849 Pocket model I'm wanting to press into service, so that's the reason for the question.

[Jimmayo]

Bump....

I ran across this thread and thought I'd revive it. In the posts, arsenal packs for pistol cartridges are mentioned. Does anyone have any specifics on them? Specifically, calibers issued and whether paper or pasteboard packs were more common for those calibers.
FYI: I have a 1849 Pocket model I'm wanting to press into service, so that's the reason for the question.

The right view shows one example of a issued box of pistol cartridges. In this you can see the box and some loose cartridges. These are identified to a Michigan Officer but I can't find the ID on the computer now. Some of the loose bullets in the big box are post war. There is a box of period .44 cal in with the rest. Hope this helps a bit. I will post a picture of a linen sharps round later.

[Andrew German]

Greetings:

Dean Thomas's books (I have his Ready...Aim..Fire! Small Arms Ammunition in the Battle of Gettysburg) have scale photos of representative ammunition and boxes or paper packs. It appears that, for the Colt .44, Sage seamless skin cartridges in a drilled wooden block with paper wrapper were quite common. I have some fragments of a block (with label attached)that was in a revolver box when it was hit by a pistol shot.

For an early war impression, I made up some Bartholow blue pasteboard boxes, which have a simple, easily represented label.

It's not digitized, but I have a pattern for an original Sharps pateboard box. The box is 2.138" x 2.725", and the sides are 1.103" high. The cover (of a little bit lighter material) is 2.209" x 2.830, and the sides are .435".

Hope this helps,
Andrew German

[Jimmayo]

Here is a pic of a linen sharps cartridge complete with cotton fuzz.

[Parault]

I have sevaral questions concerning the cartridge labels.

I am sure most of the Confederate units used the arsenals closest to them.
ANV used Richmond and some others. Trans Mississippi used Augusta and others.

I have looked in the search area and other websites,and can find no information about which arsenal was used the most.

Which arsenal was the largest in the South?

What exactly did the Richmond Arsenal Labels look like?

I have purchased labels from the approved vendors and found no Richmond Labels. Where can I purchase the Richmond Labels?

The unit that I am a part of is actually an ANV unit, but we are here in the Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, Oklahoma area. I want to use the appropriate,or most used arsenal labels for my impression. I actually go an extra step and place my rounds in arsenal wrapped packaging. I don't like to see people pull out a Zip-Loc freezer bag with loose rounds. I understand keeping your powder dry,but when you are at a L/H,or at an event that you can take the extra time to improve your impression, keep the freezer bags hidden.

Thank you for helping me find the right place to go for this information.

[Tom Ezell]

The major ordnance depots and ammunition laboratories set up by the Confederate War Department were at Richmond, Virginia; Fayetteville, North Carolina; Charleston, South Carolina; Augusta, Savannah, and Macon, Georgia; Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee; and Montgomery, Alabama; New Orleans and Baton Rouge, Louisiana; Little Rock, Arkansas, and San Antonio, Texas. The shifting fortunes of the Confederacy soon compelled the abandonment of some of these, and from time to time others were added to the list, as, for instance, Columbia, South Carolina; Atlanta and Columbus, Georgia; Selma, Alabama, and Jackson, Mississippi. Of these, Atlanta and Selma became most important. While these were ordnance depots per the regulations, nearly all includied an "ammunition laboratory" for the manufacture and assembly of small arms cartridges.

Theoretically, the army could draw weapons and munitons from any of these depots. Realistically, the rickety rail system and uncertain control of the waterways made it more likely that the various departments drew from regional or nearby depots.

Augusta, by the way, had not only the ordnance depot/arsenal but also the Augusta Powder Works, which was the source of most of the Confederacy's propellants and rifle powder.

Thomas's work on small arms ammunition, Round Ball to Rimfire... is the most promising place to start in researching ammunition production and packaging, though it focuses on the Federal system.

[Parault]

Thank You Tom

That helps answer most of my questions.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

I have no "Richmond Arsenal" or "C.S. Laboratory Richmond Arsenal" label images to post but, in brief and to over-generalize...

Richmond tpyically used ink stamps directly on the bundle wrapper irself, or glued on printed labels under or over the string.

Images occassionally appear in some books, such as Richmond Arsenal page 54-55 of William Davis' THE FIGHTING MEN OF THE CIVIL WAR. Or ECHOES OF GLORY, Confederacy... Columbus Ordnance Depot page 33, or Charleston Arsenal, page 39.

Curt

[1stMaine]

Comrade,

Arsenal labels are a "yeah, but...." sort of thing. Although there are many labels out there, a great many that i have seen were "modifications" of an earlier label of dubious orgin. I believe that the use of these items in most situations is well overplayed.

For example, although known examples of Federal arsenal labels are noted, by the time production ramps up, the use of labels starts to fall off, with many extant examples have no label, nor signs of a label ever having been affixed. The packing boxes that the bundles cam in were marked with quantity & type of ammunition, and the date and place of manufacture. This was deemed adequate for most useages.

Additonally, many CS examples either do not have a label, or have an ink stanp similar to the label stamped onto the bundle wrapper before the rounds are wrapped. This would require you to locate a specific example and have a rubber ink stamp made up (not terrible hard to do) and then stamp each of the bundle wrappers before proceeding to make the bundles.

Are there examples of original bundles with arsenal labels or stamps? Yup, and also extant COMMERCIAL ammunition wrappers with both labels and stamps, although the stamp or printed bundle wrapper is much more common than the label. These commercial rounds were purchassed by the US Ordnance Department, and are usually for the "experimental" types of rounds, such as water-prrof self-consuming rounds for 54 & 58 calibre weapons, etc.

Having said that, a very large percentage of extant ammunition shaows no labels, stamps, or signs of ever being otherwise marked, so you are well within authenticity to have such bundles in your cartridge box, regardless of where you are drawing from.

Respects,

[Tarheel]

You may wish to consider the purchase of an excellent book on the subject. "Percussion Ammunition Packets. Union, Confederate & European", John J. Malloy, Dean S. Thomas, & Terry A. White. Published by Thomas Publications, Gettysburg, Pa., 2003. I'm not sure if this is still in print but I have found it to be a highly informative reference source, particularly for the Confederate Arsenals (very good photographs of Richmond Arsenal packs!!!)
Patrick Reardon,
The Lazy Jack Mess, UK

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Just an aside...

Yes, it also raises the archeological/historical question as to a misrepresented or distorted artifact pool.
Meaning, people being people... plain arsenal bundles are less noteworthy, collectable, or "price-worthy" as compared to the "marked" stuff... ;) :(

(And yes, with few exceptions, a great deal of repro arsenal bundle wrappers were the result of the pre Computer mid and late 1980's where enterprising lads (and vendors)simply took preWar labels, xeroxed them, and made cut-and-paste changes such as war time dates to feed the demand of more "authentic" or "hardcore" lads in the Way Back Daze.

Curt

[1stMaine]

Curt,

That's exactly where all the "Kennebec Arsenal" labels came from. Although there was, in fact, a Kennebec Arsenal in Augusta, Maine, (which should not be confused with the Augusta Arsenal of Augusta, Georgia, despite some revisionsit reenactor's remarks), that arsenal, to my knowledge, used no labels or ink stamps to identify the cartridge bundles it produced. the only marking I have ever seen from that arsenal are on a packing box in the Maine State Museum.

Those "Kennebed Arsenal" labels were, in fact, produced by me using an old "Augusta Arsenal" label, with white out and dry-transfer lettering, and a good photo-copier. They were done back in the late 70's, to satisfy a demand by some Federal reenactors, and have since been reproduced by other vendors and are still around.

I have personally spoken to many folks about those labels not being correct, and nobody wants to believe me. However, I still have the original artwork/paste-up if anyone ever wants to see it.

You will occasionally also see labels with a spead-winged eagle and "Kennebec Arsenal" on them. Those are also faux-labels, again from the 70's, but still, apparently, kicking around some quarters.

Respects,

[Starbuck73]

Hi, I'm new to authentic campaigning, and I was wondering how to make the packages catridges came in, and how many catridges were in in a package? I'm trying to avoid farby methods of hauling extra ammo to events.

Thanks a lot!

Happy Memorial Day!
Nathan Anderson

[AZReenactor]

Nathan,
A little use of the search engine here or off site like Google should reveal that there is a fair amount of this information already available. To avoid starting yet another thread on this topic, I've merged your post with the last thread along the same lines.

You might also look through the research articles sedction, specifically at.

Making Authentic Cartridge Packs by John Wedeward, 33d Wisconsin (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/links/showlink.php?do=showdetails&l=163&catid=13)
Making Authentic Cartridges by John Wedeward, 33d Wisconsin (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/links/showlink.php?do=showdetails&l=162&catid=13)

The AC isn't here to spoon feed people the same old basic information over and over again. We don't mind helping now and then but we really expect folks to do basic research or at least e-search at this end of the hobby.

[Kevin O'Beirne]

In the events folder, for Vicksburg 2007, I also posted a simple set of instructions for Federal participants' rifle-musket ammunition. The principal difference to caution against for the Vicksburg guidelines is that, because that event is on NPS land, use of "wadding" in the cartridges is not allowed, and typically most reenactors do use such wadding to approximate the size of an original rifle-musket cartridge. The document posted in the Vicksburg 2007 folder includes photographs.

[Tarheel]

You may wish to consider purchasing my modest little offering "Making Cartridges" which The Watchdog has recently published (all profits go directly to excellent preservation causes). I've covered most of the common types; .58cal, .69cal ball and .69cal buck and ball and also the method I use to make up the packages. I hope this helps.
Patrick Reardon,
The Lazy Jack Mess, UK

[Marc29thGA]

Comrades,

I wanted to finally share the fruits of my winter project (one of many any way): During the long Maine winter I did a lot of digging on the Net, AC Forum and books for information cartridges and how to make them for my Enfield. I utilized David Minshall’s on line article on making Enfield cartridges as well as “Rifle Ammunition” by Arthur B. Hawes, reprinted by Thomas Publications as my primary sources. Lots of pictures in various books and on line helped me as well.

In the attached picture you will see my “1st Generation” Enfield cartridges and packages. The cartridges on the right were done for experimentation only with 3M masking paper for the outer paper. The ones on the left utilized standard photo copy paper. The stiff inner paper for holding the powder was made using old company letter head (that was destined for the trash due to changes in the company) which seemed to work well for the stiffness as it is a heavier paper. The “bullet” is half a cotton ball. I dipped the outer tube in beeswax (I didn't have any tallow to mix in with it). The wrappers for the cartridges are 3M wrapping paper cut to specified size in “Rifle Ammunition” and I did my best to recreate the print on my computer from my sources and fed the paper into my printer. Finally, I tied them using cotton string.

Please remember that these are my 1st Generation and I am still looking to improve them. Paper is my definite challenge and I have acquired another type of paper that seems a little lighter than the copy paper. I have only rolled a couple practice tubes and need to do more as I am working out some kinks in tying the “bullet” end of the outer tube. 1st Generation’s were twisted and pushed in. I’m still pursuing perfection…

I wanted to share this project earlier, but hadn’t gotten around to it. This weekend I attended an M… event (I know, I know…) and had two occurrences with my cartridges which made me smile and feel some satisfaction with my efforts:

During the first inspection of the day, I threw the Sgt. Major (and former Ord. Sgt.) of my unit’s umbrella organization for a loop when he checked my cartridge box and didn’t know what to think of my rounds. I explained to him they were the correct round of the Enfield pattern, but he was thinking I was overloaded on powder due to the size and skeptically looked at me and the round he held in his hand. He asked to inspect the round, I whole heartedly agreed, he opened it and was satisfied that I was “safe”.

Later in the day, during another inspection, the Ord. Sergeant was checking cartridge boxes and stopped again at me. He pulled out another round and questioned me. I told him the story of what the rounds were and offered him the chance to inspect once. He declined and said I was all set.

In hind site, maybe I should have approached the Ord. Sgt to show him my “non-standard” looking rounds before inspection. At the same time, I felt justified in my efforts to recreate something as accurately as I could with the information I had at hand and could find using “search.” It also encouraged me to do more.

Any comments and critiques would be welcome to help me improve on what I have done so far.

Mods: If this isn’t the best place for this thread, please do move to the better location.

Thanks in advance,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

You are to be commended on your efforts!
Keep up the good work.

Curt
Memories of 1988 Mess

[1stMaine]

Mark,

Remember when we were discussing packing boxes for Enfield cartridges?

Look what I found:

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/britain/enfield/enfieldcartridge06.htm

According to the article, Enfield rounds were packed in barrels, with a cylindrical tin down the center to hold the paper packets of percussion caps.

Of course, label-wise, this is excellent:

http://www.thomaspublications.com/civilwarprojectiles/articles/wrappers_primer.htm

I find it quite interesting that the Enfield label is done with red ink.

Huh...

[Pritchett Ball]

Awesome...ANOTHER Enfield cartridge "nut" on the ACBB!:D"

Hey, that is quite a start you have...your label looks great, as does your cartridges. It looks like you have copied the earlier style of
Enfield cartridge, I'd be glad to help you out with the latter style that uses the gummed strip, and the shorter "outer" wrapper. (See attachment below)
The style you have copied was also used by the Confederate Arsenals...so your good to go there. I have some British and Confederate Enfield Cartridge AP labels I'd be glad to share with you, plus other idea's on what else you can use for the "bullet".

What cartridge box are you using?
PM me, or email me.
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Marc29thGA]

Curt & Kevin – thanks for the compliments!

Tim – yes I do remember. I have that article and only wish my woodworking skills enabled construction of a barrel I have made a pretty decent ammo crate based off the one on display at GNMP visitor center, Ord. Manual Specs and similar photos. The second link is a new one and I have seen other pictures of that package from Ludlow Brothers. Perhaps red was the color ink they used internally or maybe specifed by the British Gov't? It is also interesting to note that in that package, the rounds are parallel to the print instead of perpendicular as with other wrappers.

Kevin – sending you an email.

[Pritchett Ball]

Here is one Relic web site with a couple of original British AP's, one in red ink, the other in black ink on the label...
http://www.cw1861.com/1Originals.htm

Also this Confederate Augusta Arsenal pack...
http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/m15425.JPEG

Some times the labels on British AP's are put on sideways...just depended who was doing the wrapping at the time, I guess

Kevin Dally

[Resaca]

Marc,
Those look fantastic! I've been working on printing those wrappers on a printing press at work for my pards. Yours look great. I've also tried to print some of those "Ludlow Brothers" labels in red (off of that relic site,cw1861) but haven't got the font quite right yet. I used some newsprint that was a little heavier weight than those "end rolls" you can get at the newspaper office. The color of the paper appeared to be pretty close to the originals from what I could see.
You've done your homework and it shows, keep up the good work.


Tony Patton
Blue Ridge Mess

[wmkane]

Where are you guys getting the stamps? I'd LOVE to have a stamp to use for my own cartridges, but don't have a clue on where to obtain one, or have it made.

[1stMaine]

Bill,

Most shipping places like "Main It For U", etc, can order rubber stamps of virtually anything you want, within size limits. You need to supply them with the full size copy of what you want, exactly how you want it, and they send it out to be made up. Staples used to offer this service as well.

Respects,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

And office supply stores often make up rubber stamps.
Depending upon the size of the stamp, hereabouts they will run from about $8 to $25 for a medium to large stamp. (Costs can also be shaved by going to scrap-booking/art stamp stores where one does not have to pay for the fancy lathe turned handles seen on "classic" rubber stamps).

The harder part in getting stamps made can be that the maker wants "'camera ready art" to make the stamp from, and charges heavily if they have to produce the "art" themselves. However, now in the age of computers and scanners, it is easier than in the Way Back Daze.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Marc29thGA]

Hi everyone,

The printing on my wrappers was done in Word. I toyed with different fonts until I had one that looked close to the pictures I had available. I set the size of my paper (Page Setup) to match what was specified by the British Government. From there it was playing with the overall font sizes until it looked correct when the 10 round were wrapped. I cut my wrapping paper to size and fed it in my printer. The ink jet is not period correct to the 1860’s, but maybe if you have a dot matrix….:p

If anyone is interested, I’d be happy to share my file and from there you could use it as I did in the picture or to have a stamp made from. People have shared their labors with me, so I’d glad to pass on mine. Just shoot me a PM or email and I can take care of it when I am home from work for the day.

Kind regards,

[Pritchett Ball]

OK... if you are crazy enough to make Enfield style cartridges, you would of course need AP labels to pack em in.

The ones I have posted below are some of the ones I created on Micro Soft Word...and I hope I don't have to go thru THAT for a while!:rolleyes:

The Selma AP label I had seen only in a B & W photo, and it "looked" like it was stamped on a off-white paper wrapper.

The Augusta labels I copied from the picture I posted earlier of the Augusta AP, it of course was printed on white-off white paper, cut and glued to a brown wrapping paper.

The red British label was the first one I came up with, and as originals, you would print it onto brown paper. I have the same wrapper with 1863, and 1864 dates

The Ludlow labels are for the "Gummed Strip" that joins the shorter Outer wrapper to the Powder cylinder-inner wrapper, as per the latter style of cartridge...The only paper I have to work with is green construction paper, so I print em out on a sheet of that, and cut em down to proper size.

I have no hard claim on these labels, y'all can use em. Geoff Walden was a BIG help to me in the making of Enfield style rounds.
Enjoy!

Kevin Dally

I have not had a day off work since July 4th...so I hope all this posts OK for everyone!

[tommy303]

From correspondence with the British National Army Museum archivist, it would appear that British arsenals shipped cartridges in quarter barrels, as described on the research press.co.uk link, as well as in wooden ammunition boxes. The latter were officially, Box, Small Arms, Ammunition, and were made of deal for home service and mahogany or teak for tropical service. A tin for holding percussion caps occupied the centre, with packets totalling 440 rounds packed to either side (although I have seen a reference to another ammunition box holding 560 although this might be a reference to a quarter case that was also used in transport).

It would appear that in the British Service at least, the quarter barrels were used for shipments to overseas stations and once at their destination were emptied and the cartridge packets and caps transferred to the wooden ammunition boxes, the latter being more convenient for transport by mule or wagon on campaigns.

I would assume that the Confedrate army received imports in quarter barrels and reissued the ammunition allotments in locally produced and designed ammuntion chests.

As to the cartridge packet labels, most British made packets appear to have the label printed in black ink directly on the wrapper at a right angle to the axis of the cartridges. Those made by Ludlow, at least from the several packets i have seen, are printed in red and the lettering is in line with the cartridges. That might be a peculiarity of that company, although the sampling is too small to do more than speculate.

Thomas Fuller

[Pvt Ziggy]

Pards,
When rolling enfield cartidges would you fold the end or twist?

Thanks,

Kent Ziegenhagen

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

My Question is, what are you using as a former for your arsenal packs?

I can't get mine that neat (of course i have two left hands).

[tommy303]

Hi Bob,

I have used in the past an open-ended and open-topped box of wood that I cobbled together. The sides of the box are just wide enough for five cartridges laid in side by side and alternating bullet-end to powder-end; the length of the box is about two inches longer than the length of the cartridges. First lay in the wrapping sheet so that the label is centered and the sides are up, then lay in the first layer of five cartridges followed by the second layer. Fold the open sides over and paste closed, then the ends are closed with a triangular fold. The whole is then tied with coarse twine.

Thomas Fuller

[27thNCdrummer]

I think it would be interesting to note that my research indicates that most Confederate soldiers with Enfields were getting the cheap Confederate made knockoffs not the true English made rounds.

There were some Confederates who received the true English rounds from time to time but I think for the most part they were receiving Confederate made goods.

The sharpshooter battalions on the other hand hated the Confederate made rounds and would only use the English made stuff.

[Marc29thGA]

Bob,

There use to be an article on Lazy Jacks’ site on making cartridges that had plans for the “jig” I use. It was made of scrap pieces of 1 x 4 lumber – 3 pieces total - one for each end and one for the base. The space between the ends is about 2 and 5/8 inches. I lay the string and wrapper in the area between the ends and stack the rounds. From there, it is just a matter of folding the ends and tying.

I usually just use the jig to get things started then finish external to the jig. It just seems to work best for me that way.

The article on the L.J. site is gone now, but I believe is now available as a publication through The Watchdog.

Kind Regards,

[Army30th]

Try this link, it works for me:


http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge.htm

[Army30th]

Here's part 2:

http://www.lazyjacks.org.uk/cartrdge2.htm

[Marc29thGA]

Thanks for the Links!

The one I have in My Favorites for the L.J. article index does not list it anymore - strange...

Kind Regards,

[Tarheel]

As the author of the article on the Lazy Jack site may I add my modest contribution to this discussion. The Watchdog publication, which has been referred to, is a very much better version of my original articles and I urge those interested to purchase it because, as has been mentioned previously, all proceeds go directly to worthy preservation causes. The packaging jig I made, or Folding Box to use its 19th century term, is simplicity itself and is drawn and described in The Watchdog booklet. However, not in any sense considering myself an expert in these matters, I do have a question or two on cartridge packages. Never having seen an original package (not too common in the UK!!!) I would welcome some advice as to the type and weight of paper used. Was it similar to the paper used for cartridge tubes or was it heavier? Also, mention has been made in this discussion of packages being glued or pasted closed prior to being tied with string. Is this correct? I had assumed that, with the use of the Folding Box, the package was simply tied thus, by untying, allowing rapid access to the contents when required. Is this assumption correct? I would welcome advice.
Patrick Reardon
The Lazy Jack Mess, UK

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Thanks for the links and input guys.

[Army30th]

I have never seen any that were glued shut. Having never handled an original pack of cartridges (they are expensive!!), but all the one's I've seen were just folded closed and tied with a string of some description.

I am not an expert by any means, and I am sure that others have been making them longer than I. I've made bundles since 1989. The paper I used in making my bundles is similar to brown butcher's paper. It can be purchased by the roll. Not sure about that in the UK. I've used paper grocery sacks, as well as parcel post wrapping paper. When I first started making them, I measured what a stack of cartridges 2 deep by 5 wide would be, cut a block of wood to that dimension and folded the paper around the block. I removed the block and stuffed the cartridges inside. I do it way differently now, using a folding box as was done then.

[Marc29thGA]

I’ve never had the privilege of handling an arsenal pack, unfortunately. My experience is on line and in the books.

It does appear to me that labels were glued on the wrapper and then bundle tied. Of those pictures I’ve seen, the one attached that Kevin Dally (Pritchett Ball) sent me shows separate labels that appear to be glued over the folds of the AP wrapper in the middle and bottom. The middle does have one wrap of twine where the bottom one does not – maybe it has fallen off over time. (The bottom one could lead to the assumption that some APs were sealed by gluing.)

In “Rifle Ammunition…” by Arthur B. Hawes, page 45, it says of the British APs: “The packets are then fastened with strong twine and packed in barrels…” No mentioning of gluing. On that same page it says of the wrapping paper: “…upon which paper the description of the cartridge contained is marked.”

As Mr. Vanderburg says, I also use with good results, the lightweight brown package wrapping paper to make my APs.

Pvt. Ziggy: The cartridge ends are tied.

Mr. Reardon, Your article inspired me to make my cartridges better and dig for more and more information. This eventually lead me to undertaking these Enfield cartridges. Your book from the Watchdog is on my Christmas list.

Thanks everyone,

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

I do it way differently now, using a folding box as was done then.

I've tried the folding box but either I'm dumber than your average laborer in the 1860s or none of them have two left hands equipped with 12 thumbs.

If the rebs had gotten a close look at some of my efforts they would have laughed themselves to death. That's why I asked what other guys are doing but I am leaving out the glue part.

[majdoc]

Great work Marc.
Keep us informed
I my try my hand when this weather isn't hot enough to melt wax or cook an egg on the sidewalk.:D

[tater]

Gents,

looking through the forums on this page, and looking through books and Magazine articles, and through my Cartridge making kit, I noticed one thing, the lack of an authentic arsenal pack to put the finised rounds in. I asked my pards, and I found instructions on how to make authentic cartridges, and how to pack them, but I have yet to find a good repro of a label( discounting the "St. Louis Arsenal" and the "Selma Arsenal" Enfeild packs) I know that the paper is to be 6x9", but that is the extent of my Knowledge. Does anyone have a label that they are willing to share?


thanks

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

You may want to cruise through the SEARCH feature on this one.

In brief and to over-generalize...

For Federals, the lack of authentic arsenal stamped bundle wrappers is historical. With the exception of St. Louis, the five federal arsenals of construction did not use stamps during the War.

Now, the Confederates often did their own thing.

At any rate, there are vendors offering "stamps," however, there are also bogus fantasy stamps from flim-flammed Xerox cut-and-paste samples from the 1980's made by altering pre War dated labels.

Federal arsenal bundle wrappers were 6 1/2 X 9 inches, per the ORDNANCE MANUAL.

Curt

[Pritchett Ball]

Are you looking for Confederate Arsenal pack labels? (.54, .58, .69cal) If so, I have some I have duplicated from pictures of originals I can share with you...
Email me at Kdallyrm@aol.com

Kevin Dally

[tater]

Thank you gents! That information will come in handy.