Buckskins?

[Barry Smithson]

I have a question for those of you more experienced than I. I have seen the debates on horse colors and types rage on this and other boards. I have a buckskin quarter horse that I have used for hunting. He is calm, unfazed by crowds, smoke and gunfire. I was considering using him for reenacting. I know that the color-type was defined much later then the mid 19th century. I have seen photos of light colored horses as well as far more of the dark colors. My question is how far off am I to use him?

[MountedRifle]

Barry,
I used the horse and wouldn't worry about the color issue. The important thing is to take it slow and get the horse use to the sights and sounds of a reenactment event. I've got a chestnut colored mare and she fits in fine. I know most people say only use a gelding but I truly believe it depends on the individual disposition of the horse as to whether or not they will be a good mount for a event. The proper saddle and equipment is also important. If the horse is comfortable with what you put on it's back it will tend to be a more "happy" horse. Put your horse next to a seasoned veteran and it will most likely take the lead from the veteran and stay calm. Being a herding animal they all need a "buddy."

I wish you great success with your new mount.

Safety First,

Mark White
16th MO Mounted Infantry

[Linneus Ahearn]

I have a buckskin quarter horse that I have used for hunting. He is calm, unfazed by crowds, smoke and gunfire. My question is how far off am I to use him?

Although Buckskin or Dun colored horses were less common than other "common colors" during the mid-19th century they still existed and were used. Sounds like you have a potential good one.

You can go to my webpages to get some ideas on how to train him to be a good cavalry mount if you like.

[10nycav]

Stonewall Jackson's mount "Little Sorrel" was described by one contemporary observer as a "dun of very sorry appearance." From my readings dun appeared to be a color that was more common in non-TB horses at that time. I would argue that this color was rare in horses originating in the Northeast and Canada, due to the original base stock of these horses, but became more common as one traveled South and West. Common local stock, with probable old Spanish influence, would be more likely to have this color. "Poor men's" horses in the South, for example marsh tackies, cracker horses, Creole horses, and Chickasaws, would be more likely to be of this color since they all have Spanish influence. It was found in the Mexican mustangs of Texas as well as half-bred "Texas horses" (TB/Mexican cross). First hand Civil War accounts also discuss gray and roan horses, so these would be fine too.

The only color I would say is inaccurate for battlefield use is a spotted horse. There is substantial period literature arguing that such horses were less hardy. There was a strong military prejudice against them on the basis of appearance too. In the East they were considered fit for circuses, pulling advertising wagons, and the like. If they were ever used it would most likely be in the western theater where they had access to Mexican mustangs. (I think I recall seeing one mention of Kilpatrick riding a "spotted horse" but unfortunately can't remember now where I saw it.) Still, it would a rarity on a par with jaguar-skin trowsers as far as I can tell.

Of course, many reenactors use horse types and breeds that were rare or nonexistent in the US at that time. Color is only one issue although of course, the most easily recognizable. Unfortunately, many of the old breeds and bloodlines are extinct or nearly so, and among those breeds that have survived appearance has often changed a great deal.

Ken Morris

[Charles Heath]

Ken,

This may help a tad with the Spotted Horse story you recalled:

Confederate Veteran Magazine mentions:

http://www.terrystexasrangers.org/confederate_veteran/1906_309.html

http://www.terrystexasrangers.org/confederate_veteran/1906_062.html

As long as Little Sorrel hung around as a stuffed display, I'd guess a color photo wouldn't be too awful hard to locate. (Famous last words!)

Charles Heath

[Linneus Ahearn]

Back before they buried Little Sorrel's last remains I took a look at him but they didn't allow photos. Judging his coat by what I know of the dun factor I don't recall any line down his back or any difference in his mane and tail color. He seemed just a faded with age sorrel or chestnut. Here is a look at him after the war (obvously a black and white photo)
http://nwhorse.com/images/littlesorrel.jpg

[10nycav]

Thanks, I knew I'd seen it somewhere! Too bad the horse was not described. He may have been leopard-spotted, otherwise he probably would have been called piebald, skewbald or even "calico." Some leopard-spotted horses were imported from Germany in the 1850s. But there's no way of knowing without a better description.

As for Little Sorrel, I have seen a color photo of him. He looked like a faded pale chestnut in the photo. Problem with old taxidermied animals is that they can fade a lot and not look much like the original color. If he had a line or "list" down his back he was a red dun; if not he was just plain ol' sorrel. I couldn't tell from looking at the photo. I believe he was also described by contemporaries as a light sorrel rather than as a dun. However a saddle and crupper would have hidden the list.

Ken Morris

Ken,

This may help a tad with the Spotted Horse story you recalled:

Confederate Veteran Magazine mentions:

http://www.terrystexasrangers.org/confederate_veteran/1906_309.html

http://www.terrystexasrangers.org/confederate_veteran/1906_062.html

As long as Little Sorrel hung around as a stuffed display, I'd guess a color photo wouldn't be too awful hard to locate. (Famous last words!)

Charles Heath

[Charles Heath]

Ken,

As you sift through this, note the differences is color between the two color shots of Little Sorrel. In 1911, a great 1863 photograph of Little Sorrel aka Fancy aka Bob was printed in the Cavalry volume of the Photographic History of the Civil War. It is probably in the more recent editions, too. His coat is shining, and he shows good form for his supposed Morgan breeding. That photo doesn't seem to show up on the 'net, and neither do the great views of the horses from Grierson's Raid. The latter of which had a heck of a lot of color variations in their mounts. More on that at another time.

Little Sorrel when alive:

http://www.vmi.edu/archives/jackson/Photocoll/03028052.jpg

Well fed Little Sorrel:

http://www.vmi.edu/archives/jackson/Photocoll/03028052b.jpg

Same image as a small card currently for sale:

http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/p9942a.JPEG

Color Photo about 2/3 way down on the right.

http://www4.vmi.edu/museum/jackson.html

From the Smithsonian page:

"Little Sorrel, or "Fancy" as he was known, became famous as the mount of General Stonewall Jackson. Captured at Harpers Ferry by the Confederates, he was chosen initially for Mrs. Jackson but eventually commandeered by the General when his own horse, Big Sorrel, proved unreliable in battle.
In 1863, at Chancellorsville, Jackson, while riding the horse, was wounded by his own men and died a few days later. At first Little Sorrel was pastured at Mrs. Jackson's home in North Carolina, later sent as a mascot to the Virginia Military Institute where the General had taught cadets he led to battle, and then in response to requests from many Southern States, was shown at fairs and exhibitions.

In 1885, ancient and infirm at the age of 35, he was retired to the Confederate Soldier's Home. The following year he died when the hoist used to lift him to his feet slipped; he fell breaking his back. Little Sorrel was stuffed and housed in a museum at the Veterans Home until 1949 when he was finally returned to V.M.I."

Now, what color is this horse (another view) (about 1/2 way down the page) :sarcastic :

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/virginia_history_children/61354

The 1997 burial:

http://users.erols.com/va-udc/sorrell.html

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Charles Heath

[10nycav]

Here's a fun article about Little Sorrell by someone who actually knew him:

http://www.aphillcsa.com/index/smith7.html

[The passage about Little Sorrell begins about 2/3 of the way down the page.]

Sounds like he was an extremely intelligent horse. I also was amused by his habit of lying down like a dog whenever the troops would stop to rest. He also from this account, was an expert forager. It's not surprising Little Sorrell lived so long--he really knew how to take care of himself.

Now that Little Sorrell is a historical icon various breed groups are trying to claim him as "theirs." The Morgan people say he is a Morgan, the Saddlebred people say he was a Saddlebred. There is no evidence that either is true. Little Sorrell looks like neither a Morgan or a Saddlebred. The fact that he paced or ambled argues against him being a Morgan. The Morgans at that time were noted as trotters. The ambling trait does occur in the breed occasionally but it is rare. Pacing horses in the North generally came from Canada (the Canadian Pacer) and some of these pacers were also imported into the South. Most of the gaited breeds developed in the middle South have some Canadian Pacer in their background. (The Pacer itself was said to have arisen from a mix of the Narragansett Pacer and the Canadian Horse. However, there were several families of pacers in Canada that looked very different, so the truth may be much more complicated than this.) Little Sorrell's conformation actually resembles the Hal family of Canadian Pacers more than a Morgan or Saddlebred--high withers, straight back, straight rather than crested neck, and rather short, sloping croup. The Canadian Pacer is now extinct, but one of its predecessors--the Canadian horse--still survives, and the blood of the Canadian Pacer still runs, albeit much diluted, in the Standardbred, the Tennessee Walker, and other American gaited breeds. (The South also had indigenous families of gaited horses, probably of Spanish extraction, most of which are extinct today. The Florida Cracker horse is one example of this type which still survives in small numbers.)

Ken Morris

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Ken,

That photo doesn't seem to show up on the 'net, and neither do the great views of the horses from Grierson's Raid. The latter of which had a heck of a lot of color variations in their mounts. More on that at another time.
--------------------------------------------------------

Charles Heath

Charles, Could you pass on the information you have on Grierson's mounts... I thought I had read and had copies of just about every thing available on the 6th and 7th ILL during his 1863 raid. I think I know the pictures you are talking of, although I don't have them in front of me right now. As I recall there isn't much detail in them other than several horses on the picket line and several waiting in column. By the way the Illinois State Historical Society has a great (1906) account from former Sgt. Forbes of the 7th, and U of I at Champaign has the Forbes Family Letters that Cpt. and Sgt. Forbes wrote home. I also ran across a nice shot of Grierson's Baton Rouge camp in a book, and photocopied it, unfortunately I didn't remember to copy where the original image is, so I'll have to get to the library again. The photocopy is grainy, but clear and enlarged to original size would be awesome I'm sure. I'll pass on the image when I get the details. Thanks, Zack Ziarnek

[ButtermilkRanger]

That photo doesn't seem to show up on the 'net, and neither do the great views of the horses from Grierson's Raid. The latter of which had a heck of a lot of color variations in their mounts. More on that at another time.

Charles,

I'm glad you mentioned the A. J. Lytle photos of Grierson's men somewhere near Greenwell Springs outside of Baton Rouge. They're some of my favorites of the war. The amount of color variation is amazing and interesting to boot. Obviously, if we are to base so many arguments on period photos, then the color variations of Grierson's mounts open up much food for thought.

Here is another little tid-bit of information I ran across one day while I was doing some research at Southeastern Louisiana University. The university has several out of print books on various Louisiana battles, one of which dealt with Grierson and his actions AFTER the famous raid while still in SE LA. During Grierson's push against Frank Powers' Confederate Cavalry at Clinton, to relieve the pressure on Port Hudson, an observer noted that one of Grierson's Lieutants was mounted on a splendid "spotted horse".

I've always been inclined to go with the flow and just make the argument that spotted horses were practically non-existant during the CW. Now, I'm not so sure...

While that may indeed be the case east of the Appalachians, was it that way here in the west? Better yet, what was it like in the TMD?

Here's a good question... does anyone have a copy of the photo of the Federal trooper mounted on what appears to be an Appaloosa riding a horned Texas saddle? I believe he may have been in a Kansas unit? I'd like to see that one again.

And, since it looks like I'm writing a novel here anyway, has anyone looked closely at the photo of Federal cavalry mounts tied in a row somewhere in Virginia during the mid part of the war, facing the camera (I saw the pic recently in one of those new composite "photographic history of the war" type coffee table books at Barnes & Nobles). The interesting thing in the photo is that several of the horses have what appears to be rifle stocks sticking up from their sides as if the rifles were in old west type saddle scabbards. There are no troopers near the mounts.

What's up with that?

Larry Morgan
Buttermilk Rangers LHC

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Larry,
Hey if someone comes forward with the image of the spotted horse, let me know I'd like to see it too... I can't say I've ever seen that one. Also do you have a jpeg of Lytle's Grierson images? If you do could you send them my way? I've started a folder on every ID'ed 6th and 7th ILL image.
Thanks, Zack Zairnek

[ButtermilkRanger]

Zack,

I wish I did have a jpeg of the Lytle pics. They're some of my favorites. One of these days I'll have to try and dig them up and scan them. Ottis Arnold did have a copy of the mounted Federal with the spotted horse. I'll have to ask him if it's still around somewhere. The horse wasn't a dalmation and it certainly wasn't a paint, but it did have enough white on the hips to classify as an App in my book.

Larry Morgan
Buttermilk Rangers LHC

[Charles Heath]

Crittermilks on the loose,

If you can lay your hands on one of the older, large format, 1911 or 1957 editions of The Photographic History of the Civil War In Ten Volumes, Part Four: The Cavalry, then you'll have the photos, or at least some of them. These books have been reprinted in smaller format in recent years. Some of the captions for common "been-in-every-book" photos are found nowhere else. Usually a couple over on eBay for under $10. A couple of CS cav photos in there that don't show up in the more modern sources, although one really looks federal, IMHO. I'd love to be able to see a sharper image of the '61 shot of three mounted rebs in Falls Church just outside DC.

I'd like to see that photo of the leopard spotted Appy, too, but I'll settle for the John Munson photo from Wilder's Brigade.

Zack, the broader images of a hundred or more horses of Grierson's boys are on pages 130 and 131. These are the Baton Rouge photos with the men unsaddling their horses in almost a stereo image, but not quite. It also shows -- gasp -- tentage.

Charles Heath

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Crittermilks on the loose,

I'd like to see that photo of the leopard spotted Appy, too, but I'll settle for the John Munson photo from Wilder's Brigade.

These are the Baton Rouge photos with the men unsaddling their horses in almost a stereo image, but not quite. It also shows -- gasp -- tentage.

Charles Heath

Charles, Some where I have the Munson image... I think in "Blue Lightening" and I've seen the tentage image at Baton Rouge... I just don't have a clear photo of it. There are several 6th troopers buried around here, so it's lort of a local CW intrest... Thanks, for the info. Zack Ziarnek

[Charles Heath]

Zack,

The Munson image shows up in EOG-US, too. I don't recall the page number off the top of my head, but it is on the left side, upper left corner fairly early in the book. Would that we all looked nearly that good, both man and mount. Munson has the surcingle employed as a breast strap and the billet is dangling down a bit. It's one of the few photos I'd like to have copied, matted, framed, and hung on the library wall. There's just something about that photo which is totally captivating, IMHO.

Just as a pure supposition, my guess is some of Lytle's photographic work has not been published over the years and is sitting in a repository somewhere gathering dust. I don't know if that would be in LA or DC or where, but maybe, just maybe, three or four more plates exist from those Baton Rouge shots that have not been widely circulated. For what it is worth, those old CW Photographic Histories are cheap on the used market, and (like we all need another dozen books), and have been overlooked for the most part, in spite of being reproduced in recent years and readily available.

Charles Heath

[CJSchumacher]

Charles, Some where I have the Munson image... I think in "Blue Lightening" and I've seen the tentage image at Baton Rouge... I just don't have a clear photo of it. There are several 6th troopers buried around here, so it's lort of a local CW intrest... Thanks, for the info. Zack Ziarnek

Zack,

I've had the 1911 Miller's volumes for some time and remember the Grierson photos. Actually, there are two seperate photos showing the men mounted and later dismounted. Even with the higher quality printing in the original volumes, its still pretty hard to make out some of the finer details. I'll check my cav volume tonight and have a closer look.

Larry,

Is the "mounted federal w/ the spotted horse" you're referring to the 6th Ohio cav guy that used to be posted on the military horse website?? That photo is great as it shows trimmed hardee, mounted service jacket, un-bloused trousers, etc.

"Three mounted rebs just outside of DC in Falls Church..." Where is this? Wouldn't Ken Knopp have included this amongst the 15 known pictures of mounted confederates in his preliminary works??

[CJSchumacher]

Zack,

For what it is worth, those old CW Photographic Histories are cheap on the used market, and (like we all need another dozen books), and have been overlooked for the most part, in spite of being reproduced in recent years and readily available.

Charles Heath

Cheap?? There's currently an original set on andersonmilitaria.com for sale at almost $600. I guess that's not terrible considering its only $60/volume, but I'm not sure about the readily available part.

Here's a quote from their site..."Last set we found just before this one was priced $895. These are rare antique volumes and rare books bring very high prices. However, we can do better than usual on this set. Please add $35 for P/S/I. It's a very heavy set. $595"

Just wanted to dispell any mis-information.

[Charles Heath]

Chris,

There's a sucker born every minute. It helps to know where to look.

The fact is the 1957 reprints of the 1911 first edition have been running around $8-10 for a couple of years, and once in a while the much later reprint version of a four volume set comes up for about $30. The highest I've seen a single volume is about $20. If someone wants to pay $600 by their own personal failure to shop around, well, that's good for the seller. The lowest I've seen is a hefty $2 per volume without dustjacket, foxed, and fairly worn. A quick search on Amazon will reveal the 1988 and 1991 reprints runing in the $7-$9 range used, and $17.99 for new. Not all volumes are in stock. That's part of the fun of building a personal library.

Just clearing up misinformation about good information. I like to encourage people to buy books, rather than scaring them away from having good quality information at their fingertips. Others have different philosophies about sharing information within the hobby, so be it. It never hurts to look for fairly priced used books outside of the high priced realm of "collectors." Sometimes good books can be had for free, if you know the right people.

Thanks, James. :cool:

Buy low, sell high.

Charles Heath

[CJSchumacher]

Buy low, sell high.


Ahh...a typical day up here in nyc...life is good! :cool:

That was what a quick search did while looking for the original 1911 series in its entirety. The reprints just lack the quality and in my opinion true value of these works...since the text is so often misrepresented.

I remember seeing the Munson photo and being inspired to try the "surcingle as a breast strap" method back in the earlier 90's. Works well, but I still found that if you don't require a breastrap, then its as unecessary as using any others. Of coarse, many horses just lack the withers and there are so many quarter-horse types in the field today that slipping saddles is pretty common...let alone unskilled hands saddling horses or not checking girths periodically. Uphill and mountainous riding, of coarse warrant its use also.

Still, one of the best shots of a fighting man during the ACW.

[10nycav]

If a horse has low withers I have found that what they need is a crupper, not a breast strap (breastplate). I have a Canadian horse who is about as mutton withered as they come. A crupper is an absolute necessity but a breastplate is unnecessary. I have found that the breastplate is necessary on (to quote Henry William Herbert) those "highly bred horses that tend to run out of their saddles.") Typically these are horses with high withers and rather small and/or narrow barrels. Usually a lot of TB in them. There are a couple of horses like this in my group and they use private purchase breastplates. None of the other horses need them even going up and down hills. Then again we have no QHs in our group so maybe the conformation of our horses is not typical of what is out there among most modern cavalry groups.

(Herbert, who was an Englishman, also noted that many American horses of his time--1850s--required the use of a crupper, which was considered a great fault among European riding horses, ponies excepted of course. But the Americans seemed to think little of it. Apparently this reflects differences between American and European horse breeding. Could it be that the European horses he was most familiar with were bred for riding alone, while many American horses had to be "jacks of all trades" and had to be suitable for both riding and driving? Also perhaps sheds some light on why the crupper was an issued item during the ACW while the breastplate was not.)

Ken Morris

--Ahh...a typical day up here in nyc...life is good! :cool:

That was what a quick search did while looking for the original 1911 series in its entirety. The reprints just lack the quality and in my opinion true value of these works...since the text is so often misrepresented.

I remember seeing the Munson photo and being inspired to try the "surcingle as a breast strap" method back in the earlier 90's. Works well, but I still found that if you don't require a breastrap, then its as unecessary as using any others. Of coarse, many horses just lack the withers and there are so many quarter-horse types in the field today that slipping saddles is pretty common...let alone unskilled hands saddling horses or not checking girths periodically. Uphill and mountainous riding, of coarse warrant its use also.

Still, one of the best shots of a fighting man during the ACW.

[CJSchumacher]

Ken,

That is interesting as my horse is high withered and has minimal barrel/chest and I've had minimal problems with saddle slippage...requiring neither crupper or breaststrap. This goes for both quarter strap and english rigging.

I've had some opposite results riding quarters, though. Anyway, I think that it really depends on the type of riding being done as all saddles will inevitably slide a bit. A properly saddled horse and a constant watch on your girth has the best effect on end results. Again, if you are riding in the mountains or a lot of uphill riding...both may be a necessity.

[agintomboy]

Stonewall Jackson's mount "Little Sorrel" was described by one contemporary observer as a "dun of very sorry appearance." From my readings dun appeared to be a color that was more common in non-TB horses at that time. I would argue that this color was rare in horses originating in the Northeast and Canada, due to the original base stock of these horses, but became more common as one traveled South and West. Common local stock, with probable old Spanish influence, would be more likely to have this color. "Poor men's" horses in the South, for example marsh tackies, cracker horses, Creole horses, and Chickasaws, would be more likely to be of this color since they all have Spanish influence. It was found in the Mexican mustangs of Texas as well as half-bred "Texas horses" (TB/Mexican cross). First hand Civil War accounts also discuss gray and roan horses, so these would be fine too.

The only color I would say is inaccurate for battlefield use is a spotted horse. There is substantial period literature arguing that such horses were less hardy. There was a strong military prejudice against them on the basis of appearance too. In the East they were considered fit for circuses, pulling advertising wagons, and the like. If they were ever used it would most likely be in the western theater where they had access to Mexican mustangs. (I think I recall seeing one mention of Kilpatrick riding a "spotted horse" but unfortunately can't remember now where I saw it.) Still, it would a rarity on a par with jaguar-skin trowsers as far as I can tell.

Of course, many reenactors use horse types and breeds that were rare or nonexistent in the US at that time. Color is only one issue although of course, the most easily recognizable. Unfortunately, many of the old breeds and bloodlines are extinct or nearly so, and among those breeds that have survived appearance has often changed a great deal.

Ken Morris


Dear Ken:

I agree with you regarding color distribution/incidence among nonTB and Spanish type horses. When I went on a riding holiday in Portugal over a decade ago, I saw all manner of "western" colors such as palomino, dun, grulla, blue roans, buckskins, etc. One can see the genetic ancestry of QHs and other Spanish type horses by going back to Spain or Portugal. I have a red dun foundation QH named Cpl. Tyree who unfortunately is a little too "on" to be a reenactment horse ;-0! He is built like a brickhouse, has a "sorrel" color to his body with deep coppery red points: mane, tail and legs with 3 white socks/stockings and a blaze. ALL duns have the primitive horse markings of darker points than the body, sometimes zebra striping on the legs and a dorsal stripe. Buckskins are similiar but LACK the dorsal stripe, have points and looking at the picture of Little Sorrel, he has no points. His legs are the same color as his body. He definitely is a sorrel. All Spanish type horses ultimately go back geneaologically to the North African Barb rather than the Arab which helps to explain the color distribution in these breeds. By Spanish type horses I include the Andalusian, Lusitano (of course!), Spanish Mustang, the foundation QH before 1940,the Canadian horse, the Morgan, the Friesian, the Cracker horse, the Rocky Mountain Horse with lesser amounts in the Tennessee Walker and Saddlebred. This is by no means an exclusive list but covers the major breeds descended out of Spanish stock. If any of you have seen my brown, racking pony Fuzzy, he is definitely a Spanish type large pony (14 H) with the arched neck, short back, rounded hindquarters. He unfortunately has mutton withers and every saddle rolls on him except the Mac, thank GOD!! His gates are very smooth and he is great on the trail. It makes it easier to blow the bugle at any gait faster than a walk!

Anita L. Henderson

[Charles Heath]

Ken,

You really nailed it on the conventional wisdom of cruppers and breastplates, and for those of the longears persuasion, a britchen (aka breeching or britchin) can be a handy device for keeping the saddle off the withers on those steep downhill glides. I don't use the latter in a period setting, because other than as a component of draft and pack harness, I haven't seen any CW era documentation for such in saddle mode. They are still available brand new for modern riders, but back to the period discussion....

Little Mac and others before him who were designing cavalry equipment probably had the experience to consider the condition of the animal several days or even weeks into a mission, as well as develop aspects for worst case terrain scenarios for man and beast. A saddle that fits well on the parade ground may barely fit at all after a week or two on the move. Where casual trail riders have many opportunities to stop and check their tack, this wasn't always the case for the cavalryman on active campaign, especially once he was actively engaged. It is good someone had the forethought to provide components for decidedly off road use, which is ironic considering cruppers are often found in sets of driving harness. :tounge_sm

There is always something fun to learn if we look for it.

Charles Heath