CS Saber Belt Question

[hireddutchcutthroat]

What would you folks recomend for a good all around generic CS saber belt? I would like something that I could use for both AoT and ANV. I already have a US belt. Thoughts?

[CJSchumacher]

What would you folks recomend for a good all around generic CS saber belt? I would like something that I could use for both AoT and ANV. I already have a US belt. Thoughts?

There is an original CS manufactured belt that is on loan to Tredegar Iron Works from the GNMP that is constructed in everyway like a U.S. belt with exception of the absence of the "sam brown" shoulder strap and uses a georgia frame buckle. The buckle is attached with one vertical row of stitching, which also differs from the U.S. '51 pattern. I have a reproduction of this belt.

You can also go with a simple tension sword belt that utilizes any number of various two-piece buckles.

Either of these options should work well for you.

Chris

[Huck]

What would you folks recomend for a good all around generic CS saber belt? I would like something that I could use for both AoT and ANV. I already have a US belt. Thoughts?


These would work nicely.

[Nighthawk]

You might consider one which is on display at GNMP. It is a simple Georgia frame buckle and belt with sword hangers/hardware attatched. A very interesting piece!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

At this point I am leaning towards a "spoon and wreath" or possibly an English import belt. I geuss this means I would might actually have to carry a saber :sarcastic

[CJSchumacher]

At this point I am leaning towards a "spoon and wreath" or possibly an English import belt. I geuss this means I would might actually have to carry a saber :sarcastic

You can't go wrong with a simply spoon & wreath set-up. John Stillwagon, with permission, had photographed an "expediency" piece that was in the collection of Don Troiani. It was a simple folded cloth belt with iron hardward (the oval kind vs. brass "D" rings on U.S. belts) with sewn leather hangers. It also exhibited a two-piece buckle with no method of adjustment. The belt was unpainted...very cool!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

. It also exhibited a two-piece buckle with no method of adjustment. The belt was unpainted...very cool!

Whoa, that is interesting!

[marlin teat]

You might consider one which is on display at GNMP. It is a simple Georgia frame buckle and belt with sword hangers/hardware attatched. A very interesting piece!

A few years ago I got together with Tom Czenski (sp?) and asked him to recommend a design that would have been worn by a recently promoted western C.S. line officer of few means. The Gettysburg frame piece was the the model we decided on. The last time I saw him he still had a few made up. He's not in the retail business anymore but perhaps someone has a contact.

[Iron Scout]

Gents,

I guess everyone has something that's "their thing" and CS waist belts & sword belts happen to be mine. First off, I'd steer away from the canvas piece as it's very late war and very specifinc to the ANV. The one I viewed from Hendershott's collection a number of years ago didn't even appear to have been issued. I believe he still has photographs of that particular one on his website. Take a look at the belt Paul C. posted for me under the CW images section on original artifacts. The roller buckle sword belt is a very neat article and would be generic enough for either theatre; it also uses salvaged Federal hardware.

That being said, I'd recommend Hanover Brass for any of the various two-pieces in red brass. A Leech & Rigdon two piece may be a good choice also especially with its heavy use in the West. Gary's McElroy frame buckles also do very well on sword belts. I made several frame sword belts for S&S about a year ago so maybe give them a call and see if any are still available. Best wishes on the hunt.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

[CJSchumacher]

Neill,

Those pictures look great. That looks just like a Federal sword belt, minus the shield plate and some of the construction! It even looks like the front hanger strap assembly was correctly place on top of the belt like the U.S. belts. It looks to be very well made. That would be a great "generic" belt to use for doing CS regardless of theater.

The Troiani belt was actually missing the sword hangers and only the remnants of the stitched ends remained. I would agree that it is highly likely a later piece and wouldn't hold up well under extreme conditions.

I also concur with Hanover Brass as they have some teriffic buckles! They have a bunch which were repopped from Steve and Joyce Henry's unbelievable VA buckle collection...amongst their other selections!!

[Iron Scout]

Chris,

Your right about the Taylor belt, it's very well made and exhibits one really neat feature; it's dyed on both sides and is rough/flesh out! Never say never I guess. Taylor served around the Wilmington area for a while along with in SC and Va after 1864. I never could find any officer's purchase forms in his records to see where it came from. The rings and square are put on just like the Federal model. One of my favorite pieces!

Jim Mayo's excellent site now has John's photos of the canvas belt so folks can check it out in detail. Good discussion.

Neill Rose

[KyCavMajor]

Chris,

Your right about the Taylor belt, it's very well made and exhibits one really neat feature; it's dyed on both sides and is rough/flesh out! Never say never I guess. Taylor served around the Wilmington area for a while along with in SC and Va after 1864. I never could find any officer's purchase forms in his records to see where it came from. The rings and square are put on just like the Federal model. One of my favorite pieces!

Jim Mayo's excellent site now has John's photos of the canvas belt so folks can check it out in detail. Good discussion.

Neill Rose

I have built three of these sturdy, simple belts so far and have sold the darn things as fast as I get them done. I did get to wear one at a tactical in Camden SC a few weeks back... I really liked it.
Easy adjustment, as the day warmed and layers came off, that was a great advantage. Should work in any theater.

[CJSchumacher]

Chris,

Jim Mayo's excellent site now has John's photos of the canvas belt so folks can check it out in detail. Good discussion.


Neill,

I too love collector talk! Here's Jim's link and the belt can be found at the bottom of the page. Notice, too, the cloth keeper at the left of the top photo and pristine CS spoon & wreath buckle. Funny thing is, on a non-adjustable belt...what do you need a keeper for??? Hmmm...looks I guess. Just a neat piece of equipment.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/csequip/csbelts.html

Chris

[Iron Scout]

Chris,

The one Hendershott had was able to be adjusted via a small, double brass wire hook. Butch Myers has shown me several of these dug around Richmond. I mean it's small guage wire too! I may try to post a few photos here later that folks may find interesting. Many of the Richmond belts, especially 1863+, simply had a leather thong pulled thru two holes for adjustment. I'll see what I can do later regarding some pics of this.

Neill Rose

[CJSchumacher]

Chris,

The one Hendershott had was able to be adjusted via a small, double brass wire hook. Butch Myers has shown me several of these dug around Richmond. I mean it's small guage wire too! I may try to post a few photos here later that folks may find interesting. Many of the Richmond belts, especially 1863+, simply had a leather thong pulled thru two holes for adjustment. I'll see what I can do later regarding some pics of this.

Neill Rose

Why does "small-guage wire" and "dug around Richmond" not surprise me at all! :wink_smil

That would be outstanding to see some more photos! I'd love to see them.

[roundshot]

Canvas sword belts of this type are one reason that Richmond CS tongue and wreath buckles seem to be found in quantity in CS Cavalry camps occupied for any length of time - they ditched them as soon as they could. This is true of the camps around Culpeper and Montpelier VA as well as around Richmond. "Richmond" type plates, of both yellow and red brass, saw service in most theaters. I am aware of several dug around Murfreesboro, TN and one on its original belt attributed to an officer in Forrest's cavalry. I believe these to be way underrepresented in the hobby.

In addition, based upon archaeological findings in ID'd Cavalry camps in Mississippi/Alabama and numerous photos, the cast oval "CS" plates, sometimes called the "Breckinridge," generally saw service on saber belts. But thats a whole 'nother can of worms!

Bob Williams

[Iron Scout]

Gents,

Here's a few pics of one of my favorite belts for sale recently. This is the ANV style with the thong adjustment mechanism. The leather strip is missing but you can see both holes. Also note the "bullet" stitch that characterizes the RD belts. This is the first style of belt when the shops were using two brass strap loops/ovals. The second style (1863+) had the rear strap sewn directly to the belt with a teardrop shaped stitch. Hope everyone enjoys.

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

[CJSchumacher]

Gents,

Here's a few pics of one of my favorite belts for sale recently. This is the ANV style with the thong adjustment mechanism. The leather strip is missing but you can see both holes. Also note the "bullet" stitch that characterizes the RD belts. This is the first style of belt when the shops were using two brass strap loops/ovals. The second style (1863+) had the rear strap sewn directly to the belt with a teardrop shaped stitch. Hope everyone enjoys.

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

Neill,

Great pictures! I love the bullet stitching at the keeper...also, a well-cast buckle. Also, note the more typical fashion on CS belts of securing the hangers around the belt and stitching vs. on-top of, which is much more typical of U.S. made sword belts. (Both front and rear hanger assemblies with obvious exception given to those already belts mentioned above that are basically copies of Federal belts with changes)

[ferraius]

Yankee Bob,
If I was you I would try to find someone who will make you a Georgia frame saber belt out of bridle leather. I understand that there is one in the Gettysburg NPS collection. I would think that they would have been a common belt in all theatres of the war. I don't know who is making decents saber belts these days though, the last one I got from a reputable sutler was made from heavier weight leather than should be used in my opinion. More suited for draught horse halters!

Jon O'Harra
aka Romulus "The Black Rascal"

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Yankee Bob,
If I was you I would try to find someone who will make you a Georgia frame saber belt out of bridle leather. I understand that there is one in the Gettysburg NPS collection. I would think that they would have been a common belt in all theatres of the war. I don't know who is making decents saber belts these days though, the last one I got from a reputable sutler was made from heavier weight leather than should be used in my opinion. More suited for draught horse halters!

Jon O'Harra
aka Romulus "The Black Rascal"

Jon Jon

I am leaning more towards the spoon and wreath due to the fact (that according to relic hunters I have spoken to) that they show up quite abit in the west. I also feel they are under represented in the hobby in general.

Blue trimmed CD jacket, Austrian Lorenz, no saber, Hope saddle.....Yea Im doing ANV :rolleyes:

Now go strum dat banjer!

[GBaylor]

Robert,

You may very well be doing ANV. The 1st Virginia Cavalry (at least one company thereof) were issued Columbus Depot shell jackets w/ blue trim in late 1862. Along with the Lorenz and no saber, you'd fit right in with a sharpshooter company in the ANV cavalry. Note. they called their skirmish companies (those without sabers and revolvers) "sharpshooters".

John Sweeney

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Robert,

You may very well be doing ANV. The 1st Virginia Cavalry (at least one company thereof) were issued Columbus Depot shell jackets w/ blue trim in late 1862. Along with the Lorenz and no saber, you'd fit right in with a sharpshooter company in the ANV cavalry. Note. they called their skirmish companies (those without sabers and revolvers) "sharpshooters".

John Sweeney

John

On the old forum sombody posted imformation regarding the 1st VA (Jon Jons unit) having blue trimmed CDs. Do you have this info? Everybody in CA portrays ANV save me. :wink_smil

[GBaylor]

Robert,

The information came from Nick Nichols who found it in a private diary in the University of Virginia Collection. He was a member of Company F, 1st Virginia Cavalry. I have the guys's name somewhere in my notes, but Nick made a transcription of it and gave a copy to Dave Born. CD's weren't as uncommon as some might think in this neck of the woods. There's a published set of letters from a "Urjanus (sp) Allen" of the 21st Georgia who describes an issue of what sounds like Columbus Depot jackets in Virginia in October/Noember 1862.

I'm going to trey to get one of the members of my unit who attends UVA to try and locate the diary.

John Sweeney

P.S. Do you know Ed Simms?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Robert,

The information came from Nick Nichols who found it in a private diary in the University of Virginia Collection. He was a member of Company F, 1st Virginia Cavalry. I have the guys's name somewhere in my notes, but Nick made a transcription of it and gave a copy to Dave Born. CD's weren't as uncommon as some might think in this neck of the woods. There's a published set of letters from a "Urjanus (sp) Allen" of the 21st Georgia who describes an issue of what sounds like Columbus Depot jackets in Virginia in October/Noember 1862.

I'm going to trey to get one of the members of my unit who attends UVA to try and locate the diary.

John Sweeney

P.S. Do you know Ed Simms?

Thanks allot John!


"Do you know Ed Simms?" Yep!

[Mike Ventura]

Neill,

I too love collector talk! Here's Jim's link and the belt can be found at the bottom of the page. Notice, too, the cloth keeper at the left of the top photo and pristine CS spoon & wreath buckle. Funny thing is, on a non-adjustable belt...what do you need a keeper for??? Hmmm...looks I guess. Just a neat piece of equipment.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/csequip/csbelts.html

Chris

Is it my eyes or does the stitching on the fabric belt (middle of three in the photo om Mayo's site) look like it is machine stitched?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Is it my eyes or does the stitching on the fabric belt (middle of three in the photo om Mayo's site) look like it is machine stitched?

Mike

If you are refering to the belt with the snake buckle, it shure does to me.

[CJSchumacher]

Mike

If you are refering to the belt with the snake buckle, it shure does to me.

I think he may be right also.

Rob,

One point of clarification...as a couple of us cav guys are as anal as many collectors...the "Hope" saddle is most comonly referred to as a "Texas" saddle or of the "Texas pattern" or "Texas tree."

Have fun and tell Ed I said "Hey!"

Chris

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I think he may be right also.

Rob,

One point of clarification...as a couple of us cav guys are as anal as many collectors...the "Hope" saddle is most comonly referred to as a "Texas" saddle or of the "Texas pattern" or "Texas tree."

Have fun and tell Ed I said "Hey!"

Chris


Thank you for the clarification. Jon and Ed are draging this AoT infantryman kicking and screaming into the saddle. :cool:

Bob

[Mike Ventura]

Yeah - the snake buckle belt on Mayo's site (see Chris' link) sure looks machine stitched to me.

Look at the close up of this belt - I believe it's the third photo on the site.

Since it is a fabric belt, it's not out of the realm that it could have been machine stitched. Those stitches are just too uniform to be hand sewn, to my perspective anyway.

[VMI88]

The information came from Nick Nichols who found it in a private diary in the University of Virginia Collection. He was a member of Company F, 1st Virginia Cavalry. I have the guys's name somewhere in my notes, but Nick made a transcription of it and gave a copy to Dave Born. CD's weren't as uncommon as some might think in this neck of the woods. There's a published set of letters from a "Urjanus (sp) Allen" of the 21st Georgia who describes an issue of what sounds like Columbus Depot jackets in Virginia in October/Noember 1862.


John,

Not questioning your information, but I'd love to see that documentation if you turn it up. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that it would be specific enough to conclusively identify the issue of Columbus clothing in the ANV. A diary entry mentioning blue-trimmed jackets might be circumstantial evidence, but we need to be careful not to attribute every period reference to a known type.

By the way, like you, I believe that Columbus Depot jackets were probably issued in Virginia, and I look forward to conclusive proof surfacing some day!

[GBaylor]

Bill,

And i know this is off the thread a bit, but in talking with Les Jensen, he has no qualms about the CD being in Virginia earlier than 1864 and Bushrod Johnson's Division. I showed Les and Fred Gaede the reference from the 21st Georgia and they too drew the same conclusion. In the old forum archieves there was an excerpt from a Columbus Georgia newspaper mentioning issues of uniforms to Georgia and Virginia troops in late 1862. I believe either Lee White or someone posted it. Anyway, Les said that the Richmond Clothing Bureau could draw from any clothing depot in the South. As for Nick's research, he's a pretty thorough fella.

John Sweeney

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Somebody posted on the old forum an account of "several carloads of uniforms" being sent to Lees army from Columbus. I dont think it is that far fetched to think that Columbus (and other GA depots) sent uniforms, just as cannons and belt plates were sent to VA from GA.

But without rock solid documentation it is just speculation on my part.