Sack Coat

[Jake Hill]

Where would be a good place to purchease a Union Schuylkill or Cincinnati Arsenal Coat? And which one was more prevelant to the Western Theatre?

Thanks

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Where would be a good place to purchease a Union Schuylkill or Cincinnati Arsenal Coat?

Chris Dailey, County Cloth, or Skilletlecker.



And which one was more prevelant to the Western Theatre?

It is impossible to say but; Philadelphia made 558,000 lined and 439,000 unlined and Cincinnati made 444,000 lined and 295,000 unlined coats for all theaters. I feel that both would be PEC from Virginia to California.

[RyanBWeddle]

www.crchilds.com

County Cloth - makes Schuylkill, Steubenville & J.T.Martin styles of Federal Issue Trousers AND SACK COATS, which ALL are 100% CORRECT for western theatre impressions.

EDIT: Thanks ?!?! :confused_ I wasn't paying attention, anyways the suggestion still stands - he makes sack coats too in those same patterns!
Go with County Cloth! - Ryan

Good luck!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

www.crchilds.com

County Cloth - makes Schuylkill, Steubenville & J.T.Martin styles of Federal Issue Trousers, which ALL are 100% CORRECT for western theatre impressions.

Good luck!


Ryan

I think the question was on fatigue blouses.......... :sarcastic

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Jacob

If you ment dress coats all the above mentioned apply.

[Gerkin]

I am just curious, who DOES make a Cincinatti fatigue blouse? No one that I have seen does, so does anyone know who does?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I am just curious, who DOES make a Cincinatti fatigue blouse? No one that I have seen does, so does anyone know who does?


See Ryans post above.

[Gerkin]

Mr. Curtis,

I have checked Mr. Childs' site a hundred times over in the past month or two, and he doesn't sell a Cincinatti Arsenal sack coat.

[SteelCityZouave]

Hello. If you're looking for a good Cincinatti Arsenal Sack coat, I've seen one at Family Heirloom Weavers in Gettysburg for $170. It's made by Matt Caldwell, and I think it's a size 40. You may want to contact them if you're interested (www.familyheirloomweavers.com). I hope that helps! :)

[RyanBWeddle]

Mr. Curtis,

I have checked Mr. Childs' site a hundred times over in the past month or two, and he doesn't sell a Cincinatti Arsenal sack coat.


Contact him directly...

[Alamo Guard]

Need a good sack coat? Contact Pat Brown, he wrote the book on em.

[markj]

Need a good sack coat? Contact Pat Brown, he wrote the book on em.

Well, Pat wrote "a" book on sack coats but not necessarily "the" book on them. I'm sure even Pat would readily agree that a lot more remains to be said about this subject and some of the information presented can be reasonably debated. Pat's book is certainly a good start, and reflects a tremendous amount of research, but, in my view, the often indifferent--and even poor--quality of its photographic illustrations is a major weakness. Including color images to show the wide variation in sack coat fabric colors would have been a major plus. However, I'm realistic enough to know that using black and white images likely helped to keep publishing (and selling) costs down.

Does anyone else feel the same way or is it just me?

Mark Jaeger

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Eallo Mark,

I feel the same way about the pictures. While it is a wonderful reference work for fatigue blouses, the lack of color in Mr. Brown's book was disappointing. I can understand that there is just no way to get around some of the low-resolution images, if they are all one has, but I sure would have liked color! The book has two thumbs up in my book for content, but...oh, color! :cry_smile I am in earnest,

[Agate]

It would be interesting to review the provenance connected with a surviving "Cincinnati arsenal" sack coat, or is this the celebrated Oct. 1864 Martin contract?


A couple of thoughts on all of this as it seems to continue to be brought up.

I would encourage you to read "Quartermaster support of the army; a history of the corps" by Erna Risch. Published by the Quartermaster Historians Office, Office of the Quartermaster General, 1989. This will provide a rudimentary understanding of the USQMD as it existed during the latter part of the war.

By 1864 the United States Quartermasters Department in the West was centralized and under the authority of one person, that being Robert Allen. Headquartered at Louisville, principle depot at Cincinnati, principle advanced base of supplies at Nashville. Allen's authority reached to the Pacific.

If we examine Executive Document 84, a document that lists the contracts made by the principle depots for the fiscal year ending 1864, and contained within the Serial Set, we find that the vast majority of contracts let by the office at Cincinnati for clothing were with houses that were located in the larger cities of the East.

BTW, it isn't clear as to what role St. Louis played during this period. QM documents in the OR's mention it both as a "clothing hall" and mention it as well, as a principle depot. One thing can be determined however, totals were no where near that of Cincinnati.

One can run down the list of contracts made in Cincinnati, and in regard to the contractors, it parallels much that of the New York depot. In other words, the same folks were supplying goods in a number of cases to both depots Goods that found their way to the Army of the Potomac, made their way to the Western armies as well and in vast quantities.

This is of course late in the war, the period we really know anything about concerning support of the army by the USQMD.

Understand, so little is known about procurement during the middle period, no person can with almost any authority get on this board and advise concerning almost anything about it. We are left to our best guess, and opinion. The earliest period however is somewhat a different matter.

The first quartermaster officer assigned to a department in the West was one John H. Dickerson, who arrived in Cincinnati previous to 3 May 1861. Capt. Dickerson had been requested by General McClellan about the time of the initial creation of the Department of the Ohio. The department consisted of the States of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. One can read up on this by searching the OR's which are on-line at MOA Cornell.

To give the reader a further glimpse into government support of the earliest period of the department, one can read about the ordnance officer assigned, one Captain Kingsbury, starting on page 122 of Paul Johnson's work, "Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman."

It should be noted that this initial department, within a span of six months, became the war in Western Virginia, Kentucky, and Missouri. A full three quarters of the Federal line or effort according to Sherman in his memoirs.

Dickerson was interviewed by the Van Wycke committee during a Congressional investigation into early army contracts in which he testified that he had samples from Philadelphia. So the very first wartime garment samples that would have been on display for those in Cincinnati interested in army contracts were not surprisingly from Schuykill. Dickerson also testified that he purchased clothing from Eastern houses as well including W. F. Enders and Co. of Boston, J. D. Baldwin of Pittsburg, and C. C. Roumage of New York.

The testimony was taken on Dec. 30, 1861 and starts on page 741 of Volume 1143.

In uniform research what has been lacking over the years is an examination of the market and it's effect on procurement. If there are differences between clothing purchased by the QMD between Acting QM's in the East and West, we will most likely find it in examinations of the market(s) involved, and not rely solely on what was "supposed" to be in regard to the regulations.


An example of this follows from Dickerson's testimony on pg. 743: "I have made few contracts for anything. When supplies have been wanted, I have very generally advertised so as to get the lowest market price, and then distributed my orders among parties dealing in the kind of supplies wanted. If I want thirty-thousand suits of clothes, I advertise for say five thousand suits. The lowest responsible bidder gets the amount called for by the advertisement, and the remainder wanted is distributed among the clothing houses which do the best work, at the same prices at which the award was made."

Dickerson notes as well that this was done because when the rumor that an advertisement was about to be placed, the Cincinnati market would suddenly advance. Civil War era QMD price control. Due the nature of open market procurement of clothing, "middlemen" could buy of manufacturers in any city, and sell to the government. Sometimes leading to problems, such as identifying who initially the garment was purchased from, and or manufactured by (see my post "a quartermaster speaks" concerning Col. Crosman of Philadelphia and his comments regarding unmarked blankets). Where some of the early Cincinnati procured clothing was initially manufactured is anyone's guess.

As there is so little information available, paired with so few examples of surviving garments, trying to fit into some sort of typology is a hard road to travel, if not impossible at present. A Steubenville blouse, a Schuykill blouse, and a Martin contract blouse, all have their place in the history of USQMD support of the Western armies, yet much of it is still unknown. I am of the opinion that for those of us who are interested in a Western Federal impression, because of the lack of solid research into this subject, we should concern ourselves not so much as to "pattern" as to that which is common to all surviving garments. The QMD during the Civil War considered a blouse a blouse, if it met the inspectors points of concern, it was passed, and was not considered BTW, in any way, shape, or form "shoddy" as it met the army standard.

Charlies "pattern" works well for this purpose indeed.

In regard to Mr. Brown's book, I certainly found at least one surprise in the volume, and should not comment on it further, as to take away from what I consider good effort.

Regards,

John

John Sarver
Cin. O.
Co. D
1st Regiment Ky. Vols.

[markj]

Indeed. A Federal QM depot operation was set up in Indianapolis in late August 1861 by Major A. Montgomery. By 30 September 1861 he was already publishing contractor bid solicitations in the local Indianapolis papers for, among other things, "10,000 Blue Flannel Sack Coats-Lined." This, however, should be compared with his request for "34,750 Uniform Coats, Privates, Infantry--dark blue kersey." All requested items had to conform with the "sealed standard patterns in this [Major Montgomery's] office," which were presumably obtained from either the QM Department, in Washington DC, or one of the larger Eastern depots (i.e., NY or Philadelphia) or, perhaps, from Cincinnati.

I don't know of any "Indianapolis contract sack coats" that have survived although that wouldn't be too surprising given wartime circumstances.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Indeed.

I was thoroughly disappointed by the poor quality of the pictures.
B&W can present great and extremely crisp details.

However, the images in the book are exceedingly poor, and in my ignorance, look like copies of copies of "Instamatic" shots- inexcusable in a Digital world.
IMHO, they do detract from a nice "primer," but not enough to warrant not adding it to one's reference self.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Consumer of Details

[Agate]

Mark,

The samples may well have been from Cincinnati. Montgomery is noted in the July 7 edition of the Cincinnati Enquirer as having arrived with USMSK Gibb from Fort Scott as an Asst. QM to Dickerson if memory serves. He was transferred as you have stated to Indy in August at the request of Meigs to provide QMD support to Indiana, which up to that point, as you are most familiar, provided her own goods. I have all of this from the main series of correspondence from the Quartermaster General on microfilm from NARA which includes the letter to Morton informing him of the departure of Montgomery from Cincinnati.


In September another QM officer, one Jenks, was transferred to Louisville to support Anderson's Department. By September, with the edition of McKinstry of St. Louis, four principle independent AQMs were in the West purchasing. Much of this involving the market in Cincinnati, as it was the commercial capitol of the West (no question as to why a principle depot was established here).

With the edition of agents of the individual states the market in Cincinnati became extremely advanced, so much so the the Quartermaster General wrote the following to Dickerson in a letter, presented in part, dated Oct. 18, 1861.

Series M745, Roll 36, "Main Series, Letters sent by the Office of the Quartermaster General, Volumes 56-57," entry 77/127.

"If a regiment will agree to accept white undyed wool clothing, and the cloth can be made west, it should be used. Anything in this extremity is better than to wait."

Is that killer or what?

Gentlemen, all of this is probably connected to a degree, which really should not come as any great surprise. State procurement, the market, early QMD support, a branch among branches, and it is starting really to unravel. I hope to write about it for the benefit of all of us, being a real believer that research should be presented to those who appreciate it the most, regardless of the medium. Good luck to you.

Hope you are well Comrade H.!!

Regards,

John

John Sarver
Cin. O.
Co. D
1st Regt. Ky. Vols.

[Agate]

Sorry, double post

[Jake Hill]

Thank You for the information it was very valuable to helping me purchase the proper gear.