Been there - done that

[marlin teat]

I posted this in reply to another thread regarding 140th events and Dusty suggested that I move it here.

Just a thought, but it seems (at least to me) that we have a great number of new posters on the site who have no first hand knowledge of the abominations that were most of the national events.

We are all aware of the wealth of information that flows through this site on a daily basis but I believe that what some of these fellows are looking for is subjective advice like you would get from a veteran 1st Sgt. -- knowledge that comes from having been there and done that (and often wishing we hadn't).

Perhaps in the future we should consider adding a forum just to collect and make available musings and advice that can't be found elsewhere. If handled properly, this could possibly develop into an useful guide to these fresh fish.

[RyanBWeddle]

knowledge that comes from having been there and done that (and often wishing we hadn't).

Ain't that the truth! :D Especially the "wishing we hadn't" part.

I'm all for it.

[JohnTaylorCW]

I really like the idea of a "wish I hadn't done" thread, if handled in first person (what *I* wish *I* hadn't done, as opposed to what I wish *the other guy* hadn't done.) If done with a sense of humor, it could be very instructive. Should this go here, or in the sinks, do you think? :D

John T

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

First of all, I am clearly stating that I am NOT wearing a Moderator's hat here, just an ordinary AC Forum member's hat...

I disagree.

This appears to be exactly the type of "role ambiguity" and "role diffusion" plaguing the AC Forum and causing numerous problems when "too young," "too new," "too inexperienced," and "too 'Not Authentic Campaigners or Authentic Civil War Historians:'

-migrate here
-find this Forum
-see "Civil War" and figure it is for them
-like the self given status and self-image produced by associating with the H/A Wing of the CW Hobby
-like the power asking a question and getting replies gives them
-and continually post really basic and utterly "Beginner Level" questions and replies that belong on beginner level fora.

We have discussed the pro's and con's, and merits and demerits of tutoring, mentoring, missionary work, island in the mainstream, bootstrapping, a hand up, and a host of other concepts that ultimately seem to come down to two basic camps- those who have tried them all for yers with minimal or miniscule gain, and those who have not tried them at all, or very little, and still believe they will work.

The argument does not lie in whether the one or two "converts" gained or made make it worthwhile in the end.

The larger argument lies in meeting the "higher" mission, goals and objectives, and purpose of the AC Forum.

The damage(s) done to the AC Forum's ability to serve its own concept and to further research and our collective knowledge of life during the Civil War may not be apparant to everyone.
But, when we keep ourselves at the "Who Makes the Best Haversack?" and
"I Am New. What Should I Take to Goofysburg 190?" level- we do provide a SERVICE to some newcomers and newbies- but we provide a larger DISSERVICE to the "Authentic Campaigner and the Authentic Civil War Historian" and those striving to "get there" on their personal Journey.

And we drive them off, and lose the benefit of their collective knoweldge and experience- and then replace them with more so-called Farb and Mainstream level lads not yet Progressive and not yet ready to be even Progressive Mainstreamers or Progressive Campaigners.

And, while we may talk about how nice and of what great value it would be to invite "well known" CW historians and Don Troiani "types" to post and share their collections here- I do not see that happening as long as we remain mired in the quagmire of the "Mainstream."

Sure, I have many stories and anecdotes I could share from my own Journey, and would even get a chuckle out of reading others in a SPECIAL FOLDER for them. Maybe. For a day or two...

Kind of like bogus items on EBAY... Considering the Nature of the Beast, can one expect anything different there? Sure, fraud detection and artifact analysis is a positive learning experience, but the S & G Items?

IMHO, I would rather see a research posting or some historic "Q & A."

Kameraden. Sometimes if one spends all their time looking backwards, one cannot advance very far forward. (There are other fora better and best suited for meeting the needs of the Newbie and Newcomer. For me personally, I love Kindergardeners. I just expect young adults in my college classes to have a little under their belts and under their skull caps...)

If we keep watering down the AC Forum to be all things to all people all
the time, it will fail to be much of anything in the end.

Just my CW half-dime...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Long Time Forum Member Mess

[marlin teat]

Kurt,
I apologize for my lack of eloquence. My suggestion was to have an area through which to filter honest questions that many on this board may consider basic knowledge. I know that we have such a forum, but often people are either wary to ask a question for fear of being ridiculed (we all know it has happened) or they can go to the "other" board where they will learn that the "Battle behind the Mongolonian Barbeque Stand" was the grandest event of the year. It was was for the precise reason of redirecting "stupid" questions that that I suggested this. You have always been among the most helpful and thoughtful among the posters on this board and I value your judgement. It's your type of well thought out, common sense advice that needs to be available. I find it hard to disagree with anything you wrote.

As my grandmother used to say, "We're all in the same Church, just sitting in different pews."

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Heinrich,

Excellent post. There's been a real "watering down" of the AC Forum in the last six or so months and frankly the questions are getting a little "Szabo-like" over here. That's not why I read or post on this forum. Like many, manyother regulars here, I have answered literaly hundreds (perhaps thousands) of such questions on public forums, private forums, listservers, e-mails, and in person over the years. Like many others, I've grown tired of dispensing the same basic advice over and over and over and over again. I'm bored with that approach and want more from the hobby...it's just not satisfying anymore to respond to "who makes the best sack coat?" and "will I get sick if I have slab bacon in my haversack?" and "how do I cook bacon in the dark?"

That is exactly why we wrote "The Columbia Rifles Research Compendium": to provide documented answers to many basic questions and use that as a platform (for our group at least) to continue moving forward. And yet I still see the same old questions asked time and time again when the answers are on the Internet for anyone who cares to look for them.

Most of us did a load of missionary work in our former units and are bruised, battered, and disappointed because of it. To me the AC Forum, while it's a great resource for those who want to USE it, is not "the Shell Answer Man" for all questions regardless of how basic they are. Nor it is a place to advertise mainstream events. I thought these ideas were the basic premise of the AC Forum since its inception back in 1999 or 2000.

As for creating a folder on the forum for "basic questions", I thought that's what the Camp of Instruction folder was for. Still, the REALLY basic questions deserved to be removed and posted over on Szabo's forum or the Teen Reenactors' Forum or someplace else more appropriate.

[CJSchumacher]

There's been a real "watering down" of the AC Forum in the last six or so months

Good point...I'll go one better.

There's been a real watering down of the A/C/H hobby for the last six or so years!

With quantity, the quality always drops.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

"The damage(s) done to the AC Forum's ability to serve its own concept and to further research and our collective knowledge of life during the Civil War may not be apparant to everyone.
But, when we keep ourselves at the "Who Makes the Best Haversack?" and
"I Am New. What Should I Take to Goofysburg 190?" level- we do provide a SERVICE to some newcomers and newbies- but we provide a larger DISSERVICE to the "Authentic Campaigner and the Authentic Civil War Historian" and those striving to "get there" on their personal Journey.

And we drive them off, and lose the benefit of their collective knoweldge and experience- and then replace them with more so-called Farb and Mainstream level lads not yet Progressive and not yet ready to be even Progressive Mainstreamers or Progressive Campaigners."

Bingo Curt! We defiantly have some hardcore haters here....

[JimKindred]

Bang on post Curt.

Deluting of the subject matter is something I have noticed for a long time on the forum and I will be the first to admit it is not the fault of the moderators or the list owner. With so many members on a board there is just so much you can do to filter out the basic questions and attitudes that water down the forum. As I point to many who ask me about the forum, it is a good place to learn but understand it is not intended to be a beginners forum.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Herr Marlin!

No apology is required, but thanks...

IMHO, there is NO SUCH thing as a stupid question- even "who makes?" and "how do I avoid dying from rancid bacon?"

However, there is a time and place to, and for, every question- and if the AC Forum is, or is striving to be, "one thing," it cannot be all things to all people without losing its vital and necessary self.

I believe that similar "service" had previously been available here in the SEARCH ARCHIVES that "frequently asked questions" and "newcomer type questions" could be referred to.
I would like to see the ARCHIVES restored, for the info and lore they contain; and I would like to see a folder APART from COI created for the truly serious newcomer (not for some of the lads whose personal growth and development is better served on other fora meeting their Mental Pictures, and who really have not [yet] journied on or "evolved" to the PHA Wing...)

IMHO, the AC Forum COI is NOT for the newcomer to Mainstream, Campaign, or even Progressive. It is for the newcomer to H/A, AS WELL AS
H/A's themselves as the learning, growing, and evolving NEVER ends.

And that applies to me as well as anyone else. I have learned MUCH from this Forum over the years!

Which is why I also post on Szabo's, even though I usually have little opportunity...

And yes, I reply to far, far more personal e-mails from lads too "gun shy" to post questions on the Forum...
;-)

I do it not for the "thanks," but for the "change."

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Convicted Mentorer and Sharer Mess
Federal Reenactor Protection and Relocation Program Participant
Once Upon a Time An Unknown Shaker and Mover in the Hobby

[Charles Heath]

Ignore or assist?

At one time, the AC Forum had a folder known as "The Awkward Squad."

It was a place for those oh-so-basic basic questions that would raise eyebrows elsewhere, and a place that was "off limits" to the sharp wit of those wishing to skewer the fresh fish dilligently trying to learn who makes the best anchor steam and doppler grease. The problem was the forum users were insulted that their questions could ever be considered filler for an Awkward Squad folder. Oh, my, such hubris abounds, but there are times when the master and mentor become the apprentice and student, as the subject matter changes from the familiar to new.

Would such a folder be of use today? I don't know. While the initial entry level questions won't go away, perhaps it is better to have a place to place them where the newbies could go look for newby questions and answers, and the more seasoned could avoid, if they wish. Everyone loves the idea of an FAQ folder, but the realists amongst us know "FAQ" translates to "Ignore This Please" in the greater American lexicon. There's another point, and that is an "Awkward Squad" folder needs a patrol sent in every once in a while to make sure the questions are being answered, and the answers are indeed good information.

People come to this source of information because they believe they will receive an answer better than other sources (yes, many times the same question is posted in several venues at once.) This has led me to believe the teaching/training role of corporals and sergeants has gone by the wayside in many messes and companies, but that's a tirade for another time. Maybe it is time for such an Awkward Squad Folder to cultivate the seedcorn of the hobby again, but just remember there are drawbacks to it as well as benefits.
Not a particularly popular view, but if we eat our young to the point of extinction there won't be much of a next generation. Tough choices.

Charles Heath
Exploring history beyond our individual comfort zone reaps rewards

[DougCooper]

I agree with Curt and Charles - and it goes back to the difference between training and learning. We on this end of the hobby ought to do both, and the Ackward Squad is where basic training can happen. As was said a few weeks ago elsewhere and in Charles' post - mentoring is not happening to these question posers (at least most of them). For every snotty teen with a chip on his shoulder trolling through the veterans, there may be 10 who have seen the light and need somewhere to go. If we want to change the hobby (or at least make our end bigger), we need to be on-line mentors. We do it on the field, why not here?

Set it up, make the rules clear and let the first answer to a question better answered on the Ackward Squad be...."please address your question to the ackward squad." The tough part will be delineating the diff between Camp of Instruction and Ackward Squad. Maybe defining it as "time in service" - i.e., a true beginner who just got into the hobby, vice a streamer newly bathed in the light. CoI is advanced training, AS is basic training and Authenticity is advanced learning or some such (scholarly is a word we use that I like).

Monday has been all heck - this discussion may have saved mine.

[Charles Heath]

Doug,

Having been where Curt is in terms of on-forum and email question overload, and speaking with another mod on the phone as I type this, here's an idea that may have some merit.

Just as some churches have lay ministers, perhaps a "mentor" title could be bestowed upon those volunteers who wish to answer the basic, newbie, questions in the Awkward Squad Folder. No other perks other than the satisfaction of a question well answered. As bizarre as that seems it could reduce some of their workload with the Niagara Falls flow of entry level stuff, and it would ensure some willing forum members looked in on the folder, and kept things straight. It may also cut down on the parrots for one reason or another. Let the mods send the questions over to the Awkward Squad folders at their discretion, and the mentors could do the rest unless a firefight ensures. This could work.

You ready to volunteer to be a Mentor? Seriously. It's a lot of work.

>> We do it on the field, why not here? <<

Good idea. Been there, done that. :wink_smil

Just a suggestion. It's up to Paul and the folks. Could be a good topic for discussion.

Charles Heath

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

I would support that idea.. .

But since I don't have a life anyways, I could support an "AS" folder (within the scope of the AC Forum, not the entire "hobby" from A through Z).

Or even both...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[ScottMcKay]

If memory serves me, The former 'Awkward Squad' was renamed to the present 'Camp of Instruction.'

[Charles Heath]

If memory serves me, The former 'Awkward Squad' was renamed to the present 'Camp of Instruction.'

Scott,

I remember the rather comical flap over the folder name the last time around, and the subsequent name change, so people wouldn't have hurt feelings when their question ended up in the virtual reenactor "grease trap."

The problem was the forum users were insulted that their questions could ever be considered filler for such a thing as an Awkward Squad folder. It's hard to say sometimes whether the annual spring influx of basic questions are from trolls or people asking simple questions for which they cannot get an answer at home. Perhaps the difference this time is a method for answering questions via cheerful volunteer on a peer-to-peer basis.

Heck, call it Mount Olympus, and it would serve the same function. :tounge_sm

Charles Heath

[dusty27]

This site has a "links" section. Look up, toward the right, see it? There it is. Click it. Articles, unit websites, vendor websites, preservation organizations, resource listings, etc.

Many of the answers to the basic questions can be found in one of the available folders. Ask around, find out the better groups on this side of the hobby. Go to their webpages. They often have "advice" sections for newbies that gives them guidance on what to buy and where to buy it.

Contact them. They can answer your questions.

"Who makes the best......"? Go to the vendor listings and see what they have. Most describe what they have and where they copied it from. Does it fit your impression?

"I've tried researching, but......." Go the the resource section and click open an online source. Look around. If you don't get your answer, you will get somewhere else to look for it.

It's fun. It's exciting. Find something new and bring it here for discussion. Then you will get all kinds of thoughts from the forum users.:wink_smil

[ScottMcKay]

Sometimes I just have to step back and wonder, how ever did we survive before answering machines ... calculators ... answering machines with remote beepers ... pagers ... cable tv ... cell phones ... computers ... the internet?

Well, in regard to everyday life, we made do (and very well).

Forgive me for my meandering, but I am trying to make a point.

Before the internet, authentics (or those striving to be) did not have such a treasure trove of at-your-fingertips information within the threads of this Forum (and resource links). Folks had to do thier own grassroots research or would have to individually network by phone, mail or in person to share research or cottage vendor info to improve their impressions.

Then, as now, if a new recruit was getting that information from their chosen group, chances are they chose the wrong group. And even worse, when one of those recruits saw the light (inspite of their group) and they tried sharing their enthusiastic new vision with their 'pards', they got shunned from their so-called friends, forcing them to either jump ship to authentic groups or eventually just burn out.

I have strayed from the point I am trying to make ...

Modern conveniences have spoiled our society and has made us lazy and impatient.

Before this forum, it was expected to wait several months when ordering garments from an authentic vendor. Hell, folks deemed it a rite of passage when they were waiting on thier first sets of gear to arrive ... by reading, researching, networking, drilling &c.

Now to my specific point ... with rare exception, pretty much every question has been asked and answered on this forum (or somewhere on the web); all one need do is use their SEARCH ENGINE and 'poof' up it comes! It is pretty much like an internet genie, answering your every question.

So why have so many members been not only asking already-answered questions but elemantary basic questions??

Well, whether it is laziness, immaturity or one's desire to see his name in print, all that waste of webspace does is irritate those members who have something valid to contribute to this forum, and in consequence, cause worthy contibutions to dry up.

This forum was not designed to be the spoon feeding of the homework-helpless. It is here for all to use that wish to improve their impression, but folks have to do a search before asking questions (particularly the basic ones). There are NO execuses not to search before asking; in fact, members have agreed to do so by having had clicked 'yes' on this forum's Terms & Conditions when regisitered.

If members won't search & read before posting already-answered questions, the moderation will be more vigilant to insure it doesn't happen.

[TeamsterPhil]

When I was introduced to the authentic movement, it was through a comrade that had fallen in with a good mess. We spent many, many hours reading the articles that were available online on the websites of the Bully Boys, the Rowdy Pards, the 10th Texas, the 33rd Wisconsin, and the brand new Authentic Campaigner website and other websites from many good units. We also asked questions of the FEW cph'ers out here on the edge of the world.

It seems now that there are quite a few guys that want to upgrade their impressions, but don't seem to have the personal contacts with experienced guys around them (or refuse their help - this has happened to me when I have offered to help a young fellow), don't seem to realize that their questions have been answered online MANY times in articles or forum postings (or don't care - they want someone to give them a personalized answer), or haven't seemed to grasp the "eureka" moment when an answer is found through their own research.

In a perfect world, all of these newcomers to authenticity would be able to get matched up with an experienced mentor. Could the A-C (or another type of resource) serve as clearinghouse for these newcomers and mentors? I don't have an easy answer for that. If I did, we'd be putting whole brigades of authentic guys on the field.

Phil Campbell
I asked my stupid questions in private (most of the time).

[ScottMcKay]

Phil,

I agree that it is good for a newbie to have a mentor, but I think it should be a group rather than a forum. All these BASIC questions that have been asked as of late are not the type of questions that should be answered ad-nauseum on our forum. If a newbie isn't getting his questions answered by his group, then he is with the WRONG group. And there are enough good authentic groups spread out through this land that pretty much anyone out there can find a good unit to fall in with. And THAT is where the mentoring should occur!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

To tie in with what Scott said previously, back when I found out that there was better vendors than C and D J**** the only way to get the stuff was A. go back east and talk to people who knew how to get the stuff (Im on the otherside of the Rhine with the Barbarians it seems) B. Call up Charlie Smith and more or less beg them to make something for you, and C. wait over a year to finally get the item that you ordered. But we knew what it was we were getting and the reason it was correct for our impressions and why it was better than the kit that everybody else in your home unit was using.

Now all somebody needs to do is "add to cart" and they have a high quality well researched garment or piece of equipment because they clicked a link on this forum. I seems that allot of the newcores I run into have no idea what the story is behind there gear other than it is an EFUBU brand Columbo Depot.

Im I ranting?