Name that Fiearm

[JustRob]

Folks,

Meet Alexander Zang, Co. H, 39th NYSV. He's wearing a private purchase sack coat, 1855 Rifleman's Belt, and a sword bayonet. It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.

http://www.ecs.gannon.edu/~frezza/39NYSV/alex_zang_cr.JPG

I'm having a tough time identifying what firearm he is carrying. The nose cap looks like an 1842 Springfield, but the weapon is too short. The Mississippi Rifle had a similar nose cap, but the rifle sling was much closer to the nose cap than the one in the picture. Did the 1855 Springfield come in a carbine? Even if it did, the nosecap incorrect. As for foreign imports, the front of the stock is too long to be a Garibaldi musket.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob Carter

[2ndNHDOC]

I am most likely wrong but it might be a Whitney Plymouth .69 cal rifle. It was a two band nose cap similar to the 42 springfield and did use a saber bayonet.


Brian Schwatka

[K Bartsch]

Folks,

Meet Alexander Zang, Co. H, 39th NYSV. He's wearing a private purchase sack coat, 1855 Rifleman's Belt, and a sword bayonet. It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.

http://www.ecs.gannon.edu/~frezza/39NYSV/alex_zang_cr.JPG

I'm having a tough time identifying what firearm he is carrying. The nose cap looks like an 1842 Springfield, but the weapon is too short. The Mississippi Rifle had a similar nose cap, but the rifle sling was much closer to the nose cap than the one in the picture. Did the 1855 Springfield come in a carbine? Even if it did, the nosecap incorrect. As for foreign imports, the front of the stock is too long to be a Garibaldi musket.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob Carter

Rob,
I can't see the lock to be sure, but it looks like it could be an M1819 Hall breechloading flintlock rifle.

Cordially,

[13thnhv]

Folks,

Meet Alexander Zang, Co. H, 39th NYSV. He's wearing a private purchase sack coat, 1855 Rifleman's Belt, and a sword bayonet. It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.

http://www.ecs.gannon.edu/~frezza/39NYSV/alex_zang_cr.JPG

I'm having a tough time identifying what firearm he is carrying. The nose cap looks like an 1842 Springfield, but the weapon is too short. The Mississippi Rifle had a similar nose cap, but the rifle sling was much closer to the nose cap than the one in the picture. Did the 1855 Springfield come in a carbine? Even if it did, the nosecap incorrect. As for foreign imports, the front of the stock is too long to be a Garibaldi musket.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rob Carter


Hi Rob, The image is reversed............everything is on the "other" side., but his sword was placed on the "right" side to compensate for the reversal of the image. Joe

[Minieball577]

Hi Rob, The image is reversed............everything is on the "other" side., but his sword was placed on the "right" side to compensate for the reversal of the image. Joe
The Sword bayonet and frog to hold it is sewn onto the 1855 rifleman's belt in a fixed position, so I don't really see how he moved it to the opposite side. Plus, to remove the buckle on this belt to reconfigure it is a pain in the butt, at the least...

[13thnhv]

I was just going by the way the coat is buttoned......the traditional "women's" direction...........

[Yellowhammer]

It could be a number of similar arms but the piece in question is very likely a US Model 1847 Miners & Sappers Musketoon:

It looks very similar to the M1847 Artillery musketoon (pictured) but the M&S used a saber bayonet similar to that pictured.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/images/14238.jpg

http://www.damonmills.com/images/Previously%20Sold%20Images/MS_Front.jpg

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Although the "important details" are obscured, I would have to agree that is a Whitney Model 1861 Percussion Navy ("Plymouth") Rifle based upon the upper band/nosecap and lower band with swivel. (Basically a "pirated" or basic copy of a French "carabine a tige.")

And yes, there was a U.S Rifled Carbine, Model 1855, but that is not it.
Imagine an iron mounted (with the exception of a brass nose cap) M1841 Rifle (well actually a M1847 Musketoon) with a cut down, 3/4 length, stock and a swivel-linked ramrod for cavalry. Being a cavalry arm, it was never designed to take a bayonet. And was the only M1855 series without a Maynard priming system.

The image is reversed as already noted (see the button line). The "rifleman's belt" is not put on upside down- the bayonet frog was stitched to the belt. Plus, the sliding brass keepers for the knapsack hooks have their "holes" on the top in their proper position- although he has slid them closer to the buckle.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[hireddutchcutthroat]

To my knowledge the 39th NY had Enfields and French Liege rifles.

[Johan Steele]

39th NY ; Light French or French Liege rifles in .577 in the 63-64 period.

[M.Latham]

Gents,

Given the approx. length from the front band to the muzzle and the sling swivel on the rear band my opinion is that it a "Brazilian Minie rifle".

My opinion only.

Mark Latham

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

A possibility for sure!

Although, the "tail" of the nosecap on a Brazilan "Light Minie" is more pointed, while the distance between the end of the ramrod capture and the upper front portion of the nosecap is shorter than on the Whitney?

Again, light and poor reference points on the image makes this fun...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[ferraius]

It is hard to say, but I think our man is holding a Belgian pattern 1842 short rifle.

Jon O'Harra

[JustRob]

Thanks to everyone for their input. I had faith the folks on the forum would have something to contribute. I will continue to do research to find other photographs or research that can contribute to the identification.

A few questions:

The musket looks like a Whitney Plymouth Rifle in several aspect. However, the lower band in the picture appears to have a small piece projecting forward like the middle band on a '42 Springfield, which is different from a Plymouth Rifle. There is also the question of why a light infantryman would be carrying a Navy issue Plymouth rifle.

The 1847 Miners & Sappers Musketoon looks similar to the musket in the photo, but the nosecaps differ. Zang's musket doesn't have a two-band upper band like the M&S musketoon.

A French "carabine a tige" is a plausible choice. The 39th NYSV/Garibaldi Guard were supposed to be a Bersaglieri-style regiment of light infantry. The Bersaglieri carried carbines witha sword bayonet and a spike on the stock for close combat. Here's a picture from the Crimea Campaign.
http://digilander.libero.it/fiammecremisi/fotounif/induno13.jpg

Assuming the carabine a tige is similar to the Belgian Liege musket, the Liege sounds like a possibility as well. Thanks also for the references to ordinance records. If you have a specific citation, I would appreciate it.

All this, of course, leads to another question. What currently reproduced musket looks most like a Belgian Liege? Adding to the complexity of the question is the near universal prohibition on two-band musket at reenactments.

Thanks for the input.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Indeed then... the Ordnance Reports fill in what the image cannot..
Likely then a French Model 1859 Short Rifle or a Belgian contract variant of the same.

The "Plymouth" is something of a French Model 1859 Short Rifle (Pondir) copy... ;-)
While a vast majority of Whitney "Plymouth" rifles were used by the Navy, they do occassionally show up in the Army- as with the 39th OVI (although some argue that the reference/quote "... Whitney rifles with bayonets" actually meant the U.S. M1841.

"What currently reproduced musket looks most like a Belgian Liege?"

None.

IMHO, one would need a minty original or go the route of restoring one to its CW appearance and condition.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[squibob]

[FONT=Times New Roman]It's interesting to note he's wearing his cap pouch on the left rather than the right.

Early photographic images (daguerreotypes, ambrotypes, ferrotypes & others) were not printed off of negatives. Ihe images were, if you will, mirror images that were chemically "frozen" onto the sensitized plate. Thus if you imagine that you are this fellow standing in front of a mirror, that is exactly how you would look if your cap pouch was on the right.

Many images, when they are reproduced for publication, are reversed... otherwise all of those left-handed Springfields would be driving people like us crazy. :)

I am also certain that there was a process for making non-mirror-mage images. I have seen quite a few original Gold Rush Dags of street scenes in the flesh and the signage is not reversed. I haven't a clue as to how they did it exactly, but they must have used a mirror (Gee, I figured that much out all by myself!)

Dave Peebles

P.S. This is my first post here and I hope all of this HTML code disappears in the final product