Gourds as canteens

[Old Reb]

I have seen references to gourds being used to carry water when canteens were unavailable. I would think that this was mostly early war, but am not certain. Also, how were the gourds carried? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

[KarinTimour]

Dear Tom:

I've got a gourd that I use to carry water at events -- mind you I'm a civilian, but I know they used gourds before and after the war, and I suspect that those soldiers who used them had done so as civilians.

The type of gourd you want is called a "bottle gourd" and it resembles what I've heard called "Martin gourd". Martin gourds, or at least the ones that I've seen have a large bulbous bottom, and taper towards the top, so you can hollow out the bottom part and put a hole in it and hang it in a tree to attract Purple Martins. My bottle gourd has a definate "hour glass shape" and holds a little over a quart of water. The upper portion holds about half a cup, the rest of it in the bottom section.

I was given mine as a gift when I was in Louisiana, so I got it when it had been dried, hollowed out and even had a cork in it. I tied a strip of homespun around it so that I could wear it around my shoulder and I've never looked back. Mine was treated with beeswax, which tends to loosen up and come free -- every so often I get a mouthful of wax clumps along with the water.

I don't know much about gourds, and this one is holding up very well after about 5 years of use, but I know that sooner or later it's going to bite the dust, so I've been gathering information about them.

Some have said that you need to let it dry on the vine in the fall -- don't know if this is true or not. I've also heard that one of the ways of loosening up the gourd innards in the bottom "section" of the hourglass is to jury rig a tube of some sort on the end of a Dremel and attach a piece of weed whipping string. Sounds good, but I've never tried it. Might be the answer to cleaning out gourds, or just something someone thought up to see if I'd believe them..... Once you get the innards out of the gourd, the jury seems to be divided on whether to warm up some beeswax and swish it down in there to seal it. Mine was and it's served me well.

If you do find someone who sells them, or if others know where I could get a replacement, I'm interested in all leads.

I can't stress enough how much I really bless the friend who gave me this -- it's one of my most favorite and useful reenacting tools.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Domestic Arts and Honorable Trades Society
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[tmdreb]

Karin,

Try Ebay for gourds. A search will bring up a good quantity of gourds that are already dried and ready for some final finishing for use as a canteen. They even have "canteen gourds" that really look a lot like a Federal smoothside tin canteen. Good news is, they sell for very cheap. If you wanted, you could set up a whole company with them for the price of one good tin canteen. It looks like you'd need to cut off the stem, cut a whole for a cork, and line it with beeswax before use. Personally, I'd rather just deal with the dried product than wait almost two years to let some dry before they can be used.

[Alamo Guard]

[QUOTE=tmdreb]Karin,
Just buy two gourds, cut the side off one and make the "camp dipper" for your water. They were used alot for water barrels and "ollas", clay water containers here in the southwest.

[KarinTimour]

Dear Tom, Phil and Dusty:

I scoped out the gourds on Ebay and I think you're totally right, this is the way to get something to start working on. While a dipper is a nice idea, I'm not often near open water sources where I could use it. I have learned that I must have a water source with me all the time, or I get caught up in whatever I'm doing and forget to drink enough water. Given the several layers of clothing I'm wearing, it's a set up for heat stroke. The first year of my reenacting, at every event they carted at least one or two women off in ambulances with heat stroke because they didn't drink enough water. I started to think that it was a normal part of civilian reenacting. It was a very salutory lesson -- the one event where I hadn't thought through an appropriate water container I definately didn't drink enough and got extremely dehydrated.

But I'll keep the gourd dipper idea in mind if there is an event upcoming where we have to furnish a kitchen, as there are some very interesting looking gourds on those ebay listings.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Domestic Arts and Honorable Trades Society
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[huntdaw]

This discussion has been interesting from the civilian point of view. I have also seen gourds used as water containers and they are fine indeed.

However, the original question regarded military use I believe and I am also curious as to whether there is documentation of such use. I would not be surprised to see early militia or units like the Missouri State Guard having individuals equipped with gourd canteens but is there evidence of that being so or any other use of such things later in the war?

[Yellowhammer]

Tom,

In your post, you state, "I have seen references to gourds being used to carry water when canteens were unavailable."

We had a lengthy discussion on this last year and nobody was able to come up with any documentation for the military use of "gourd canteens" so I'd be very interested to hear what references to said use you have found.

Thanks,

[Old Reb]

Mr. Stillwagon,
By Grand Daddy called it spliting hairs, but I will refer to it as semantics which is the meaning and changes of meaning pertaining to words. The word I used was "references" which means to mention, or to direct attention or thought, or to make an allusion, which is a casual mention of an incident either directly or by implication. I did not use the word documentation in my post. I would not have posted the question if I had had documentation, for there would have been no need for the knowledge since it was already at hand. As for the lengthy discussion made previously on this forum, I did not see that discussion and since the former information is no longer available, I had no knowledge that the discussion had been covered. The reference to gourds being used by Civil War soldiers was made in response to reading the guidelines for an event being posted on
the events forum. I certainly would like documentation concerning gourds being used. Since a reference can have many meanings and not to be confused with documentation, I was only asking a simple question and looking for help. I will certainly be more careful with my word choice when using this forum in the future. I will also do the best I can to see if I can find some documentation concerning the use of gourds to carry water by Civil
War soldiers. Thank you Mr. Stillwagon for the pendantic response to my humble post.

[tarwater_mess]

I have seen references to gourds being used to carry water when canteens were unavailable.


"Seen" implies documentation.

[Old Reb]

Seen implies I saw reference to it. As previously stated, the use of a gourd in place of a canteen was listed under the guidelines for an event in the event forum. Saying I have seen is the way many of us folks down in the deep South say things. I apologize for misleading anyone or getting their hopes up that I somehow had knowledge and documentation that they do not have. I am certain that if they had such documentation, they would have kindly answered my question in a civil manner and without implied insult. Now, back to the original question: I have seen listed under some guidelines that gourds are acceptable as a substitue for canteens. Does anyone know or have documentation to this reference. Humbly, I ask.

[M_Kupsch]

This discussion also found it's way a few years back on the 1st Battalion Army Of the Trans-Mississippi Battalion's Forum. John Schwartz came up with primary source references documenting the use of gourd canteens by the military. I take the liberty of bringing his post to this discussion.
************************************************** ******
John Schwarz
My gourd is bigger than your gourd
Fri Nov 1 16:59:52 2002
205.188.209.109

Boys,

I haven't kept up with the "Authentic Campaigner" website in months due to a lack of time, but I read John Piller's transplant with interest. I've never researched the subject of gourd canteens, but five or six years ago, I purchased a large gourd canteen from my pard, Chris Fischer, because of an account that I had read about one of the Texas cavalry units I study using one.

Private A. L. Nelms wrote to his wife from Fort McCulloch, Choctaw Nation (modern southeastern Oklahoma) on July 19, 1862 that, "I got a Spanish goard yesterday that wil hold over a half a galon of water already cleaned for $1...."

Nelms was in Company E, 34th Texas Cavalry from Fannin County, Texas--which is northeast of Dallas on the Red River border with Oklahoma. The entire regiment was raised from the north-central counties of Texas--soldidly Upper South, culturally--and so there is no reason to suspect that this practice was peculier to Texas because of the state's Hispanic influence or something. Indeed, Fannin County and all of the counties from which the 34th was raised were not really populated in large part until the decade before the Civil War. The settlers came mostly (like the Nelms) from Tennesse, Kentucky, and Missouri--and Virginia and North Carolina before that.

I am not going to pretend to enter this argument, because I don't care, but I would suggest that if one were truly interested in the subject, take the cultural approach and look at the Upper South and its material culture. I am sure you will find sufficient documentation for the gourd's use in the reenactment hobby for the purposes you suggested (i.e. civilian use and occasionally on a civilian volunteer), but in this respect, no one is in disagreement with Stillwagon (and I agree with his case for the most part--reenactors need to do more specific research, generally).

Fischer had the goard that I purchased from him (big damn goard) because he likewise found documentation for a Texas regiment that he likes carrying them (he is big on the 9th Texas Cavalry from the Fort Worth area, among others; that is the regiment to which it is attributed to, I believe). I'll see if he can contribute another example, if you wish. My account was published: Robert S. Weddle, editor, PLOW HORSE CAVALRY: THE CANEY CREEK BOYS OF THE THIRTY-FOURTH TEXAS (Austin: Madrona Press, 1974), 38. (This is a collection of primary sources from the Nelms family--members of the 34th TX Cav as well as material from the home front--edited and annotated by a descendent....
************************************************** *****
Take it for what's it worth boys, but if you want to tell Pvt. A. L. Nelms that he didn't have a gourd canteen because his letter to his wife isn't enough to document his using it while a soldier during the Civil War, then be my guest.

[Old Reb]

Thank you Michael for that documentation.

[M_Kupsch]

My pleasure sir. I believe the event guidelines you make reference pertain to the Living History we are sponsoring at Wilson's Creek. If you have questions regarding this event, please feel free to e-mail them to me at the e-mail address included in my signature.

[tmdreb]

Michael,

Thanks for your post. I had completely forgotten about that discussion myself. It sure is refreshing to see an actual answer to a question, rather than just a continued semantical debate about the wording of the question itself.

[58 lorenz]

Just a thought on gourds: The seeds are widely available from seed companies,and they are easily grown just about anywhere. They grow as a climbing vine,and in the fall,they are fairly dry and hard. You pick them and set them aside to dry for a while more.My wife is from Korea,and she used them for water bottles and dippers when she grew up way back in the hills.

Doug Price

[Yellowhammer]

Tom,

"Pedantic," is commonly defined as "Characterized by a narrow, often ostentatious concern for book learning and formal rules: a pedantic attention to details."

By that definition, I think that is an unfair characterization of my post.

That said, it is my job as moderator to keep the discussion on track as much as possible and enforce a modicum of proper historical process. In your post, you said you had seen references. My post merely asked you to provide those "references" to our membership.

Many thanks Mike for providing John's excellent post. Providing documentation is really the only way we can answer many of these questions.

[M_Kupsch]

I contacted Nic Clark and Don Smith (of TMD fame) to see if they had any references to the military use of gourd canteens. Submitted for your examination is Nic’s response:

“The John A. Logan museum in Murphresborh (sic), IL has John A. Logan's gourd canteen that he used during the Mexican War. Sure, it's not CW, but it's a gourd canteen being used in U.S. Military service. Then, there is an actual photograph of a Texan holding a gourd canteen. You can find this image in the book Portraits of Conflict: Texas in the Civil War on p. 34. The soldier's name is Williamson Milburn, 3rd Texas Cav., Co. K. This image was done of Mr. Milburn during the War.”

Unfortunately, I don’t have the book available so that I could scan the picture and attach it to this post, but at least we can be sure that, indeed, not only is there written documentation attesting gourd canteen usage by the military during the Civil War, but we have empirical evidence as well. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Radical Unionist]

Lets slow down here Mr. Yearby, I think your gettin a little too defensive. I take it Mr. Stillwagon was asking a fair question. I first thought you had some sort of doc. and were looking for supporting info, fair for us to think thats what you meant. I don't think anyone was picking on you cept maybe Mr. Mason. I've seen this sort of trash talk digress real poor in the real world, but at least a feller can stand there and back it up. Having it happen in the online world is kinda pathetic and pointless. I say we should wait to take offense untill a feller comes right out and says boo.

By the way I have never seen anything on gourds in the CW. Although I've heard plenty on them in Mex Am war. Maybe its a regional thing, did folks grow them much in Virginia and the mid-west?

For cleaning the insides out I've heard sand and pebbles shook up inside works good.

Jeff Boorom
Wide Awake and Pissed

[Old Reb]

Jeff, I slowed down a long time ago, and all is smoothed over between me and Mr. Stillwagon. As for no Civil War soldier using a gourd for a canteen, please read Mr. Kupsch's post. I did not take offense, and if I did, it was a momentary thing. Thanks for the info on cleaning a gourd. I will try what you suggest.

[Alamo Guard]

Here in south Texas gourds were grown alot and used alot. After they were harvested they were hung in the rafters for a year to dry. Small stones and pebbles were placed inside them and the children would roll them over in their hands to remove the "innards".
They were cut into bottles, dippers and cups etcc.. They were used as storage containers for small portions of dry goods. With advancement of glass and clay products, and better methods of shpments to folks to receive these products the gourds slowly became the birdhouses and table center pieces we see today.
I know there were other types of civilian canteens available. I have found whats called a miners canteen. Its a two quart copper with screw on zinc top. Its flat on the bottom so it could be set on the ground and round at the top,
Another widely used item for carrying water here in south Texas was both the animal skin "Bota" bag in various sizes, and the Lipan Apache way, using the intestines of a large animal and tying off the ends.
However I just cant see too many ladies using these at the next reenactment, as they were used mostly by the very poor hispanic community. If there is ever a reenactment for the 8th Texas Infantry though, what a sight they would be?

[Eric Burke]

Keith Baty (if he ever resurfaces) made a gourd canteen for his MSG impression a few years back, he might be able to add some insight.

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

Keith Baty (if he ever resurfaces) made a gourd canteen for his MSG impression a few years back, he might be able to add some insight.




I believe Jon Isaacson (sp?) did too.


John Pillers
TSM

[brown]

Does anyone know of any surviving examples of civilian owned canteens of the 1850's and 60's? While I know that many travellers would have depended on finding water periodically, I was wondering about those who wanted a little back-up. Thanks,
Lindsey Brown

[ley74]

Nine or ten years ago, while rehabbing one of the pre-1850 houses in Lynchburg, Virginia, two civilian "canteens" were found under the house. The were in fairly good condition, one resembling a larger Gardner and the other a smaller barrel holding about a gallon. Both are in the Lynchburg Museum, at the old Courthouse.

[Garrett Silliman]

Lindsey,

You may want to contact John Peterson of Ottercreek Tinware
http://mysite.verizon.net/ottertin/octinw1.html
I know he has copied several pre-war militia canteens and may have info on those used by civilians. Good luck, Garrett

[jgr1974]

If you are a poor southerner or refugee, a gourd would be perfect! There is a type called a "canteen gourd", or "tobacco box gourd". These were named as use for same. They average 6-8 inches in diameter, perfect for a canteen!

drill a hole, clean out the insides, and apply molten beeswax. Then make a sling. Cheap, and functional!

[jacobite8749]

A period bottle or jug with rope straps works fine for me. If you can get one that has wicker outside, even better. Go for simple rather than fancy.

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
In examining genre paintings, drawings, and photographs of agricultural wokers in the 19th century one tends to see a rather large amount of simple stoneware jugs with a handle being used to carry water. Rarely in pre-war store ledgers are canteens or other tin water bottle terminology listed.

I think for a "Typical Everyday Common" citizen's impression a period correct stoneware water bottle would be extremely correct.

Darrek Orwig

[C.R. Henderson]

Backwoodsman magazine had a really good article a few months back on growing canteen gourds and the person who wrote it cited her great [great?] grandmother as a primary source for info due to her growing them for Confederate troops in Virginia (now west Virginia) as a child. If I can find my copy I'll give you the issue no. so you can get it. Hopefully my wife hasn't "cleaned it up".
Basically, the gourds were grown neck-up and were placed between two staked boards (the boards were vertical and aprox 3' apart) and were allowed to grow in such a fashion until they could be de-seeded and cleaned and fitted with cork and strap. When finished, the gourds had flat sides and a neck that could be fitted with a cork or corn cob to be a serviceable canteen. As I said, I'll try to find the article.

Chris Henderson

[jgr1974]

Chris,

I remember the article! I am an avid reader of the Backwoodsman. It is a great all around magazine without the political over tones! Unfortuneately, my brother in law likes the magazine to. He lives in the Kentucky hills, and gives the name "hillbilly" true meaning. So I always give my copies to him after I read them. I will add, that growing gourds is a long process! It takes almost a year from planting to drying to get one. The time to find gourds is really over for the year. They are generally found by the box full at local fall festivals and craft shows. They can be bought for just a few bucks. They are on ebay as well, crafters make ornaments, baskets etc from them. They are a little expensive on ebay sometimes though, and one could spend as much for a gourd as a tin canteen!

[C.R. Henderson]

Alas, I have searched high and low and I think my wife is quite upset with me now (again) for putting the house in disarray (again) but no luck finding that article. I hate putting info up without the source or first-hand experience to back it up but it really was in there. Oh well. I also did a Google search on gourd canteens and got quite a few hits. Hope that helped, Lindsey.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Honestly, I haven't found enough information to say that citizens and particularly women and children ran around with portable water carrying devices.

However, since that is sometimes just nice to have or necessary, the best alternative I have found is to carry water in a jug or glass bottle. Place it in a basket and carry with you.

Others milage may vary...

[Mutt]

Afternoon all,

Here's another subject which tickled my brain just before Perryville. The Tavern was my watering hole that weekend, but what if it wasn't there and I was a lone, thirsty traveler or refugee?

I had a nice talk with Mrs. Crabb regarding the stoneware "ring jug" or "saddle horn" jug they are now selling. I was more then a few bucks short of being able to purchase one right then, unfortunately. It seemed a very practical container for the average workman. Here's a few links I dug up regarding them:

This one has some odd "facts" but the image is nice:
http://www.mintmuseum.org/craftingnc/02-02-001-c.htm

A great story I happened upon:
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/penl0698.htm

The reference to the companies 19th-century manufacturing, beginning in the 1840s, is a help.

I have just touched the tip of the iceberg and must ask: How authentic would they be for just anyone (middle class worker), besides a farmer, use?

I do have an opinion on civilian canteens. For one, why not tote a dipper or small cup to dip into a cool stream? I can see not having just an open bucket beneath a tree. I am a bit ignorant of all the details of civilian life during the mid-19th century, but do enjoy discussing possibilities . . . so humor me :)

Cheers!

[Cottoncarder]

Four words, "the gourd is my freind." Only a short time ago Emanuel posted an excelent piece on the subject. There was also the demijohn, a wicker covered glass jug which was easily acquired from a local merchant. Between the two, a gourd is a lot lighter, but must be carefully prepared.

Cut a hole in the top of a "pitcher gourd" and allowing only enough space for a cork to plug the hole. Fill with water and allow to sit for a few days. Remove all traces of seeds and pulp. Use a wire coat hanger to dislodge any particles. These are toxic folks! Line with Bees Wax. We are really good at growing gourds out here in the West in just about any shape from canteen to dipper.

You need to ask yourself the following questions:

Who am I?

What class am I?

Study the flora and fauna of the area. What resources did I have at my hands?

It is pretty easy for me. I'm lower class and live off the land.

[jgr1974]

The ring canteen-

Though not an aproved vender, a company called Sprinkle Pottery makes them and 18th and 19th century jugs as well. These are excellent quality! I have owned a jug from him, and wass very happy! He calls this a ring flask. It is listed for $16. I am unsure of size!

Here is a link

http://www.historicalpottery.com/Pottery/Jugs/tabid/67/List/0/CategoryID/4/Level/1/SortField/0/Default.aspx

[Vuhginyuh]

Stay away from the ring canteen. The reproduction shown is not what would be considered a 19th century firing and I have my doubts about the actual provenance of the things in general.

The brandy and the 19th century wares appear to be nice but ask to see the markings on the bottom first. Crazy markings can ruin a nice piece.

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
There's ample evidence of stoneware jugs most with a handle being used by citizen's in rural communities during the 19th century and even early 20th century as a portable way to carry water in the field. This is supported by a huge amount of genre paintings, sketches, written accounts, and photographs. There was a serious need for portable water during the 19th century as agricultural methods were extremely physically taxing.

Can anyone share any evidence of gourds or ring canteens being used by the typical citizen during the 19th century? They're cool but I just haven't seen many sources supporting their widespread use.

Darrek Orwig

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
One thing to remember it's much more productive say if you're a farmer hoeing corn to have a jug at the end of your row then having to walk 200 yards to the nearest stream or well for a quick drink of water. Same for scything hay, reaping grain, or bundling wheat...all are jobs that occurred in the heat of the summer and water was important then just as it is now in order to stay healthy. Another issue with just carrying a cup with you is that if you're working with draft animals it's easier to stop at the end of the row under a shade tree and give them a break while you grab a swig out of your jug instead of going through the work of unhitching a team from a plow or cultivator as you go down to the nearest creek or well that could be 10 yards away or 500+ yards away.

I say this with experience as someone who has farmed with draft animals and 19th century techniques.

Darrek Orwig

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Yes, I too would be curious of this ring jug. I see Ezra Barngoods selling them so maybe they can help. I will also seek further information and will let you know what I find.

I don't know about the yeoman farmer or even how slaveholders with less slaves achieved getting water out in the fields. However, large slaveholders typically used younger children 5-9 in bringing water out to the fields and that was brought out in buckets.

Again, the thing we have to remember is social status, place, etc. Most people were not outside as long as we are at events. When we are at historic houses we are mostly portraying people of middle and upper class backgrounds who would need to only worry about their labor force getting water as they would not be out cutting down wheat or milking cows.

A stoneware jug would be as inappropriate at a fancy dress ball as silk would be to slop the stalls of the horses. However, we have to sometimes make some concessions for the fact of the matter is we cannot wait til we get to the next stream or the next kind tavernkeeper.

[Vuhginyuh]

Sometimes called pilgrim bottles, ring jugs are a take off on early decorative Cypriot earthenware pieces that stood upright on a base. Small ring shaped oil bottles were also carried by medieval religious pilgrims. Later Rhenish copies, in grey stoneware, commonly date from the fourth quarter of the 19th century through the 1940’s. It is not uncommon to find small example with ring ears to attach a cord for the neck or shoulder.

The earliest traceable domestic ring jug example I have handled has a circa date of 1890.

The utilitarian assumption here it is that the ring form, having a large open surface area, keeps liquids in the vessel cool long after it has been filled (and then submerged in a cold creek to further chill it). This theory also exposes more surface area to hot air or sunlight, quickly reversing the cooling effects of the cold water submersion. All stoneware has excellent thermal qualities and does in fact keep cool things cool and warm things warm* longer than glass or metal. Shape and size does not matter as much as the thickness of the clay body walls. Thick sides are better insulators and this leads to the debunking of tale of the ring being perfect for a pommel. The potters that made these took great pride in turning out thin walled bodies, rendering ring jugs too fragile to stand up to the constant battering of the trail. The weight of the water certainly didn’t help. The saddle pommel myth is just that.

The fanciful ring form was very popular in the 1930’s and has become fashionable again with the renaissance of southern folk and country pottery. The popularity of the ring cannot be denied but its common use as a 19th century canteen is doubtful. The science doesn’t jive, nor does the archaeology.

&&&&&&&&&&&&

J.B. Cole Pottery Catalogue (Winston Salem: Meadearis Stamp and Printing Co., 1 June 1940)

Georgeanna Greer, American Stonewares: The Art and Craft of Utilitarian Potters (Exon PA: Schiffer Publishing Co., 1981)

Nancy Sweezy, Raised in Clay (Chapel Hill: UNC Press, 1984)

Charles Zug, Turners and Burners (Chapel Hill: UNC Press, 1986)**

&&&&&&&&&&&&

* I’ll be happy to open a thread on Victorian saltglazed stoneware hand warmers and we see can that whimsical pottery actually has a useful
function.

** Outstanding book!

[Citizen_Soldier]

Yes, I too would be curious of this ring jug. I see Ezra Barngoods selling them so maybe they can help. I will also seek further information and will let you know what I find.

I don't know about the yeoman farmer or even how slaveholders with less slaves achieved getting water out in the fields. However, large slaveholders typically used younger children 5-9 in bringing water out to the fields and that was brought out in buckets.

Again, the thing we have to remember is social status, place, etc. Most people were not outside as long as we are at events. When we are at historic houses we are mostly portraying people of middle and upper class backgrounds who would need to only worry about their labor force getting water as they would not be out cutting down wheat or milking cows.

A stoneware jug would be as inappropriate at a fancy dress ball as silk would be to slop the stalls of the horses. However, we have to sometimes make some concessions for the fact of the matter is we cannot wait til we get to the next stream or the next kind tavernkeeper.

Emmanuel,
When portraying people who are occupying a historic house, it's common sense that water would be acquired from a well in a pitcher and served in glasses. Wouldn't a fancy dress ball have refreshments available?

Agriculture was much more prevalent in life during the middle part of the 19th century then it is now. In the midwest even "town folk" generally had larger lots than many people do today and would have raised fairly large gardens and had livestock consisting of a milk cow, chickens, horses, and even hogs. Unless critter were doing it, lawns would be mowed with scythes and weeds were trimmed from fence rows with sickles. I've seen this in lower class and even middle class families residing in towns even when the family's wage earner is a store keeper, clerk, lawyer or a doctor. Now to clear it up, by town I'm obviously not referring to a city.

On another issue, I think it's apples to oranges if we compare the experience of slaves to white yeomen farmers, tenant farmers, and agricultural workers.

In short what I'm trying to get here at is agriculture and physical work was a way of life for many Americans during the middle part of the 19th century. The mechinzation of agriculture was just getting started and most farming techniques were still fairly labor intesive at this point, since most of the operations in this occupation occur on dry summer days it would make sense that water was needed for those performing the work. Further more there is ample documentaton of water being carried by those doing physical work. So, carrying a jug isn't going to be something foreign for most citizens during this time period.

I'm going to try to stop here...there is just so much we can go into on this topic.

Darrek Orwig

[Mutt]

Mr. Dabney, you took the words out of my mouth, simply ask the vendors selling the ring jug. I simply did one of those things and put my faith in the words of the Crabbs. In all honesty, that would do it for me only because hey, it's their business to sell authentic goods (still can't get over the great set-up at events :)).

Great point about time spent outdoors. Obvious, but something I hadn't thought about.

Mr. Orwig, I don't believe Emmanuel was comparing the experience of the slave to that of the farmers, but merely stating that he knows this was how large slaveholders got their water in the fields. Figuring out what the yeoman farmer etc. did for water in the fields or in outdoor, labor-intensive occupations/activities far from a water source is the question we're pondering.

Also, I do enjoy diving into this subject very much. I think that surely we can only go so far as to find the facts, state the concrete evidence and conclusions and enjoy the process of doing so. Heck, that's what this board in all about. :)

I'll be back. Hopefully with more fat to chew.

[Hank Trent]

Also, it occurs to me on the jug question, in typical agricultural use, I'm picturing the jug placed in a convenient location for the worker to go to at intervals, rather than used like a regular canteen and carried everywhere. Is that what we're talking about? Or are we picturing a jug being carried on the person like a military canteen?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[tmdreb]

Greetings,
One thing to remember it's much more productive say if you're a farmer hoeing corn to have a jug at the end of your row then having to walk 200 yards to the nearest stream or well for a quick drink of water.

I don't think he meant carried around like a canteen in this example.

[1stMo Drummer]

I was wondering if anyone knows about gourd canteens.How common,if at all,what kind of gourd,how they were made,etc...
I seem to remember reading somewhere that some Missouri State Guard troops used them but I can't remember where.
Thanks
Travis Franklin

[Vuhginyuh]

Travis, did you see this?

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337&highlight=civilian+canteens

[1stMo Drummer]

Very sorry,I looked but failed to do a search and missed that...Thanks
Travis Franklin

[Matthew.Rector]

Interesting thoughts about gourd canteens from the Mexican War.

The Twelve Months Volunteer or Journal of a Private in the Tennessee Regiment of Cavalry in the Campaign, in Mexico, 1846-7
By George C. Furber
Cincinnati: U.P. James, 1857
Page 127

Wednesday, September 30th. This was a fine cool morning. We were on the march at an early hour. Captain Porter, being sick, rode in one of the wagons. None of our lieutenants being present, and the orderly sergeant sick, the company marched to-day under the command of the second sergeant. The country passed over was fertile, as before but continually becoming more level, and consequently having but little variety in scenery. –The sun became hot, and water being scarce on the route, our Mexican gourds came in good use. These gourds were much preferable to canteens, for carrying water on the march; for water, in these would remain cool through the day of the hottest sun; while in the tin canteen, it became warm and unpleasant to the taste. This coolness of the gourd, is owing to the continual evaporation going on through the shell. They are convenient in shape and size, being mostly in the shape of the figure 8, and holding from one to two quarts. Round the small part of the gourd the strap is fastened, for suspending it to the side or the pommel of the saddle. Every traveler in this portion of Texas, that we met, had one. Most of our men had thrown away their canteens, and obtained one of these gourds. (Some of the regiments in the service were furnished with India rubber bags, or canteens, to carry water; but they are liable to the same objections as the tin ones, the water in them becoming warm.)

[arthurlee]

Great topic. I have nothing currently to reference the use of gourds in the war, but know from conversations with my G Grandmother that in Georgia they were used both as dippers and canteens or "water jugs". My wife grows several types, Bottle, Dipper and one called an Apple Gourd (Looks like a giant Granny Smith when still green). Cleaning them out is a difficult process. If anyone has a photo of one they have used, please share it as I would like to make a few.

Thanks for the post.

Art Maxwell
Shepherd Texas

[Matthew.Rector]

While doing some other research, I ran across the attached print from the Library of Congress. The fiddler in the image wears a bottle that has been fitted for traveling. What is in the bottle could be left for endless debate.

http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g06019

Note: The print dates from 1872. Moderators, if you feel that this strays to far from the 1860s discussion, please feel free to delete this post.

TITLE: [Power of music] / chromo. of Duval & Hunter, Philadelphia ; Jas. F. Queen after A. Dircks.
CREATED/PUBLISHED: New York : published by A. & C. Kaufmann, c1872.
CREATOR: Duval & Hunter.
RELATED NAMES: Queen, James, 1824-ca. 1877, artist.
FORMAT: Chromolithographs Color 1870-1880.
REPOSITORY: Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division Washington, D.C. 20540 USA
DIGITAL ID: (color film copy transparency) cph 3g06019 http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cph.3g06019

[Spinster]

Art,

I don't have one of those fancy cameras that allow me to upload images, but gourd water containers are pretty standard issue around my place---with the caveat that this is a purely civilian household.

Warning.......non-period instructions below:

In dealing with the cleanout task, here is one excellent aid. After your gourd is dry, and the hole cut, get a power drill, a bamboo stick, and a length of weedeater string. Pierce the bamboo stick and thread the weedeater string through it. Put the other end of the bamboo stick in the hole where the drill bit normally goes and tighten the chuck. Put the weedwhacker end inside the gourd. WIIIIIIIZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz. Shake gourd contents on floor.
Repeat until clean.
Pour some full strength bleach in there and let it sit awhile to eat out the last of the gourd crud.
Make a strap or string holder. Close hole with cork, stick, or rag.

Make a bunch--this thing will break without much provocation.

[Charles Heath]

Uncle Tom,

The info you want was posted on the FGLHA EZBoard Forum many moons ago, but was no doubt lost in the big EZBoard burp that cost 2 years of database. On one hand, at least you know the AC Forum is not the only place that sends good stuff into vaporland, and on the other hand, most of the folks who posted that type of info are now out of the hobby.

For your amusement, the ORs on CD have a couple of gourd mentions. The first is from the "industry" section of a delightful census of Navajos; however, it has nothing to do with military usage of gourds:

"Further steps have been taken to have them well supplied with pumpkin, musk and water melon, and squash seeds, all of the productions of which are peculiarly suited to the Indian taste and to the cultivation of which even the women and children pay great attention. They are also supplied with a species of gourd seed, which when grown attains extraordinary dimensions, and will supply the want of buckets, pitchers, &c. A considerable number of acres will be devoted to the cultivation of beans and peas, which in this region are very productive, and are regarded as one of the prime articles of subsistence."

Source: O.R.--SERIES I--VOLUME XLVIII/1 [S# 101]
UNION CORRESPONDENCE, ORDERS, AND RETURNS RELATING TO OPERATIONS IN LOUISIANA AND THE TRANS-MISSISSIPPI STATES AND TERRITORIES, FROM JANUARY 1, 1865, TO MARCH 31, 1865.(*)--#7

The census was accomplished by Captain Francis McCabe, First New Mexico Vol. Cavalry near the end of 1864.

The second quote has nothing to do with the use of gourds as canteens, but, instead as powder horns. This is a gourd use not frequently mentioned in our usual discussions:

"Major Hawes had purchased 1,000 fat hogs and a number of beef cattle, and was making preparations to salt them. My men were badly clad and badly armed, with not a knapsack, haversack, or canteen. They carried their powder in horns, gourds, and bottles. This was our condition when the enemy commenced the advance upon us. Retreat was inevitable, but there was too much public property to be abandoned without an effort to save it."

O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME IV [S# 4] CHAPTER XII.
NOVEMBER 8-9, 1861.--Engagement at Ivy Mountain and skirmish at Piketon, Ky.
No. 3. -- Reports of Col. John S. Williams, C. S. Army. This was from Col. Williams to General Marshall, dated November 13, 1861 from a camp at Pound Gap, VA.

Most of the time the interest in gourd canteens rises with the interest in MSG type events. Considering the amount and quality of equipment and horseflesh left behind by the MSG at Athens, one would think those boys were well heeled, but that may not always be the case.

[Emmanuel Dabney]

While looking up something else I found this brief reference to a jug for a slave:

"Gave out this evening a blanket, hat & stone jug to Henry & Booker. Henry received a shirt also."-Richard Eppes, June 8, 1858

[Californian]

You will find a photograph on page 146 of “Silver & Gold Cased Images of the California Gold Rush”. In that photo if you look to the right there’s a canteen hanging of the saddle. From what I can see it is a tin drum with convex sides.

I hope this helps someone.

Joshua Block

[Abrams]

Ahh... Resurrecting an older one.

Thanks for all the info here.

I am going to New Athens soon, and while issue canteens are allowed, I looked for really early war/civilian water carriers. I found a good bottle, but its a little small. After reading this, I decided to try a gourd.

I picked up a nice dried gourd and some hunks of beeswax at a craft market, opened up a nice drinking hole, and cleaned it out well.

My dried gourd is now lined with beeswax and is still holding water with nary a drop or soft spot forming after 12 hours.

If it makes another 12 hours, I'll make a sling for it. :)

[Abrams]

I got a gourd at a local craft fair, carved out a hole with an exacto knife just perfect for a cork I had, finishing it off with a round rasp. I then use a coat hanger and a long skinny pair of forceps to remove all seeds and dried debris inside the gourd. Once all loose flakes and gunk was removed, I rinsed all dust out and warmed it in an oven to speed the drying process. After a couple more days to ensure a dry inside, I warmed the gourd in an oven to prevent the wax from setting up instantly and then I melted about a cigarette pack size piece of beeswax and poured some into the warmed gourd, and swirled it around until the entire inside was coated with at least an 1/8" of wax. I burned my thumb covering the hole while getting the upper bubble coated. I corrected my ignorance with a small leather scrap on subsequent coats, heh.

It held water for 3 days with nary a leak or damp spots on the gourd. I am pleased. Here is a picture of it with the "sling" I made out of hemp rope utilizing a slip knot and sinew to bind the rope. It holds just shy of a quart.

First time trying to upload a pic, we'll see how it goes...

Edit: Yay! I don't know what to do for a "sling" yet, and have found no pointers anywhere yet. Any ideas are welcome :)



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