Parade Rest

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Here are some photos I dug up for another thread, of soldiers at parade rest.

[markj]

Greetings,

Okay, then, you'll enjoy these. Both are identified as depicting companies of the 21st Michigan Volunteer Infantry (probably at either Chattanooga or near Murfreesboro, 1863 or 1864--the exact date, location, and unit being a matter of debate). One unit is shown at the "Army Regulations" version of Parade-REST (interesting, given the relatively late date of the photo). The other image depicts a bizarre version of Parade-REST which may have been done strictly for the photographer. Draw your own conclusions.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Mark

Its funny that you posted those, because they were the photos I was looking for when I found the ones I posted. :sarcastic

[markj]

Hi Robert,

These particular images come from a series, all apparently taken in the same general location and on the same day, in either 1863 or 1864. There has been much confusion about them as exemplified in the fact that the images have been variously described as depicting troops of the 9th Indiana, 44th Indiana, 21st Michigan, etc. I have attached two more images of the series which can be found on-line at the National Archives website (www.nara.gov). Regretfully, it appears that NARA has not seen fit to put high-res "tiff" versions of their images on-line similar to those at the Library of Congress. This is a shame since there is a lot of interesting details that could be gleaned from doing so.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[JDR]

check out that officer in marks second post. bet he never got no lip...cept maybe from the drummer....lol

Darryl Robertson

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Whoaaaa! Talk about a monkey wrench!

Look at these three images.

Caseys, Hardees, and a wierd hybrid of both!

[Vuhginyuh]

Rest Vs Parade Rest?
Do the images represent the difference, if there is one?

[markj]

Whoaaaa! Talk about a monkey wrench!

Look at these three images.

Caseys, Hardees, and a wierd hybrid of both!

Actually that "weird hybrid" (photo on the far right) is perfectly legal: It's the "Army Regulations" version of Parade-REST. Check out the Revised Army Regulations of 1863, para. 335, page 50.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Swiss Mason]

Actually that "weird hybrid" (photo on the far right) is perfectly legal: It's the "Army Regulations" version of Parade-REST. Check out the Revised Army Regulations of 1863, para. 335, page 50.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

Mark,

Several of those pictures are, in fact, (as you noted) of the 44th Indiana. For what it is worth, they were taken in Chattanooga sometime between February and June of 1864. Since there are leaves on the trees, I think the time is really from March to June. There are several of these pictures, and as you indicated previously, they have been misidentified as units other than the 44th Indiana. In most instances there is what I call a "formal" pose and an "informal" pose. So, those who look at all of these photographys think there are more companies pictured than there really are.

The reason I have narrowed down the time of the pictures is because I know the names of the men in Co. H's photo (the one with the drummer on the left by the officer, with the barn behind them). One of these men was not in service before Feb. and one was dead by June.

Talk about a hybrid, the guys in Co. H have a position that is not in any manual of which I am aware. Are you saying this is something from the USAR 1863?

Best regards.

Mike Clay

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Actually that "weird hybrid" (photo on the far right) is perfectly legal: It's the "Army Regulations" version of Parade-REST. Check out the Revised Army Regulations of 1863, para. 335, page 50.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

Bingo! Good eye Mark.

[DougCooper]

One of the salient features of parade rest today is that it is meant to be formal, yet easier on the troops standing in ranks. Casey and Hardee's versions of PR are no different in terms of balance or ease of maintaining for a long period of time in ranks, unless you believe having to hold the rifle in both hands is more tiring than in the crook of the arm.

This begs an interesting question - when a manual was adopted, such as the move from Hardees to Caseys, was there some kind of executive summary of changes that was distributed to the troops? At what level was it distributed? Division, brigade, regiment? I would imagine changes were adopted at least as high as Brigade level as there would have been nothing that would made the commander more annoyed than his 4 regiments using 2 different versions of parade rest ;) Has anyone ever seen an adoption circular with a deadline?

Great photos!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

This begs an interesting question - when a manual was adopted, such as the move from Hardees to Caseys, was there some kind of executive summary of changes that was distributed to the troops? At what level was it distributed? Division, brigade, regiment? I would imagine changes were adopted at least as high as Brigade level as there would have been nothing that would made the commander more annoyed than his 4 regiments using 2 different versions of parade rest ;) Has anyone ever seen an adoption circular with a deadline?

Great photos!

Doug and all

As we can see in the photos that Mark posted, out of four photos there are three different types of parade rest being used. All in the same time period and in the same geographical area.

[Vuhginyuh]

Rest Vs Parade Rest?
Do the images represent the difference, if there is one?

I ask again...Rest or Parade Rest ( informal / formal ) ?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I ask again...Rest or Parade Rest ( informal / formal ) ?


Garrison

They are all at parade rest.

[markj]

One of the salient features of parade rest today is that it is meant to be formal, yet easier on the troops standing in ranks. Casey and Hardee's versions of PR are no different in terms of balance or ease of maintaining for a long period of time in ranks, unless you believe having to hold the rifle in both hands is more tiring than in the crook of the arm.

This begs an interesting question - when a manual was adopted, such as the move from Hardees to Caseys, was there some kind of executive summary of changes that was distributed to the troops? At what level was it distributed? Division, brigade, regiment? I would imagine changes were adopted at least as high as Brigade level as there would have been nothing that would made the commander more annoyed than his 4 regiments using 2 different versions of parade rest ;) Has anyone ever seen an adoption circular with a deadline?

Great photos!

Hi Doug,

Word was undoubtedly passed around in a variety of ways among which the two most common were, as you mentioned, "circulars" or, alternatively, general orders. Regimental and company order books at the National Archives are filled with these directives. I've never seen a circular of the type you mentioned but I have seen general orders unequivocally stating what tactical manuals were to be used within divisions and brigades.

I found examples of these in the regimental books of the 34th Illinois. Dating to November/December 1861, Gen. Alex. McD. McCook, the divisional commander, issued a general order stating that only "USI&RT" was to be used for regimental drill and "Scott's" was to be used for brigade evolutions. General R. W. Johnson, commander of the brigade in which the 34th IL was a part, issued a follow-up order stating as much.

What makes the above orders even more interesting is that the 32nd (German) Indiana was in the same brigade as the 34th Illinois...and at this time it allegedly incorporated elements of "Prussian" or "German" drill into its regimen!

Go figure.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[JustRob]

Aren't you using the wrong terms here. I understand there to be three positions:

Parade rest - Soldiers remain in position and take a uniform pose.

In place rest - Soldiers must keep one foot in position and can take any pose they want so long as the one foot stays in place

Rest - Soldiers can fall out of formation so long as they remain in the general vicininty.

The position we are seeing in the photos is "Parade rest", whether it's Casey's, Hardee's, or Army Regulations. Arguing the position is "Rest" doesn't even seem to apply. Am I missing something?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Aren't you using the wrong terms here. I understand there to be three positions:

Parade rest - Soldiers remain in position and take a uniform pose.

In place rest - Soldiers must keep one foot in position and can take any pose they want so long as the one foot stays in place

Rest - Soldiers can fall out of formation so long as they remain in the general vicininty.

The position we are seeing in the photos is "Parade rest", whether it's Casey's, Hardee's, or Army Regulations. Arguing the position is "Rest" doesn't even seem to apply. Am I missing something?


Rob

The topic of the thread is "Parade REST". I dont see anybody arguing anything. We are just digging period images of the three dominant styles of Parade REST. No more no less. Sometimes it is just great to "geek out" on images that you have seen a million times, and discuss them with knowedgable people you normally dont get to see or have never even met. :wink_smil