More Confederate Prisoners.

[ThehosGendar]

Gents,

While again scanning through images, I noticed an amazing cluster of soldiers in the far corner of the image, "Richmond, Va. Residence of Jefferson Davis (1201 East Clay Street)]." The LOC doesn't give any more specifics other than it was taken in 1865, but based on the equipage of the men in the snippet, I would assume it to be right after the evacuation and surrender.

http://www.3nj.org/jeffdavishouse.jpg

http://www.3nj.org/rebpris.jpg

It appears to me that the soldier with the lighter colored jacket at right is wearing a horseshoe blanketroll over his knapsack, and from the reflection, the man to his right has a groundcloth as the top layer of his roll. It also looks as if the soldier at far left is leaning upon a sword (or walking stick).

I submit it now for your edification and discriminating observation!

[Jimmayo]

Some nice hats in that picture. A few look almost new.

[tmattimore]

Also of note they are all shod. One frock coat visible.
Tom Mattimore

[markj]

Hi,

Also check out that circa April or May 1865 image showing recently paroled Confederate troops lounging around the Washington statue in Richmond. Some of them are wearing what appear to be recently-issued uniforms. I'm pretty sure this image appeared in the Time-Life CW series but it may also be at the same site you're exploring.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[ThehosGendar]

There were two images taken from slightly different angles of the parolees gathered around the Washington monument in Richmond. The LOC has them dated April 1865.

Some strewn gear. It looks like some tin mess kit at left.
http://www.3nj.org/strewngear.jpg

http://www.3nj.org/reb1.jpg

http://www.3nj.org/reb2.jpg

[NY Pvt]

Jason, I saw the post of the site where you found many of the images at that you post. Do you find all of these there? I always seem to find the same couple hundred. How do you zoom in that much? Is it a computer program you have? On the website I can get a large photo but nowhere near that zoom. These are some neat photos. Thanks

Also, the last reb picture there, isn't he the same guy standing all the way on the left in the picture above it? He is wearing the same "thing" around his neck and same jacket. However the top picture he is wearing a kepi. And both times he is chewing a wad of tobacco.

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Hi Dane,

When I go to the LOC site, I right-click "view uncompressed TIFF file" then save it to one of my folders. From there, I open it with either Adobe or Photohouse. Your average photo program should do the trick. Then you can cut out a portion of the image, select "crop to selection," (or something the like) to make it suitable for posting here. Hope that helps! I am in earnest,

[DougCooper]

Notice all the knapsacks in the first photo - Fed double bags or Mex War designs? They all appear to have chest straps so that eliminates the Isaac & Campbell. Fantastic stuff that deserves to be published in any new uniform book.

[Reserve]

Doug,

I think they are Mexican War or some other single bag with "H" style straps. The shoulder straps don't appear to be 1 3/4" - 2" wide as on the double bags I have examined. Also, it looks like it is a single chest strap perhaps without even buckle adjustment. This would appear to match up with some other researching (on Mexican War knapsacks) I am trying to do right now.

[ThehosGendar]

Ethan,

I agree... those knapsacks certainly look to have a single chest strap.

Also, does it look like the soldier to the far left with the sword/walking stick is wearing an English pattern cartridge box?

Hallo Dane,

No, that's not the same guy, although it could possibly be his doppleganger. They are wearing opposite colors. I just cut up parts of the same image to make it easier to put up on the board:

http://www.3nj.org/monugroup.jpg

Neat that the soldier standing closest to the camera has a pipe put through his buttonhole and a tobacco pouch hanging from his button.

[DougCooper]

Vests, knapsacks, well shod, not ragged...most clean shaven. Either these boys have had access to 3 squares a day, tailors, showers and barbers or they were garrison troops...

..or the myth of the ragged rebel takes another hit...and the Richmond Depot stands a little taller.

[Yellowhammer]

That's an excellent question...

My suspicion is that they are soldiers on their way home post-Appomattox and seeing the sites. Many Confederate soldiers worked there way back to Richmond on their way to pick up transportation. For example, RT Coles of the 4th Alabama went to Baltimore before heading home to Huntsville.

On a uniform note, I'm interested by the number of jean uniforms evident. As we get later into the war, I think we sometimes allow the English kersey to overwhelm our ANV impressions but field images from mid-1864 certainly appear to show a mixture of what is likely to be both kersey and jean of varying shades in the ranks.

And Doug, I agree with both your last two points. I definitely think the efforts made by the CS Central QM cannot be overstated. To start from absolute scratch in 1861 and be supplying whole armies in quantity and quality so quickly is nothing short of amazing. Sure, there were fits and starts and periods of want, but current research is certainly banishing the ragged rebel more and more to the confinds of mythology.

[DougCooper]

John - an interesting thing about us Americans - sometimes we do much better when there is no bureaucracy in place to impede innovation. From the CS Central QM to the CS Navy, it's pretty impressive what you can do in an emergency, especially without a "we've always done it that way" mentality.

Kind of like our hobby :D

Was talking to Mike Hendricks the other day on the ratio of jean to kersey coming in to the RD in 63-65. Beginning in mid 63, you have large receipts for incoming imported cloth but even at it's height, Mike believes the ratio was about 60% jean/40% kersey based on the QM's own records. It would be interesting to note if the RD followed the same path as the Houston Depot, with kersey going mostly to jackets and jean to trousers. As the Taits started to come in this would have been an addition to the mix, vice a replacement for jean, as jean wool uniforms were pumped out to the bitter end based on photos and surviving examples.

Can anybody discern type jackets in the above photos (thanks Jason!)

[courier]

Comrades,
I cannot quiet the small voice that keeps saying "Government Clerks".These gentlemen do not have the appearence of troops from the trenches at Petersburg or the slow retreat from same.They are all clean,neat and very well dressed,perhaps nattily.They may have been issued marching kit to defend Richmond and then retreated with the army.Maybe not.overall a most interesting image to ponder.
Regards,Rick

Full name, please - Mike Chapman

[BobDenton37thVA]

Also of note they are all shod. One frock coat visible.
Tom Mattimore

To paraphrase Les Jensen, the best chance of seeing a well-supplied, consistently uniformed Confederate army would have been at the Appomatox surrender.

BTW- these are great photos! What a find! Thanks for posting them.

(PS-How about some enlagements of the other fellows standing in the second set as well.)

Your servant, et c.,
Bob Denton

[BobDenton37thVA]

Sure, there were fits and starts and periods of want, but current research is certainly banishing the ragged rebel more and more to the confinds of mythology.[/QUOTE]

Well John, a bit more than "fits" I think. The entire period of Jackson's Valley Campaign through the fall of 1862 was, arguably, one long "supply ebb" for the AoNV. Similarly, Bragg's KY Campaign was a major supply ebb as well for the AoT. Interestingly, during the Gettysburg Campaign we have numerous accounts of poorly shod, or unshod, CS troops, many of whom have uniforms in bad repair. This is especially interesting, in that the first large scale issue of government clothing listed in the CSRs for many regiments appears in 1st Quarter 1863!

But "ragged rebels"? Nahhh....Les Jensen, Ross Kimmel and others torpedoed that concept back in the late 1980s.

Regards,
Bob D.

[Moonshine]

Jason,

Thanks for taking the time to get those photos and enlarging them.

Now, have you found a picture of dead confederates lined up for burial after Spotsylvania? Do you know the one I mean? The lad nearest the camera has his left foot over his right and the one next to him has his trousers bloused in his socks and is missing a shoe! Those guys look YOUNG! Some of the other poor fellows have whiskers so maybe they were older.

Jim Ross

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Jim

One reason for the soldier you spoke of loosing his one shoe, may have been the obvious trauma that the soldier faced at his death. Something akin to people in car accidents loosing there shoes. Just a thought.

[markj]

Greetings,

If you haven't already thought of it, and have access to the images, you might also want to zoom in on those photos made of Confederate prisoners in the "Punchbowl," which are discussed in William Frassanito's book "Lee and Grant."

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Moonshine]

Mark/Robert,

Mark - Can you refresh my memory on those images? I recall that book but not all the pictures.

Robert - I was thinking besides that the trama from the wound but the dragging of the body to the spot where he rests at the time of the photo (which might explain some of the mud on the shins from the poor kid in the foreground). Under close magnification, it looks like the shoes is only held with a string or leather lace.

Jim Ross

[markj]

Greetings,

Here is the Belle Plain VA POW image (one of several made) as produced by www.zazzle.com and offered for sale on Ebay. The "zazzle" images are digitally-enhanced and absolutely awesome:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3651804827&category=20139

Here's one showing Confederate POWs at the Chattanooga Rail Depot in 1864:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2216012487&category=125

Here's one showing the execution of Henry Wirz (of Andersonville notoriety):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3265224557&category=37896

As added bonus attractions, here are their versions of a) that famous image showing Confederate dead along the Hagerstown Pike at Sharpsburg and b) Confederate dead at Gettysburg:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3651804660&category=20149

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3651812561&category=2211

Definitely take a look at the rest of their images on eBay--you'll never look at these photos the same way again.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[ThehosGendar]

Those zazzle guys are doing exactly what I'm doing - downloading high resolution images from the Library of Congress. Is what they're doing legal, without giving credit to the Library or doing so without their permission? It'd sure be nice if I could print out images I downloaded and sell them for $10 a pop.

Back to the prisoner images:

http://www.3nj.org/rebpris2.jpg

This is the maximum zoom I can achieve without it getting pixelated and blurred. A few points of interest:

1) Cuff trim.

2) This coat is the strangest out of the bunch. It's a weird almost a short jacket, almost sack coat.

3) As Tim Mattimore noticed earlier, this soldier is wearing a frock coat.

4) Strange animal. Perhaps a small turkey or emu.

I'm glad you've all enjoyed these images. I know a few of you asked about images of battlefield dead, but I'm a bit skittish about putting those up. The extra high resolution makes these much, much more gruesome. I anyone wants to see them, e-mail me : thehosgendar@optonline.net

In other high-resolution image news, the pictures from Mars are incredible (I'm also a space nerd as well). The really interesting thing is that the rocks in Gusev crater are smooth and not jagged as were the rocks from the Pathfinder landing site, which may indicate water erosion and not wind erosion!

[markj]

Greetings,

I'm not sure what "zazzle" has done vis a vis permissions from the LoC, etc. although, given that they are selling their wares on eBay and elsewhere for all to see and buy, I suspect they have indeed been in contact with them. This is from their website:

Special Collections
Our unique, on-demand printing capabilities are now being leveraged by world-renowned museums, corporations, institutions, and libraries, who are making their collections available in the Special Collections section. Many of the images you'll encounter in the Special Collections section have never before been available to the general public. The Zazzle Special Collections section is quickly becoming one of the most important destinations for spectacular, historically significant images and products on the Internet

Otherwise, shucks, beats the hell out of me. I sent a couple I noted to John Peterson ("Otter Creek Tinware") and he really liked them--they showed details of tin cans and tinware he had never noticed before.

As for the Mars pics, it's a "good news/bad news" situation for me. The good news is that the probe's camera is working fine...but the bad news is that the pics we're getting show what appears to be Osama bin Laden's backyard.

Yours, &c., &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[hireddutchcutthroat]

It apears to me that #2´s jacket is the same as #1´s but he has a haversack that is making the jacket look wierd.

[Dingus]

I'm glad you've all enjoyed these images. I know a few of you asked about images of battlefield dead, but I'm a bit skittish about putting those up. The extra high resolution makes these much, much more gruesome.

But these images of the deceased are a source of non-studio photographs of confederate soldiers in the field, which are not as readily available as pics of union troops in the field. (Overlooking that some soldiers have been robbed of their outer clothing and shoes).

After searching the LOC for prisoner, dead, wounded, burial etc., except for a few photos where death came from an artillery shell instead of a minie ball, the images seem no worse than what I've seen on the front page of the NY Times. But then, just finding the photos after a search is different from posting them here, and it's quite possible that some gentler people than myself would be upset....so I guess I've just talked myself into agreeing with your decision :)