General Lee's Rank?

[Dale Beasley]

During this stage of the War,(OIF2)... we find ourselves living a boring garrison life. Some that I am serving with ate breakfest this morning......General Lee became the subject....and a question presented that no one could answer....
We all thought General Lee was a LTG.....but pictures of him showed only LTC rank.......was there a reason to this?

[AzTrooper]

Hi Dale,
Everything I have ever read states that Robert E. Lee wore the marking for the rank of Colonel because it was the rank that he had earned in the Federal army prior to the Civil War.He was not at all concerned about superficial things such as making a big deal out of showing his rank. Everyone knew that he was the commander,he appears to have been uncomfortable when folks made a big to do about him, He almost seems to have been embarrassed by these kinds of things, well maybe not embarrased, perhaps saying that he was only concerned about the job of defending his country and gaining its independance, and that the recognition and glory was due to God not him.This is my understanding from all that I have read, if I am wrong I sincerely apologise.
Sincerely, John Rogers

[Dale Beasley]

John,
I stand corrected.....three stars mean COL........we had discussed the same ideas that you presented........they make good sence to me........just wondered if there were anything written on the subject.......for unless I can point to proof......I have a COL from Virginia, over here, that will not believe it.......help me guys.

[RyanBWeddle]

John,
I stand corrected.....three stars mean COL........we had discussed the same ideas that you presented........they make good sence to me........just wondered if there were anything written on the subject.......for unless I can point to proof......I have a COL from Virginia, over here, that will not believe it.......help me guys.

Indeed, most wartime images of Lee are shown with him wearing three stars on his lapels. I believe this was done as a "point of personal privledge". I don't think it had to do with any previous rank. Other CS generals of divisions and corps also wore only three stars on their field uniforms. Several examples attached.

Lee had only been a full bird Colonel of the 1st US Cav. for a little over a month (March 16) upon his resignation April 20th, 1861. He had left Texas that February as a Lt. Col. which was his rank upon arrival in D.C., where he was offered the command of U.S. forces only a month into his Colonelcy (April 16).

On June 1, 1862 Lee assumed command of Army of Northern Virginia, where he remained till wars end.

In all official correspondance through the O.R. & etc. he is only referred to as "General", as far as I can view.

It wasn't until February 9, 1865 that he issued his first general order as Commander-in-Chief of all remaining CS Forces.

I invite you to visit this site for some great images of General Lee:

http://www.generalsandbrevets.com/sgl/leere.htm

and his official papers are available at Washington & Lee Univ:

http://miley.wlu.edu/LeePapers/

[FC Barlow]

Although he only wore the rank of Confederate colonel during the war (3 stars on the collar - the last rank he held in the US Army), Robert E. Lee was first commander of all Virginia forces with the rank of VA militia colonel from April 23, 1861 through July 1861. During this time he was promoted to brigadier general in the CSA on May 14, 1861 and then promoted to full general a month later on June 14, 1861. Although the rank of full general is 4 stars in the US Army, CS officers only wore three stars in a wreath on their uniform. There was no insiginia distinction for the various levels of general officer on the CS uniform. The button groupings usually displayed the distinction (two for BG, three for MG, and I have not seen any CS officers wearing four buttons for the rank of Lt. Gen). In most photos of Lee throughout the war, he wore the rank of CS colonel but had the button groupings of a brigadier general.

Lee commanded the Army of Northern Virginia starting on June 1, 1862 through the end of the war on April 9/12, 1865 but was promoted to the position of General-in-Chief by the Confederate Congress on February 6, 1865, giving him command of ALL CS forces. He was still a 4 star general. Many historians doubt that Lee was able to exert any control over other CS armies with this new position - and then the war ended 2 months later - and General Lee became civilian Lee.

[FC Barlow]

Ryan -

If you notice on John Bell Hood's uniform, the middle star on his collar is larger than the other two - which denotes the rank of a general officer. If we know the date of the photo, we could figure out what specific rank he held at the time - my guess is either Brigadier or Major General (1862-1863). Some CS general officers wore their rank insiginia this way instead of the wreath around the stars.

Others, like AP Hill just wore the rank three stars of a CS colonel - probably more for the convenience of not puting the wreath of their collar. Who knows?!

Todd

[markj]

Hi,

With all this in mind, I have attached an extract from the Richmond VA "Semi-Weekly Enquirer," 26 April 1864, which you might find interesting. This discusses the presentation of embroidered rank "wreaths" to R. E. Lee by some young ladies. Be warned this file is in Adobe pdf and is pretty large.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[FC Barlow]

On a side note, the rank of 4 star general would not be created in the US Army until 1866 when US Grant became the first full general or 4 star general in American history. As you know, Grant was only a Lt. General or 3 star general during the war.

As stated above, the CSA had the rank of 4 star general officers (Lee being one of them, among others) BUT the insignia was only three stars in a wreath for all general officer ranks.

Todd

[FC Barlow]

Sorry for the messages - last one!

After some further research it seems that Lee was made a Major General in the Virginia Militia on April 23, 1861 - not a Colonel in the VA Militia as I previosly stated. He was a full colonel in the US Army before this appointment, but resigned that rank when he went with Virginia of course. That rank insignia would have been an eagle.

Lee was then promoted to Brigadier General in the Confederate States Army on May 14, 1861 then to full general (4 star rank) on June 14, 1861 and held this rank until the end of the war. His new position of General in Chief of all CS forces did not change his rank of general.

Just clarifying things...

[Tom Ezell]

As a small aside, the Regular Army of the Confederate States recognized only the rank of "general" above that of colonel, hence the one-insignia-fits-all of the stars and wreaths. (Regulations for the Army of the Confederate States, Article II, Para. 4)

The Provisional Army of the Confederate States (P.A.C.S., the Confederate volunteer service) established the grades of brigadier, major, and lieutenant general of volunteers. All wore the same collar insignia, with the exception that the regulation double-breasted dress coat for brigadiers had two rows of eight buttons, set in pairs; while that for major generals had two rows of nine buttons, set in groups of three. Confederate lieutenant generals' coats tended to follow the design of the coats for major generals. Interestingly, the CS uniform regs only describe a standard for the brigadier's coat, in keeping with the single general officer rank prescribed for the regulars.

Lee, like many other general officers, took the option of acquiring and wearing a uniform that met with his personal sensibilities and self-image... not unlike others who tended to adopt a flashier get-up.

Tom

[Dignann]

In 1980, Edward D.C. Campbell, Jr. wrote an article entitled "The Fabric of Command: R.E. Lee, Confederate Insignia, and the Perception of Rank," which appeared in The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, v.98, no. 2, (April 1980), pp. 261-190.

Campbell analyzed all known photographs and images of Lee in his uniform, along with postwar scultpures and monuments. Except for a few engravings that appeared in some periodicals, all depict Lee wearing a CS colonel's insignia. Campbell does note that while Lee wore the three stars on his collar, he did sport two rows of eight buttons placed in pairs down the front of his coat -- the number and arrangement of buttons denoting a general.

Campbell also lists some other CS generals who were known to opt for three stars sans wreath: Joseph E. Johnston, Rooney Lee, Bryan Grimes, and George H. Steuart. Both Grimes and Steuart wore the insignia of colonel but the sleeve braid of a general.

In the end, Campbell ponders why Lee chose not to wear the rank of general. He discusses the idea that perhaps it was a reflection of his prewar rank in the US Army. However, given the fact that Lee never explained himself on the matter, and no concrete evidence has surfaced to answer the question, Campbell concludes it was simple personal preference on Lee's part and the fact that personal preference among CS generals of what they wore was quite prevalent.

Eric

[marine05]

On a side note, the rank of 4 star general would not be created in the US Army until 1866 when US Grant became the first full general or 4 star general in American history. As you know, Grant was only a Lt. General or 3 star general during the war.

As stated above, the CSA had the rank of 4 star general officers (Lee being one of them, among others) BUT the insignia was only three stars in a wreath for all general officer ranks.

Todd
Check, Grant held two firsts, the first GO in the American Service to hold the rank fo LtGen since George Washington and the first "General of the Army" (not armies) and to wear 4 stars.

I had always presumed that Lee was considered a General, as all the others were referred to as LtGen, MajGen or BGen.

An interesting story depicting confusion of rank designations between the two armies operating on the U.S. continent during the ACW is during the battle of the wheat field, Confederate troops killed a Federal MajGen, however they, upon looking at his straps, figured they had not killed anyone important as he only had two stars, thus they figured he was a Major!

s/f

DJM

[FC Barlow]

DJM:

Lee was not "considered" a general, he indeed was a full general in the CSA (4 stars). Sorry, semantics...

Others held the rank of full general in the CSA - Samuel Cooper, Braxton Bragg, Albert S. Johnston, Joseph E. Johnston, etc.

Regards,

Todd

[msmjr]

Seeing as to how – in my opinion, of course – this discussion is forced to rely on a lot of subjective thought, there are some potential influences to consider as well... (This is not to say that the below-included factors DID contribute, but such contributions might not be out of the realm of possibility...)

Gen Lee was exposed to pictures and in some cases, the live version of...

- Likenesses (painted or printed) of American Hero Lt Gen George Washington, a wearer of three stars.
- Breveted Lt Gen Winfield Scott, a wearer of three stars.

It might be reasonable to speculate a correlation between his own modesty, his brief Colonelcy, the CS’s “3-star” colonel rank and its near sameness with a CS General’s insignia, and exposure to the above-mentioned “3-star” wearers.

Lots of potential connections between “three stars here” and “three stars there.” Though I am down here in the peanut gallery, the potential for these social influences to aid in a decision is certainly plausible...

Regards,
-Mike Montgomery

[markj]

Since we're talking about R. E. Lee, some of you might enjoy this finding aid from the Museum of the Confederacy:

http://www.moc.org/images/Soldier_Letters/Leecollection.pdf

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Check, Grant held two firsts, the first GO in the American Service to hold the rank fo LtGen since George Washington and the first "General of the Army" (not armies) and to wear 4 stars.

I had always presumed that Lee was considered a General, as all the others were referred to as LtGen, MajGen or BGen.

An interesting story depicting confusion of rank designations between the two armies operating on the U.S. continent during the ACW is during the battle of the wheat field, Confederate troops killed a Federal MajGen, however they, upon looking at his straps, figured they had not killed anyone important as he only had two stars, thus they figured he was a Major!

s/f

DJM

Someone correct me if I am wrong....but I believe "General of the Army" is reserved for 5 star generals only. Of these only a few generals ever were, Eisenhower, Marshall, Bradley and a not even a handful of others.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[markj]

This comes straight from the horses's mouth:

http://www-perscom.army.mil/tagd/tioh/rank/goa.htm

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[marine05]

DJM:

Lee was not "considered" a general, he indeed was a full general in the CSA (4 stars). Sorry, semantics...

Others held the rank of full general in the CSA - Samuel Cooper, Braxton Bragg, Albert S. Johnston, Joseph E. Johnston, etc.

Regards,

Todd

However, you have to think like a professional soldier. Any flag officer, general or admiral can be called either general or admiral and it is considered a proper form of familiar address. However, in formal correspondence or address their proper rank Brigadier, Major or Lieutenant would precede the word general, unless of course the bearer was in fact a General. To go on, in the Marine Corps only buck Sergeants are called Sergeant, all others are called Staff, Gunnery, First/Master or Master Gunnery Sergeant or Sergeant Major, which is unlike the Army that addresses all forms of Sergeant as Sergeant, informally. As a Marine I would consider, in formal address a person addressed as Sergeant to be a buck sergeant. The same for Lieutenant Colonels as I am, people address me as Colonel more often than not, I refer to my self as LtCol. Thus I would consider a person speaking to me or writing to me (unless they were standing in uniform) calling themselves Colonel to in fact be a colonel, not a LtCol.

The fun thing was being a Marine Corps Captain when calling a Navy base, I always got swift action as a Navy Captain is equal to a Colonel. I never told them I was a Marine!!

So concerning semantics, when I as a professional soldier, stated that I had always "considered" Lee a General, means that because there was no other rank preceding the word general, that he was a full general. For us there is no such title or reference as "full" general, those are layman's terms, the person is either a General or holds some subordinate rank. As I have been doing this for most of my life I forget that people that have not spent their lives in the military are not aware of some of the nuances of military parlance.

So I guess I should not have presumed that all would understand and I will endeavor to make myself clear in the future.

s/f (for the non-Marines that means Semper Fidelis)

DJM

[marine05]

Someone correct me if I am wrong....but I believe "General of the Army" is reserved for 5 star generals only. Of these only a few generals ever were, Eisenhower, Marshall, Bradley and a not even a handful of others.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

No, General of the Army was not reserved for 5 stars until WWII. Prior to Gen Pershing, two of the few previous holders of that rank were Washington and Grant.

In December of 1944, in the midst of World War Two, the new Five-Star officer rank was created, allowing generals and admirals to place a total of five stars on their uniforms and flags. In all, four Army generals, four Navy admirals and one Air Force general have held this rank.

George Washington holds the highest rank in U.S. military history, "General of the Armies of the United States," (note the plural use of "armies") which was awarded posthumously. General John "Black Jack" Pershing was awarded the title "General of the Armies of the United States," but wore only four stars. By an act of Congress (Joint Resolution of Congress, Public Law 94-479) in 1976, George Washington, was said to "have precedence over all other grades of the Army, past and present."



Following the U.S. Civil War, Congress created the rank of "General of the Army." In 1866, General Ulysses S. Grant was given this title. Upon Grant's retirement from the Army in 1869, General William T. Sherman followed Grant in this office. In 1888, General Philip H. Sheridan was promoted from Lieutenant General to General of the Army, and held that office until his death.

s/f

DJM

[Brent9thTx]

In echoes (p.102), it says that A group of women from Maryland made the coat, sewed on the stars, and sent it to him. It also alludes that Lee didn't need the insignia, it was understood who he was.

[JWolf]

It is interesting to note that is his writings, General Grant described his and General Lee's uniforms when they at Appomattox to discuss surrender terms.

"...General Lee was dressed in a full uniform that was entirely new, and was wearing a sword of considerable value... In my rough traveling suit, the uniform of a private with the straps of a lieutentent general, I must have contrasted very strangely with a man so handsomely dresses, six feet high and of faultless form..."

It could be then, that Lee's coat with the 3 stars of a Col. was more a field uniform and not a dress uniform.

Related to the topic, General Stonewall Jackson was known to wear his old US Army major's jacket early in the war- he was given a new dress presentation coat with the general's insignia, french braiding in the sleeves, etc. just before his death.

Jim

[Dale Beasley]

Jim,
Now, I wonder is Lee offered Grant his sword?