Richmond, Kentucky

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Gentlemen,
I would like to open a discussion about the potential of the annual event at Richmond, Kentucky.

Thankfully in 2001, the event organization was turned over to one that has a better idea of what an authentic event is. Mr. Chris Propes took on the task of getting the Richmond event off the ground authentically. I attended in 2002 and was sorely disappointed. I can honestly say that I have never been to a less enjoyable or less authentic event. Two days were spent camping and fighting in a field maybe the size of a football field alongside cavalry covered in neon yellow kepis and attrocious outfittings.

Since I go to school in Richmond, some pards and I reluctantly looked into the event again, for a season wind-down so to speak. After getting with Chris about the event for 2003, I became a tad excited about it. It had turned out that Chris decided to stage an authentic weekend re-creating the battle at Richmond. The Rebs were to camp campaign style three miles outside the main site and break camp early in the morning to begin the march toward town with fighting along the way (as per the 1862 battle). All participants, mind you, were to be by invite only.

Though Chris has the right ideas, the event hasn't had enough experience or publicity with authentic living historians. Half of the Rebs I camped with could not have been by invite due to their terrible disorganization and neglect for safety. No weapons inspections were held, and we began our march about a mile in the opposite direction we supposed to in a late summer downpour. ("No Presbeteryian rain either, but a genuine Baptist downpour"). Not to mention that no fighting took place on the march because our disorganization and blind manuevering disabled the Yanks to engage us properly. Sorry Billys.

Anyway, enough bashing. The truth is that I had an enjoyable time in 2003 because of the change in attitude and effort portrayed by Chris Propes. The event at Richmond has the potential to rank as a very good spot for a later season "must" on the schedule of reputable organizations. It was good to see Paul Calloway and some members of the WIG in attendance fighting for the Union that weekend too. So, word has seeped out to a few, but it needs to make its way around.

Again, this event has GREAT, GREAT potential and all it needs is some help. The landscape appears much as it did in 1862 through the rolling hills of central Kentucky tobaccoo fields. The battle history marks a small, but nonetheless significant piece of the Perryville campaign.

My suggestion to you boys that are intersted in helping out to make this event better, get with Chris Propes and let him know you're on board. Call him. E-mail him. And let him know that you would be honored to attend the Richmond event and do your part in correctly living the history of Richmond, Kentucky in August of 1862!

http://battleofrichmond.org/default.htm

Chris Propes: blackfaceminstrel@yahoo.com

Pards, Thank you for hearing me out and for your interest,

[Matthew.Rector]

I agree,
An authentic event at Richmond, Kentucky could potentially be great.

I attended the 2003 event on the Federal side. If you blinked, you might have missed us! While disappointed with the event, I have certainly seen worst events than here. With the right planning, backing and support, an authentic event at Richmond could work. Even if it meant having two separate events. Having one for the mainstream and a better one for those more inclined with authenticity. I believe it would be worth trying.

Considering the lay of the land, preservation efforts would really be good here too. Anyone that attended the event will recall being in viewshed of “Battlefield Estates” and their golfcourse. I’m still sickened by the sight.

I hope the 2003 event at Richmond didn’t turn too many people off to future events here. If you haven’t seen a more mediocre event than the 2003 one, then PERHAPS you haven’t been in the hobby long enough or maybe you have just been fortunate enough to attend more authentic events exclusively. It could have been really worse than what it was.

I, for one, am not ready to give up on a potentially good event held at Richmond, Kentucky. I hope it will happen.

[JCbluegrassrifles]

I agree with Matthew totally. Preservation is one of the important aspects of this event I failed to mention. What is left of the original ground reflects what it most likely did in 1862. However much of the ground has been taken over by the Bluegrass Army Depot which we can nothing about.

But houses and golf courses have been a threat to this place and it would be great to see sophisticated opposition to that. Madison County is one of the fastest growing regions in Kentucky and the battlefield is being overlooked.

The event in 2003 was not toally bad, which is what restored my hope in it. It had obviously come a long way since 2002.

- Jim Conley
Bluegrass Rifles

[Matthew.Rector]

Bluegrass Army Depot is actually closing in the not so distant future I believe. It is my understanding that The Battle of Richmond Association and the DOD might have an understanding of some sort in regards to transfer or selling of property. Not sure if I read this or heard it somewhere. In other words-that information may or may not be totally correct. The portion of the battlefield that is currently being "used" by the Army is on the National Register of Historic Places.

A fairly decent preservation plan was developed concerning the properties associated with the Battle of Richmond Kentucky. Mr. Conley posted The Battle of Richmond Association website above and that plan can be viewed there.

Mr. Conley, I misread your comment about the 2002 event. Got it confused with the 2003. I was not at the 2002...so I cannot comment on that event.
Sorry about that! I have heard similiar comments regarding this last year's event. So going with your statement, it sounds as if this event has already improved to some degree. Why not work to make it even better?

[Kate Vogel]

I think with the right sort of central leadership that there could be a few excellent opportunities for a handful of civilians. It has some potential to say the least.

Jim, weren't all participants supposedly there by "invitation only" last time?

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Kate,
It is my understanding that all who were present at the 2003 event were there by invitation, but Chris lowered the bar because he wasn't getting the numbers he had hoped for. Too, he even set a limit as to how many could participate on both sides, and that number was not even near to being reached even after letting his guard down on who he would invite. Not to point any fingers or bad mouth any particular organization, but it was just my thought that if higher numbers of authentic historians were interested, this event could be very good.
- Jim Conley
Bluegrass Rifles

[Miche_Todd]

I'm going to jump in here on Chris's side, I know for a fact that he was up against some major problems from day one. The event had been VERY mainstream in the past, the mainstreamers were very reluctant to give up their foothold and still are. I know that a couple of people were attending the annual meeting from a local farb unit just because they wanted to "take back" the event. I know that Chris had to really show the battlefield association that the progressive community would be interested, I don't know if we succeeded or not!!!

What we may need to do is stage a completely separate event from the farbs, and that way we wouldn't have to compete with them for the approval of the association. I hate to say it, but we all know that farbs are very good at being squeaky wheels!!! I know there were several people, especially civilians that muscled their way in that had no business being at this event!!! I know on the civilian side that Beth Crabb really tried to do a good job, but with so many local units that couldn't accept the fact that they should actually be asked to submit an application rather than just be allowed in because of "who they were." It was virtually impossible. And some of the sutlers, eye ye yeh!!! There were a couple that were decent but the rest!!! Remember the SPAM? Yikes!

What I would love to see for this event for the civilians at least is the authority for the coordinator to be the "be all and end all" as far as who gets in, who stays there and what they do. I would also like to see the number of wall tents and farbery on the civilian side gone! A camp of convenience in which the civilians stay and then leave during the day, only to return at night would be so much better! No tent sitters!!! It really could be a decent event! Maybe just not on Labor Day weekend!!!

Miche' - Please sign all of your posts with your full name - Mike Chapman

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Miche,
I agree with you totally. Chris is a heck of a guy and has had some trouble getting this off the ground. I'm not for turning anyone away from an event that has the right attitude and proper direction at what the event calls for. Gear is always something that can be lent out if someone needs a little help in certain areas of their physical impression. But to put your nose up and act as if this is a fight is wrong. If people want to go out and drain a few cases of beer over some plastic wrapped t-bone steaks, do it elsewhere. This isn't a camping trip for buds to come hang out and talk about child support and their wife's new car. I think many forget why this hobby began in the first place, REMEMBERING THE CIVIL WAR! No matter what aspect one comes into this growing hobby, we can all agree on that. If you don't want to do it right and follow the guidelines of what the event calls for, then don't bring up opposition to those that do.

[Miche_Todd]

Something that I find equally offense are the civilian reenactors that profess to be progressive, but in fact are just there to watch their hubbys!!! If you are truly progressive, 1) Develop an impression that is event specific. 2) Leave the wall tents, flys and kitchen sinks at home and 3) Do something other than just sitting under the tent talking about how bad everyone else's clothing is!!! It is people like this that give ladies that are actually making an attempt to have a good impression look bad! Those of us that want to try and be historically accurate get lumped into a mass with these tent sitters!! Sorry, I don't mean to offend or harp, but this is just something that really bothers me!!!

~Miche' Todd

[Kate Vogel]

"Remember the SPAM?"

How could we forget such a shining beacon of potted period meat ( an authentic 19th century reproduction, mind you) in the midst of a hot, muggy August afternoon?

Honestly, I'm going to be nicer in the New Year. ;)

[CPT Fritz]

In response to Mr. Rector, the Bluegrass Army Depot's closing in a "short while" means eight to ten years due to the chemical demil program. There is an article in today's Lexington Herald-Leader that the Battle of Richmond Association and Madison County have bought dibs, thanks to a bank's contribution, to the golf course & subdivision that screwed up the "public" part of the battlefield.

Fritz Jacobs

[dusty27]

Here is the article Fritz is referring to.....


Battle of Richmond site returning to government hands

PURCHASE IS KEY STEP TO CREATING CIVIL WAR TOURIST ATTRACTION

By Peter Mathews, CENTRAL KENTUCKY BUREAU

01/06/2003 Lexington Herald-Leader

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/7641772.htm (http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/redir.asp?lid=0&newsite=http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/7641772.htm)



RICHMOND - More than 140 years after Gen. Kirby Smith's Confederates
wrested the land from an inexperienced Union force, part of the Battle of Richmond site is in government hands again.

Yesterday, National City Bank executives bid $1.4 million for a 206.6-acre parcel on behalf of Madison County. The bank held a $2.6 million lien on the property from developer Jerry C. Fritz.

The purchase is a key step in an effort by the Battle of Richmond Association and Madison County to create a tourist attraction that could generate $8 million or more a year, with walking trails and exhibits at the historic buildings in the area. The parcel includes Battlefield Golf and Country Club, which will now be open to the public.

"I'm elated," said Judge-Executive Kent Clark. "Five, 10, 20 years from now, this will be one of the five or six things the county did" that people will remember.

"It's something everybody's proud of," he said.

It is the first time that preservationists have reclaimed a major battle site after development, said James Lighthizer, president of the Civil War Preservation Trust. The non-profit national group lists the Richmond site as one of the nation's 10 most endangered battlefields.

"This is big. This is historic preservation in a very creative way," he said.

Many consider the battle, fought Aug. 29 to 30, 1862, the most devastating rout of the war.

With Union Maj. Gen. William "Bull" Nelson away in Lexington, Brig. Gen. Mahlon Manson, whom Nelson had ordered to stay put, clashed three times with the advancing rebels.

He was outmaneuvered by Confederate Brig. Gen. Patrick Cleburne near the tiny Kingston community, between Berea and Richmond. Just across U.S. 421 from the now-closed Kingston Market, Civil War buff Bob Moody can point out the spot where Cleburne was shot in the mouth.

The two sides clashed again at a farm 2 miles north and at Richmond Cemetery, but the outcome was the same. The Union forces, mostly raw recruits from Ohio and Indiana, retreated north in disarray.

A contingent of Confederates captured most of them north of Richmond. More than 4,300 were taken prisoner; more than 1,000 were killed or wounded. The Confederate casualties were about half that.

Besides the money the county is spending for the golf course area, the Battle of Richmond Association is working to raise $1.5 million to develop a museum, visitors center and Battlefield Park. Its members hope to have some exhibits ready by Labor Day, with a grand opening by Labor Day 2005.

Much of the battle site is now part of the Blue Grass Army Depot. Civil War buffs hope to obtain it after the depot's chemical weapons are neutralized.

The depot has agreed to donate the Rogers-Terrill House, which was a field hospital during the battle, for use as the visitors center.

The museum will be at the Barnett-Gibbs-Herndon estate, where phase 1 of the battle raged. The Madison County Historical Society bought the house and 62 acres in 2001.
When a new Interstate 75 interchange is built at Duncannon Lane, tourists will have easy access to the area.

They could be numerous. Lighthizer notes that more than 2 million people visit Gettysburg annually and 500,000 go to Antietam, though neither is easy to get to.

In addition to the golf course, the land also includes a sewage treatment plant.

Because the sewer plant needs $150,000 to $200,000 in upgrades, the county is negotiating a $1.275 million purchase price with the bank. It plans to sell $1.5 million in bonds to pay for the land.

The effort is a rare example of elected officials, business people and private citizens working together, Lighthizer and others said, noting contributions from the bank, the county and the state. Under former Gov. Paul Patton, the project received a $500,000 federal grant in October 2002.

"I'm just delighted for them," Lighthizer said. "They're not only preserving history, but they're enhancing tourism, too."

Reach Peter Mathews in the Richmond bureau at (859) 626-5878 or
pmathews@herald-leader.com. (http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/compose.asp?mb=&mp=P&mps=0&lid=0&intListPerPage=20&messageto=pmathews@herald-leader.com.&ed=w2iEmUHmFQXGOaDhPMxoGdo%2FmpzF8Wl30%2FConDUiJE8 ppE8Uke4Vyd%2Bk3IoaIWhXCYElFbuZpVWZ%0D%0AWNt1K5L29 3z4Gz7MPc%2BKUU0ngXNq5mHtsvOevRlgikkk)

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Check out the article and help make a difference!

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Thank you to those of you that took the time to read and respond to my post. That's just the type of feedback I wanted. Preservation of this ground, and as we know, many others is vital if we are to protect our history. Spread the word and let the Battle of Richmond Association know you're there in support! And let Chris Propes know you want to make his event better!
www.battleofrichmond.org

[Miche_Todd]

I would say this event is pretty much going to be 'stream from now on. I I called the association for an update and was told that this year it will be open to everyone, not just a certain few. Pity.

[TeamsterPhil]

Having attended the Richmond event last year (as a civilian), it is sad to hear that I will remain at its previous level of authenticity. BUT we should not consider that to be death knell of accuaracy on the Richmond Battlefield. There are 51 other weekends each year. I would hope that living histories could be done there - military and civilian. Visitors to sites like this want to learn about what happened there, even if it isn't the weekend closest to the original battle. There are plenty of things that could be done there without doing an anniversary battle reenactment. The raw Union troops could be portrayed encamped in the area, the aftermath of the battle could be reenacted, the life of the citizens in the area before the battle is a good opportunity for civilians, and I'm sure life continued around there after the mayhem of the battle had disappeared.

Phil Campbell
Trying to look at the bright side.

[JerseySkilletLicker]

I have a particular interest in this battle as it was the only independent command action of my illustrious GGG Grandfather; Maj. Gen. William "Bull" Nelson. This action also produced possibly the most complete victory of any Southern force during the war and the final demise of my ancestor after a "one sided" duel with then Brig. Gen. Jefferson C. Davis is a story chock full of political intrigue.
If an effort is ever made my full support can be counted on, for whatever that is worth.

[JerseySkilletLicker]

On the morning of September 29, 1862 in the public area of the Galt
House Hotel in downtown Louisville, Ky. US Brigadier General
Jefferson C. Davis shot and killed unarmed US Major General William
Nelson. As with so many homicides there was much more to this story
than just the tragic act of the taking of a human life.
When one considers the differing backgrounds, upbringing, social
status, demeanor of the two antagonists, and the highly charged
atmosphere of the time, this violent confrontation seems to have been
almost unavoidable. On September 29, 1862, William Nelson had been
for the previous two weeks or so, the US commander at Louisville.
Nelson's assignment was to defend that critically important city
from capture by the advancing confederate forces of Bragg and Smith.
Nelson's job was to try and prevent the capture of both the city and
the vast stockpiles of vital military supplies assembled at the
critical river port was made even more difficult because he had a
very limited number of trained infantry. While awaiting the hoped for
arrival of the US Army under Buell, panic and wild rumor seemed to
be the rule of the day in Lousiville. Upon Nelson's assumption of
command of Louisville a significant part of Nelson's weighty
responsibilities was the assembling and organization of large levies
of local citizen militia. On September 23rd, Nelson appointed Brig.
General Jeff Davis to command of all the citizen soldiers of
Louisville. Within a couple of days of this appointment Nelson became
throughly dissatisfied with Davis' job performance. An eyewitness
relates the following account of the resulting confrontation:

"A day or two after Davis had been assigned to the duty of
organizing the citizens he called at Nelson's headquarters at the
Galt House. Nelson inquired , `How are you succeeding?' Davis
replied , ` I don't know' and he gave similar answers to two are
three questions, as to the number of men organized. Nelson
was angry , and said,'I have made a mistake in selecting you
for this duty,' and in an abusive manner ordered him out of
his presence. Davis, replied asking for treatment due him as
a general officer. Nelson then ordered Davis to report to
General Wright at Cincinnati. Davis said,'you have no
authority to order me.'Nelson turned to his Adjutant General
and said,'Captain, if General Davis does not leave town by
nine o'clock tonight, give instructions to the Provost
Marshall to see that he is put across the Ohio [River].'
Davis withdrew and reported to Wright in Cincinnati."

Shortly after reporting to Cincinnatii Wright ordered Davis to
return to Louisville and to report to Buell for assignment. Davis at
this point began his return trip to Louisville via Indianapolis. In
Indianapolis Davis went to the highly influential war-time Governor
of Indiana Oliver P. Morton.
When Davis voiced his personal complaints against Nelson, he may
or may not have known that Morton himself had developed some very
strong `complaints' against General Nelson. For sometime now, the
fire-eating `Union Forever' Morton had felt that many highly placed
Union military leaders and Kentuckians in general had simply not
been doing nearly enough to fight for and protect the Union. Morton
for the last weeks had been frantically raising new Indiana units and
speeding them to Kentucky. Many of these raw Indiana recruits had
been lost under Nelson's command at the Battle of Richmond, Ky. on
August 30th, 1862. As if this defeat and capture of nearly 5000 of
Morton's constituents had not been bad enough in subsequent
explanations for the defeat and disaster Nelson had made very
disparaging comments concerning Hoosier officers and soldiers.
Nelson's immediate explanation for the defeat at Richmond was to
blame the defeat on Brigadier Mahlon Manson, a Hoosier and political
appointee of Morton's. Nelson's complaints regarding Hoosier officers
was no doubt compounded in Morton's eyes by the additional printed
statements attributed to Nelson disparaging the fighting qualities of
Indiana troops and describing them as ,'uncouth decedents of poor
trash from the mountains of Kentucky, Tennessee and North Carolina.'
To say the least Morton, like most Hoosiers at the time blamed the
Richmond defeat and capture of resulting capture of thousands of
their fellow citizens on Nelson the over-all commander who was not
present during the lion's share of the fight at Richmond. In addition
many Hoosiers and principally Morton where becoming increasingly
tired of the luke warm politically suspect Kentuckians who required
Indiana assistance in defending their homes and sweethearts from
Southern invasion. In addition Morton had never had a high opinion of
over-all Army commander Don Carlos Buell and Nelson was one of
Buell's favorites. For his part Buell and his subordinate, Nelson no
doubt viewed Morton as one of the meddling politicians that made the
life of a Civil War General more tedious. At any rate when Jeff
Davis asked Gov. Morton to accompany him to Louisville to witness
Davis's confrontation with Nelson, Morton agreed to do so and both
Hoosiers headed to Louisville with axes to grind with Nelson.
On September 29, 1862 William Nelson had just turned 38 years
old. He was a native of Maysville Kentucky and had all ready
established himself as one of truly unique general officers in the
Civil War. Before the war Nelson's entire military training had been
in the Navy. After two years of college study in 1840 Nelson received
his mid-shipman's appointment in to the United States Navy, where he
served for the next 21 years, seeing service in the War with Mexico
and ultimately rising to the rank of lieutenant. Nelson was from a
politically prominent Kentucky family who were early allies of
Abraham Lincoln (his brother Tom was named Minister to Chile by
Lincoln). Many months prior to the end of Kentucky neutrality William
Nelson was sent by Lincoln into the state to organize and establish
Camp Dick Robinson which was the central rallying place in the state
for the forces loyal to the Union. At the end of Kentucky neutrality
on September 16, 1861 Nelson accepted a Brigadier General's
commission in the United States Volunteers. Nelson's first assignment
was to help organize the Unionist forces in his native Blue Grass.
Nelson served in various capacities with the forces that would
ultimately become the Army of the Cumberland. On July 19, 1862 he
became a Major General of Volunteers in command of the "Man of War'
division of the forces under Buell's command in middle Tennessee.
With this promotion Nelson became the only naval officer in the Civil
War to rise to the rank of Major General in the infantry.By all
accounts Nelson was a physically huge man some 6 feet in height and
somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 pounds. He was also widely known
for his extreme profanity and ungentlemanly manners towards those
whom did not consider to be his equal. One Union soldier noted, "
after General Pope, it was boasted of him by his admirers , that
General Nelson was the best, finest , and most elegant and original
curser and swearer in the whole United States Army." By at least one
account Nelson was the type of man whose personal demeanor, style,
and rough language often elicited great resentment and dislike from
his subordinates. The Thirty-First Indiana's Jesse B. Connelly
thought that Nelson took,' delight in hectoring the officers and men
of his command,' and told of a previous incident, ` One of the boys
in Company B drew his gun on General Nelson one day - when the
General threatened to strike him with his sword - but Nelson saw
business in the man's eyes, laughed and walked on.' Whether Nelson's
nickname of "Bull" was one of fondness or contempt is unknown.
Clearly Nelson's war record to date had demonstrated an aggressive
competency that had favorable impressed his superiors and ruffled
some feathers among his subordinates. Buell was unquestionably one of
his admirers and planned for Nelson to play a significant role in the
upcoming campaign to re-take Kentucky.
Much like Nelson, the young Hoosier General that strode into the
Galt House that fateful September morning had a rather unique
military background. Unlike most all of the other Federal Generals of
the time, Davis owed his rank to neither a West Point education nor
prior political office or personal influence. Jefferson Columbus
Davis had gotten his rank the `hard way'. Born in 1828 in Clark
County Indiana at the age of 18 he had volunteered as a private in
the 3rd Indiana for service in the War with Mexico. Two years after
his service at the Battle of Buena Vista he was commissioned directly
into the Regular army as a second lieutenant in the 1st U.S.
Artillery. Jeff Davis was an officer of the garrison defending Fort
Sumter at the commencement of the war. As a reward for his gallant
service in defense of Sumter in August 1861 he was appointed by
Morton to command the 22nd Indiana Volunteer Infantry. His regular
army ways apparently impressed some of his superiors in Missouri and
he was appointed a Brigadier General of US Volunteers in December
1861. Davis had creditably commanded Union Divisions at both the
Battles of Pea Ridge and the Siege of Corinth. As a man who had risen
from the ranks in the Regular Army it his interesting to speculate
how Davis may have viewed his superior Nelson's rather unusual Navy
background and highly politically aided Major Generalship. But
whatever Davis' views may on that score it was not necessary for
Davis to have preconceived negative feelings toward a fellow officer
for Davis to be a very disagreeable human being. A later subordinate
would complain that Davis could at times be a meddlesome and
demeaning Division commander.
Two slightly different contemporary accounts exist as to exactly
what happened between the somewhat diminutive five foot eight inch
Davis and the large `Bull' Nelson on the morning of September 29,
1862. The most often cited account of the meeting between Nelson,
Morton and Davis states:

"Nelson , after breakfast, was standing in the hotel office, and was
leaning against the counter when he was approached by Davis in
company with Governor Oliver P. Morton, of Indiana. Davis accosted
Nelson with the remark that Nelson had insulted him at the last
meeting and that he must have satisfaction. Nelson told him to go
away. Davis pressed his demand and Nelson said `Go away you damn
puppy. I don't want anything to do with you.' Davis , who had picked
up a blank visiting card and had squeezed it into a ball as he was
talking , responded to Nelson's insulting words by flipping the card
into Nelson's face. Nelson then slapped Davis in the face and said to
Governor Morton, `Did you come here to see me insulted?' `No `
replied Morton, whereupon Nelson walked towards his room on the
office floor. After the slap Davis asked for a pistol, and a friend
borrowed one and handed it to Davis, who started toward Nelson's room
and met him in the corridor near the foot of the staircase,
apparently on his way to Buell's apartment upstairs. When a foot
apart Davis fired. ... The small pistol ball entered just over the
heart. In less than an hour Nelson was dead."

A second allegedly more contemporary account differs in some details:

The two [Morton and Davis] met Nelson at the Galt House on September
29 in the vestibule and the following exchange took place. General
Davis, `Sir you seemed to take advantage of your authority the other
day.' General Nelson (sneering and placing his hand to his
ear) `Speak louder , I don't hear you well.'Davis (in a louder voice)
You seemed to take advantage of your authority the other day'. Nelson
(indignantly)'I don't know that I did, sir.'Davis `You threatened to
arrest me and sent me out of the state under a provost guard.' Nelson
(striking Davis with the back of his hand twice in the face) 'There
damn you, take that.' Davis (retreating) "this is not the last of
it :you will hear from me again'. General Nelson then turned to
Governor Morton and said :'By God did you come here also to insult
me?' Governor Morton , `No sir but I was requested to be present and
listen to the conversation between you and General Davis.' General
Nelson (violently to the by- standers) ` Did you hear the damn rascal
insult me?' and walked into the ladies room [sic]...Davis returned in
a few minutes with a pistol he had borrowed from a Captain Gibson of
Louisville , walking towards the door that Nelson had passed through.
He saw Nelson walking out of the parlor into the hall separating the
main hall from the parlor. The two were face to face and about two
yards apart , when General Davis drew his pistol and fired , the ball
entering Nelson's heart or in the immediate vicinity. Thirty minutes
later Nelson died.

Lt. Colonel Thomas C. James , in a letter beginning "Dear John,"
penned an interesting account of the episode on the same day when it
occurred. "We are all in commotion here," he wrote on Galt House
stationary . " Major Geneeral Nelson was shot and killed at my room
door this morning about 8 o'clock by Brigadier General Jeff C. Davis
of Indiana, whose face he had slapped a moment before," James thought
that Nelson was a very "rough" man who used the `most frightful
language; he cursed me terribly on Wednesday for nothing , telling me
that put me in close confine,ment for asking him which which order I
was to obeywhen he had given me conflicting orders,. James firther
noted that, " there is scarely an officer that is a gentleman that
has not been cursed by Nelson if he has met him in business." And
while "no one seemed to regret his death, " yet "all deplored the
shooting of one general by another."
Nelson's story would soon end with his burial Maysville, Ky.
However Jeff Davis' continued survival made for a difficult
situation. Two authorities now were faced with exactly what needed to
be done to the clearly guilty but highly in demand Hoosier General.
Initailly the handling of the Davis case was a military matter. At
the time of the shooting and for sometime after Louisville was
operating under martial law. As a result immediately followint the
shooting Davis turned himself over to the military authorities and he
was immediately placed under arrest. Fortunately for the Hoosier, two
days later Buell lead the US Army out of Louisville in his campaign
to re-take the Blue Grass State. Buell clearly at that time could not
spare the requisite high ranking officers required of a court martial
and Buell suggested to Halleck that a court martial of officers
appointed by Washington should take place immediately. Halleck for
unknown reasons took no action against Davis.Within amonth Buell was
in his own legal hot water and on December 1, 1862 was sitting in the
defendant's chair at his own Court of Inquiry. Apparently got up with
ejecting Bragg and his army from Kentucky and then having to prepare
for his own defense Buell over looked the techicality that no charges
had even been formally brought against Davis. Since no formal charges
had been prefered against him within the 30 days required by military
regulations Davis was released by order of General Horiatio Wright
Union commander at Cincinnati on or about October 29, 1862.
However shortly before his release from military arrest the
Louisville civilian authorities caused a grand jury to indict Davis
for civilian criminal offense of `manslaughter'. Immediately upon
his release from military arrest Davis posted the requisite bail bond
of $5000 and promptly left the jurisdiction and reported for active
duty with General Rosecrans Army at Nashville, Tennessee. For the
next eighteen months the criminal case of The Commonwealth of
Kentucky v. Jefferson C. Davis was continued each time it was called
on the court's docket. Finally on May 24, 1864 (while Davis was
leading a Division in the North Georgia Campaign the case by
operation of statue was stricken from the Criminal Court's
docket `with leave to reinstate at a later time'.
Although no effective legal steps were ever taken against Davis
it is worthy of note that despite his subsequent stellar Civil War
service which included Division and Corps command he was never
promoted beyond the brevet rank of Major General of Volunteers. After
the war he was placed in command of the 23rd Infantry Regiment and he
died in November 1879.. Jefferson Columbus Davis went to his grave
having never publicly expressed the slightest remorse or regret for
having murdered his superior officer on September 29, 1862.

[MissAnnaMae]

Having attended the Richmond event last year (as a civilian), it is sad to hear that I will remain at its previous level of authenticity. BUT we should not consider that to be death knell of accuaracy on the Richmond Battlefield. There are 51 other weekends each year. I would hope that living histories could be done there - military and civilian. Visitors to sites like this want to learn about what happened there, even if it isn't the weekend closest to the original battle.
Phil Campbell
Trying to look at the bright side.

I agree with Phil....perhaps we should focus our energies on a living history at the site rather than the battle reenactment. Anybody else game?

[Miche_Todd]

Since I spent four years making this drive while I was attending EKU, I would be happy to volunteer my time to help whomever wants to coordinate any civilian activities, the site is a mere 40 minutes or so from my house! I think if we do this, it needs to be done right. Meaning a COC for the civs or (if possible) a stay in the house. None of the junk I referenced in my other posts!

[Matthew.Rector]

In response to Mr. Rector, the Bluegrass Army Depot's closing in a "short while" means eight to ten years due to the chemical demil program. There is an article in today's Lexington Herald-Leader that the Battle of Richmond Association and Madison County have bought dibs, thanks to a bank's contribution, to the golf course & subdivision that screwed up the "public" part of the battlefield.

Fritz Jacobs


In the world of preservation, that can be a very "short while." Never too soon to start planning. I think half our troubles begin because we do not plan ahead-instead wait until action is needed immediately. I think the Battle of Richmond Association isn't doing a bad job of keeping up with this.

I am sure the Army has already thought about their plans for this site. Not just the house they are donating, but the property as well.

[ewtaylor]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
It has come to my attention Mr. Propes was dismissed by the Richmond Assoc. and the "Battle of Richmond" is now in the hands of the 1st Ky Cav Brigade. They also run the Georgetown, KY event. If you have ever seen these guys in action you can expect pretty much the same show as we saw in Richmond 2002. In other words, calling this a mainstream event would be a compliment. The only bright side is it will generate money for the preservation. The 4th Ky used to have a living history on site for school children, maybe we could do that or gather a company of campaigners for each side or just the Fed side (since there will be about 500 cornfarbs). I'm sure the unit I belong to (BlueGrass Rifles) would help, although there is only 10 of us.
ewtaylor

[JCbluegrassrifles]

It's sad to hear that about Chris. Wayne, being my pard of the Bluegrass Rifles, mentioned preservation. I know that the Kentucky boys will do their part in preserving Richmond. It's also sad to hear that we've lost a shot at making this event a good one. The mainstream won in the end it appears. I suppose it's wrong of me to sum the situation up as and 'us vs. them' but it seemed to pan out that way. It was a good idea while it lasted. Thanks to all that responded in support. Let's not allow this to deter us from this site however. We can still arrange for living history weekends and help save the Richmond battlefield. But I must say that I, for one, am somewhat disheartened at this. But the best thing to do is turn a foul situation into a positive one. We can still make our mark at Richmond.

[ewtaylor]

I have recvd a few emails about my post on Richmond and the 1st KY Cav Brigade. First off i didn't specifically call the Brigade "cornfarbs". I just ment there will be these type of reenactors present at the event. If I hurt the pride and feelings of authentic-minded individuals in this organization then I apologize. I have yet to meet any of you, only others in your organization. If you can raise the money needed for the preservation of this Battlefield then BULLY for you. If you want to have a "mainstream" event then knock yourself out and have a good time.
I'm not trying to bash anyone. We all know there are Farbs, hardcores, and thousands (like me) in between. You reenact the way you want to and I'll reenact the way I want to. Just because 10 or 12 authentic-minded people show up at an event with 100's of unauthentic-minded people doesn't make the evnt authentic. Please don't expect members of this forum to be "suckered" into the same ole same ole that has been the Battle of Richmond in the past.

ewtaylor
bluegrass rifles
rusty94@charter.net

[Miche_Todd]

If a living history is scheduled, will there be a civilian component? And if so, who will be assigned the task of coordinating it?

[KyCavMajor]

Mr Taylor,
Just a couple points presented in what I hope is a healing dialoge.
First let me introduce myself. I am Tod Lane, I command the mounted troops for the Kentucky Cavalry Brigade.
Just you understand, it is the Kentucky Cavalry Brigade, the 1st Kentucky Cavalry is one member of an umbrella organization. We have some 300 members last time I counted, distribted in about 12 differnt groups. I personally am from the Ninth KY Cavalry.
We have groups and individuals at all levels of development,it is bound to be in a group our size.
We are attempting to upgrade in all areas. I have people whose kits rival any on this board. I just spent the day in Gettysburg today shopping at Marino's, S&S, Family Heirloom weavers, Dirty Billys, you get the idea. I did the 60 odd miles in the GREAT Morgan's raid event in Ohio this year. I have lived out of my saddle bags for as long as 5 days at various events.
At the Ninth's Scheduling meeting is scheduled at the Bardstown Musuem. They are letting us in two hours early so we can have an authinticity lecture, examining gear from those vendors as well as C Childs and others. Then we are going to look at the museum exhibits.
As for drill, we are using Wheelers manual these days, I have obtained a rare copy and I am putting it on DVD for distribution soon. We are also going to make a training video to distribute amongst the various units so we are uniform. We have made HUGE strides in this area by the way. All last year it kept getting better and better, we had a real good day drill wise at Perryville this year.
We are still learning to integrate mobile Artillery with the Cavalry. It is pretty unique to have a horse drawn BATTERY, there is one outfit, the 2nd Virginia, that has a gun, but no one has a Battery.
We also have associated units in Florida and South Carolina. At Spring Hill this year we should field some 80 riders, the aforementioned battery, and two wagons. We are hoping they allow us to sleep in the works at Franklin like they did in 1997.
Are we a "hardcore' oufit? Nope. Will we likely ever be? Probably not. But we DO try to improve each and every time out.We really are concentrating on drill. We ARE NOT the units you saw two years ago.
Personally, when I found we were to have some influence in Richmond this year I asked that we make sure to extend a hand to our more progressive breathern. I LOVED the idea of a three mile march to the battle. I would be glad to provide you a cavalry screen and a couple mobile guns for support. And yes, we have done drills screening moving columns.
So if you all can live with the occasional ancrism we could really pioneer some new ground here. It would help preservation after all. And maybe we could all learn something?

What say you Sir?
Tod Lane
Kentucky Cavalry Brigade
todlane@hotmal.com




I have recvd a few emails about my post on Richmond and the 1st KY Cav Brigade. First off i didn't specifically call the Brigade "cornfarbs". I just ment there will be these type of reenactors present at the event. If I hurt the pride and feelings of authentic-minded individuals in this organization then I apologize. I have yet to meet any of you, only others in your organization. If you can raise the money needed for the preservation of this Battlefield then BULLY for you. If you want to have a "mainstream" event then knock yourself out and have a good time.
I'm not trying to bash anyone. We all know there are Farbs, hardcores, and thousands (like me) in between. You reenact the way you want to and I'll reenact the way I want to. Just because 10 or 12 authentic-minded people show up at an event with 100's of unauthentic-minded people doesn't make the evnt authentic. Please don't expect members of this forum to be "suckered" into the same ole same ole that has been the Battle of Richmond in the past.

ewtaylor
bluegrass rifles
rusty94@charter.net

[Tom Ezell]

Mr Taylor,
Just a couple points presented in what I hope is a healing dialoge.
First let me introduce myself. I am Tod Lane, I command the mounted troops for the Kentucky Cavalry Brigade.

What say you Sir?

Mr. Lane:

One of Stonewall Jackson's maxims, recently republished, is that you are known by the company that you keep. When the Kentucky Cavalry Brigade made its presence known last summer with an appeal for infantry for a music video shoot near Camp Wildcat, several of us went to the brigade's web site to look into the details.

I applaud your efforts to improve the unit's impression. However, that's not the message conveyed by the photographs of your unit in the field as posted on the website. Not by a long stretch.

I wish the Brigade success and luck on what is obviously a long journey.

[Miche_Todd]

I hope I am not opening up a flame war here, because it is not my intention. However, I was disappointed in the lack of willingness on the part of the mainstream units in Ky to allow a change at Richmond. Since the mainstream already has a number of events scheduled throughout the year in Ky (just about every event with the exception of a couple of lhs and Shaker Village, perhaps Perryville) why were these units as a whole so unwilling to let go of one event? I know of several people in notoriously mainstream units that have intentionally been flooding the meetings of the BOR committee just so they could be sure and take control of the event, and stated their intentions while attending last years event as spectators.

Now, my questions are these, Mr. Lane, are you willing to have a set of authenticity standards at Richmond and stick to them? Limit the number of civilians to an accurate proportion and monitor their clothing and authenticity? If not, then it is still a mainstream event and will stay that way. Yes, I live within 45 minutes of this event but will not be attending for the same reason that I have every other year in the past with the exception of last year. It is exactly the same type of event that I can attend on just about any other weekend anywhere else in the state, and I prefer to not attend any of them. This last year at Wildcat was enough to prove to me that you can't be happy and be truly progressive in nature while attending mainstream events. The anachronisms are just too much and too glaring to warrant a good time.

[CPT Fritz]

Going back to Miche' Todd's 6 January response that the event would be "open to everybody, not just a few" is what causes the bad vibes among the reenactors. When you feel or are told that you're not welcome at an event, this drives a wedge between the different factions of the hobby and brings out the "I'm better than you" factor. If we're going to do this in a nice way, a lot of folks need to get their noses out of the air and quit acting like they are so much better than anyone. Offer to help in a nice way, not the I'm smarter/better than you and don't need your kind around attitutude.

[Miche_Todd]

Capt. Fritz, I hope that you don't take this in a way that sounds a lot harsher than I mean it too. But, what is wrong with having an event where there are only good and progressive impressions and that way we don't have to worry about those that don't wish to further their impressions? There is a time and place for educating those that wish to be, and I feel that what many that have expressed an interest in this event are looking for is something of a more EBUFU nature.

[KyCavMajor]

I hope I am not opening up a flame war here, because it is not my intention. However, I was disappointed in the lack of willingness on the part of the mainstream units in Ky to allow a change at Richmond. Since the mainstream already has a number of events scheduled throughout the year in Ky (just about every event with the exception of a couple of lhs and Shaker Village, perhaps Perryville) why were these units as a whole so unwilling to let go of one event? I know of several people in notoriously mainstream units that have intentionally been flooding the meetings of the BOR committee just so they could be sure and take control of the event, and stated their intentions while attending last years event as spectators.

Now, my questions are these, Mr. Lane, are you willing to have a set of authenticity standards at Richmond and stick to them? Limit the number of civilians to an accurate proportion and monitor their clothing and authenticity? If not, then it is still a mainstream event and will stay that way. Yes, I live within 45 minutes of this event but will not be attending for the same reason that I have every other year in the past with the exception of last year. It is exactly the same type of event that I can attend on just about any other weekend anywhere else in the state, and I prefer to not attend any of them. This last year at Wildcat was enough to prove to me that you can't be happy and be truly progressive in nature while attending mainstream events. The anachronisms are just too much and too glaring to warrant a good time.
Well it WILL be a mainstream event. If that is to much for you to bear, then this is not the event for you. If an incorrect hook and eye fastner sends you into convulsions please stay away
I had hoped for a different sort of reply.... I would LOVE to have some "progressives" giving lectures and seminars. I HEAR all this talk of education....
We, the mainstream majority, did allow you all to have the Richmond event last year.The BORA commitee contacted US this year, I have the letter. Why is that do you suppose?
For the sake of the Richmond battlefield I hope you will reconsider. But if you will be miserable, please don't attend.

[Edit. Please edit your signature so that your full name appears at the bottom of every post. Thats been our policy for some three years so it shouldn't really come as a surprise. Please see that it is done. -PC

[CPT Fritz]

Fine, post it as an EBUFU like Gaines Mills, etc. If you post an event and want to exclude the 'stremers & farbs as you want to, it takes a lot of preplanning, from what I've heard and seen, and obviously, the Richmond event does not have ANY potentional for this. What's wrong in having a local event every one, but the few high and mighty, can enjoy without feeling like some kind of outcast? Hey, we (reenactor community) needs to help preserve the local battlefields like Richmond, but if you start making it out as a holier than thou event, you will chase away a lot of people, and probably a lot of preservation money. I live in Winchester and work in Richmond, and from the start, I could see that this didn't have an EBUFU chance. When it started out as the Battle to Save the Golf Course, that gave me some insight. Granted, the locals are trying to make something of it, but it looks like it won't materialize into a high falutin' affair like you would want.

Let bygones be bygones, and try to help out the local events without running them into the ground.

If you would like to have a reenactment with all your friends, then why not do a counter event, with just the "special" people, so you don't have to contend with the riff-raff?

[KyCavMajor]

Going back to Miche' Todd's 6 January response that the event would be "open to everybody, not just a few" is what causes the bad vibes among the reenactors. When you feel or are told that you're not welcome at an event, this drives a wedge between the different factions of the hobby and brings out the "I'm better than you" factor. If we're going to do this in a nice way, a lot of folks need to get their noses out of the air and quit acting like they are so much better than anyone. Offer to help in a nice way, not the I'm smarter/better than you and don't need your kind around attitutude.

EXACTLY !!! We are ASKING for help... Show the way ! True some will never measure up, but many will.

[Miche_Todd]

For the sake of the Richmond battlefield I hope you will reconsider. But if you will be miserable, please don't attend.


I'm sorry I didn't realize that the preservation of the battlefield was relying on us attending or not attending this event. The idea that I have seen tossed around is two separate events. To me, 1 mainstream event + 1 progressive event = more money for preservation.

[James Masson]

Michie', by the responses you got, I think the only way to have a progressive event would be to have an event seperate from the mainstream horse and pony show.

"I would LOVE to have some "progressives" giving lectures and seminars."

Mr. Lane, in order to get some progressives at your event you would need to up the standards and regs and enforce them. There isn't going to be a great influx of progressives at your event without at least doing those two things. As far as I'm concerned, if that means having "we're better/smarter than you" attitude, then so be it.

"If you post an event and want to exclude the 'stremers & farbs as you want to, it takes a lot of preplanning, from what I've heard and seen, and obviously, the Richmond event does not have ANY potentional for this."

Cpt. Fritz, it's not as hard as one would think. It involves a committee that would raise the bar and enforce the new standards. Anyone that comes that doesn't meet the standards, doesn't get in, it's that simple.

I would definitely be interested in doing an event in KY. I really hope something can come out of this.

[Miche_Todd]

Michie', by the responses you got, I think the only way to have a progressive event would be to have an event seperate from the mainstream horse and pony show.

Exactly! I thought that was what many of us were trying to bring about. :-)

[Yankeeboy]

Ater talking to an associate who works for the State of Kentucky, managing and maintaining state and county owned historic properties, Richmond being one ofthemthe discussion that both of us had recently in regards to the Site nd the event was that, the BORA does not really care whether there are mainstreamers or authenctis at an event but that the site be preserved, money be raised and tourists brought in.

WAKE UP people, why don't you quit going around tryingn to impress everyone with your totally handsewn clothing etc. and realize that while you are being holier then thou, that more battlefileds are being lost becuase there is no money to save them. It is our responsibilty as historians to try to preserve and protect what little is left for our children and grandchildren. It is also our responsibility to educate the public, and teach what is obviously not beingn taught in school. I beingn an authentic progressive myself see that there are poeple posting on this topic that are more concerned with segragating themsleves from everyone who does not fit into what they see as right, instead of teaching and sharing your knowleged with those who may need improvement.

In 2003 I went to 19 events from January to October. From a total immersion event at Port Gibson, to what Miche' called a farbfest at Camp Wildcat. I had fun at all of them.


(except for one,death in family had to leave early). I have met progerssive authentics down to the person who was absolutely new with no knowlege. No matter what thevent was,or who was around me, I maintained my standards and still had a very good time. I was amazed at how many mainstreamers asked me questions and were eager to learn and wanted more information. I came to teh conclsuion that many of them had been totally ostercized by a few of us progressives and that I was probably one of the first authentics to take an interest in sharing info with them and helping them learn.

I would like to address one event in particular. My unit the 7th KY Vol Inf. US, who has a member the former Western Brigade Commander, voted last January to attend Camp Wildcat, becuase this was the 7th first battle orginally. 7 of us attended. The standards were theame as always for us, progressive authentic. We opted to use the units sibly tent as you never know what the weather will be in KY in mid october. All around us were guys who were not authentic and some who were even worse that mainstream. But we maintained all weekend and had a ball. First person was encouraged all weekend and we had a a grand time at the dance stealingn chicken, in first person. MIche' I recall that yes you were at Wildcat, but I saw you camping down with the Confederate military, when there was a small authentic Civilian group there, and I also don't think that sitting around in flannel footie pajamas constitutes any effort on your part to maintain your so called standards.

The whole point of this post is to make everyone aware that nothing is going to be preserved or saved if all of this bickeringn and squabling keeps going on about who is going to run what event. Shw upo support the site and help raise money. You can maintain whatever standards that you have in your own way and still have a nice time.



1st Corporal Gregory J Dodge
(Alexander H. Thompson)
Co. A 7th KY vol. inf. US

PS where is the spellcheck??? never said I could spell!

[ewtaylor]

Mr. Dodge or Thompson,
I guess I started what became a US vs Them arguement on this thread. I was just stated a fact that the Richmond event would be another "non-authentic" event. I have already apoligized for hurt feelings or egos. My point is this forum is for AUTHENTIC events and Richmond does not qualify. I have been to 2 other Richmond events and neither were very good or brought in much money for preservation whether there were farbs or c/p/h ers present. Let the mainstream have their event and the c/p/h ers have another. What is the big deal? It is nice that you attend so many events, but that is your choice not mine. I do not attend mainstream or farb events anymore because the last 5 I have attended (in or near KY) have had serious safety concerns. These events included Wildcat 2003, B'ville 2003, Jonesville 2003, Cumberland Gap 2003, and Richmond 2002. I could go on and on about the events in Ky, but this is not the place.
ewtaylor
bluegrass rifles

[Miche_Todd]

[QUOTE=Yankeeboy]MIche' I recall that yes you were at Wildcat, but I saw you camping down with the Confederate military, when there was a small authentic Civilian group there, and I also don't think that sitting around in flannel footie pajamas constitutes any effort on your part to maintain your so called standards.
QUOTE]


Hmmm, must be talking about Sunday morning when we decided it was beyond all hope and just wore our AC shirts and jeans the rest of the day. And as far as an authentic camp at Wildcat in that area, we were the ONLY authentic camp in that area, no wall tents, no coolers, no air mattresses and no non pc cots. BTW, for the record, I don't even own flannel footed PJS. I have some nifty flannel ones with frogs, but no feet sorry.

And as far as safety issues are concerned, I feel it important to mention that out of a two day event at Wildcat, two people were injured. One on both days. At Cynthiana KY a horse was put down as a result of a drunk rider riding into traffic. I could go on and on. As I have said, this was my last year for mainstream. I grow tired of all of the bickering and back biting that goes on among many of these events and units. It is silly really. If someone is comfortable going to events like Wildcat and Sacramento KY. Fine. Have fun. If an event is willing to work towards a more authentic event. Great I will help. But I am not in for the same old mainstream events. Almost every event I have attended in Ky is basically the same event with the same people in a different location. I am fortunate to have gained admittance to a number of EBUFU events this year, and plan to make the most of it. Quite frankly I don't have time for the bickering anymore, and I suggest that everyone else does the same. The ordeal that Mike and I went through last year has taught us that life is much to short to worry about things in the , I say move on. What we were discussing is the possibility of an authentic event at Richmond, if that isn't possible, I'm sure there are plenty of sites that would love to have a good lh next year.

How on earth did this turn into a discussion of the Camp Wildcat event on the Authentic Campaigner !! lol

[paulcalloway]

Mainstream events may be promoted at the following internet-locales:

CWReenactors (http://www.cwreenactors.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=list&forum=DCForumID11&conf=events_conf)
Camp Chase Gazette (http://campchase.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=113)

If there is a legitimate preservation component to the event, we may even allow a posting here on our preservation folder (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12).

We will not however be maintaining this folder or this thread for the purposes of promoting mainstream events. As the folder clearly states, this is for Authentic Events.

Nor is the Authentic Campaigner website a place for anyone to come and assail progressives / authentics / hardcores with insults and barbs. Allegations of being "Holier-than-thou" or "stitch-counting" are not appropriate terms - they are meant to be insulting and will be received as such. While we are always open to legtimate criticism, we will not allow this forum to devolve into name-calling, feigned outrage and baseless attacks.

If these policies seem unfair to you, you're welcome to frequent another forum or create your own.