Recommendation Requested: US Wagon Harness

[verg]

Dear Friends,

I am hoping someone here might be able to offer some advice on acquiring correct harness for an ambulance I am working on. Pattern, hardware, maybe someone who would even like to make it.

Thanks!

John Novicki

[tmattimore]

This appears to be a common light driving harness with the addition of an extra shaft carrier on the britching most likely to help with the extra weight of the wounded passangers. I have never found a spec for ambulance harnnes in this era. As ambulances were fairly new and the arsenals were busy with artillery harness this is very likely an off the shelf purchaseDear Friends,

I am hoping someone here might be able to offer some advice on acquiring correct harness for an ambulance I am working on. Pattern, hardware, maybe someone who would even like to make it.

Thanks!

John Novicki

[Chuck Winchester]

John,
that's a great picture and one I haven't seen before. Not to change the subject but there's a good view of a period civilian saddle that several people here have inquired about before. Can you get a better close-up of that saddle? It could add to our edification! Thanks,
Charles Winchester
Critters

[verg]

Dear Chuck,

Thanks for the input. Any suggestions on where to go for this rig?

Here is an enlargement of the saddle you asked about. From the picture, it is very similar to the saddle I use for RevWar.

Yours,

John Novicki

[CJSchumacher]

Dear Chuck,

Thanks for the input. Any suggestions on where to go for this rig?

Here is an enlargement of the saddle you asked about. From the picture, it is very similar to the saddle I use for RevWar.

Yours,

John Novicki

That looks very similar to many civilian flat or english saddles of the period. I had posted a diagram for the saddle to be used from an 1834 manual and what is thought to be the 1833 Dragoon saddle. Here is a link to an article from the Military Horse about it with links to diagrams from the manual.

http://militaryhorse.org/articles/holmes/1834manual.asp

The point being, this style of saddle has origins well before the American Revolution and survives to this day. Quite an amazing piece of horse equipment.

By the way...check out these photos of the actual "mystery" saddle. Note the closeup showing the underskirt...ie. leather top, heavy cloth lining, vertical quilting...very common pad throughout th 19th. century.

http://militaryhorse.org/articles/holmes/mystery.asp

Good luck with your project...you can never have enough horse drawn anything! I'd really love to see wagons being pulled by mules on a jerk line hitch with one driver on the near wheel horse...now that would be something!

[CavLt]

Correct me if I am wrong (I am getting really bad resolution off the photo) but it appears to be a variation on a hame type harness instead of a light driving harness.
To me it appears that the tugs are running to a collar and not a chest piece. The hold back on the britching does have an extra piece that appears to be there to help with weight. (the whole rig looks like it should have a mark that says you need to be this tall to ride :D )
If you live anywhere in the NY, PA, OH area, I am sure any amish harness maker could reproduce this harness given photos and enough information, but you will probably have to look elseware for the correct hardware.

Jay Johnson

[verg]

Hmm . . . chest piece or collar? Here is another pic Whatcha' think?

John Novicki

[verg]

Here is the entire image . . . The image is from May of '63 . . .

[CavLt]

John,

It looks like it employs a collar to me. Definetly not what I consider a light driving harness.

Jay Johnson

[tmattimore]

Definetly collar and hames. To me a light driving harness from the apperance of the size of the straps. The gig saddle is not clear so most of the padded types with patent covers would not do. Dover books has published a few reprints of 19th and early 20th century harness and tack you might get some ideas for hardware from them. The gray, in harness, appears to have checks probably a head tosser

[CavLt]

I should claryify myself on a earlier comment before it leads to a lengthy side discussion. In our area, what the rest of the world calls the traces, we call tugs. Why, I don't know :tounge_sm

Jay Johnson

[tmattimore]

Jay
An often used term in most parts of the country. Actually the difference to a harness maker is that a tug is a short piece attached to the hames with either a buckle or toggle and ring to which the traces are attached. if the traces are sewn to the hames they are called tugs. Generaly interchangable terms.

[cavman63]

Thats a very cool picture. Good luck on putting your impression together. there is not nearly enough of that sort of thing around this hobby. may even see ateamster impression in my future.

On a side note Ive been interested in that type of "english" civilian saddle for some time now would love to see one up close.

Thanks for posting that pic.

[verg]

Dear Friends,

Thank you for all your advice.

A vendor has suggested this rig. What do you think? It certainly resembles the ones pictured in the NA photo. The maker uses Herman Harness Leather.

The only other piece of info is this letter I found in last week's fishing expedition at the National Archives:

". . . tree and plates of best iron. Terrets of solid brass with loose rings of the same. Hooks of solid brass and leather strap attached. Skirts 22 inches long, 5 inches wide and 3/16 of an inch thick. Tops 8 inches wide, 15 inches long and 3/16 of an inch thick. back bands 4 feet long 1 1/2 inches wide and 3/8 of an inch thick. Billets on bottom of skirts: 9 inches long. The skirts, all straps, tops, back bands and billets of good oak tanned leather . . ." (D.C. contractor's letter describing what he has supplied to the QM for the Med. Dept.)

[CavLt]

Just curious,

Can they change out the chrome hardware and add the double strap that appears to assist with the added weight on the fills.

There also appears to be some significant differences in the bridle.

Coupled with the photos, it could be a starting point to build from, if photos are the only refernce material available.

Good Luck with your project, and I hope you can share a few photos of the end result.

Jay H. Johnson

[verg]

Jay,

Thanks for the feedback!

The picture was to illustrate what he makes as standard off the shelf. As research has yielded no contracts or specifications for an established pattern for U.S. Army ambulance harnesses early in the war, they may have been the contractors of the times, "off the shelf" items.

Please help me, what are the "fills?"

Yes, he will use whatever hardware I supply, or direct him to use. No, he's not going to use chrome (I'd die . . . :eek: ) He is going to use blackened brass, or iron (steel). He is willing to handsew with rosined 5 cord linen thread. :)

Any suggestions on a place to acquire the correct hardware? I have one query out but have not heard back from my initial contact.

Thanks!

[CavLt]

John,

"Fills" are the wooden shafts that run from the buggy/cart/hack and in your case ambulance, as opposed to a draw bar and eveners (not sure I spelled that one right) that you would see on a two horse hitch.

As for the hardware, I do not know. I have never researched any sources for it.

Jay H. Johnson

[verg]

Ah, I know them only as shafts . . . perhaps a regional term?

[tmattimore]

The actual spelling is thills. The old difference between thills and shafts is that thills were detachable from the vehicle and shafts were not meant to be, for example the mountain howitzer thills for single mule draw. Thills have fallen out of usage in this century.In the photo of the modern harness the terrets on the saddle are one piece upright the description you provided are for a fall type. Their purpose is to hold the reins up out of the way of the shafts or straps. Much of the hardware you need may be found at Weaver Leather (1 800 weaver1) but they do not sell retail. It is only available in solid or chrome plated brass and will need to be painted black, a constant maintenece problem.
The modern saddle is a gig type but the originals appear to be wider and flatter with shallower stuffing pockets.
Wickett and Craig also make an excellent harness leather if you buy only their top grade not their specials and will sell in one side quantities (1 800 tannery).

[Amtmann]

Any reason you're going for the two wheel ambulance instead of a Ruckers? I used to ride a Ruckers back in the late 80s that was made after original Specs. I saw it a few years ago in Gettysburg at a Medical Display. It was funny, I knew it was the one I used to ride on right when I saw it. :)