Civil War Mandolin??

[Shamee]

I was curious about the use of the mandolin in Civil War music. I know it was probably around, I might be wrong. I figured it would be since it is used in Bluegrass. My impression is a private in the Army of Northern VA(1st VA, Company H). Would it be historically accurate to use an Italian pill back mandolin, just in camp. I'm a new reenactor, so any input about use of musical instruments in camp would be greatly appreciated.

Thank-you,

Steven Colagiovanni

[MBBursig]

I'd be curious about mandolins in general during our period. Alot of the recordings that are made include mandolin i.e. David Kincaid.
I play a modern Fender that is the tear shaped style. (The rounded shape that you think of with a mandolin.) I wouldn't even know where would you get a period 19th Century styled Mando. Specially made probably? I would also assume cat gut strings as well?
I would almost hate to bring it to an event though. Imagine: Hard to carry on the march & mud caked into the tuning pegs. :confused: :) Just kidding. Still we should find out about its authenticity.
Cheers,

[K Bartsch]

I always thought it was Bill Monroe who introduced the mandolin to Blugrass/Mountain music -- if so, that means it's a 20th century development and anachronistic at Civil War period events.

Anyone?

Cordially,

[ferraius]

I don't think this is the place to be talking about Bill Monroe or Bluegrass music. I don't even know why you would want to play a mandolin at a Civil War event in the first place. Be a man and learn how to play a minstrel banjo or fiddle. There were a lot more or those in the camps than mandolins.

Jon O'Harra

[K Bartsch]

I don't think this is the place to be talking about Bill Monroe or Bluegrass music. I don't even know why you would want to play a mandolin at a Civil War event in the first place. Be a man and learn how to play a minstrel banjo or fiddle. There were a lot more or those in the camps than mandolins.

Jon O'Harra

Mr O'Harra,
I was merely trying to make the point that in my opinion, mandolins probably shouldn't be played at Civil War events. My mention of Bill Monroe was intended to elicit comment from those more learned than me on the correctness of my belief that Monroe introduced, or at least popularized, the mandolin to American Appalachian folk music during the 20th century. That's all. lighten up.

[dave81276]

The mandolin certainly existed then. I believe Colagiovanni is only trying to determine what style of mandolin is period-correct. As someone who can only play a radio, I'm only interested from a trivia standpoint. At least he doesn't want to play bagpipes!

-Dave Eggleston

[Possum Skinner]

Unless you are supposed to be a recent Italian immigrant, playing parlor music, forget the mandolin. The mandolin was NOT an accompaniment instrument for any "popular" music of the day. Although it is a very old European instrument, and certainly existed in the U.S. before and during the war, it was not popularly used and would not be correct, P/E/C, for a Civil War setting.

It was not until the 1880's, with a greater increase of Italian immigrants, that the intrument was very widespread. It was not until the early 1900's that the modern flat-backed mandolin was introduced. It was not until Bill Monroe that the instrument was used in modern bluegrass. In short, there doesn't appear to be any justification, nor have I seen any documentation, that would support a mandolin for use as a correct instrument during the WBTS.

Actually they would be JUST as out of place as bagpipes or even an electric guitar.

Here is a link to some mandolin history :Madonlin Cafe (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/briefhistory.html)

[ferraius]

Mr. Bartsch,

I am making the point that this is not the place to run a thread about 20th century American Appalachian mountain music, bluegrass or country-western.
There is nothing worse than hearing some idiot playing a damn steel strung banjo or a mandolin at an event. That is something that is hard to lighten up about.

Jon O'Harra

Jon,

The 'Be Nice' rule is one of the basic rules of this forum. Your posts to Keith are nothing but combative and rude.

You may wish to revisit our rules:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034 (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034)

In the meantime, please consider this your First Warning.

Scott McKay, moderator
Authentic Campaigner Forums

[K Bartsch]

There is nothing worse than hearing some idiot playing a damn steel strung banjo or a mandolin at an event.

In that sir, we are in agreement, but I would add bagpipes, hammered dulcimers, autoharps, dobros and modern acoustic guitars to the list of banned instruments. :wink_smil

Cordially,

[MBBursig]

Mr. Colagiovanni, I suppose that we mandolin players will not be bringing our mandolins to an event. As previously stated unless we are representing a member of the "Garibraldis" or an Italian immigrant then it would possibly be correct. As I am only versed in the Celtic renderings for the instrument any attempt at Italian music would be rare for me.
So the mandolin shall yield to authenticity.
I suppose I will stick to the Tin Whistle for events (or I could always learn the fiddle which is very similar to the mandolin depending on the tunings of course). Do not worry sirs I have no aspirations to play the dobro or bring one to an event.

Cheers,

[Old Cremona]

In that sir, we are in agreement, but I would add bagpipes, hammered dulcimers, autoharps, dobros and modern acoustic guitars to the list of banned instruments. :wink_smil

Cordially,

actually, on the old authentic campaigner website, a lady posted an 1860 picture of a person with a hammered dulcimer.

[Shamee]

Thank you everyone for your, umm........ spirited posts. I just enjoy playing mandolin and thought it would be fun to play it at an event, I didn't really think about annoying other people. I don't know that much about the instrument except how to play it, it is an instrument I recently picked up. I didn't know about it not being used in bluegrass before Bill Monroe. THanks for all the information. I realize now that it will take more resources than I have access to and more money than I have to make it truly historically correct, and it would have been rare or nonexsistent in the Civil War anyways. I didn't think of the catgut. This would be an interesting topic to research more. If anyone has any more information please add to the post.

Thank you,
Steven Colagiovanni

[Lone_Rebel87]

I must throw in that the Irish new the mandolin and so many of them fought on both sides in the ACW that I'm sure it was heard with their traditional songs of their beloved Ireland but much reasearch would be needed to know the correct mando to have.
my $.02 worth :)

Jordan Davis

and it was used in bluegrass much before Bill Monroe came along... he just brought it forth not as a simple background intsrument only and showed that it could be played with vigor and have as much to give as a guitar or banjo or fiddle..He just played it different.

[ferraius]

So sorry Mr. Bartsch for my combative and rude behavior. I will keep my thoughts and comments to myself from now on in this forum. Please accept my appologies. Have a smiley face on me... :wink_smil

Jon O'Harra

[Possum Skinner]

Thank you everyone for your, umm........ spirited posts. I just enjoy playing mandolin and thought it would be fun to play it at an event, I didn't really think about annoying other people. I don't know that much about the instrument except how to play it, it is an instrument I recently picked up. I didn't know about it not being used in bluegrass before Bill Monroe. THanks for all the information. I realize now that it will take more resources than I have access to and more money than I have to make it truly historically correct, and it would have been rare or nonexsistent in the Civil War anyways. I didn't think of the catgut. This would be an interesting topic to research more. If anyone has any more information please add to the post.

Thank you,
Steven Colagiovanni

Steven,

Sorry if my post seemed a little "over the top". You said it all when you said "This would be an interesting topic to research more". Why not do a little research on actual period music, then look at what you can play and add to an authentic event. Soldiers loved music, heck, almost everybody loves music. I would probably love to hear your mandolin playing at a bluegrass or Celtic festival, but not at an authentic designed Civil War event. The playing would only annoy in as much as the men at the said authentic event were being assaulted by a sound that would not commonly be heard in 186X.
Gut and horsehair strings were the standard for stringed instruments, and they were often tuned in other keys as well. Period stringed instruments do not generally sound like modern instruments, and the style of playing was often different than modern styles. Someone who listens to modern bluegrass, or even old time clawhammer music, may believe that it is ancient and founded deep in the roots of America, but only its very deep tap roots are there: some of the lyrics and modal designs.
Do some research. There are many venues out there. Make a joyful noise in camps, but do it like they did it. When you start researching some of those very old tunes and folk songs you will be amazed at some of the things you will find.

[David Swarens]

Hello all.

Mandolins were documented in America before the American Revolution, according to one site/cite I turned up, but it was the concert tour of "the Spanish Students" c 1878 (i.e.post Civil War) that really got the fad going.

While this group apparently actually played bandurrias, and not mandolins, many of the "knock off" groups, and they were legion, used the mandolin, and there are Spanish as well as Italian mandolin traditions.

The Spanish Students were reinactors of sorts, dressing in "costumes" of the middle ages, or something inspired by such (the original "farbs"?) and the "Estudiantina" is still a musical genre in Spain (and Mexico).

So the instrument is not limited to only Italian, or only recent immigrant, traditions, but was still very rare in the American scene PRIOR TO 1878.

The earliest American method book for the mandolin that I have run across is:
"Ryan's True Mandoline Instructor" for the "Spanish and Italian Mandoline."
published by John Church Co. of Cincinnati, New York, and Chicago, in 1885

And of course the instrument was the bowl-back or "tater bug" refered to, and not any flat instrument (a 20th century development).
Late 19th century instruments are quite common on the "vintage" market, and this type is (usually) the instrument of choice for classical players.

Also the early style of playing would not be the one familiar to modern "Bluegrass" musicianeers either, but more the manner used in the mandolin orchestras or by classical players.
And the intrument did use wire strings,not gut.

It would be nice if some of the folks interested in playing the mandolin in the first half of the 1860s would keep their eyes open for any period references; I haven't run into any myself, but they might be out there!

David Swarens

[MBBursig]

Thanks for that last bit of info David. Every little bit helps us Mandolinists. :) I found a little bit more info on the web searching for period mandolins, but all I came up with was a small influx of popularity in the 1850's when the immigration from Southern and Central Europe increased. I think it said something about "parlour music" as well. That was on "secondary source" styled website so I do not have a period reference to prove that. Other then that all the same information everyone else has provided has shown up.
So it seems the mandolin was around, but not to the popular effect that the banjo or fiddle was. Fair enough. :)
Cheers,

[John Keller]

Mr. Colagiovanni,

The little bit of research I've been able to do on Civil War and the mandolin indicates that the mandolin first came to the United States in the 1850s, brought by Italian and Eastern European immigrants. I do understand that the instrument was a somewhat rare curiosity during the Civil War period, but it definitely did exist here. Having said that, I believe the only mandolins of the period were the bowl-back "tater bug" mandolins. I believe that American Orville Gibson is credited with inventing the first flat-backed mandolins around 1900, so certainly any flat-back A or F model mandolin would not be accurate for Civil War portrayal. For more information on mandolin history see http://www.vintagemandolin.com/mandohistory.html

Please do be careful with bluegrass music, as I do not believe it mixes with the Civil War. I believe that Bill Monroe is credited as the "father of bluegrass," which he first performed in the 1920s. Bluegrass, as I understand it, is a combination of oldtime music, jazz, and blues, but I digress. Oldtime music I believe is accurate for the Civil War, but in a limited way, so I advise that we be careful with it, and I just don't have a solid feeling for how widespread it actually was at the time.

As recorded music was not around yet in the Civil War, I just don't know if oldtime (also called "mountain," or "country" music) had become "popular" music during the Civil War. My opinion is this kind of music was popular then, but highly regionalized in and around Appalachia; it certainly was not so popular as minstrel music, for example. I could be wrong about this; it's just a guess. Any other information out there?

Still, we all know that the Civil War was a great cultural melting pot. I can't imagine that mountain music was not a part of some Civil War camps, particularly those recruited in and around Appalachia. I'm sure there were times when minstrel musicians played alongside oldtime musicians, and I believe that the Civil War may have been one of the first opportunities for oldtime music to be played and heard on a large scale.

So, having said all of this, I believe that oldtime music and mandolin are fair game for Civil War reenacting -- but within limits. If we remember the context of the music, then I think we can go forward. What are the chances that an Italian or Eastern European immigrant with a bowl-backed mandolin played together with mountain music fiddlers and banjo players? Rare, in all liklihood, but it must have happened somewhere.

If and when these guys had a chance to play together, they must have had fun. I can't image the delight (well, then again, I certain can imagine) that a fiddler would have had when he first heard the mandolin, and realized it was strung and tuned exactly like his own instrument. I'm a fiddler who dabbles in mandolin, so I've had that experience. Don't you think some American-born fiddlers who first heard mandolin arranged purchases or trades to acquire the instrument? I know I would have, and undoubtedly it did happen on a very limited basis in the Civil War. That's how music evolves, after all, and the Civil War was an amazing opportunity for blending music.

John Keller
Milford, N.H.

[61NC]

Friends,
The "Hutchinson Family Singers" occasionally used a mandolin in their act in the 1850's and todays "Amoskeag Players" occasionally use one as well according to their website. Mr. Jerry Ernst has a interesting article about period instuments, I believe you can find that on a link from the 140th NY webpage. I've read that there were mandolin orchestras in New York and Boston in the 1850's, but I can't remember where I saw that now. Though they were not pec until after the war they were here. I hope someone can find some documentation of a soldiers use during the war as I like to play an old bowl back around the fire.

respectfully,
curt cole

[fidlr1]

[QUOTE=John Keller]Mr. Colagiovanni,


Please do be careful with bluegrass music, as I do not believe it mixes with the Civil War. I believe that Bill Monroe is credited as the "father of bluegrass," which he first performed in the 1920s. Bluegrass, as I understand it, is a combination of oldtime music, jazz, and blues, but I digress. Oldtime music I believe is accurate for the Civil War, but in a limited way, so I advise that we be careful with it, and I just don't have a solid feeling for how widespread it actually was at the time. ""

"Bluegrass music" in the format we know now was not performed until the 1940's, so it mixes about as well with the civil war as big-band swing...
Many "old-time" tunes still heard today have been found in printed collections from before the CW--"Soldier's Joy" for instance, but many "old tunes" may be from the 1880's or later. So many of these passed along from
musician to musician without being published in sheet music, makes it hard to pin down the provenance.

[kenneth smith]

I'm the ignorant Aussie who started this argument. my understanding was that mandolins were popular in the north in the 1850s. As far as what form they took, the first American manufactured mandos were called American bow-backs (I have one at home made in Phillie; it isn't dated but it's very old) I'm not a re-enactor I'm learning to play the mando and am keen to learn songs from all over the world. I have e-mailed the 52nd regiment string band for clarification (they have a mando in their line-up)