How do you motivate others or improve the hobby? [Archive] - Page 2

Lone Guard

12-04-2006, 01:35 PM

I'm actually writing an article on this right now.

In my old mainstream unit there were some hefty dudes, and when it came to the rank and file it presented a safety issue because sometimes I'd be firing over the wrong shoulder or some such risk. I remember one time when the order to fire at the left oblique was given, a new recruit (not me) got pushed inward because of the portly fellow next to him so that the hammer was 3 inches from the ear of the guy infront front of him and to the right. Immediately the order "fire" was given and the man in the front rank screamed in agony.

I used to weigh 270 pounds, I'm now down to 210 pounds, and after taking the ROTC Physical Training class next semester I hope to get down to where I should be, at 180 pounds. Not all of it is fat, but still too much of it is.

My opinion on the subject is, if a person isn't pushing other 1st or 2nd rank men down the line so that it's putting barrels too close to a file mate's face, or pushing some poor fellow to shoot over the wrong shoulder, and so long as they can keep up with the march; I don't really have a problem with it.

I can understand guys who are atheletic and have a large upper body. In all my jobs I'm always using my upper body and shoulders so I'm actually quite wide in the shoulders. I'm a 36 inch waist, and a 46 inch chest. So I too need to make a bit larger fatigue sack coat.

JacobReichwein

12-04-2006, 01:48 PM

So whats next... Am I going to have to step on a scale before being allowed to attend an event?

Well if they check to see if I have correct underwear on, then why not check to make sure I am of accurate weight?

My apologies, this post was in no way meant to insult anyone. It was merely an observation.

In my eyes, as long as there are guys honoring our ancestors, that's what is most important.

Bill

12-04-2006, 02:21 PM

I'm probably in the top age group of people who do CPH events. I was 60 years old when I climbed Rich Mountain. I try to keep my weight down and dye the mustache during the season. I kid myself that I more or less fit in with a line of soldiers, but I'm very aware that darn few Civil War generals were as old as I am.

The simple truth is anybody over the age of 40 is too old to be portraying a Civil War soldier. The other truth is that if everybody over the age of 40 got out of the Hobby, it would leave a pretty big hole in the ranks.

I hope I've still got a few more years of reenacting left in me!

Hoosier

12-04-2006, 02:24 PM

The types of foods we eat today differ greatly from those available during the mid 19th century. Our modern diets consist of a disproportionately high amount of carbs. This lends to the theory of why we have so many diabetic cases today as compared to the past. Many people are not naturally able handle an inordinate amount of carbs to begin with.

Also, the foods they ate back then were what you could call natural or "pure" foods. What they ate did not have a great deal of additives or preservatives nor where they overly processed foods which in turn corrupts the healthiness of foods. Whatever they ate was usually freshly made and eaten right away. Junk food, nutra sweet, and trans fats were unheard of then.

Conversely, the diet of a Civil War solider, while not well rounded (lacking ample quantities of fruits and vegetables), consisted mostly of a high protein (salt pork, salt beef, beans, etc.). While carbs were consumed by soldiers, they consisted largely of simple carbohydrates: hard tack (water & flour), freshly baked bread, rice, etc.

If one were to look at the wounded soldiers' physiques that were photographed for the purposes of medical research (found in The Civil War: An Illustrated History by Geoffrey C. Ward, Ric Burns, and Ken Burns), you can easily see the extent of the “leanness” that the represented soldiers embody.

Comparably, American Indians who inhabited the Great Plains sported similar physiques to that of Civil War soldiers, as they had a high protein diet as well. They were hunter/gathers who subsisted largely off buffalo and deer meat. If one were to survey 19th century pictures of scantily-clad Plains Indians you would notice that they have predominately lean and sinewy bodies, much like there Civil War soldier counter-parts did.

H. L. Hanger

12-04-2006, 02:43 PM

I believe this question is as old as reenacting/living history/etc. is itself...and will never be resolved!

Nevertheless, two things do pop into mind:

First, what was the average size (weight, height, etc.) of the typical CW soldier...and how does that compare with the "average" size of men today? Perhaps we should allow only those participants who "measure" up...or down!

Second, what was the general health of the typical CW soldier? For example, did he have all of his teeth? Should we allow "caps" on teeth or modern bridges/dentures? Probably not...just gum it! Was he allowed corrective vision via contacts? Of course not! Well, then, correct prescription glasses only with correct frames!

The most ridiculous item of the day....ask O'Reilly.

cprljohnivey

12-04-2006, 04:27 PM

"Well if they check to see if I have correct underwear on, then why not check to make sure I am of accurate weight?"

Define Accurate Weight please?

PvtShot

12-04-2006, 04:31 PM

What a debate!!!

I am 6'7" tall and weigh 260lbs, and can march all day long. I know a couple of rather slender fellas that would fall apart on a campaign march. Just look at the NFL, there are some rather large defensive linemen that will out-run just about anyone on this forum.

This issue is simple to resolve... if you are at an event like the LBL and have to fall out of the ranks because you simply can't manage the marching, it doesn't matter how much you weigh, just stick to LH events.

I have come to the conclusion that I will never be 100% immersed at an event. There will always be someone there who has sub-par gear, someone who wears top-notch gear like a farb, or yes, someone who is too short and overweight to even come close to an original. So, lets all try to have fun with your pards and honor the brave men who sacrificed everything. Hopefully we will never hear this phrase "If they'd had big macs they'd have used them!" God save us all!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
Eliot Toscano
(The Buckras)

"Let me die with the rifle in one hand and the good book in the other!"

dixiecowboy25550

12-04-2006, 05:04 PM

I think this was more of a discussion into the authenticity of overweight people, not a singling out of people who arent of the "correct" weight. A better statement may have been to address people who are clearly out of shape. While we can't help modern food and medicene and todays growth of the human body, we can help people being out of shape. To the gentlemen who posted earlier about their age and weight, its great that the hobby still has guys like you around. I noticed in your posts (for instance at Rich Mountain) that you are active campaigners and work so that you can particpate in events. Kudos, without men like you the ranks would be thin.

I think the quote about "man," "methods," and "materials" said it best. The bottom line with this discussion (at least in my opinion) is not that we have portly fellows in the ranks, but that we have people who cannot handle the physical intensity of "authentic" type events. If you are 70 and weigh 500 lbs, but still have a good kit and can handle the rigor of these type of events, why not? Being out of shape is just one component of the kit and like attitude, knowledge, material, and equiptment involved; it can be helped.

laudable_pus

12-04-2006, 05:32 PM

Lest we get the impression that everyone in mid-19th century American had Twiggy's build, take a look at the photo below. Note the "big-boned" gents, second from the left and first from the right. Ironically, they are "heavy" artillerymen.

http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/images/271.jpg

Kevin O'Beirne

12-04-2006, 05:49 PM

Well if they check to see if I have correct underwear on, then why not check to make sure I am of accurate weight?

For the record, the above type of comment is one of those "myths about hardcores" that folks who don't attend "campaigner" events like to spread around. I've never seen or heard of this being checked at an event, ever.

JacobReichwein

12-04-2006, 05:52 PM

I know they dont check it, I was exaggerating a tad ;) I apologize Sir.

Rebel Yell1863

12-04-2006, 05:59 PM

For me reenacting has been my motivation to loose weight. I've spent a lot of money on accurate reproductions and to be overweight is just not accurate. During the campaign season losing weight is not a problem, I call it the "Johnny Reb Diet Plan." All the marching and walking I do, then eating a handful of cornbread and salt horse, and drinking a lot of water, you'll loose weight!!:tounge_sm

Bummer

12-04-2006, 06:19 PM

I too am one of those big old guys--but even at 54 I was combat fit in the army infantry (instructor at the NCO acadamy at Ft. Bragg) when I retired. I started as a size 44 long--arrived in middle age with a size 48. Now I am almost 62 with the goal of becoming the oldest campaigner private to still be 'doing it' (yes, I enjoyed Rich Mt.). However I, like many, am an example of true 'middle age spread'--not the joke about the gut, but the real speading of the ribcage as I get older--it has nothing to do with fat...hence the increase in size.

Anyway, all that aside. As a collector I have a few original uniforms...and I have one (Union) that I can still wear--not that I would, but it's nice to know that there was at least one original boy who was a big as me! As long as I know that (and can keep up) I don't feel too bad.

crneilsen

12-04-2006, 06:48 PM

Coat sizes can be a little deceptive. I also have a big chest. I wear a 46 coat because I have a 46 inch chest. My waist is small and often people put me into the "small" category. I look slight at first. I only stand 5'8".:o

**Please add your full name to your signature line in your profile so that it appears in every post, per the AC Board posting rules.**
Michael Semann
Administrator

DougCooper

12-04-2006, 07:37 PM

Good post and a good thread to start especially during the holidays.

I look at this topic from a couple of different perspectives. As a vendor, I'm privy to information that most of us wouldn't share with our wives. It's hard to lie to the tape measure and I've got every one's waist measurement on file. Don't worry, the file is encrypted and the code will die with me.

However, I can come up with a bell curve of sizes and can see weight trends. When I first started, most guys were 42-44 chest, then they expanded in the late 90s to a 44-46 chest, then went back down slightly during the Atkins craze, but we're now back up again. These aren't just guestimates. I can pull up reports on my computer to see how many of each size garment I sold. It's interesting, but doesn't really mean much as one coat (in either a 34 or 63) can throw off the whole bell curve.

I once had a friend tell me "The cheapest part of your impression is staying skinny". That was easy for him to say as his metabolism allowed him to stay as thin as a rail.

Losing weight and keeping weight off isn't easy. I'm a boot camp instructor at our YMCA and know how hard people work every day to lose a single pound. I really admire how much effort the boot campers put into this. I personally will never look at some one's weight as a factor in authenticity. There are too many luxuries in our 21st century life that work against us, coupled with genetics and illness I think it's a struggle that we all deal with in one form or another.

I once had an idea of having a "Reenactor Biggest Loser" contest and would offer uniforms as prizes to those who lost the most percentage of body weight, but in the end, I think the logistics would be too hard.

Anyway, I wish everyone the best of luck this holiday season in keeping off the pounds and make your new year's resolution early and stick with it throughout the winter!

This is simply a stream of conciousness on an age old hobby phenomena, unless we can come up with something new such as a reenactor weight control program or resolve that only skinny guys can go to authentic events or all the vendors can only be allowed to produce size 1-4, with a few 5-8 allowed for special cases.

Obivously I am kidding, except about the weight control part.

Chris' post mirrors me almost exactly. I am very happy to say that now my size 36 trousers have plenty of room and size 44 jackets are no longer snug. At 6'1", I started to panic when the scale touched 200 lbs and can thank Pilates and hiking for arresting that trend.

Soldiers looked like soldiers because they lived the life. They could not help it. Recall that a more substantial waistline was a sign of affluence in civilian society. Your avg soldier did not go home after the war and spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to maintain his soldierly physique, and unless he was a farmer or laborer before the war and went right back into the fields and factories, he probably gained weight once exposed to good food, good water and not having to march or drill all day.

My favorite quote about drill and marching was from a Union private who pronounced it "harder work than farming." Indeed. If we did what they did we would look like they did. Most of us in the march/climb/dig/drill end of the hobby, whose idea of a good time is a long preservation march, have less trouble maintaining our weight.

But we need to think about our weight in a much greater context than the hobby, obviously. I got in better shape because of my family...not so I would be acceptable on the field. Health is life. I used to look upon a very overweight reenactor as an authenticity issue...now I look at it as a health issue and mentally go over the steps of CPR and heat stroke.

CJDaley

12-04-2006, 07:39 PM

if you are at an event like the LBL and have to fall out of the ranks because you simply can't manage the marching, it doesn't matter how much you weigh, just stick to LH events.

Zactly. I've been on marches where the 16 year old skinny kid had to fall out, but the 74 (that's right seventy-four) year old private and the 300+ pound sergeant fniished the march.

I'd be pretty bummed out if a guy 4 1/2 times my age out marched me...

...of course at this point in my life that guy would have to be 162 years old!:cry_smile

Citizen_Soldier

12-04-2006, 09:34 PM

Greetings,
A few years ago myself and a research partner did some extensive research on Anthropometrics and presented at a national museum conference and had a portion of our research published in a museum journal.

The main bulk of our research was examining thousands and thousands of random samples of WW1 enlistment forms for the Iowa National Guard and then doing a fair bit of work to draw conclusions from the data. Our findings were that the typical male during the early part of the 20th century from Iowa exhibited a 36" chest. There was only an extremely small fraction of men who were around a 42" chest or bigger. When we compared this to other research done in the Anthropometric field we found that the average chest size of 36" in the male American population of European decent was standard from the Revolutionary War through WW2. It's not until after the second world war when chest sizes start to increase in large numbers, there's a few reasons for that some of which include a more sedentary lifestyle,the use of corn syrup and other sweetners, and fast food. The chest numbers have gone up from about a 36" chest to about a 41 -44" chest in about 60 years.

Now concerning the civil war there was a study done I believe in 1863 of a sample of soldiers in the Army of the Potomac, numbering around 2,000 or so and it was found that the typical chest size was that of a 36" chest. Looking at other sources I would feel quite comfortable with these numbers.

Additionally we found a very very small difference in height though the last 200 years or so, when historic populations were compared to modern populations in the US.

Darrek Orwig

KyCavMajor

12-04-2006, 11:45 PM

I am 6 foot tall and go 270 or so. And I am 48 years young, but I don't recall slowing anyone down.
I continue to diet, but my constant traveling on Business makes it tough to keep weight off. And for reversing the aging process... well I m open to suggestions lol.
I "ain't the man I used to be", but I have always wore a size 50 or so jacket to fit my shoulders.
I take comfort in the fact there was a least one Cavalryman my size, Confederte General Serro Gordo Williams was a big guy, Will Dyer in his book says he ws over 300 pounds. And I think Heros von Borcke was a big guy too.
As long s I can still do with out tents or an air matress, I will keep doing this. When I cn't get off and fight on foot, I will quit.
Till then, I will diet as best I can, and keep my place in the ranks... Perhaps I can inspire younger more fit troopers, if the old fat guy can sleep on the ground, why can't you?

Milliron

12-05-2006, 11:11 AM

Ah yes, the endless "isn't being overweight farby?" discussion. In a word, yes. However, we've seen how difficult it is to get right. History, good medicine and bounty work against you.

Look at Si Klegg and His Pard, regarded by many as the be all and end all of a description of a Western Federal. Si starts out heavy enough that his uniform barely fits him--in 1862 or so. So why should you be any different, considering you are really no more of a Civil War soldier than Si is when he joins. True, Si probably isn't as heavy as some of us, but heavy he is--and he lives on a farm. Granted, this story is fiction, but if you regard it as attempting to portray "everyman," (as it was regarded at the time), it's a pretty good reference.

The other note I make is that the relative age of many reenactors is older. I discovered to my dismay that as you age, you gain weight even without eating more simply due to your metabolism slowing down. So you turn around, and boom you're a pants size bigger. I struggle with it to this day and despair of my impression because of it (YMCA here I come).

While I think that morbid obesity is really a bad thing to see in the field, I know a number of very knowledgeable people who fit that build. It's a weakness of the hobby, and not one that will be remedied anytime soon. Young bucks, come back when you're forty and we'll have a comparison of your belt size then. Until then, run down to Wide Awake Films and get in the video while you still look good.

styler

12-05-2006, 12:06 PM

While Patrick's question has been asked and asked again and in many different forms (size, age, eye color...), I don't think it's wrong to bring it up periodically. The question keeps us honest about ourselves and our goals.

There's no perfect answer to the question. As with the saying "youth is wasted on the young," the folks with the time, money, knowledge and dedication for the Civil War era are usually past the skinny eighteen-year-old stage but still full of youthful enthusiasm. Considering what the physical requirements of the authentic side can be like, we should all be aware of our fitness, and as Kevin tries to keep reminding us, to be an authenticist the three M's should have equal weight in our research and portrayals. But, in the end, to borrow Mike Murley's old phrase, it comes down to keeping as many buggers as you can keep off the windshield and knowing which you can live with - and recognizing buggers as buggers.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

12-05-2006, 01:01 PM

Hallo!

"In my eyes, as long as there are guys honoring our ancestors, that's what is most important."

IMHO, while I appreciate the thought and the sentiment behind it, I do not think most folks right of "C" center on the so-called F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm actually believe that that is "most important."

Otherwise, when everything is possible, nothing is probable.
Meaning, I may consider "honoring" (an "action verb" that needs to be looked at for how we "operationalize" it and put it into practice.)
For example, I can "remember" the service and sacrifice of my ancestors through family geneaology, battlefield and relic Preservation efforts, I can clean, maintian and lay flowers and wreathes on soldiers' graves, study the history of the Civil War and the common solider, etc., etc., but go to the local Halloween Costume shop or local Stage and Theatre Supply company to rent a "Confederate General" costume for a few bucks.

The rhetorical question, IMHO, would be is that "honoring" "most important" when it comes to reenacting or better yet "living history?"

Again not a criticism or negative, just a passing observation that IMHO the Man, Methods, and Material Culture ("3M's") are "most important" for a "high quality" Civil War Living Historian individual and group impression. And that folks can "honor ancestors" in many many ways that have nothing to do with impressions. personae, kit, and reenacting/campaigning/living history/EBUFU, etc., activities.

I did not look to see if the SEARCH feature is still intact when it came to previous discussions and stats on Civil War height and weight, and uniform sizes/cut percentages... etc., etc.

Others' mileage may vary...

Curt

Dale Beasley

12-05-2006, 01:33 PM

Well if they check to see if I have correct underwear on, then why not check to make sure I am of accurate weight?

My apologies, this post was in no way meant to insult anyone. It was merely an observation.

In my eyes, as long as there are guys honoring our ancestors, that's what is most important.

Good come-back, but the Passive-Aggressive shot has been fired. While I was in Iraq and Kuwait, believe it or not this very perception came up over and over. You have to realize that most soldiers will loose between 12 and 20 pounds while either "On Campaign" or "In-Country". Weight is a virtue of youth, where it is work with us older guys.

I weigh 187, 45 years old, 5' 9" (lost one inch in 26 years, 13 years in the Infantry had something to do with it), max my PT Test for my age, but I am 3 pounds over-weight as per the ARMY. SO, I am taped and I am 17% body fat, which makes me fit for duty and in darn good shape. BTW, after my tour in Iraq and Kuwait, my hair is gray, and I am proud of it.

BRING IT HOME PREACHER.....OK

You may look at a guy over 35 and think "he is to old and overweight to really have a good impression." I look at the younger guys and say to myself, " how many would still be marching next to me after three miles?"

During the 2003 WIG Port Gibson Death March, it was not the middle age overweight guys who were dropping out, but the young ones who just did not have the endurance. If I were not going to be on Active Duty, I would love to be at the Banks Retreat...nothing like "first person" after marching the first four miles of a road march.

I really don't believe many are in this hobby to honor our ancestors, I took my Grandfather who was with the 1ST ID on D-Day to a WWII Living History once, he just laughed and wanted me to go get him a Coke and Peanuts.

Many people in this hobby bring many things to the table. How lucky we are.

JoaquinNegras

12-05-2006, 01:42 PM

I am new to this AC place, so being a fresh fish, I don’t know much about things, but being just out of the real Army, I know that soldier now days are neither overweight or old. Well, if you count officers and NCO’s there are some old fellows, but I would think if we are acting like real soldiers back in the Civil War, and are going to spend money on gear and such to look right, we should also watch our weight. I know fellows can’t do nothing about their age, but they can about their weight whether they are young or old. Well, just thought I’d make my first post somewhere and hope I didn’t offend anyone or break any rules or make people feel bad about being overweight.

DougCooper

12-05-2006, 02:07 PM

During the 2003 WIG Port Gibson Death March, it was not the middle age overweight guys who were dropping out, but the young ones who just did not have the endurance. If I were not going to be on Active Duty, I would love to be at the Banks Retreat...nothing like "first person" after marching the first four miles of a road march.

This had been my observation as well - for every overweight or older man on a long march that gives out, 2-3 teenagers have trouble. While that may say much about the current sad state of fitness in the young, it also tends to point at the avg man that likes to do the more strenuous end of the hobby - we tend to be "experienced." Some younger kids assume it will be easy and do not prepare. The older guys have been there and know how it goes.

Actually, it is really the ultimate mid-life crisis. If I know I can complete an event like Banks' Grand Retreat with no problem, then I must really be young. ;) Oh, and this mid-life crisis is way less expensive than sports cars and 20 something blondes... :eek:

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

12-05-2006, 03:29 PM

Hallo!

Welcome, Joaquin!

Curt

Dale Beasley

12-05-2006, 03:55 PM

Actually, it is really the ultimate mid-life crisis. If I know I can complete an event like Banks' Grand Retreat with no problem, then I must really be young. ;) Oh, and this mid-life crisis is way less expensive than sports cars and 20 something blondes... :eek:[/QUOTE]

Amen, Brother!

HOG.EYE.MAN

12-05-2006, 04:48 PM

Some younger kids assume it will be easy and do not prepare. The older guys have been there and know how it goes.
Just because you're skinny doesn't mean you're in shape. I learned that lesson the hard way at The 1998 Raymond event. I was a young college student, who drank beer, ate fast foods, and lived a exercise free life. During the event, it all caught up with me. At the time, I was an experienced authentic, but didn't prepare for "tough" events. I ended up falling out with heat problems and it ruined my entire weekend there.

Now that I'm older, I know some of these hardcore events can kick your butt. I prepare as much as I can before I go, or else I don't go. Not only does event preparation keep you thinner, it helps with the tough events we all know are out there.

Dale Beasley

12-05-2006, 07:47 PM

"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"--Bob Dylan

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

12-05-2006, 08:19 PM

Hallo!

The years keep rolling by me, they rock me gently.
I am younger than I was once, and old than I'll be.
But that's not unusual, for after changes upon changes,
We are more or less the same,
After changes, we are moreorless the same...

Last verse of "The Boxer" by Paul Simon

Here's one view:

From Fox’s Regimental Losses

The muster-rolls are provided with a column in which is entered the age of each recruit. From the figures in this column it appears that the mean age of all the soldiers was 25 years. When classed by ages, the largest class is that of 18 years, from which the classes decrease regularly to that of 45 years, beyond which age no enlistment was received. Of 1,012,273 recorded ages taken from the rolls, there were 133,475 at 18 years; 90,215 at 19 years, and so on. The number at 25 years of age was 46,626; and, at 44 years,
16,070.

The muster-rolls also state the nativities of the men; from which it appears that, in round numbers, out of 2,000,000 men, three-fourths were native Americans. Of the 500,000 soldiers of foreign birth, Germany furnished 175,000; Ireland, 150,000; England, 50,000; British America, 50,000; other countries, 75,000.

The average height of the American soldiers, as shown by the records of the recruiting officers, was 5 feet 8 1/4 inches. The men from Maine, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri and Kentucky, were slightly above this figure. The West Virginians averaged 5 feet 9 inches in height. The general average would have been greater had it not included the measurements of recruits from 17 to 20 years of age, who evidently had not attained their full stature when their measurement was recorded. Out of about 1,000,000 recorded heights of soldiers there were 3,613 who were over 6 feet 3 inches, and among them were some who were over 7 feet.(+)By selecting from the whole Army, there could have been formed regiments and brigades of tall men which would have surpassed the famous giant-guards of Frederick the Great.

But tall men proved to be poor material for a long, toilsome campaign. When, after a hard, forced march, the captain looked over his company at nightfall to see how many men he had with him, the "ponies" who trudged along at the tail of the company were generally all there; it was the head end of the company that was thinned out.

The records of the weights of the soldiers are incomplete; but, such as they are, they indicate that the average weight was 143 1/2 pounds.

The descriptive lists show also the color of hair, from which it appears that 13 per cent. of the soldiers had black hair; 25 per cent. had dark hair; 30 per cent., brown hair; 24 per cent., light; 4 per cent., sandy; 3 per cent., red; and 1 per cent., gray hair.
Also, that as to color of their eyes, 45 per cent. were blue; 24 per cent. were gray; 13 per cent. were hazel; 10 per cent were dark; and 8 per cent were black.
Also, that in complexion, 60 per cent. were light; 33 per cent. were dark; and 7 per cent. were medium.
From statements as to occupation, it appears that 48 per cent. were farmers; 24 per cent. were mechanics; 16 per cent. were laborers; 5 per cent. were in commercial pursuits; 3 per cent. were professional men; 4 per cent. were of miscellaneous vocations.

(Of course, such things as lying about one's age to be "over 18" or "under 45," or exceptions, etc, etc. so noted...)

Curt
Still of the 3% Red Hair and Not Yet 1% Gray Hair Mess

Dale Beasley

12-05-2006, 08:46 PM

Curt,

You inspire me...

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now. --Bob Dylan

jfeagin

12-05-2006, 09:29 PM

Well, I have been morbidly obese and now am proud to say that I am just overweight :) Used to weigh in at 6'1" and 325lbs and a 52 inch waist (I'm talking modern waist line here). Now I am down to 227lbs and 40 inches and think realistically that I will probably lose about 10-15 more lbs and bottom out at about a 38 inch waist.

Anyway the reason to lose wieght isn't so that you'll look good for your impression but so that you'll be healthy. Looking good is just a side benefit.

As to endurance... My opinion is that it is both a mind and a body issue. That is why some older guys who aren't built like they are 20 can out-march much younger guys. They have the mental experience and stamina to ignore the discomfort and continue on. I also agree with previous posts as to preparation for an event. I excercise 6 nights a week on the bike and do some light weight lifting 4 times a week.... Makes all the difference in the world.

John Feagin

Dale Beasley

12-05-2006, 10:56 PM

John,

You are so right, it is mind over matter, or should I say Mind over Body. Your right older Soldiers and Marines know how to pace themselves, I believe that is one of the keys. Good Post.

utahreenactor

12-05-2006, 11:17 PM

Mr. Feagin,

It’s good to see a fellow reenactor who rides! In my opinion bike riding is one of the best ways to keep in shape. It is great to help build up endurance as well as the physical strength in your legs, and doesn’t beat the hell out of your body like running does. If you want to ride during the winter and weather conditions prevent you from doing so I highly recommend a spinning class at a local gym or fitness center to go along with walking for event preparation.

Chase Pinkham

Michael Shea

12-05-2006, 11:50 PM

Mr. Pinkham,

Or if a spinning class is not in the cards may I recommend a set of Kreitler rollers? You can exert yourself in a most healthful manner even during the worst weather. I find it more strenuous than riding a horse and more convenient than visiting a gymnasium.

And as far as excess weight has anyone mentioned that after recovering from the fever many men put on a great deal of weight? That valiant Marylander John Gill wrote:

"As is usual after typhoid fever, one grows fat; my weight reached 180 pounds, but after the Valley campaign, and marching some five or six hundred miles in forty days. I settled down to 136 pounds."

Michael Shea

Dan Hadley

12-07-2006, 12:59 AM

too funny- many of the responses to the original post are hilarious- if all the self-rationalizations that are applied to this "taboo" subject matter were foisted upon any other aspect of the hobby- uniforms, etc., folks would be howling how it doesn't belong on THIS forum... it's just a hobby... whatever.

Dan Hadley

JacobReichwein

12-07-2006, 08:08 AM

dixiecowboy25550

12-07-2006, 09:04 AM

Dale Beasley

12-13-2006, 04:03 AM

With the Server Crash and all...does this mean we can play on this thread again?

JacobReichwein

12-13-2006, 08:03 AM

Guess so ;) However, I believe that there is little more we have not previously covered.

ElizabethClark

12-13-2006, 09:53 AM

Or, not.

:)

Belleof Dixie

01-24-2007, 10:11 AM

As a newcomer to the A-C and the hobby (2 years), I have been ardently trying to learn the rules and read all of the "Everyone Read This" threads and posts. I am a bit hurt by one particular quote:

The AC was not started with the beginner in mind. - Jim Kindred

I don't understand how a group of people so determined to uplift and promote the "correct" form of the living history hobby could believe themselves to be above the dignity of the "newcomers" or "beginner".

It has been my life experience that old habits die hard and the sooner one learns the "correct" method or standard for accomplishing any task, the better.

I myself would loathe anyone to believe of me that I was not willing to share my limited knowledge or point someone in the right direction for correct answers I cannot provide.

I would have benefitted greatly 2 years ago from knowledge of the existence of this website as "Googling" the hobby brings up myriad search results without benefit of any indication of authenticity.

Every living historian was a beginner at one time. Nothing worth knowing or achieving is gained overnight. I personally do not subscribe to the school of thought that "he/she can learn it the hard way, just like I did". I do not enjoy wasting my time, effort or hard earned cash on shoddy, inaccurate, and Farby equipment or clothing . I would loathe to see anyone else do the same, especially were I in a position to prevent the mistake.

dusty27

01-24-2007, 11:43 AM

Lori,

If I may address your concerns, it is my understanding that the A/C was begun as a place to collect well researched, well written articles on material culture and progressive reenacting. The forum was an after thought that has become the "highlight" of the site at this point.

Just like most things in life, there are levels of interest and abilities. Yes, I said abilities. While we all started at a "beginner" level, some have graduated to a higher level. Think of it as your education. We all start in kindergarten in this country. We learn the basics and move on through school based on our ability to comprehend increasingly difficult problems.

The same can be said of this site. Like your driver's license, membership here is a priviledge, not a right. With membership, you are asked to act in a particular way and to follow some simple rules. Repeated failure to do so gets you excluded.

So in simple terms:

Kindergarten = join a unit and ask members the basic questions
Grade school = become an NCO and/or an instructor/teacher
High school = learn research techniques and begin doing research
College = come on the forum and share research and/or discuss new topics

EVERY level requires reading of primary and secondary sources of the period.

Not many who are starting the hobby can skip a step above, no matter your age. New members should not come on here and ASK/DISCUSS things from the first three levels. Not until you can share useful information should you post anything.

I hope this clears things up for you and welcome.

Spinster

01-24-2007, 12:17 PM

And,to continue along Dusty's line of thought.....

Folks have only so much time to answer basic questions--and time spent answering basic questions is time taken away from substantive reading and research.

Moderators and contributors are in the midst of an extensive rebuild of this site, after a near to catastrophic data loss. Since we are starting from scratch, we are trying especially hard to teach folks to read extensively before they ask a thing.

In short, we're trying to avoid the 'who makes the best haversack/who makes the best bonnet' sort of question. For a beginner, that's a question you ask your unit or mentor.

And, for the long run, we are trying to teach that 'who makes the best ?" is NOT really the question to ask.

The question to ask is: Based on a reading of the ORs and civilian accounts of action in the area, I'll be portraying X unit, or a lower/middle/high class civilian , and I've found out Y about these people in my research, but I can't seem to find anything about Z. Have any of you seen anything in reference to Z, or have suggestions as to original source material available that may provide the answer?

One of the best things you can do for yourself on this site is to read it throughly. Since you will be doing a civilian portrayal, head over to the civilian forums on this board and start from the beginning page since the crash. Follow all the links out---especially references that send you to Elizabeth Stewart Clark's site--her publications ARE written with the beginner in mind, and will prove a vital starting point for your impression.

No site can be all things to all people. One cannot teach first grade and college in the same classroom and fit the students into the same desks and use the same books. Both types of students are valuable, and both deserve to learn---you just can't use the same material.

Welcome!

Charles Heath

01-24-2007, 12:47 PM

The AC was not started with the beginner in mind. - Jim Kindred

The above quote should be on a bronze plaque somewhere. The origin of this thread is way beyond the pale of farbism, however, Dusty and Terre have responded so well that their answers deserve to remain in the light of day. Thank you for smacking the alert button. It does work.

If you crave "Us vs. Them," then Szabo's awaits.

Yep, here comes the lock.

paulcalloway

01-25-2007, 02:35 PM

I'm actually glad this question was asked - it's been asked and answered a few times over the years but probably lost in one of the various crashes over the years. Might even be good FAQ fodder.

Here is a favorite quote of mine:
Look, mister, there's... two kinds of dumb, uh... guy that gets naked and runs out in the snow and barks at the moon, and, uh, guy who does the same thing in my living room. First one don't matter, the second one you're kinda forced to deal with.

Beginning reenactors are welcomed here, in fact I wrote an article just for them back in 2000 (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1080). Yes they are welcomed to read anything and everything we have on the site but when they start posting here they'll need to leave the training wheels in the garage.

We can't have them here rationalizing mainstream and farb behavior - thats like running around naked in our living room. It drags the whole forum down and over the course of time its a tremendous burden on our moderators and on our established userbase.

We're here to help but we aren't here to wet-nurse.

militiaman1835

04-05-2007, 09:39 AM

Anyone know if the covers were imported along with mess tins? According to Brit sources they were oilcloth with a white buff strap to attache to knapsack. Anyone reproing these covers? I did Brit WW1 and had the khaki cover at one time. JIM HENSLEY

BrianHicks

04-05-2007, 09:43 AM

A quick use of the search function revealed this previous discussion:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2873&highlight=British+mess+tin+covers

Richmond Depot

04-05-2007, 02:50 PM

If you go to the bar at the top of this page, you will see an icon for search with a downward arrow. If you click on that, it will bring up the search engine. The icon is located third from the right on this bar. Not every question can be answered using the search engine, however, many can.

Best,

Charles Heath

04-05-2007, 05:36 PM

Jim, to answer your next probably question, contact Skilletlicker to inquire about a custom made cover for your British mess tin. They are fun cooking implements, have a little storage capacity, and work well for soaking beans, too. This may be mentioned in the threads brought up via this forum's wonderful search engine. Yes, that is a hint. Happy hunting.

Edwin Carl Erwin

04-05-2007, 09:42 PM

Jim,

Contact AC Approved Vendor Don Smith of Trans-Mississippi Depot for a reproduction British Army mess tin cover.

Regards,

JerseySkilletLicker

04-05-2007, 11:25 PM

Jim,
Nick ************ made the mess tin covers for me back when I was retailing his goods. He did an excellent job on them but did need the tin that was to be covered in order to do the job right. Not an easy task and a bit pricey but well worth it.
Nick can be found at:
histcloth@aol.com

Shoot Don Smith an email too, I have never seen his mess tin covers but am familiar with other quality goods he has made.

Best of luck,

Joe

militiaman1835

04-05-2007, 11:26 PM

Yes I KNOW where the search button is! I read the posts and if you read them you see the only mention of a maker is DEAD!! Looking for someone alive preferably!! JIM HENSLEY

nick19thind

04-05-2007, 11:36 PM

Buy a WW1 mess tin cover and paint the webbing black or tar it.

Charles Heath

04-05-2007, 11:43 PM

After enough complaints about this thread, it is time to euthanize it gently, kindly, quietly, and Nick of the 19th Indiana, please, please, please, no more gear improvement ideas more suitable for the Szabonese Liberation Army Forum. Gotta admit I laughed out loud when I read it, though. :p

Thanks.

LibertyHallVols

06-18-2007, 01:35 PM

OK...

Jim C's post ( http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11164 )has me thinking...

Let's say there's a "widget" that is being reproduced by a number of different makers.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it:
How do you know it is a good reproduction Widget? What are the steps you take to make this determination?

Assumptions:
Scenario 1: You already own the book, you read it, and you've been to the museum and looked at the original widget, or one very much like it. This is a new reproduction widget and you don't have it in hand and you don't know anyone who owns one yet.

Scenario 2: You know material culture and have viewed many original items, but you've never seen an original Widget in person (couple of websites and an ebay auction, maybe). You have yet to buy the book and no "experts" have posted about it on the "Accurate-Camper" website :wink_smil and there's yet to be an article in The Dog Watcher :wink_smil. This is a new reproduction widget and you don't have it in hand and you don't know anyone who owns one yet.

Pic a scenario that applies to you and tell me how you go about it.

JimConley

06-18-2007, 02:00 PM

If my thread didn't get you thinking, this one certainly should.

And, I'll bite, but only after I see some responses so we can try and keep this thread honest and save it from some "me too" and "ditto" posts early on.

J_V

06-18-2007, 02:42 PM

Scenario 2:

I did a fair amount of homework on the "Penitentiary Jacket" I had made. There are no surviving jackets of this type to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, I had to use a mixture of primary and secondary source material.

I looked at the statistics of fabrics produced by the Huntsville Penitentiary to get an overall idea of what I was dealing with. Then, I read articles posted by well-researched authors that contained period images and commentary on those images. I studied the images thought to contain jackets of fabric produced at said institution. Third, I consulted a vendor whose passion is the Trans-Mississippi and got some of his opinions regarding the features and construction, and he sent me an article he had written on the subject. Lastly, I chose one image thought to originate with the timeframe and theater of my concern and made feature decisions for my own garment based on that image.

As I can't sew to save my hide, I had someone who knows what he's doing put the needle and thread to work according to my specifications. i was pleased with the result, and even more proud that I had helped in its construction.

Jonathan Vaughan

27thNCdrummer

06-18-2007, 02:43 PM

Scenario # 1 describes me. Just recently I had a "widget" that I have done extensive research on and I know is correct for the unit that I portray. The "widget" being a pair of Royal Blue Kersey trousers which were issued to the unit that I portray in Oct. of '63. No one in my unit wears these but if I know that they were issued and that my repop is constructed per the originals, I have no guilt:wink_smil.

LibertyHallVols

06-18-2007, 04:41 PM

Scenario 2:
I did a fair amount of homework on the "Penitentiary Jacket" I had made.

Interesting variant... This is a garment you "had made". I was thinking more about items purchased "off the rack", or perhaps mail-order where the product was sight-unseen until money changed hands.

Charles Heath

06-18-2007, 05:30 PM

John,

Then there are those widgets that are neither reproduced nor available for viewing in collections private or public. I'm stumped on a matching set of three widgets, of which only one has been reproduced, and that run has ended. Fortunately, the measurements are given in a number of places, along with a color coding. Sigh.

Another item simply has to be in a museum or private holding somewhere, but either the owner is exceptionally tight lipped or this substance really and truly no longer exists. I'll be making some based on several rather unflattering descriptions.

Sometimes the most common items are uncommon, too. I drool over the shoe polish tin, and the cylinder matchsafe, as well as other tinware items in the display cases inside the USS Cairo museum there at Vicksburg.

I know this isn't the angle you are seeking, but I don't know if we'll ever recapture the days of folks heading to museums and digging through archives to see for themselves before they make or purchase items. Even at that, I had a fellow at a small museum in the Shenandoah Valley try to convince a small group of us that a forage cap was original, and the pattern, construction, fabric, leather, and dimestore felt 14th Corps badge screamed "repop." I'd almost bet it came from Fair Oaks Sutlery.

Ross L. Lamoreaux

06-18-2007, 05:42 PM

Very thought provoking post, John. The reason that I sew today is from Scenario
#1, with a little of #2 thrown in. For a couple of years of floating through mainstream consciousness, I wanted a decent shelter half, but I was not happy with the available options at events. As I started to see the other options that were much better researched, I found that I couldn't afford them at the time. I then sought out the available originals to look at, and finding them thin or under private ownership, I made the trek up to Atlanta to the History Center to look first-hand at an original . I made what turned out to be a pretty crappy copy since my sewing skills were limited, but over time as luck would have it, Mr. Gaede would come out with his book on the lowly Shelter half, with much better pictures and descriptions, and many more options for time period. I have since been able to greatly improve my sewing, my ability to access originals or at least decent pics, and can use the available reference materials, and come up with a passable widget for early, mid, or late war. I have tried to take that approach to everything I've made since, be it garments or accoutrements, and I've been the better for it, and I think the hobby/lifestyle in general has benefited.

LibertyHallVols

06-18-2007, 06:14 PM

I don't know if we'll ever recapture the days of folks heading to museums and digging through archives to see for themselves before they make or purchase items.

I hear what you're saying (I think)... However, I don't know that we want a lot of guys pawing through originals every time they want to make a purchase. It is time consuming and terribly inefficient if 2000 of us have to continually re-invent the same wheel every time we go to make a purchase.

Furthermore, I think that, if you look at the situiations I put forth, it can be really tough to evaluate a given reproduction, even if you have a lot of knowledge, unless you have the darn thing in your hands. We lack a basic set of common terms for evaluating a reproduction so even the recommendation of a trusted friend falls back to subjective terms, opinions, etc.

At the end of the day, looking at reproductions in comparison to originals is a never-ending process. There are always new items being reproduced, new knowledge being added, and originals that are not available for view to 99.9% of us. Many reproductions aren't even intended to replicate a particular relic, but are an amalgum of characteristics from an extant relic and/or photographs or period accounts/descriptions. Most of us end up making an educated guess or following the advice of a trusted comrade for a good portion of our purchases. After gaining an advanced degree in the reenacting "School of Hard Knocks", one's bullshit detector becomes finely honed. However, many folks prefer to focus on studying unit histories, geneology, event organization, etc., and don't have time to follow-up on the latest news in the "Gear Whore Gazette". As a hobbyist, I value what these non-gear-whores bring to the table and I don't see value in them getting left in the cold when it comes to their physical impression. How do we bring them along? If one of these guys has a 15-year old knapsack that has finally worn out or want a good pair of boots for a civilian impression, is it necessary for them "roll the dice" on a vendor?

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

06-18-2007, 07:56 PM

Hallo!

"I don't know if we'll ever recapture the days of folks heading to museums and digging through archives to see for themselves before they make or purchase items."

I don't think we will, sigh.

On the other hand, is it a Different World?

Meaning, Times change (some times for the Better, sometimes for the Worse). The Daze of having to go beating teh bushes to public and private collectors and collections to view, examine, measure, and photograph clothing and gear to be able to go back and try to locate materials and then figure out to replicate and sew or construct oneself.... passed in Time to to friends and acquaintances who made a first class Widget for themselves. Then there friends saw it and wanted one. Then a friend of friend. Then a fellow unit or mess member. And before long, or before burn-out, there was a word-of-mouth cottage industry mkaing a low production number of Widgets.

Now... it would seem... there is the WWW and "premier" makers and vendors with web sites and "click and ye shall receive" mail order that we trust to have done the Homework for wrapped up in the price of their "commercial' Widget.

And some daze, bad days at that I confess, I have to wonder if it is now not in some ways actually better. Meaning, aside what was lost on the Journey getting to the best Widget, is it not perhaps a better thing that more lads can skip the detailed minutae of Widget history and produciton, and go directly to buying them "on line" or at the better events- thus in theory, putting the best kitted and outfitted troops into the field ASAP??

With a wink and nod that actual Civil War soldiers knew little or nothing about what pattern, form, style, model, arsenal or depot, etc., etc., they wore and used- just matters of quality, how long it lasted, and how often they could expect to receive another serviceable item to replace what wore out.
IF "premier" makers/vendors serve as the arsenal/ depot why should we "care?"

(Not fully agreeing with the notion, just throwing it out....as Devil's Advocate...)

Always looking to improve my Widget, my knowledge of Widgets, and how Widgets looked and were actually used in what ways..

Curt
Heretic Mess
Proud but scarred veteran of the Good Old Daze Rifles

Texyank

06-18-2007, 08:56 PM

And some daze, bad days at that I confess, I have to wonder if it is now not in some ways actually better. Meaning, aside what was lost on the Journey getting to the best Widget, is it not perhaps a better thing that more lads can skip the detailed minutae of Widget history and produciton, and go directly to buying them "on line" or at the better events- thus in theory, putting the best kitted and outfitted troops into the field ASAP??

With a wink and nod that actual Civil War soldiers knew little or nothing about what pattern, form, style, model, arsenal or depot, etc., etc., they wore and used- just matters of quality, how long it lasted, and how often they could expect to receive another serviceable item to replace what wore out.
IF "premier" makers/vendors serve as the arsenal/ depot why should we "care?"

Kurt et alia,

Why can't it be both?

I am very new to this wing of the hobby but not to reenacting in general. I would have come sooner but never knew that this end of the pool existed.

Oh, I heard vague references to things called mudsills but never knew who they were or what they were about. I must admit that I damn my ignorance because, though my kit sucked I always sneered at the wall tents and "ammo box coolers" in the wall tents of my fellow privates. I would much rather have preferred that the journey not have taken as long as it did.

God, I am glad to be here now. Back to my point.

I, for one, think it is excellent that I can go to "J. C. Weekly" and purchase authentic reproductions though for many of the items I don't know what aspects beyond hand sewn buttonholes make them authentic. True this is not ideal but it is also not the end of the story, at least not for me. The mere purchase of the authentic gear is not the zenith of the journey.

While I don't know the details and provenance of each item of my kit, I am steadily adding to the depth of my knowledge. So, much like purchasing on credit, I am "paying" for my more authentic kit on an installment plan.

While I know neither all of the questions, answers, or even each location to seek the answers, I am constantly on the hunt for new knowledge.

pipthelimey

06-18-2007, 09:09 PM

I have a secondary question in line with the original question. If some AC-approved "Widget- Maker" makes a widget, but fudges the details, will someone who knows better cry foul, or will we simply let it slide as "not my problem," or "let those poor suckers do the research I have?"

To me, that is one of the biggest pluses of this forum. No one of us knows everything, (and there are many, like me, who know very little) but together we form a massive collective of research and knowledge. If we can help keep each other informed, and keep vendors, (the better ones anyway) honest, then we'll all benefit.

AJ

Ross L. Lamoreaux

06-18-2007, 09:28 PM

Andrew, that is happening more and more, with alot of help with forums like this but more so with individual discussions and chatting it up with the pards. Even the AC has clamped down on an approved vendor or two, just doing it privately or semi-privately. I think now with the proliferation of better and better vendors, coupled with more open and shared knowledge, even vendors with good reputations for years will be suspect if fudging on the details. The clicques in this hobby run too close to not help out their comrades. That said, there are of course still some "big names" out there who may cut some corners, but as mentioned earlier, our choices are getting more and more as of late.

Kace

06-18-2007, 10:11 PM

For scenario one:
First off if it was one of the AC approved vendors, I very might well take the risk and purchase one on the assumption it was done right. Otherwise, I would contact the vendor and find out where they did their research. Also, I would try to get to know them....do they seem to share my value in doing it right. Finally no matter who was selling the widget, it never hurts to ask about a return policy if in person it does not meet my standards. Even a restocking fee is better than having to eat the whole price if it turns to be a bummer widget.

Kace

Material Culture

06-18-2007, 11:10 PM

What if I know my Widget is incorrect... Take a gum blanket that is stamped Goodyear Patent Vulcanization process but was not produced using the dangerous chemicals. Do you seek out a vendor that uses the "authentic Process"? the same goes for Knapsacks that might be flammable.
Your thoughts?
I would like to be able to say the only difference between My Canteen and the original is that the Original was made over One Hundred Years ago.

Sam Hayle
Tinsmith Mess

ley74

06-19-2007, 12:32 AM

While I get into trouble when I do this, here goes.

One of my passions is ACV relics. Now I have studied my subject well and am very comfortable in my field. Even so, when a large purchase comes up, I often ask my dealer friend to buy the item and pay a premium, just to be sure. Most recently this involved a Tredegar bayonet.

How does this tie in? Life has allowed me to inspect a number of wonderful items from museums and private collections. In several instances, I created sketchbooks of the items. The reproduction clothes and arms are purchased from vendors that I personally know do their homework to faithfully reproduce an item.

This may come as a shock to most of you but, a number of us have upgraded our kits from first coming to the dark side. Once you have a garment in your hand and can compare it to an original, the cycle of sell and re-buy starts again. Accurate Campaigner vendors are known to produce fantasy items that may or may not approximate any original item. Most, however, work their butts off to get things right. After some trial and error, you settle in to those you can depend on. Secenario 1 works, to an extent.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

06-19-2007, 12:49 AM

Hallo!

Herr Sam!

Some lads use a Psychological Standard which is a form of a Sliding Scale of Imperfection.

Meaning, it is a "psychological standard" that exists in one's head as a chosen level of "authenticity" when to the unaided human eye (meaning without a microscope, chemical testing, or metalurgical testing') the item to the naked eye CANNOT be seen or perceived as different and can only be appreciated in the mind.

We see this done in the form of say rifle-musket barrels that are modern hard barrel steel and not period soft steel/iron, or we use aniline dye to replicate the look of actual indigo blue dyeing, or we use black acrylic dye to dye cartridge boxes instead of iron acid, or so-called "hot-dipped" tinware for period "pickle process," etc., etc.

Some things are a mtater of personal Mental Pictures. Some things are a matter of personal or group/unit/mess standards. Some things are a matter of economics. Some things are prohibitively just not done or available. Some things are done to the commonly accepted "standard du jour" of the Today.

Curt

Charles Heath

06-19-2007, 12:52 AM

John,

Considering how often the Moses Alexander haversack has been pawed over the years, it should be dust by now. That's funny when one realizes 99% of the reproductions of said item have the wrong button, about that same percentage has the wrong cloth, and three different sizes (at least) have come from three different "spot on" runs of reproductions in the past few years. There is always the MOC rap sheet for the item, but it has a well known whatzit included in the text.

If that wasn't enough, every single copy of a certain well known frock coat was incorrect, starting with the buttons, and ending with -- well, let's just say the original isn't the basic color of a manilla folder, so let's be nice. That whole garment run has so many problems associated with it, that the discussion could ramble into a number of threads from ethics to ripping off museums, so let's not dwell there.

What's a fashion whore concerned with what CW goodies are apearing on the runways of Paris and Milan to do? Well, in the parallel thread on this same topic, the smoking gun appears to be "listen to other folks." While many a dollar has been thrown away following campfire BS advice, a number of folks do seem to know what they are talking about, but by and large they don't haunt the internet. In fact, a heck of a lot of them are dead, or have otherwise moved on so as to become out of pocket.

To back up a bit, what about vendors who used to crank out some fantastic goods, but have since sold out to the Goddess of Economy Line Profits, and make three (or more) distinct product lines:

1. First class museum quality for their inner circle of comrades.

2. Pretty darn good reproductions for folks who tend to have a certain material culture radar reputation in the hobby.

3. Econo-grade knock offs with every corner cut and short cut taken. These are good enough for the masses of unwashed asses out there in just got HC4Xmas Land.

What about 'em? Let's just say some folks aren't producing the quality gear they were making a decade ago, and others are running on reputations that defy logic. Has anyone received a gray cartridge box recently, and wondered why the period dye formula reenacts differently with the higher acid (lower pH) of modern veggie tanned hides? There ya go. It ain't black for a good reason, folks.

A while back, we did have a nice how-to session about evaluating repops vs originals at one of our COIs at Fort Ontario. Perhaps John Tobey would care to add to this discussion. It was a nice class.

In the end, I find the guys who were amassing huge collections of in-stock gear during the heyday of the mess (2001-2004) are gone from the hobby these days, because they didn't get out and do anything with their uniforms and equipment. They ran out and bought "kewl" and "suh-weet" stuff, that didn't have much purpose or direction. Those boys never learned how to use the stuff they bought. That would be akin to a golfer with the finest clubs just letting them gather dust in the garage. Why be a repop clothing collector when the object of the hobby is to reenact something?

LibertyHallVols

06-19-2007, 06:52 AM

Curt & Charles,

The multi-quote feature would make my post too long, so let me just say...
Yep!

I blame the internet! ;) (kidding)

Charles, it is very interesting that you referenced the Moses Alexander haversack because it is one of the FIRST items I pondered and for the same reasons you mention. They are/have been offered by almost anyone/everyone who's ever sold a haversack. Yet, few question the various repros, despite obvious differences between the various makers.

In reference to the sliding scale mentioned by Curt:
At the end of the day, there are no perfect reproductions. Concessions are made in the interest of keeping costs down. Some materials available during the period are no longer made. Some materials are different today than they were during the period, despite being nominally the same. Some reproductions feature details that reflect the aged item after 140-some years, rather than when the item was new.

I think there are those that truly sweat the details of their impression and are (sometimes painfully) aware of the shortcomings of some/many/all of the items they use. However, the reproductions they use represent best set of compromises they can live with at the time, based on the factors listed above.

For the rest of us/them/whomever, we purchase items based on the say-so of others combined with the trust in/reputation of the vendor with little or no thought to the shortcomings that may or may not be present.

While tiresome, I think the threads discussing defarbed Enfields serve as a good illustration of how we should be scrutinizing reproductions. The threads on the LA Lorenz may be a better example. Can anyone read those threads and NOT know the concessions that have been made? I think the challenge would be to apply similar scrutiny to other areas (knowing, of course, that there are no perfect reproductions and that we should not point out the spec in another's eye without being aware of the stick in our own eye - I'm not an advocate of vendor-bashing, or any other kind of bashing, for that matter).

Why not apply the same scrutiny to RD jackets, CD jackets, great coats, or even the old Alexander haversack?

A couple thoughts:
1) I agree, the hobby happens in the field at events, not on-line or in one's closet. Get out there!!! (I'm getting better at following that advice)

2) Re: "2001-2004"... There were some heydays 5-years before that, idunno. We're in an interesting time right now to be scrutinizing reproductions. With the exit of FHW, fabric choices are down. Thank goodness CC has stepped up options to fill in the gap! However, the "good ole sources" won't be around for ever. The price of leather is continually on the rise, while sources of leather are shrinking. I heard recently that the thread used to sew cartridge boxes and all those other leather goodies we all love was in short supply. The day may come when we are forced to live with less quality (accuracy) than we enjoy today... who knows.

Pardon my rambling post... its early. Thanks all for the thoughtful replies.

John E. Tobey

06-19-2007, 08:30 AM

To truly know if your reproduction is "good," I think you have to do two things...

1. Know what metrics you want to use to determine "goodness." How good is good? What do you want to do with your reproduction? Do you want a repro that is good enough to fool a museum curator, or just good enough to fit in with your pards?

2. The only real way to make an accurate assessment of a repro is to physically compare it with an original. For complex devices, this would include an operational test. The best you can do otherwise is just an educated guess.

John Tobey

Rob Weaver

06-19-2007, 09:17 AM

I'm one of the old school guys who researches before purchasing. I like to get an idea first from the sources in my library, then from looking at museum originals. I have been blessed with a pretty good memory, so I don't get fooled too often. For some "durable goods" I head to antique stores. If you know what you're looking for, and the item in question was truly common, it's still available cheaply and you won't feel bad using it regularly. Strictly speaking of repros, I have always operated with a caveat emptor mindset with every merchant. It's my responsiblity to make sure I've acquired something both correct and correct for my impression, not theirs. That being said, I have some clothing in which corners were cut (I won't go into specific details) but they drape well and for the economics involved will suffice for the purpose for which they were purchased. I find the internet is oddly unhelpful at times, because of the unfiltered nature of the way data comes to you. You've got to wade through what you know are photos of reproductions, people's opinions of reproductions, etc, to get to the gem you're looking for.

rbruno

06-19-2007, 09:58 AM

I think this is a very good discussion to have. Because, after all how do you know if it is an accurate or good widget. When talking to people in my own unit, we are constanly asking, well how do you know. I think you need to read and then reread and then talk to people and then reread. In recent years, I have started doing more research then ever before. I have been in the hobby for 14 years and have gained more knowledge in the last couple the all of the others combined. Much of that comes from finding the first hand sources and getting out to talk to people that have done more research than me. So, again how do you know? Well, you gain as much information as you can, talk to people who are also knowledgeble, and hopefully get a chance to see an original widget. At a recent event, I was able to look at two widgets in the same vendor's tent made by two different people. The only way I knew that one was a better reproduction than the other is that I had seen an original widget and could pick out the flaws in one of the widgets and compliment the other and tell the person I was with that this would be the widget that I would buy.
I have started to make a widget because after wanting to improve my impression, I realized I could not afford to buy the widgets. So, I bought a book and some material and started to try to make my widget. I am on my 5th widget, and finally think I getting closer to makeing a good widget. I know this because I had the good fourtune of sitting with someone and looking at several original widgets, read several books on widgets, and also have talk to many people that have studied and made widgets also. I have found several vendors/people who are very happy to sit and shared knowledge and others that have not been so willing. I think some of the problem with making correct widgets is that there were so many different widget makers during the CW that there would technically be many different versions of the same widget. For instance, the widget I am just finishing is based on an original I viewed. Is it exact, no, but is it close and what I would say is correct, yes because I used construction techniques I have viewed in orginal widgets. Someone who never viewed the original, may say that mine is incorrect. At that point, hopefully a discussion would help both sides gain more information which would help everyone in answering the original question in this thread. So, what steps would I take, I would research, hopefully find originals, meet and talk to as many people as I can, and hopefully make an informed judgement on the widgets that are out there.

Rob Bruno

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

06-19-2007, 12:59 PM

Hallo!

Herr John T. said:

"...How good is good? What do you want to do with your reproduction? Do you want a repro that is good enough to fool a museum curator, or just good enough to fit in with your pards?"

As the Guinness commercial says.. "Brilliant!"

IMHO, that is where we fall (no pun intended) on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection.
The "standards" set by one's pards or one's unit are a force to be reckoned with.

And that includes having repro kit that is good enough to fool a museum curator, but creating problems because one's pards or unit runs on just good enough to fit in with your pards and get out on the field and play ASAP.

The Civil War Community continues to wax and wane, rise and fall, evolve up and down, weather fashions, trends, and fads, cycles of Designer Labels and Vendor du Jour, cyncial, jaded, burned out or actually dying veterans being replaced by excited, passionate, manic newcomers, and the Wheel being reinvented as well as going round, round, round.
:rolleyes: :) :) :)

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt
Buffalo Pards
Dinosaur Mess
Fossil Rifles

F/M/C/P/H/A Hasbeen Neverbeen Association

JimConley

06-22-2007, 03:06 PM

Assumptions:
Scenario 1: You already own the book, you read it, and you've been to the museum and looked at the original widget, or one very much like it. This is a new reproduction widget and you don't have it in hand and you don't know anyone who owns one yet.
Based on this assumption, I already have a pretty good idea of the characteristics of an original widget. Now, if I am to determine whether or not this new reproduction widget is accurate, I would look for a few things:
1. Some reference to an original(s) so I have some idea in what determined the pattern, material, and construction of said reproduction.
2. Does the vendor offer some more detailed information to the original(s) studied? Notes, measurements, quality photos, etc?
3. What about the reproduction widget differs from my studies and the original(s) that I have viewed and why?
4. Based on what information is offered about the pattern, materials, and construction, I would ask myself if there were any way that the particular reproduction could be made better, incorporating my studies and perhaps the current availability of accurate materials.

After reviewing aspects like what is listed above, I could then determine to the best of my ability, without handling the reproduction, what concessions were made and if it is actually worth buying. Of course, I guess I could just wait until someone else shows up at an event with one and have a look that way :D

But despite taking all that information into account, I can't say with confidence that anything is guaranteed upon receiving the reproduction. There will always be some concessions in reproductions vs. originals somewhere. And I like to think that is part of John's whole point...awareness.

By stating that this is a new reproduction and there is no online or published review of it yet, John took out the idea of making a purchase based on others' opinions, and to a degree, buying from a vendor who has an established name. The whole point, I believe, is to get people to open their eyes and be more studious. Even the best reproductions out there can be wrong in some small way. But, knowing what is wrong with it and knowing what is more correct about it than other reproductions is the primary idea.

For example, citing Les Jensen, Geoff Walden, or Echoes of Glory in offering a reproduction Columbus Depot jacket does not necessarily mean that reproduction is the best available. The idea is to take into account books and articles, comparing them with originals, then making an educated purchase having some idea what is right and what is wrong.

Patterns, materials, and construction. How do they compare?

LibertyHallVols

06-22-2007, 05:23 PM

There will always be some concessions in reproductions vs. originals somewhere. And I like to think that is part of John's whole point...awareness.

You Bet!! There is no such thing as a perfect reproduction. No matter what you do, you will choose to live with some inaccuracy(ies?) with whatever reproduction you choose, even if you choose to make it yourself.

In fact, I think a lot of folks choose to make items on their own in order to get a more faithful reproduction. In the initial goal, they succeed, but there is a nasty side-effect (and I state this from personal experience):
The knowledge gained will allow you to see the imperfections in the item you have reproduced, nomatter how superior it might be to something you could have purchased "off the rack"... and these imperfections will eat at you if you don't learn to accept your best effort and move on!

Anyway, I think an informed purchasing decision is one where the buyer can state the errors in the reproduction, but knows that it is the best available option, given others available on the market. It is NOT one where the purchaser can only state that either (1) "this thing rocks!" or (2) name a detail or two that is better than the next available widget.

Anyone out there ever buy the latest "kewl" item only to hear that its "not-so-kewl" a couple years later and that someone else is now "kewl"? Guess why that happens!

...if all that rambling makes sense... :tounge_sm

By stating that this is a new reproduction and there is no online or published review of it yet, John took out the idea of making a purchase based on others' opinions, and to a degree, buying from a vendor who has an established name. The whole point, I believe, is to get people to open their eyes and be more studious. Even the best reproductions out there can be wrong in some small way (Edit by Wickett: Even the best ARE wrong in some small way... but that's OK, as long as you know and accept it). But, knowing what is wrong with it and knowing what is more correct about it than other reproductions is the primary idea.

Again, you've got it right. Put the brand name aside and take a look at the item.

There is another minor point to the situations that I put forth, and that is that making an informed decision without getting your hands on something (or at least some really good photos) can be really tough.

I'd say you've hit the nail on the head.

Becky Morgan

06-24-2007, 02:06 AM

I have no interest in starting a flame war. However, Mrs. Clark suggested we might want to break this out into its own thread.

Given that the true perfect impression is impossible, since it would require a 19th-century person in original clothing and surroundings, what do we do when real accuracy in impressions or museum displays is impossible? Is it better to do nothing (which would doom many a public venue to closure) or to do the best we can?

In the hypothetical situation I mentioned--a docent thinks the shawl she picked up from the display doesn't go with her dress--there is no reason to think a modern sweater is the next step. Most visitors staring at the shawl would be avid knitters or crocheters trying to figure out the pattern. However, if a real rivet-counter showed up and asked whether the maid was putting on airs, an honest explanation would be the only possible one. Real-life analog: in my old workplace, a modern-day bank, the furnace blew out at midday with the outdoor temperature at ten below zero. We couldn't close. I don't care how well you plan--dealing with a sudden outage called for more than the lightweight sweater in the coat closet. We worked in our coats despite our boss' objections, and customers understood. What would happen in a minor emergency of that type at a historical site? The shawl in question wasn't incorrect for the period, would reasonably be found in the place and at the time portrayed, but might or might not be out of place on the person who happened to be wearing it. In fact, depending on the condition of the shawl and the family's social status, even something that was once fancy might be on the housemaid's shoulders on a regular basis if it had become unfashionable, stained or tattered. What would a reasonable person of the period have done when confronted with the urgent situation?

What do we do when a given item might be safe in the hands of reenactors, but might be seen as dangerous if it were available to the public? I'm thinking of lead seals and bullets, sharpened knives and firearms. The obvious answer is to avoid carrying them around the public, but that leads to a skewed interpretation. Substitutes may also give a false impression and even they are verboten in some schools and other PC venues. The hardline response is to refuse to do any presentation before people who won't allow fully authentic everything. The school's response all too often is to find somebody who will come in with no weapon and omit any mention of shooting (I saw an Annie Oakley presentation of exactly that nature.) Is there no middle ground?

What do we do when an item is too rare, expensive or fragile to exhibit unless it's behind glass? Let's think of a china plate which has been reproduced faithfully enough that only the marking on the back would identify the copy as modern. Is it acceptable to leave the original in its display case and allow the public to handle the most faithful replica we can afford? Should we call attention to any differences--which would most likely *not* be noticed--or should we only answer any question that comes up? Is it better to refuse to set the table because the original might be damaged, or to use the reproduction with a small sign noting the substitution?

Let's consider the not exactly japanned laundry tubs. They LOOK japanned. A casual observer wouldn't know they aren't. At what point do we put off an impression because WE know something isn't absolutely correct, even though no casual visitor would know, the differences don't affect the result, and the substitute functions as the original would? After all, the medical department doesn't insist on real blue mass pills!

Ongoing research is turning up exceptions to nearly every field of inquiry. The recent discovery of another sunken steamboat on the Great Lakes (the General Anthony Wayne, sunk in 1850 after a boiler explosion) will no doubt add to the "Huh?" list. For the sake of discussion, let's say we have labeled a certain widget as postwar, and it was generally believed to be so because no one mentioned it in period letters, only to find a whole case of them aboard the steamboat. Was it or wasn't it PEC, and what do we say to anyone who asks when the widget came into general use? The only honest answer is "We aren't sure because of recent developments."

Finally, what do we do about anachronisms that can't be fixed, if they're even seen? Shoes for children are one example. Given that the alternative to incorrect but plausible-looking shoes is to exclude children (which might not be correct for the scenario) or have them go barefoot (which might be dangerous, depending on place, time and season), what's the choice?

Hank Trent

06-24-2007, 09:40 AM

What would a reasonable person of the period have done when confronted with the urgent situation?

We've all heard the saying about learning: you remember most of what you do, some of what you see, less of what you hear. It's often brought up as the key strength of living history as a teaching method, with its hands-on interactive visual presentation, compared to just giving a lecture.

But it's hard to promote living history as a teaching method, while falling back on the excuse, if it's not right I'll just explain to people what's wrong if they ask (or even if they don't ask). Most people won't ask, while others will remember what they saw instead of what they heard.

So I see a distinction between doing something inaccurate and thinking it's okay because you've explained it away, and doing something inaccurate and accepting you're giving the wrong impression to many people.

In both cases, obviously, one needs to compensate for the inaccurate thing as best you can, explaining, minimizing, whatever.

But the first attitude encourages complacency. The second encourages an interpreter to look at the overall picture and try to figure out how it could be improved or prevented in the futuer.

What do we do when a given item might be safe in the hands of reenactors, but might be seen as dangerous if it were available to the public?
...
What do we do when an item is too rare, expensive or fragile to exhibit unless it's behind glass?
...
Was it or wasn't it PEC, and what do we say to anyone who asks when the widget came into general use?

Those kinds of questions, I think, are why one needs an overall goal. My favorite one is to give the illusion that I'm someone from the historic time and place, that visitors or other reenactors can interact with. Someone else might have a completely different goal, but using the overall goal, one can answer those questions.

Will I still give the illusion if I... use a safer substitute? guard the dangerous thing carefully? don't have the dangerous thing with me at all? use this not-quite-right reproduction? Omit this item if no reproduction is "good enough"? Choose to go with this best guess till we learn more?

They're all judgment calls, and they depend also on who's the audience for the illusion. But they're what create one's individual impression, like an artist choosing to put a dab of red or green there, when creating a painting. Will the critics think the painting is good or bad? The artist decides, and when it's finished he and his audience judge the result. If he made the wrong choice, he takes his lumps and learns from it. To continue the metaphor, there can be no "right" paintings because it's art, not science, but there can be good paintings, and even though critics will disagree, some concensus will generally emerge about what's better and what's worse.

Finally, what do we do about anachronisms that can't be fixed, if they're even seen? Shoes for children are one example. Given that the alternative to incorrect but plausible-looking shoes is to exclude children (which might not be correct for the scenario) or have them go barefoot (which might be dangerous, depending on place, time and season), what's the choice?

I was following along, until you gave that specific example. I was picturing jetstreams overhead, Japanese beatles, legal restrictions, performing amputations, etc.

Children's shoes can be fixed, if they're your own children. They're just too darn expensive to do so. But it's a problem that throwing money at would, in theory, immediately solve--money that some reenactors might have, not hundreds of thousands of dollars--so I'd put them back up there with "not good enough" reproductions that you figure out how to deal with.

There are social things that could be changed, but not without a major hobby shift. That would include other children's shoes. "We really need 1,000 participants, but in practice, only 300 are going to register if we set the standards at this level." Or, "if we let them have tents, we just know they'll hide all kinds of farby stuff in them." Or, "it's a tradition for everyone to act farby Friday night, so we can't make them be accurate until Saturday morning, and then they'll all want to leave before noon Sunday so we can't continue all day." Again, I'd look at one's goal, as an event organizer in this case. Can you achieve it, given the current state of the hobby? What do you need to do to compensate for in human nature, to come closest to your goal?

There are some insolvable physical things that could be solved, but not by an individual reenactor. Some sites are more accurate than others, and will have big honkin' anachronisms right there, or little things that really hurt, like visually good but nonfunctional items. Again, I'd look at one's goal. Can you achieve it despite the site limitations? How can you work around the limitations?

There are some things that can't be solved legally or practically. Medical and safety issues like performing real amputations or using real bullets, drinking untreated stagnant water, carrying weapons where they're banned, truly unavailable reproductions or things only theoretically available for more than you could ever possibly spend (railroad engines, natural-dyed calico). Again, how can you work around them while best trying to achieve your goal?

One can only decide that after defining what one's goal is. Once the goal is defined, though, the decision-making afterwards gets easier.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

LindaTrent

06-24-2007, 09:49 AM

Let's consider the not exactly japanned laundry tubs. They LOOK japanned. A casual observer wouldn't know they aren't. At what point do we put off an impression because WE know something isn't absolutely correct, even though no casual visitor would know, the differences don't affect the result, and the substitute functions as the original would?

This is the age old question of where do we draw the line, and it's a decent question at that. I know that most of my clothes aren't 100% accurate because they weren't dyed with the proper period dyes, the fabric originated as 45" instead of the narrower fabric of the day, and I can't swear that the wool used in my delaine dress is from a period breed of sheep. I can probably get a dress that's much more accurate for a price. But then most anything is available today at the right price. :eek: Basically reenacting (whether it's at a less history heavy event on up to an immersion event) is all an illusion with varying degrees of "right."

I agree with you about ongoing research always turning up new things, and we do need to remain open minded, and accepting of change. I consider myself a progressive. By that I know that there's always room for improvement in my impression in every respect (what I wear, my material culture, my speech, and my actions...), but I do the best I can with what is currently available to the hobby. If I were to wait until everything was "right," I'd never reenact. 'Right' to me is a synonym for 'authentically accurate,' and that's a goal that I will never achieve, but enjoy striving toward.

Finally, what do we do about anachronisms that can't be fixed, if they're even seen? Shoes for children are one example.

I would say that shoes for children is not something that "can't be fixed." It's something that someone chooses not to fix, and something that a lot of event organizers overlook due to the cost of period shoes and the rapidity with which children grow.

Anachronisms that can be fixed are those things that participants bring with them to an event: modern coolers, sleeping bags, electronics, cameras, clothes, and that sort of thing. Anachronisms can also include what's said and done at events. But then it all depends upon the individual event and how stringent the organizer is at enforcing the rules.

What I would call anachronisms that can't be fixed are most often due to the choice of site, such as power lines, paved roads, airplanes overhead, modern facilities... Most other things can be fixed.

Linda.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

06-24-2007, 12:36 PM

Hallo!

As a soldier who is not in a uniform all the time... ;) :)

"Given that the true perfect impression is impossible, since it would require a 19th-century person in original clothing and surroundings, what do we do when real accuracy in impressions or museum displays is impossible? Is it better to do nothing (which would doom many a public venue to closure) or to do the best we can?"

"One can only decide that after defining what one's goal is. Once the goal is defined, though, the decision-making afterwards gets easier."

Indeed...

Perfection is impossible. Striving for Perfection is not impossible.
We are all on a Sliding Scale of Imperfection created by, or dictated by, many factors such as knowledge and skill- but more likely driven and set by our various Mental Pictures of what we see ourselves doing and where we see ourselves fitting in.
As Herr Hank said, that depends upon defining what one's goal (or in my Paradigm, one's Mental Picture) is.

Many Damen und Herren, Flora and Fauna, are on a Sliding Scale somewhere on the F/M/C/P/H/A Paradigm because of where their personal chosen Mental Picture places them, but also more importantly where that Placement is set by the folks they chose to play with and the events they chose to attend.
How many straws can a camel actually carry before one breaks it back?
Who gets to decide?

For me personally, as the result of years of having entered our "Hobby" as a Beginner and moving somewhere a little on down the Path of learning, growing, evolving, and moving somewhat "closer" to the ever-retreating and impossible goal of Perfection in the Man/Material Culture/Methods Triad... I strive to be the "best one can be" when it comes to the Past Imperfect.

Speaking only of Material Culture.. I strive for the "best" I can reasonably (a subjective and objective concept) have based upon what Current Research and Documentation speaks to as to period raw materials, period patterns and forms, and methods of construction.
But it is still Past Imperfect for a variety of reasons. For example, sometimes it is the size of my pocketbook and Disposable Income (I canot hire a company to build me an 1860's town). Sometimes it is because the period process is no longer being done- such as accepting "hot dipped tinware" instead of period "pickling process" made canteens.
And sometimes it is a matter of Illusion and Suspending Belief when it comes to having a Believeable Image (for myself and the folks I play with). And that uses the concept of Psychological Standards. A Psychological Standard is one that exists only in one's mnd because what one is looking at cannot be perceived as anything different to the unaided human eye short of microscopic, chemical, or metalurgical analysis as not what it is supposed to be. A common example is the aniline blue dyed federal fatigue blouses I wear dyed with modern dyes to simulate Period indigo dyeing without using indigo.
I know how to dye with indigo, and also know maker/vendor offering indigo dyed blouses- so I compromise with an "imperfect" Psychological Standard. On the other hand, ny Confederate kit is logwood or sumac dyed...

IMHO, where we "are" on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection needs to, should, might, may be, do three things:

1. Meet or approach how we define our "goals"

2. Meet how and where our Mental Pictures work for us in giving us a positive "return" for the investment of time, energy, and money we put out.

3. Meet how and where our Mental Pictures work for those we play with and for in creating and maintaining Believeable Images and Suspending Disbelief.

And last... as Dr. Phil's Life Law #3 shares: People do what works. (Identify the pay-offs that drive your behavior and that of others.) ;) :)

Meaning, birds of a feather flock together. Trying to mix too many folks separated by too many miles on their own rightfully chosen Paths on the Journey that may or may not eventually lead toward a Past Imperfect Horizon that always retreats before us the closer we seem to get.... ;)

Others' mileage, and heresies, will vary...

Curt
Soldier and Civilian

Becky Morgan

06-24-2007, 05:47 PM

Hallo!A common example is the aniline blue dyed federal fatigue blouses I wear dyed with modern dyes to simulate Period indigo dyeing without using indigo.
I know how to dye with indigo, and also know maker/vendor offering indigo dyed blouses- so I compromise with an "imperfect" Psychological Standard. On the other hand, ny Confederate kit is logwood or sumac dyed...
Curt
Soldier and Civilian

This is one point that brings up the conflict quite well. The original soldiers had a whole lot more to worry about than whether their coats might fade to Barney purple. With constant wear and constant movement, their clothing wore out in a relatively short time and was expected to be replaced (note I didn't say "was" but "was expected to be".) While true indigo dyeing shouldn't be a lost art, most reenactors don't need to replace or re-dye their coats when the alternative is an accurate but lasting color whose origin would never be known if we didn't tell. I suppose the purest form of authenticity demands constant replacement of equipment, but in this case the difference is not detectable.

Can we agree on substitution if--
the original is unavailable with less than a desperate effort and the disposable income of Bill Gates,
the substitute cannot be identified as a substitute without a label of some kind, and
the alternative is to teach nothing about that phase of history?

Becky Morgan

06-24-2007, 06:35 PM

...Basically reenacting (whether it's at a less history heavy event on up to an immersion event) is all an illusion with varying degrees of "right."
...
If I were to wait until everything was "right," I'd never reenact. ..
Linda.

The perfect venue doesn't exist, the perfect clothing doesn't exist, and (sigh) none of us are perfect, whether we reenact or research. However, there's virtue in the effort itself, in the mindset that insists we can always do better and can always learn more.

It comes down to the equivalent of the EPA's BAT/BPT: Best Available Technology vs. Best Practical Technology. At what point does the benefit from a more exacting process outweigh the inconvenience, expense and perhaps financial impossibility?

The question comes up constantly when steam locomotives are involved. There aren't a lot of surviving operable engines, especially very old ones. If they operate, the FRA demands certain modifications (two water glasses, NO link and pin couplers, safety glasses and ear protection for the engine crew...) There is a school of thought that says all locomotives should be static displays because the modifications would be there even if they aren't visible. The other school of thought is that no static display explains steam like the live hiss of breath and shadow of warmth when a locomotive passes by. For about four million dollars, give or take, we could have a perfect replica built, but it would still have to have the modern safety gear in order to operate. The honest choice most museums make is to point out the required changes and show pictures of how things used to be. It generally leads to many questions about industrial safety, which is all good.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

06-24-2007, 06:37 PM

Hallo!

"Can we agree on substitution if-- the original is unavailable with less than a desperate effort and the disposable income of Bill Gates, the substitute cannot be identified as a substitute without a label of some kind, and the alternative is to teach nothing about that phase of history?

Yes, but the so-called H/A segment does it all the time, or even less, on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection.

Federal greatcoats, trousers, fatigue blouses, dress coats, etc., are aniline dyed not indigo (or the rarer logwood) dyed. (Why is it that we pride ourselves on logwood or sumac dyed jean for CS, but accept non-indigo for US?) ;) :)
Or more invisibly, we accept the substitution of Italian Hardwood for Pennsylvania grown American Black Walnut in Springfield stocks, or modern hard barrel steel for the mild steel or iron of 19th century gun barrels.
Etc., etc., etc.

IMHO, the thornier one is the "teach nothing..." part.

"We" moderns know more about some aspects of 19th century Material Culture than the 19th century folks themselves. I supsect few if any Confederate soldiers could explain the differences between a Richmond Depot "Type II" jacket and Columbus Depot jacket.
Obviously, they did not know they were wearing Type I or Type II forage caps (or any "Type" item) as the typology would not be invented.
They did not worry about "authenticity" because they were "authentic."

What "we" often do is interpet History in the form of first taking ownership of History creating "authentic-looking" moments that are judged "authentic" because they closely resemble what documents History- photographs and artifacts. Meaning, "we" create an "illusion," and the illusion first is that "we" and the period photographs are inter-changeable
Then, we add elements of the person and the environment, and activities too flesh out the illusion and make it work first for ourselves, then for our comrades, and maybe for a
"spectating Pubic" (if our goal is historical and/or site intrepretation and not just Public Entertainment.)

Here is a picture of my wife. Artifact-wise she is, actually "perfect." Head-to-toe, inside and out, she is kitted out in original early 1860's women's items. Lookng at a picture, persona-wise, impression-wise, history-wise, or site-interpretative--wise she is a two dimensional static mannequin that teaches nothing but what one 1860's women's day dresswear looked like.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y104/Michael1787/Karen2-1.jpg

If I would ague any point, is that "what works for people" is what works for people. Folks may be on the Sliding Scale of Imperfection at a 10% or at a 90%, but yet what they "do," works for them.
Folks happy at 10% teach themselves and the Spectating Public "something" everyday.
And sometimes it is a vague as evoking a passing thought of that time called the "Civil War." Sometimes it is remembering an ancestor or looking him or her up on the WWW. Sometimes, it is a spectator's feeling they got good entertianment for the price of their entry ticket, or their 8 year old son's face lit up to see "the soldiers." Sometimes it is a reenactor's joy at having gotten off a hundred rounds, and "killed Yanks or Rebs."

At any rate, I employ Psychologcial Standards myself, while looking for the indigo dyed Federal fatique blouse. But rather than dyeing it myself, I use aniline dyed ones as my circle of friends and fellow hobbyists accept it as H/A. :)
But when talking about blouses, I still teach about indigo dye ranges.
As we are all on the Sliding Scale somewhere.

As one can see, I am not longer "big" on the "teaching" and "educating" the Pubic unless I am doing particular site or historical interpretation.
What I do, instead, is interpret History and history for myself and to myself first- and then to and for my pards and associates. And together we move, hopefully forward instead of back, as the illusion grows and the percentages hopefully increase.

Curt
Heretic Mess

LindaTrent

06-24-2007, 07:50 PM

At what point does the benefit from a more exacting process outweigh the inconvenience, expense and perhaps financial impossibility?

It depends upon what the goal is. One day our farrier came out to trim my mare's feet. As we were walking out to our barn, (which is located on the Bradford Place, an 1863 recreated rural home), he stopped, walked up to the board fence and studied it. He then turned to me and said, "Lin, those are cut nails!" We continued to walk out to the barn and as we got close enough for him to see the 6' hinges on the big doors he said, "Lin, those are real wrought iron hinges!"

Heck, this wasn't a tour, we were in 21st century clothes and he had no reason to suspect that anything would be different than any other farm he stopped at. Board fencing is still used on horse farms, and English framed barns were typical in this area of Ohio. But still he noticed. In this case, going the extra mile and having period correct nails, and true wrought iron hinges -- we showed him that we were serious about what we were doing.

In the museum world you never know who's going to be coming through next, what their specialty is, or what's going to turn them on. Clothing, blacksmithing, cooking, child-rearing, quilting, laundry, candle dipping, soap making, farming... The more accurate the items and the information the more a person with a specialty is able to see how much research and care has been given to his or her area of special interest and will be more likely to trust the rest of the research. But specialty or not, it is a museums duty to educate the public with the most informed living historians, and with the best material culture that the participants and/or museum can afford.

Artifact-wise she is, actually "perfect." Head-to-toe, inside and out, she is kitted out in original early 1860's women's items.

Curt, I almost hate to ask, but by any chance is that a typo for 1880?

Linda.

ElizabethClark

06-24-2007, 08:33 PM

I keep going back to my own basic questions:

1: What did the original people do, think, use, say, etc?

2: Can I replicate it exactly?

3: If I can't, is there another historic option that I can replicate?

4: If there isn't, what's the least obtrusive substitution possible?

5: What's my solution?

I look at how many "systems" (for lack of a better word) are in use, mid-century. Remove key articles of clothing from a woman's wardrobe (for instance, a supportive undergarment), and the rest of the system doesn't function as well. That one element, however, has several valid mid-century options to choose from, and one of them is going to work for my own budget, situation, time-frame, physical limitations, etc.

In my area, we have two "best, brightest" sites within 6 hours of driving each way; one is a set of gold mining towns in Montana, and another is a living history village in Salt Lake City. Neither is perfect. Both have compromises from a 100% accurate mid-century world. Some of the compromises can be easily fixed, with minimal budget and effort (namely, clothing. Hey, I teach dressmaking. I notice that stuff first. Second, interpreting historic fact, rather than Hollywood and Little House--but that can be easily improved, too, in the grand scheme of things.)

Other aspects are nigh unto impossible to change. The gold towns have