How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[Charles Heath]

Dennis,

You are absolutely right. Some of PGTB's clothing on display at CMH had buttonholes so finely crafted that the stitching was invisible, or nearly so. It's probably good to remember his clothing wasn't likely depot made, and intended for issue to enlisted folk. If memory serves me, the bulk of that clothing was on the left, as one entered from the street. One of the things that struck me about some of the clothing at CMH, and sometimes seen in other collections, was the brightness of some of the blue garments. "Electric blue" comes to mind.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the lemon yellow hat (without edge binding or a crown ribbon) in the Museum of the Western CW Soldier in Bardstown. That's a neat little place, and the hardbound catalogue is a good supplement for EOG volumes.

[Drygoods]

Good Afternoon Sirs,

I'm not sure if the light bulb next to my name indicates that I need to get a clue, or I HAD a clue...ok, so I might be clueless, nonetheless.....

Here's a thought. Why not lower your standards. Look, if you can't afford to buy new quality clothing, than can you accept buying used quality goods? Not everyone bought their clothes from a custom tailor, rag and bone men and used clothing shops sold plenty of items to people of middle or lower classes. Consequently, it might take a bit of effort, but advertise for what is wanted and then see what comes of it.

Believe me, it takes a bit more effort to pull off a decent white trash impression rather than a college graduate. You have to know your material culture well enough to understand what levels of low life are within your station and what kind of education is beyond your realm, however, it is an easier impression to do with clothing because everything you purchase is already worn or close to your size. Consider it an option, I don't see enough of this characterization at events, well not here anyway.

You could say that I'm just sick and tired of seeing slick dudes, women with 50 pounds of cheezy lace glued around them, and that over-done former rich refuge impression, so what is wrong with a low paid clerk or assistant?

[BrettKIllinois]

Frank,
If you don't mind my imposing but 24 years in, what rank do you hold?
As for the swinging of arms and cuping of hands, it is a very hard habit for me to break. Any tips for breaking this habit?

[Charles Heath]

Judith,

We really have to hire a locksmith, so you can get out of that house. You are missing some great impressions of just this very thing at events.

[BrianHicks]

Frank,
If you don't mind my imposing but 24 years in, what rank do you hold?


He's a Full Bird at Ft. Sill. Looks as though he's long time Cannon Cocker :D.

Semper Fidelis Sir.

Brian Hicks
MSgt USMC Retired
1982-2003

[BrettKIllinois]

I love the fact that he's willing to portray a private on his free time. It says a lot about a man's character. Kudos.

If ever given the opportunity I'd like to fall in under your battalion and learn a thing or two from you Mr Hicks.

Cheers.

[BrianHicks]

We had another Full Bird (Airforce), Kieth Barsch, who enjoyed falling into the ranks. He retired about 18 mos. ago, and is in Law School now. Hopefully we'll see him again.

We also have Bro. Dale Beasely in the ranks. He is a Lt Col (Medical Corps) in the Active Reserves.

And you are correct... it is refreshing to have men whom are actually Commissioned Officers, falling into the ranks with the rest of us. It does speak well of their character.

I don't know that there is very much I could impart to you, but I'd be very honored to have you in the ranks with us.

For the remainder of this year, we have Chicamuaga and Outpost III on the schedule.

The Website for the WIG is: www.westernindependentgrays.org keep a check every now and then over there, as well as the event folders here. I'm sure we'll share an event eventually.

[Spinster]

Chawls,

I'm in--where do I send a portion of the locksmith fee? Time for Judith to roadtrip. Heck, I got gals who fly from Colorado to Alabama for events that can only be described as 'better than some'.:D

Po white down here, with or without teeth, snuff can optional, but preferred,

[Mike Ventura]

Don't forget recently retired USMC Col. Dan McLean is around here somewhere.

[Drygoods]

Mr. Heath and Mrs. Lawson,

Oh, geez, I had no idea that I sounded like a charity case, so be it. Wanna hear another whiner? I got three in college, live in a fine old place that is falling apart and needs ready money faster than the mint can print it, and am surrounded by white trash neighbors who smoke anything, even my rose clippings if I don't pick them up fast enough when doing yard work. The people in my town think it's great entertainment to have practice lesson fires on old Victorian houses, truly, these things draw crowds. I just get wild when I see folks do this sorta thing. I mean I went out to see what was burning one day and found a Dr. who bought an old place, and she thought it best to take 8 old trunks down from the attic, filled with clothes, and poor lamp oil on them and burn them, her best idea for getting rid of 'rubbish.' Now you know why I'm nuts all the time. Trapped in suburbia with folks who don't own books.

I suppose that I'm just as weird as my neighbors. I mean, I don't use central heating, instead use fireplaces to heat my brick home, and have removed old wiring for electricity and replaced it with gas lamps. You folks sure I should be let out once and a while?:sarcastic As they say, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.:confused_

Zingo! talk about nasty thread drift there. Still, my point to the previous post was that people get way too wrapped up thinking that they need to look perfect. I don't see the point to all that, as there is nothing wrong with looking like an honest working man, or even a humble housewife, just the common citizen.

[BrianHicks]

That's right!

Four Colonels... if they were all in the same ranks at the same event... what..... a flock of Colonels? Or Would it be more like a having a Murder of Crows in the line. :eek:

[Charles Heath]

I'm in--where do I send a portion of the locksmith fee? Time for Judith to roadtrip.

Terre,

If we'd only been collecting said travel fund for the past 9....nope 10 years...Judith could have made it to BGR or the Kentucky Trial or a dozen other efforts with civilians....well, you get the point. Last summer, before the big AC Forum crash due to the database back up crisis, a lengthy thread played out several dozen scenarios, vignettes, and features people would like to see at events. While all that dreamsheeting was happening, I couldn't help but wonder why these same "living historians" hadn't bothere to attend events in the past 5 years were such took place. About 95% of the wish list had been covered, too.

As good as this thread is, perhaps this is the time to magically transport it to The Sinks, before we start asking if there is a window sash that can be removed from the inside, so an escape can be made.

Scotty, beam me up.

[LindaTrent]

Hi Judith,

You know, we all wish that we had local people who lived within our area that we could work with, but the truth of the matter is, very few of us do, and those who do are lucky. We all have to go through the frustration of either getting to better events or putting them on ourselves. Like you, I don't have a lot of areas around here to do that, which is why twice we've had to travel four hours to the site of the event I'm putting on.

Is the site perfect? Absolutely not. I think it's a city (or state) park, the site of a CW era fort built to defend the city of Frankfort, KY. I've mentioned several times all the modern intrusions with the site, but yet the interior (except for one room), is basically flawless. Would I like a better site? Yes! but at some point you have to decide is it better to hold the event in a site like this? Or to not hold the event at all? I made my decision and I will rise or fall with it.

I've been talking to Silvana Siddali about Marmaduke's Raid 1863 event coming up next September (08), it sounds like a good one, and if you're interested I'll be glad to have you in our family for the event providing you get approval. I'm not organizer or coordinator on this one, so I can't give you permission to come, but if you're serious about coming I will champion your cause.

There've been rumors of an event with civilians going to be held the first weekend of October in Virginia, but I've heard little about it. If it happens, and you can fly in I'll be more than happy to mentor you for that, too. Both events are pretty much "roughing it." And both will probaby have the soldiers come a knockin' at the door (metaphorically speaking).

You talk as though you still attend events even though you're not happy with them. Why not get a group together on the Western Campaigner's forum and meet at the event and do something different? I sent you some names of people who live in California who might be interested in that sort of thing. And you've got your own group of civilians that you do first person with, why not organize some sort of carpe' eventum!

Talk to some of the more hardcore guys out there and see if the next time they put on an event if you can raise some authentic civilians to play along. I've not had problems with that. Many of our most memorable moments were at events where the military sought us out (actually came to either Hank or me) because we're somewhat fun to play with.:wink_smil

I got three in college, live in a fine old place that is falling apart and needs ready money faster than the mint can print it...

Yet, on another forum you said that you recently went to an antiquing and purchased some more stuff, and how you're always using your "bottle money" for purchasing more "pots, beds" etc. If that's spending money, and you're so disappointed with the events that you have out there, why not save that money and attend better events, rather than put it into more stuff?

My main point is, if you're happy with what you have then you don't have a problem. If you're looking for something better than you're going to have to either accept that it isn't going to happen, or shake things up a bit and make them happen. It's all about attitude, dedication and devotion.

Oh, and by the way, unless documentation proves otherwise -- I plan to be middle class fallen on hard times at both events. So you'll see me in my powhite trash clothes. :)

Linda.

[Drygoods]

Mrs. Trent, and others,

What a great bunch of folks you all are. To put it best, I'm no slacker, I do get out beyond my keyboard. That gold rush event that the Mr. mentioned on the other forum, well that was something that he started some 28 years ago, and we did that every year gathering other hard core types having more folks from out of state with only 12 locals in attendance. Pity of the thing is that someone new came in, deciding they had a better idea, and upset the whole program by being less authentic and loose with the standards. Dumbing down history isn't my style, I still want to support the place, but I find that I don't belong there if I can't stay in character for the whole ten days. Bummer.

And you could wager your last dollar I'd be at the Fort Tejon event this month if it wasn't for the other event the same weekend at Ardenwood. Ardenwood isn't hardcore, but the new folks that I've given fabric, patterns, and the whole shebang just for joining, well, they have a program going on, so naturally, I want to support their efforts. Unlike a lot of groups, when new people join our club, I give them the period cloth, patterns, classes, and everything free of charge just so that I don't have to hear those horrid stories of how they got fleeced at Dope Deluxe Swindler Sutlery. I know this isn't the practice everywhere, but it's my way of helping and making sure that everything that new person has is correct, so they can really get working on interpretation.

The only way that I can spin this bit of thread drift back into the topic is to tell folks, humble yourself and ask for help to build an outfit, or don't push for everything all at once. I'm not saying make it a 5 year plan like buying a new car, but if you want to look right and have a slim budget, then you have to make the sacrifice to give up a meal or two out during the month, or learn to do without those mochas. Believe me, yesterday I told my daughter that I wish I could have a box of chocolates, hadn't had any in such a long time, but instead I saved for that pie dish that I will get to use next Christmas and then again next June at another event.....it's just the way that I find my priorities, and sometimes you never get that second chance to buy that wonderful piece of material culture/dishware.

And yes, Mr. Heath, I do travel. I'm not the shut-in that people think, but it's true that the majority of folks I know and play with are the western states crowd and do more 1848-1850s interpretation, don't get me wrong, I love CW, but find more options for those earlier bits. But don't worry, you'll see me sooner than you think.:wink_smil

[Spinster]

With two events in 2007 with room for significant numbers of civilians (Kentucky Trial and Banks Grand Retreat), there was really no excuse for civilians not getting out somewhere.

2008 holds similar promise for significant civilian events---and in mid-country to boot, with both Marmaduke's Raid and Athens being centrally located.

Its also the 'on' year for Shaker Village---an excellent venue for those who are a bit shy about the whole thing to stick a toe in the water--where they will find it as deep or as shallow as their own preparation. (Hint--the Louisville, Ky airport is about an hour away, and Southwest Airlines provides service from several California venues at a reasonable price. Rooms and meals available at the Village cut down on the need to haul significant plunder).

Flying to events is wayyyyyyy underrepresented:D

[Dale Beasley]

That's right!

Four Colonels... if they were all in the same ranks at the same event... what..... a flock of Colonels? Or Would it be more like a having a Murder of Crows in the line. :eek:

Brother Brian,

Since you are "counting crows"....Don't think it as so much to do with "Character" but..."the ranks" is the only place they will let us in.:wink_smil

Really, I am honored they will even have us!!

[Chad Teasley]

Speaking of O-5's...We also have that retired USN Commander Doug Cooper fella, who when he got done flying Navy aircraft for a living, went to work full time saving hallowed Civil War battlefields.

Oh, shucks, wait a minute. :)
I most always forget; Doug only works on preservation in his SPARE time, after taking care of his family and post-Navy career. That's what he modestly claims, anyway. (It's kind of hard to believe battlefield preservation is not his full time job, as much work as he does to save those fields for future generations.)

[DougCooper]

Thanks Chad. Stay safe out there.

I will never forget standing in ranks with a Navy O-6 whose name escapes me, but I think we was in the 28th Mass. We were both Yankee privates that day. I was a Navy Squadron Commander in Norfolk and he was the skipper of a Trident Nuclear Submarine, the most powerful warship in the history of earth. I took him aside after the event and we talked. Both of us were looking for a bit of followership to go with our lot in real life. :D

[BrianHicks]

I know we have several Retired folks amongst us... but what is far more amazing, is when you have Senior Officers whom are still on Active Duty, that take the time, and effort to humble themselves back into the ranks portraying Privates.

[BrettKIllinois]

So many Colonels... they could start their own mess.
Ok, all the kidding aside, I'm impressed.

[Drygoods]

Mrs. Lawson,

Traveling without plunder? Oh, now why spoil the beauty of the thing:( It's great to travel with a few comforts from home, or so I've always thought, but still even nicer to save a bit of spare time to shop 'round if given a chance. Myself, I seldom travel light, but I find it valuable to send things on ahead of time by shipping them to the nearest FedEX or UPS station so that all I have to do is collect my rental car at the airport and pick up my boxed clothes &c.

I think that sometimes people are afraid to travel long distances to events. They are afraid of weather, not finding good food, or any comforts or accommodation that they are familiar with. Yes, that tired old argument, both of them, but folks you don't know what you're missing unless you get out there and see the world. I know that last year I took off on a workshop to a big city, and I was a bit worried because I'm not used to this sort of thing -- big cities. In truth, I suffered a bit from big city envy, here was a place that had every convenience, stores aplenty open 24 hours, and if you couldn't find exactly what you wanted, then you had a hundred other places to look. The downside was that you heard traffic all night and day long, whereas at home, sometimes I have to wait 3 or 4 hours for a car to drive the main street.

Funny thing this thread, it sure struck a chord with me, as the last thought of the night, and first of this morning, was how right Mrs. Trent was; I should stop buying so many antique crocks and wax jacks and learn to turn my nose up at these delicious finds and save for a plane ticket. <sigh>:wink_smil

[weed]

Nic, if you don't know John Wedeward - you might want to give him a call. This is his perspective as well and pretty much the M.O. behind the way he produces his blouses.

You're right though - this isn't an excuse for buying farbonzo gear. Authenticity in patterns, construction techniques and materials still count... even if the garment appears hastily constructed, for the reasons you've mentioned.

I thank Paul for the kind words. If you go to my web site http://www2.inxpress.net/jwedeward and then to the section on "view details of Original Uniforms" you will see that is being talked about.

John W

[LindaTrent]

Funny thing this thread, it sure struck a chord with me, as the last thought of the night, and first of this morning, was how right Mrs. Trent was; I should stop buying so many antique crocks and wax jacks and learn to turn my nose up at these delicious finds and save for a plane ticket. <sigh>:wink_smil

I have a spot at the Trial event next weekend in Frankfort, KY. We'll have lots of plates to wash, chamber pots and spittoons to be dumped, rope beds to be made... You won't have to bring a thing since the inn's entirely furnished with the best of the best of material culture.

The majority of the women will be the equivilent of "a low paid clerk or assistant?" The only exception would be one witness and one juror who might dress better simply because they're in an official capacity with the trial.

Let me know by midnight (eastern time) tonight (Thur. Aug. 2) and I'll get you up to speed on characters and such. Full first person immersion (action and interaction). I'm sure someone can pick you up at the Louisville Airport. If not, I'll drive there myself and pick you up. :D

Linda.

[Charles Heath]

Judith,

You'll be happy to learn most of the truly great events do not take place in big cities. Over on another forum, some benevolent sorts have established "The Judith Fund" to help fund travel to your very first event.

This isn't just about you, because Esperance Bob's first event is only 2 hours away. I'm looking forward to meeting him on the evening of August 10th.

[Drygoods]

My Dears, Mrs. Trent, and Mr. Heath,

Oh! if wishes were horses! Yes, I'd love to attend your event, but sadly, I'm committed to a workshop these two next weekends. My form of charity work in the world is taking antique clothes about, drafting patterns from them, and forcing new sewing enthusiasts to reproduce said items so that they may wear them at future events, thus making themselves and the hobby as a whole look much better. It sounds like a generous touchy-feeling sort of thing but secretly is my excuse for buying more antique clothing, you have to justify these things to the rest of the family when they say "you need another one of those?"

The Judith Fund eh? Good thing you've taken on this project Mr. Heath, as I'd just make a dog's dinner of it all and more than likely buy myself another piece of furnishing to shove into my already over-cluttered home. You think I'm kidding, I'm not, old desks are my downfall while ogee clocks haunt my husband.:sarcastic However, I'm certain sure that several on this forum are just reading this wishing that me, that nagging old crone would dry up and stop gassing on and on about how tough it is to afford trips as far as the end of the block. The JF will take years to acquire, as no doubt who would contribute to such a thing when everyone wishes "she'd just cork-it for ten minutes and stop using up all the oxygen in the room! Why don't she give somebody else a chance to push a word in once and a while?" :confused_However, no matter what, one thing is crystal clear from this thread; no matter how much it costs to outfit a person, the kindness and generosity of those is this hobby is amazing. I don't think that you can find better people this whole world over than people who care, and love history.

[Pennvolunteer]

Brett,
Brian has me pegged. I am the Director of Training at the Artillery School, Ft. Sill. Appreciate the comments in the thread, but would like to echo that I'm just glad they let me fall in with them. It is actually nice just to be in the ranks and a common soldier for a hobby.
Always love to talk. Another hard one for me to not slip up on is about face, it is very easy to just do it the modern way! As to how to get over those instinct things that have been "drilled" in to you, all I can tell you is that I have to actually think, and practice, practice, practice. The good news is, I don't fall in to many formations in my real job anymore, so I have less opportunity to get confused when I've been concentrating on the hobby!

[BrettKIllinois]

Frank,
Thanks for the contribution and for your work educating the King of Battle.

[Dale Beasley]

Hey Frank,

Fire for effect...

[Pennvolunteer]

Dale,
Shot, over... but it looks like my mission time stinks, I need to monitor the net closer.

[MillerTime]

I was just curious. When did campaigne/authentic reenacting start to take effect. What I mean is when did this start? I know reenacting back in the 60's and 70's wasn't all correct. So who where the first real campaigners. I know many strived for authenticity but who started the first hardcore company? Just thought It might be a fun discussion.

[Garrett Silliman]

Ah Avery,

Excellent question - and one whose answers I think you'll find right here
http://wesclark.com/jw/kimmel.html

Happy Reading.

[Pennvolunteer]

This is great information. I do our Museum gun crew here at Fort Sill with a fellow who began re-enacting as a young man as a Centennial Re-enactor. I have heard some "hair raising" stories about how bad many of those impressions were. We joked about how Audie Murphy in "Red Badge of Courage" needed technical advisors with 1870-1880 headgear with crossed rifles brass, Spanish-American War canteens and haversacks, and best of all, Trap-doors where they pulled the cleaning rod out to ram rounds. I have to say the worst thing I've seen from the 60's is the film at the Visitor Center at Shiloh. There is nothing authentic in it, and there are even guys with M1's in there. Needless to say, things have improved tremendously.

[Garrett Silliman]

True; however, I had the opportunity to speak at length with Mr. Kimmel last year about his experiences - very interesting stuff. Ross and comrades were members of an organization that really tried to "do it right". There are a couple of films put out by the VA centenial commission that are better, by today's standards, than some of the shlock that made its way into video during the 125th or 130th.

[billwatson]

Avery,

I think I know what you mean, and I think Garrett has given you the answer, but you might be better off describing what it is you're asking about in plain language rather than using words like "campaign," which come with their own baggage. The biggest problems: labels like "campaigner" and "authentic" and "hardcore" tend to be self-applied and/or appropriated for or against those with a particular philosophical agenda.

I think you want to know "when did people try to reconstruct as much of the soldier's experience as possible, as accurately as they could, in order to try to experience it themselves?" That would easily include Ross Kimmel and the fellows like him from that time, who tried to do what they could with the information and material available to them. We have so much more available to us now, in so many ways. And yet the more we have and the more we know, the more we see stretching ahead of us yet to master. And now the Museum of the Confederacy has received tens of thousands of documents relating to government purchases of arms and equipment, so much it will take years just to sort it and catalog it; who knows what we'll learn? So we're all in the same boat as Ross Kimmel; we are trying to do what we can with the information available, but we know we're probably going to find out, in the next few years, that some of what we're doing now in good faith is wrong. And we'll learn other things that will probably surprise us.

[CJDaley]

Thanks for posting that article Mr. Silliman. It would be in all our interests to re-read that article every few years. Ross is a great guy and like you, just talking to Ross is really great.

To my knowledge John Griffiths of the 1st PA Reserves has probably been in the hobby the longest. He also ran with Ross' crew back in the 60s-70s, but he was at the Centennial of John Brown's Raid and he slept on the ground there without a blanket or ground cloth. That was 48 years ago in 1959. I just saw John the other day and he still carries a musket and still sleeping on the ground.

[rogue]

Not to hijack, but go under SINKS and look at the photos I posted under WHO ARE THESE FELLOWS.
I believe they are 1970's Mudsills, and a close examination of the photos do at least show the beginnings of a thrust towards Campaigne.
Steve Sullivan
ex-33rd WI, but never a Mudsill, drat!

[Richmond Depot]

When I started back in '79 my group the Richmond Grays was primarily made up by guys who started out with the old 1st Md. Among the ranks were Dave Jurgella, John Griffiths,Mike Vice, Lynn Bull and several others. Being involved in what we were doing back then, at age 12, for me was a huge rush....even though things have changed for the better regarding uniforms,equipment and events, I have never been able to equal that rush. I guess, it was the people that I was exposed to who were so freely willing to help me learn.

If I can find them, I will try and dig out some old pics and post them.

[Charles Heath]

Scott,

While looking for the photos, see if you can dig up and post a roster of Co. G, 12th Virginia, from about that time. It reads like a Who's Who of the hobby, and a good number of those names are easy to recognize even today.

[Joe Walker]

The 12th Va, 2nd Maryland, and the 20th Tenn on the CS side- Marching and camping with guys like Less Jensen, Dave Jurg., Charles Childs, Dennis Ream, Anthony Hoghes, Gordon Jones, Bob Parkerand many more that took the time to listen to me asking so many questions was a real treat back in the 125th days. The "jean machine" was realing starting to get going in 86. Men in the Confederate Guard, Cleburnes, and the Mudsills in the West were before that, breaking the mould and leading the way. That "in the park" event at Gburg in 88 seams to the genesis of a lot of it.

Joe Walker

old 20th Tenn member

[Richmond Depot]

I can pull that right off of the top my head....or my hair

Dick Cheatham
Lynn Bull
Willie Balderson
Tom Hay
Mark Greenough
Scott Hanes
Lindsay Gray
Mike Vice
Dave Jurgella
Jim Loba
Phil Cavenaugh
Bob Toncray
Randy Wiley
Ed Sanders
Charlie Richardson
Wes Stone
Peter Kingsley
Robin Reed

Co. G 12th Va. Richmond Grays CA:1979-1986. The group came together from volunteers and paid staff who met at Ft. Harrison while portraying Co. D, 98th New York.

I started in the mainstream with the old Mahone's Brigade out of Tidewater in about '79 or so and by '80-'81 had found these guys whoe were local to me. Our Federal alter ego was Co. F 20th Maine.

Best,

[roundshot]

Speaking of which, here's an old pic from the 80s of Lynn Bull & Dick Cheatham in the 98th NY camp at Ft. harrison/Burnham.Lynn sews while Dick whittles.

[SCTiger]

In other words, the "campaigner" style of ACW reenacting is nothing new at all and in many cases it was the original & correct way to do it. Although many Brand X re-enactors would like for you to think that they came first, it might seem logical since they have the numbers. So it's not a recent phenomenon created in reaction to mainstream reenactments.

[Richmond Depot]

Bob,

Now that is a vintage picture !!!! Thanks for posting that one. Do you have any more from Ft. Harrison that you could scan and email to me ?

I feel so old now. That pic was taken about '78 or '79 ?

Charles,

Quite a few recognizable names if you know who your looking at. I still see a few of the guys from time to time.

I remember Dave Jurgella continually talking about something called Jean Cloth and a guy named Charlie Childs all the time. I think he was probably Charlies best salesman.

Greg,
Back in the day, there were very few campaign oriented groups in existence. We took our status pretty seriously back then and considered ourselves to be elite.( what group doesn't consider themselves elite) At the time, we thought that we were the first to come up with some of the events and scenario's that we did. In retrospect, I realize that alot of what we were doing had been done by the 2nd Maryland and passed to us from former members of the 2nd Maryland who were in our ranks.

In looking back over the years, our unit was special. By today's standards, our impressions wouldn't hold a candle to todays groups like the Columbia Rifles or the Southern Guard or even the hundreds of campaign oriented messes across the country. But I like to think that we managed to do some pretty neat things.

Ooops, I did omit John Griffiths from my initial roster this morning. Trivia Question How many on the forum know who his ( John Griffiths) Gr-Grandfather was ?

[CJDaley]

Trivia Question How many on the forum know who his ( John Griffiths) Gr-Grandfather was ?

At least two of us...:wink_smil

[Dignann]

At least two of us...:wink_smil
Make that three.:wink_smil

Eric

[Charles Heath]

At least five.

[Vuhginyuh]

...Dick Cheatham
Lynn Bull
Willie Balderson
Tom Hay
Mark Greenough
Scott Hanes
Lindsay Gray
Mike Vice
Dave Jurgella
Jim Loba
Phil Cavenaugh
Bob Toncray
Randy Wiley
Ed Sanders
Charlie Richardson
Wes Stone
Peter Kingsley
Robin Reed...


I have pictures of at least half of these guys rolling an original torpedo around at Ft. Fisher. The finest raft of sailors I have ever seen...but Robin is wearing a green RD2. And Mark Greenough looks like the Geico Caveman.

I remember Mike Vice as being one of the funniest "grown-ups" I ever met.

Two or three days before the Bentonville 125th I got stuck overnight in the Harper house with most of this bunch. (You can add Ray Bass and some older kid named Ben to that list.) I vividly recall the horrible storm that chased everyone in that night and the subsequent BS session in the upstairs hall. Fortunately I had a cold so my sense of smell was diminished. I was six…but the therapy lasted for years.

[Richmond Depot]

Garrison,

I would be indebted to you if you could email some of thoes pics to me.

Best,

[1stMaine]

Geez Scott,

If I remember correctly, there was a LH program with the old MaHone's Brigade crew where you were introduced to some brew from a mason jar..... It was at an earthen fortification on the Chesapeake Bay. I still have some images somewhere of that that I ought to scan and post.

I don't remember if it was Chuck James or Allen Glanville that brought that stuff along, but I remember most of that evening.

FWIW, the first "modern" type of organisation for the larger events took place at the 118th Gettysburg. The Federals had organised a full 10-company battalion that would later become the basis for the "National Regiment". The CS side also put together a battalion and the organisors there were George Heffner, Chuck Hillsman, Chuck James and a couple others whose names at the moment escape me.

Great times.... I remember getting all sorts of flack from other CS reenactors about why we were all sleeping in dog tents, or flys, or just under the stars. How we looked like a bunch of bums, some thrift-shop hobo rejects, as one wag called us. Some things never change, eh? :rolleyes:

Respects,

[41strifleman]

I started out in the old Mahone's. I remember that stuff they served out. The idea was that at the camp of instruction everyone was paid in scrip. You received two confederate singles and they could be used to purchase two shots of the blue lightning as it was called. My squad was on picket duty when the pay call was done so we did not receive the scrip. However since it was dark and the collectors had sampled the beverage all we did was change hats a lot and use different units names. I think we blew it when we used 2nd Carolina Horse Marines for the 3rd time.

[ScottCross]

Let's not forget Sherman's Bummers who started in the late 1960s. Paul McKee and I met them about 1971. Not only did they make their own uniforms, but they also used the correct materials and patterned them after original pieces. Many of them were carrying original equipment and forage caps. I remember their camp was only a fire in the woods with the men sleeping on the ground without tents. I got out of the hobby shortly after, but McKee joined them. I remember Larry Strayer and Dave Jurgella (to name only a couple), but the roster of that organization literally reads like a "Who's Who" of Civil War Living History. Any old Bummers out there lurking?

[PanzerJager]

I’m glad some one mentioned Sherman’s Bummers on this thread. I know we have at least one old Bummer lurking on the forum, my good friend Spence Waldron, maybe he will chime in more on the Bummers as he was one of the founding members. Spence still has a frock coat he made in the 1970’s from a pattern taken off a trashed original. The coat is one of the best reproduction frocks I’ve ever seen, the interior pieces such as the sleeve lining and front padding all came off the original coat, truly a wonderful jacket that would still beat anything produced today. Here’s a link with some photos and information on the 116th PA, the unit the Bummers became

http://hauntedfieldmusic.com/Co.I.html

Regards,

[Vuhginyuh]

I would be indebted to you if you could email some of thoes pics to me.

Sure thing.

[C. Hyson]

Just my quick insight into this discussion, I have noticed two aspects that overseas service has given me that I would not believe I would otherwise have gotten. I have a cumulative two years, working on 2 and a half, spent overseas with the Army and I must say that time seems to stand still for me when I'm over here. I can't believe there is a much better substitute for the longing to go home that the soldiers of the Civil War would have experienced, than to be put in that position yourself. Looking back on my last deployment it seemed as though it flew by, however, the current one seems to be taking forever even though I volunteered to return. It may not be a major item that aids my impression but it is something that I can relate to and speak of knowingly. With saluting and courtesies aside, I can't really think of any other ways that modern service is of a benefit to one's impression.

[Vuhginyuh]

Garrison,

I would be indebted to you if you could email some of thoes pics to me.

Best,


The sound you just heard was a scanner being thrown over-handed into a dumpster. I'm working on the pictures Scott, they'll be here soon.

[CJDaley]

Sometimes I think we just like to fight. :sarcastic

Some things are worth fighting over, some things not so much.

I'm just tired Paul of all the bull shit in this hobby. Guys are going to war over the most trivial things these days and it's just wearing me down man. If you want to fight to defend your family, defend your friends and defend your country, I'm cool with that.

But it makes me sad when people beat up on the 'unwashed masses' and stand on a pedestal on high and proclaim their take on the hobby is the one true way.

Every day I listen customers come into my store or into my tent telling me how much the elitism on the AC has pushed them away from the forums. But I've seen most of these elitist snobs. I've been in the ranks with them, I've seen thier impressions and I've seen them drill and cook and camp. I've seen their weight and their age and you know what...thy ain't that great. But I don't need to point them out in public and say so. I don't need to ban them from my events and I certainly don't tell them that my way of doing things is the best way.

There are 5,000 members of this forum and we can't agree on what a 100 man company can be like because no one is willing to concede that the way they do things may not be the most correct way.

I feel sad for people who take their hobby so seriously that they need to berate others about the color of jean cloth, the cut of jackets, the interpretation of a drill manual, the size of a waist line.

Fight about your family, your friends, your religion, your political beliefs, your nation and a host of other good causes...just stop fighting over trivial crap that ain't going to matter when we're all dead.

To quote from one of my favorite movies: Is this where you want to be when Jesus comes back?

[Ozark Ridge runner]

Greetings folks,
At the risk of stirring up some rather meaty conversation, as a newbie,..
what exactly is FARBISM ?
It is mentioned with quite a bit of distaste, to say the least. Not being one to want to offend or slip up a bit of clarity would be very appreciated.
Many thanks for all the info recieved.
Robert Stone

[Doug Harding]

It's a derogatory term us to discribe a person that knows his impression is not right but is unwilling to make the necessary changes.

Hope this answers your question without seeming snobbish.

Doug

[paulcalloway]

You might want to go frolicking through the FAQ, but here's a little nugget of info on Farbism for you:

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=tcat>What do you mean by "No Farbism?"</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1>One of the original two rules (in addition to sign your full name with every post) was "No Farbism." At the time of the creation of the original AC forum, there was a plethora of forums and websites which appealed to mainstream reenacting. The hardcore/progressive movement was the counter-culture. We didn't want just another forum where mainstreamers argued with hardcores. We wanted a forum where hardcores could come and discuss issues of authenticity without having to dodge the jeers and invective of mainstream trouble-makers. Thus the rule - No Farbism. Admittedly it's nebulous rule but if we made rules to address every single aspect of farbism imaginable, we'd run out of space on the server. The No Farbism rule is concise and for eight years, it's worked pretty well. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[ElizabethClark]

Doug and Paul have it nailed... knowing history, but refusing to make efforts to reconcile one's physical or internal "culture" to match that knowledge, is academically lazy, and "farb" (Forget About Research, Baby.)

And since this is the Authentic-Campaigner, there's really no point discussing things outside the range of documentable history. Pardon whilst I arrange the ties on my Moderator Bonnet, draw out my jangly ring of housekeeping keys, and close the thread.

[BigRonFH]

Having served in the Army in the 1980's, I will say that there are somethings from my experience that helps and hurtsd my impression. For one, the pace I got used to marching at for so long is the [B]wrong[B] pace for the 1860's soldier. It's just too fast. I had to "rewire" my brain to march at the proper pace for reenacting. However, somethings (like crispness in the manual of arms) definately helped. I guess all the work of those drill sergeants at Ft. Leonard Wood was ingrained pretty darned well. Haha. Anyway, I would have to say that, all in all, my actual military training is most assuredly a benefit.

Ron Hopkins
Co. D, 13th US Inf
Sioux Falls, SD

[WoodenNutmeg]

I remember when Jarnigan and The Quartermaster Shop were considered the go to guys as well, Issac. Hell, I even remember the days when old Jarnigan shelter halves had those large gold grommets on them and they were entirely machine sewn; people loved the "authenticity" back then! Jabs aside, Jarnigan was, if nothing else, pioneering in what they did and how they accomplished it.

Everything has its start somewhere!

One of my fondest memories was getting my first knapsack from Jarnigan for one Christmas in the early 90s. I loved that sack and had some very good times with it. But, time certainly passes us by, Issac; the gents and ladies here will certainly point that out to you if you are a bit in the dark on that (hehe). I can relate, however, as after being out of the field for a number of years, I was amazed to see the number of quality new vendors that had emerged in my absence. With that said, I am proud to announce we are in a great chapter of the Civil War reenactor as a hobbyist, with some of the greatest goods being made available to us to date.

I strongly recommend NJ ************ (http://www.nj************.com/OSCommerce/catalog/) and CJ Daley (http://www.cjdaley.com/products.html) for all your uniform needs.

Happy reenacting and good luck climbing back behind the stonewalls!

Pvt. Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[paulcalloway]

Brian -
It's probably worth noting that the messages you are replying to are from 2004.

[WoodenNutmeg]

Yeah, I realized that. But, I also thought that perhaps Issac would be kind enough to update us on his successes based on past members' advice; now that the thread has been topped.

Pvt. Bryan O'Keefe, Esquire

[Doug Potter]

I started all over about 8 years ago bought all sutler row stuff for the second time, then I discovered authentic events and sold all my sutler row stuff and bought over a period of time an authentic kit piece by piece, I have slowed down a lot, do about 1 event a year, I am keeping everything this time in case I get fired back up again which I will, just needed to slow down a little...

[Jim of The SRR]

I live in So. Florida, so I think units of any authenticity level are going to be few and far between in my area. Isaac Shelby Baker IV

Isaac,

There are actually two authentic units in FL that I know about. Both are member units of SCAR (SE Coalition of Authentic Reenactors). The website is www.geocities.com/scar_civilwar and there are two links there for the 48th NY and the Buckras who are both authentic groups in FL. Try contacting them.

Regards,
Jim Butler

[us1863]

Looking to get an idea on what an authentic reenactment is like. I attended the 140th Gettysburg and was very dissapointed. Some units were playing period music but on their CD players and others clearly had modern equipment in view in camp such as beer bottles and cameras. There were also vendors driving around on 4 wheel drive ATV's selling ice. Not the kind of event I would want to attend ever again. No matter how good your impression it is hard to get a feel for how it might have been back then in this sort of environment.

What should I expect of an authentic event? I hear some authentic events are more authentic than others and that some events are a mix of main streamers and authentic campaigners. What does C/P/H mean?

In thinking about it more clearly, I think a mix of units that vary in their level of authenticity would suit me but would not want to go to an event where someone was driving around selling ice.

Thanks,

Tom Waddell

[ElizabethClark]

Might I suggest looking at the Events calendar here on the forum, viewing available event websites and after-event reports? There's a wealth of information just a few clicks away right here on the site.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

For a starter and frame of reference, this IMHO, is a decent start to build on:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1081

Curt

("Terms," "Labels," and "Alphabets" are not entirely universal, and not everyone holds to the same definitions, concepts, or operationalizings... however, one has to start somewhere. Then, IMHO, pick out the events that match your Mental Picture of what you see yourself doing and where you see yourself fitting in. Meaning, go to the events that match your vision.)

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Read the post-event posts on this forum, as a starter. Numerous "after action reports" (AARs) are posted online; quite a number of those from the group of which I am a member, going back to 2000, are online at www.columbiarifles.org. The webmaster is working to get the 2006 and 2007 AARs posted.

[LibertyHallVols]

The answer to that question is a simple four-step process:

1) Go here... http://authentic-campaigner.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=105

2) Pick an event.

3) Get Registered.

4) Go!

Tell us what you thought!

[us1863]

Just have a question about hearing aids and hearing protection.

I wear hearing aids. They are not of the in-the-ear type that are easier to hide but rather sit behind my ears with a tube that goes into my ear. I can hear somewhat without them so don't wear them in a battle but would need them in camp.

During the firing of a battle I would need to wear hearing protection. I have hearing protectors that are molded to my ear and look like in-the-ear hearing aids.

Any thoughts on how authentic campaigners handle this situation would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Tom Waddell

[MarkTK36thIL]

In the book "Illinois in the Civil War," there is mentioning of soldiers stuffing cotton in their ears at one of the great western battles, I think Stones River.

[wsjax4]

Tom,

If you'll notice the number of posts left by the others that replied you'll see they total over 3500. Like you, I am new here and to reenacting. Maybe I can give you another perspective.

I think luck has a little bit to do with what you get out of an event but you can tilt the deck in your favor. I found this site about a month ago and left a post for someone that could tell me about events local to my area of NE Oklahoma. I got several responses, one from a lieutenant in the 16th Arkansas. He told me about an event that was a couple of weeks away and I agreed to go. After arriving I found their camp and introduced myself. I was introduced to several of the guys and then shown around the camp. I had already expressed an interest in possibly participating in future events but thought I should only observe my first. After a crash course in drill and a couple of hard sells I found myself changing into a uniform and falling in. I had a blast! That was two weeks ago and I've already ordered brogans and pants from sutlers that were at the event and purchased a jacket for sale on these boards.

My point is that I think you need to find someone to show you the ropes, a mentor if you will. I agree with you about the 4 wheelers but the ice is necessary to keep everyone cool and safety is important. Remember, wool uniforms don't breathe much. Besides, it wouldn't matter if the ice was being pulled around on a cason but sometimes I think you have to make exceptions. A lot of effort was spent to stay in character by all of the soldiers at the event I attended, particularly while the spectators were within the camp area.

Don't give up! These boards hold a wealth of info. Find someone to meet up with at the next event and give it another go.

[Hank Trent]

I agree with you about the 4 wheelers but the ice is necessary to keep everyone cool and safety is important.

It's my understanding that the vast majority of c/p/h events advertised on this forum do not provide ice for the reenactors, with the exception of Winter of 64. At least I've never been offered any, though I've not needed heat-related medical attention.

It really is helpful, as others have said above, to try attending a variety of events to see what goes on, and see what the finer details of "campaign," "progressive" and "hardcore" mean in practice to various organizers and various participants.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Milliron]

I agree with you about the 4 wheelers but the ice is necessary to keep everyone cool and safety is important. Remember, wool uniforms don't breathe much. Besides, it wouldn't matter if the ice was being pulled around on a cason but sometimes I think you have to make exceptions.

Negative, Johansen. I've been wearing wool in the sun for 25 years. Never needed ice. Didn't say I didn't want it. They didn't need it. Neither do you.

If you are hot and feel faint, stop, take your jacket off, tell your NCO and fall out in the shade. It is a very period way to cope, and also the preferred way. Your body's cooling mechanism is really very effective when left to its own devices. Ice is usually contraindicated. If you are truly in dire straits, all the ice in the world isn't going to help.

Actually, many wool uniforms breathe very well. The Federal fatigue blouse, when properly constructed, is the most comfy wool uniform you can wear. Satinet also breathes wonderfully, but is a bear to dry out.

Do not go to an authentic event and expect to be provided ice. It will not happen. You will however survive anyway.

[RudyN]

I wear over the ear hearing aids also. In camp I just go without them and hope I do not miss to much. On the battlefield I wear in the ear hearing protection. I know it is not authentic, but I want to save as much of my hearing that I have left as long as possible.

[John Grimes]

When wearing hearing protection, recommend using subdued or flesh colored earplugs. Provides you the protection without being too obvious. Seen folks using the bright orange kind, very noticeable.

[wsjax4]

Well, Tom, I stand corrected on the ice. The most important thing is that you don't give up on something you have an interest in. The event I attended was a lot of fun and I can't wait for the next. As I said, I think finding someone to talk to, someone to Q&A about a specific event will give you a better idea of what to expect and can help avoid any let downs. Good luck.

[Coatsy]

I've seen gents stuff cotton into their ears as per history, and the flesh colored ear plugs are fine as well. There are some gents that I've been reenacting with for years that do this and it really is not an issue. I rarely even notice that that they have to use the ear plugs. Just be smart about it.

[AZReenactor]

Scott,
It sounds like you are new to the hobby itself and totally unfamiliar with the authentic side of the hobby. I'm glad you had a good time at your first event but realize that at mainstream events you'll "learn" lots of nonsense, suppositions, and inferences that have nothing at all to do with history. The model isn't what is being done at the Civil War Festival or even what your "mentor" tells you rather the model is what they actually did back in the 1860's.

I strongly suggest you consider taking John Wickett's advice to Tom and follow the 4 step process he outlined if your goal is to try and experience history rather than the modern reenacting hobby that masquerades as it. While you may have had a good time at the event it sounds like you may be being led down a garden path towards three battles and a ball mainstream reenacting. I don't know anything about the unit you fell in with but the fact that your new pards let you order trousers and brogans from the sutlers at the event is probably not a good sign at all. Not trying to discourage you, just want to make sure you understand there is a real difference between the reenacting you've been exposed to and the reenacting that Tom is asking about and that this forum promotes.

The most important thing around these parts isn't that a fellow keep plugging away, but rather that we carefully invest our efforts in the most authentic historic experiences we can and provide the most accurate interpretation of history to our comrades and the public.

Well, Tom, I stand corrected on the ice. The most important thing is that you don't give up on something you have an interest in. The event I attended was a lot of fun and I can't wait for the next. As I said, I think finding someone to talk to, someone to Q&A about a specific event will give you a better idea of what to expect and can help avoid any let downs. Good luck.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Sir-

It was precisely what you said to start this thread that got us all feeling the same way you do now at some point in our hobbyist lives to seek a higher level of authenticity in our shared and proud American History and Heritage.

You are about to travel down the right path in the greatest hobby ever. Happily, there is no going back... and you frankly won't want to. ;)

If you need help, let us know. I'm up near your area and if I don't know the answer to knowledge you need, then I can refer you to someone that does.

Your comrade- Johnny Lloyd

[huntdaw]

Scott,

I agree that the event you attended was probably fun but was also probably a mainstream event. While there is nothing wrong with attending one of those necessarily, you owe it to yourself to attend a good authentic event to compare and contrast between the two and see which experience is more satisfying to you. Why don't you go to the Outpost event folder and give that a look-see. This would be a really good chance for you to experience a quality authentic event. There's a group of us from the Trans-Mississippi going to do a Confederate company there. If you're interested, send me a PM. We might be able to help you out with any gear that you might need.

If you can't make that one, take a look at some of the others that are on the calendar and see if there might be one that would fit your calendar.

[Charles Heath]

Tom,

Given that you live in Maine, your access to nearby high quality CW events is severely limited, unless you enjoy travel. Given that, the next opportunity in your region is in February. This, too, shall require a bit of travel to attend. Take some time to read (or re-read) chapters 5 and 9 in Billings' Hardtack and Coffee. If that sounds like something you would like to see come alive, and be part of bringing to life, seriously consider attending Winter 1864 in February. Here is a link to the event folder: Winter 1864 2008 (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=97)

As far as ice is concerned, you'll find delivery systems other than John Deere Gators and assorted four wheelers at some of the better events. Sometimes that will be a period icehouse with block ice; sometimes a horse drawn freight wagon, and sometimes it will be an old baldheaded man who happened to read about Mrs. Lacy's ice house being stripped bare. This summer at the Vicksburg NPS LH, common sense prevailed, and Team Indigo enjoyed a couple of mess kettles with water and ice. Come to think of it, that was the first time I'd been able rinse all the grease from those things in years....

I had my hand on a small horse drawn ice cutting plow this past weekend, and thought how much fun it would be to go up to one of those living history sessions in the great frozen northland to check out how ice cutting on lakes and ponds was done. I see the various tools for sale now and then, but have never seen them in actual use.

[ley74]

One thing there is no shortage of at W'64. Heck, we even had P%*@ bucket cycles.

[jacifus]

For the last two years, I have not been able to participate in the hobby I love, mainly due to serious knee problems. (3cm of cartlidge that isn't THERE!)

My question: In most of your units, do you have ways for reenactors to participate that are health challenged? I am trying to find out how to fit in, due to my limitations........:confused_

[Uncle Pig]

<strike>Isn’t that what the artillery is for?</strike>


Thanks,
Mark C. Foster

[ephraim_zook]

I guess the first question would be to what extent is your mobility limited?
Are you ambulatory but with limited activity?
Walk with crutches?
Must you sit most of the time?
Are you stuck in a wheelchair?

I would look for an impression that would keep you close to HQ -- possibly clerk, commissary or QM staff. Make it a functional impression -- not a decorative thing. An alternative -- Christian Commission or Sanitary Commission. Is there a historic site or fort nearby that allows reenactors to play there? A "desk job" at Fort Delaware might work for someone here in the northeast.

I'm finding, with increasing age, a need to take it easier. There are things out there. You need to look outside the box for ways to participate. If the events you attend don't allow for such roles or impressions then maybe look a bit farther afield.

Good luck!
Ron Myzie

[Dale Beasley]

Jaye,

Ron hit up on some very good points. Unless you are bound to a wheelchair, and unable to carry your gear, you should be able to find what you need.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

If you prefer to stay with a military impression , there is the Veteran's Reserve Corps for Federal and Home Guard or other militia-type impression for Confederate. Those would be quite authentic to a person with limited range or mobility. Perhaps the best impression, though, would be that of a citizen. Don't for a moment think that being a civilian is a let-down compared to a military impression as there are a thousand things to do when it comes to portraying an authentic civilian, several of which could allow you to maintain some kind of tie to the military if you prefer.

[Longbranch 1]

jacifus,

I feel your pain. literally...

95 % of the time I can tough it throughthe field portions of events. ( Generally with a most Progressive Mainstream unit)

But if I do have to fall out of ranks, ( Something I believe is under represented in the hobby), I wander back to the Surgeon, Commissary, HQ orArty, and find a way to make myself useful. With my Co. Officer's permission of course.
The Commissary is always first choice :)
Or, you can always desert!

Just a thought.
Kevin Ellis, 26th NCT

[Chuck Reynolds]

I volunteered to be my units cook, they were thrilled. I can't march.
Chuck

[jacifus]

I can't do a whole lot of marching....like over a couple of miles.

[jacifus]

I am with a Progressive unit, and I can participate in the battles with no problem. Where the problem comes in, is at major functions, like 145th Gettysburg, that is coming up. I went to Franklin about two years ago, and after about 3 miles, I couldn't hardly even walk, because the pain was ridiculous. At some of the big events, there is a lot of marching.

[jacifus]

Isn’t that what the artillery is for?

Thanks,
Mark C. Foster


I'm not THAT desperate yet...hehe, of course those guys certainly eat well! :D

[Cfarrell]

Not every event is a ground pounding, grass crushing, bug stomping 15 mile march. Some are! Pick and chose your events...a winter quarters event at Mansfield SCA in Jan. for example wouldn't have a long march - a lot of drill, though. Something like the up coming Outpost...well that might not be the best event for you.

Regards,

[Chihuahua]

Pards,
Several years back, I had a severe bout of tendonitus in my right elbow. Carrying my Enfield was painful. For two events I simply but my arm in a make-shift sling and made myself useful around the camp tending the fire and such.
I've got to believe it's period authentic to have a soldier with a temporary injury or illness hanging with his unit.
Mark Warren
Hairy Nation

[Hank Trent]

Not every event is a ground pounding, grass crushing, bug stomping 15 mile march. Some are! Pick and chose your events...a winter quarters event at Mansfield SCA in Jan. for example wouldn't have a long march - a lot of drill, though. Something like the up coming Outpost...well that might not be the best event for you.

Totally agree. I'd say a combination of the event and the role makes more difference than military or civilian, and by looking for upcoming events and suggesting possible roles that would minimize walking or climbing, you can find activities that fit your abilities. Civilian is not necessarily physically easy. Being a military clerk and cook a few weeks ago was much easier physically than scrambling over hills and fences a few days ago as a civilian. The physically easiest roles I've done this year were a military prisoner of war, and a lawyer arguing a case. The absolute hardest, and the first time I'd really felt like I was pushing myself to my limits at an event, was a civilian walk.

I'll also agree with what others have said about big mainstream events. Beer-battle-ball events spread out over acres and acres may take more walking just to get back and forth to water, battle site, camp and activities, than history-heavy events where there's an expectation someone will be portraying a disabled person.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[jacifus]

Not every event is a ground pounding, grass crushing, bug stomping 15 mile march. Some are! Pick and chose your events...a winter quarters event at Mansfield SCA in Jan. for example wouldn't have a long march - a lot of drill, though. Something like the up coming Outpost...well that might not be the best event for you.

Regards,

Yes, I agree with you about picking the events, unfortunately, what happened to me at Franklin is a perfect example of misinformation. I was told it was primarily a static camp event, with the exception of the battles, (and YES, I know well, that is NOT authentic), and the first day ended up being nothing but marching & fighting, etc., but I do try and pick events.

[Cfarrell]

Logistics for larger events like Franklin and other NSA (national) events tend to get mixed and confused. Some commanders at NSA events are like politicians...they'll say one thing to someone to get them committed then turn around and say something totally different to the next Joe Blow. They want to command a battalion not a platoon. (No disrespect intended :D) I learned a long time ago to take what NSA commanders say with a grain of salt.

On the other hand - authentic events which are much smaller then national events are more carefully coordinated. Logistics are smaller and easier to handle with 100 men then are with 10,000 men. For the most part what they advertise is what you'll see happen.

Regards,

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Isn’t that what the artillery is for?'

While the intent may have been humor, it detracts from the spirit of the question and the rules of the AC Forum for "No Farbism" and "Be Nice."

It is a goal of the AC Forum to encourage and promote authentcity in impressions and activities, and "authentic campaigning" in all aspects of Civil War reenacting and living history.

Curt
Moderator Hat On

[nick19thind]

The Veteran Reserve Corps.
If there's none in your area, stay with your unit and wear a sky blue jacket.
They received lighter duties than able-bodied soldiers and could be found attached to regiments as provosts, guards, nurses, cooks, drivers, signallers etc. Old veterans often helped train new recruits. Some fought in battles with muskets or as gunners.
As a VRC reenactor you might serve as an interpreter or perform scenarios in the camp (such as guarding enemy prisoners), maybe fighting battles or drilling the fresh fish if you choose to do so.

[Cfarrell]

Well taking your impression in mind I'll suggest something like a cook or clerk at stationary events such as winter quarters. Though Walkers unit tended not to stay in one place for very long in the winter. Walker's greyhounds were probably the most marched son-of-guns in the entire War. I think they covered every square foot in Louisiana by the end of the War. :D

A home guard impression might be something to consider. The Texas State Troops were very active on the frontier and along the coast. Remember Texas had to defend against indians to the west - Mexican raiders from the south and Fed.'s from everywhere.

Regards,

[jacifus]

I actually had an ancestor in the Frontier Battalion during the WBTS. But how would I fit into an event in a Home Guard Role?

[Charles Heath]

Jaye,

Perhaps a better question is to ask yourself which events are you planning to attend in the next few years.

[ohpkirk]

Jaye,
While still in its infancy, This is something you may want to look into:

http://texasfrontierbrigade.googlepages.com/home

[Hammer]

I usually cut small pieces of gun cleaning rags to stuff in my ears.
It works very well.

[mtvernon]

In all seriousness, have you considered something along these lines? http://www.journeyknee.com/

[DougCooper]

The healthy discussion on the Mill Springs thread was closed, so I want to reopen it here - to wit:

How do we become better soldiers and officers when the vast majority of our CPH events are too small to permit the kinds of manuevering and tactical decision making the original soldiers and officers constantly faced?

I am not talking about gear obviously, nor school of the soldier, nor shelter tents or no tents. It does us little good to be clad in Charlie Childs uniforms and sleep on the ground when we can't manuever 5 companies in a battalion from column into line and vice versa, don't recognize bugle calls and never get to work closely with a sizable number of cavalry or manuever through a gun line...or be part of a Grand Guard that is more than one reserve, 3 outposts and nine picket posts. Its not our "fault" - we just rarely get a chance to do it.

Chickamauga and BGR this year brought this to the forefront. I attended both.

BGR was an arduous and very unusual event. Well planned and well executed, it pitted 3 companies on each side against each other in a 5 day running fight that featured the kinds of decision making opportunities we rarely get to see. I saw a tremendous variance in tactical skill and decision making and knowledge of basic drill, as well as how a grand guard worked, etc, but by the end, everyone was a better soldier. It was a superb event for training in tactical decision making, skirmish, and soldier craft - and the event taught the soldiers how all this stuff works, when many of them had never faced these types of situations before. And yet intially it was decried by a number of hardcores (mostly hardkewls) as unworthy because it would be too large, too long and would never work out anyway. Wrong.

Chickamauga featured something we rarely get to do, but that ALWAYS happens at larger events - school of the battalion. In the ranks we had some of the most progressive folks in the hobby, and yet we could not do some simple battalion manuevers effectively because of a lack of experience and opportunity. We were all amazed at the skirmish line of 300 yards run by the bugle. But now take that same skirmish line, put it in the woods and pit it against an opposing line and manuever it, requiring quick decision making on the part of the officers and individual soldiers...a rare chance in the CPH world. Chickamauga was eye opening and extremely valuable as a training event.

The more Chickamauga's we can do, the better, and it ought to be the goal of every NPS event such as this to field at least 3 companies if space permits. Good for the NPS, good for the spectators and way good for us. Nothing like 2 days of school of the battalion with plenty of room. Thanks to those CPH organizations who are making the effort to get a lot of troops in the field for these NPS events.

Outpost is another outstanding chance to learn those skills, and we ought to be able to field at least 150 per side (less than 8% of the AC forum), if in fact we really care about being better soldiers and challenging ourselves. Only by fielding larger numbers can we truly simulate how this really worked at these types of events.

We sell ourselves short by avoiding entirely the larger events such as the NSA and some of the eastern events like September Storm. We look out on the mainstream as something to be avoided instead of looking inward and recognizing what we can learn - we aren't exactly experts on the basic things the original soldiers could do with their eyes closed. There are some mainstream battalions in this hobby who could run tactical circles around us (or form square around us) because it is a normal thing they do at every big event. We aren't exactly experts either at fitting in to the army, with continuous lines, paperwork requirements and the logistical connections up the chain of command and to units around us.

Again, its not our fault, we just don't have the opportunity very often.

10-15 years ago it was no big deal to have to maneuver our battalions within a brigade and we all felt part of the army. Today, that rarely happens and is part of the reason we have continued to fracture into smaller and smaller pieces. 10-15 years ago we needed to work together as functioning battalions because that is what we did at the larger events. Today we have little motivation to organize battalions and instead we have to continually attempt to create adhoc battalions and even companies for events, with all the fun political aspects of that regimen.

I continue to believe that our "end" of the hobby should field authentic battalions at one or two large events per year. Many of us already do. Its about training ourselves at the basic leadership and soldiership skills as part of the army, not just a platoon or a company. Its about giving our rank and file the opportunity to see things really work on a grand scale. And in the process, perhaps we then set an example of what the real soldiers looked like and lived like, something we normally excell at (and which attracts recruits). This ain't Cumbaya folks - its realizing what we have lost by leaving the party, and getting it back. It can't be done on a computer screen.

This does not mean EBUFU is wrong. It just means we need to expand our experience at 1-2 events per year. If we can begin to field 500-1000 men at EBUFU events, this post is moot, but that sure is not how the trend is going.

Said another way, the smaller we get, the smaller we get. If we really want to be better soldiers in an army setting, the training ground is out there at the big events. If we really want more recruits, the pool is out there at bigger events. If we really want to make a difference at preservation, we can lend a hand at the larger events (see the $125,000 raised at the Mill Springs event).

Do we want to?

[Craig L Barry]

Doug:

Yep, no doubt about it. You have hit the major discussion points and made some sensible recommendations. There is much to discuss here, and rarely has it been laid out as well as you have done it. The trends are what they are but the hobby does not have to be an "either/or proposition." The better questions at this point in time are what events to concentrate on, when and where? Since participation is largely voluntary the experience has to add value for the participant(s). The fact that Mill Springs raised $125K for battlefield preservation is a key point that keeps coming up over and over again in posts on the A-C Forum. I think the battlefield preservation aspect is significant to adding value both for the participant and the event.

EFUBU and the larger events need to be managed in a complementary way, meaning not all one or the other. Both should have their place on the schedule for interested participants and both can yield either positive or negative outcomes depending on how they are managed.

I am not sure this is exactly what you intended, but this direction is how I would like to see the dialog progress...let's not argue about the obvious. We see it happening, we know what we should do...so how best to proceed? My suggestion would be for those serious participants who primarily do EFUBU events, on this forum post recommendations and select a couple non-EFUBU events that are on the actual battlefield land (like Cedar Creek, New Market, Perryville, Mill Springs, etc). Do so knowing those events are not going to be immersion experiences and chose the ones to concentrate on based on the potential for raising funds for battlefield preservation.

[Spinster]

BGR was an arduous and very unusual event. Well planned and well executed, it pitted 3 companies on each side against each other in a 5 day running fight that featured the kinds of decision making opportunities we rarely get to see. I saw a tremendous variance in tactical skill and decision making and knowledge of basic drill, as well as how a grand guard worked, etc, but by the end, everyone was a better soldier. It was a superb event for training in tactical decision making, skirmish, and soldier craft - and the event taught the soldiers how all this stuff works, when many of them had never faced these types of situations before. And yet intially it was decried by a number of hardcores (mostly hardkewls) as unworthy because it would be too large, too long and would never work out anyway. Wrong.



Doug, I see this as a continum that not only does a better job in excellent portrayals of all aspects of life in the 1860's, but one that also performs a necessary function often missing in our society. Put simply, an opportunity that allows men to bond together in challenging circumstances, makes better MEN. I saw a jagged assemblage of folks on Tuesday. The air was much different even 36 hours later as I stood on a dark road, moving supplies, and could see a good semblance of an army spread in a field. By Friday, the faces were hardly recognizable as the same people. And by Sunday, there was a cohesive army, and individual MEN better for the experience. Even those whose physical limitations took them out of the mix early, and landed them under my mildewed tarp, learned a great deal from that experience.

Just as the sheer length of BGR taught something different that we needed to learn, so do the numbers available at some other events. If I fail to bring away new knowledge from any event, then its because I haven't put enough of myself into it.

Yesterday, I shifted into high gear preparing for a week-long event in an earlier time period. Its an event I've done for a number of years, I know what's coming, and the amount of work I've got to pack into the next 3 weeks to be ready. I also know that I'll learn a good deal in the process of going about daily living for an extended period, even though I've done this before. And I know that the historical site will raise close to $100,000 in that week, if prior totals are a reliable predictor. Win-Win All Around.

[Charles Heath]

Doug,

This is the sugar coated version. I'm saying this nicely.

If you want to go back to the mainstream, no one is stopping you. Go. Git. Enjoy. let me open the door for you, and don't let it smack you in the third point of contact. Snack on a funnel cake for me. Have a smoked turkey leg. If you persist in carving out and stomping on the heart of this wing of the hobby, then you may find a certain degree of resistance, especially from those who have dirtied their hands and spent a heck of a lot of time making these things happen. They are some fine people who do not deserve a let's go back to the mainstream slap in the face.

Every year, we endure the call to go back to the mainstream to support bigger events, feast on fabulous sights, support the sutlers, and enjoy all the pagentry, panoramic views, and great things going on at those venues. Wow. Wake up and smell the generator exhaust.

The last time my battalion board of directors asked us to do that very thing was 2002, and the event was 140th Antietam aka "Changing Destiny." As a battalion of nearly 300 pair of boots on the ground, certainly no one at that event came close to squeezing as much blood from that turnip as we did. In the end, we had a good time, but what an incredible waste of resources it turned out to be, save for one take home lesson. That prize has been not one official discussion or motion within the battalion to attend a mainstream event during the period November 2001 to July 2007. At 2nd Kernstown this year, Dave Myrick and James Owens splashed a proposal live and in person to recruit 3 companies to jine up with the Western Brigade at Andersburg in June 2008. I hope to see you there putting your money where your mouth is. If approved at the battalion meeting on November 3rd, that opportunity will be fleshed out in this thread.

A Carpe Eventum as the 1st Minnesota (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11827)

When Jeff "Sparky" Henion whipped off his "Changing Destiny" medallion in the parking lot, and proceeded to water it mightily with the nearest hose at hand, that mighty trickle pretty much defined a never turn back moment. Shades of Patton freshening the Rhine at Remagen with a stream of his own, but I digress.

Come to think of it, similar opportunities are available at N/SA mainstream events, encampments and skirmishes about this great nation, and if you want to recruit a battalion and drill at the Battle of Bugtussle Flats & Tractor Pull, then go ahead. If folks don't want to go, then there isn't much you can do about getting them to sacrifice a weekend to attend. That's as blunt as it gets. I do remember when Goat Boy had "qualifying events" for the fabulous (for them) Guano Dot event, but let's hope we can avoid that sort of thing. Come to think of it, if people wanted to go to these events, you wouldn't be making a beggums for a return to the land of 'streamin'.

While I'm pointing out the obvious, I do have some quibbles with Doug Cooper's 2008 rendition of The Back to the Mainstream Movement.

Two Schools: As has been beaten to a lathery pulp on this forum many times, the opposing points of view tend to fall into two camps. The first camp believes in creating a firm foundation on solid footings before growing. That's a prudent notion, and one that has served us well for over a decade, even in a period of hobbywide declining participation. The other school of thought has been to fix the problem from the top down. We haven't heard from Don Quixote or Sancho Panza for a while, and the results have been mixed with the best efforts achieving only a slightly improved mainstream event. Polishing a turd is still polishing a turd even with a hot Simoniz wax job. It is what it is.

Kick the Great Organizers in the Nads: When I look back on the damn good battalion level events over the past few years, I wonder why a guy from Idaho wants to give them a swift kick in the nuts? I really do. Just a few years ago, people were crying the blues about having so many NPS living histories (isn't that our bread and butter?) on the EBUFU calendar. Speaking of the NPS and various other site restrictions, some sites only allow a finite number of participants. If the landowner says "no more than 50 people," then go with the flow. Funny thing is I have seen a heck of a lot of events come and go that had far greater capacity, but where was Doug Cooper? Yep, off at a 14 man picket post that's too elite to be posted on the AC Forum. Does that make you a hypocrite? Let the people decide.

Quality Events: About a dozen people organize the top end events. The list is small. For example, if Pat Landrum called me up to say he had an event consisting of a man swinging a dead chicken over his head in a burlap sack in four part harmony, I'd probably go, and have a fine time boiling up that dead bird, too. I'll wager it would be a damn good event, and certainly the weather would be something to talk about later. We had kewlest of the cool time at Fort Donelson last year, and warm camaraderie at Vicksburg a few months ago. Maybe you've heard about the balmy tropics of Winter 1864? Sorry you couldn't make it. I remember some great opportunities for drill at Camp Curtin, Shiloh NPS LH, Chatham Manor, Antietam (NPS LH 2003), 2nd Kernstown, Fort Granger, Athens, and some other outstanding events. Sorry you couldn't make those, either.

Buglers: If they'd blow as often at events as they do online, we'd really have something to talk about. (This in no way is a reflection on the tooters who have been supporting quality events for years without a mammoth dose of lip service.) Come to think of it, I owe the legendary George Rabbai a word of thanks for adding much to a recent NPS LH at Spangler's Spring. Thanks for tootin' at a fine weekend. Can you bring more of that weather? :)

Grand Guard: Funny, but I didn't see Doug when we had over 250 men on Grand Guard a while back. Oh, that isn't counting the opposing force. It really was grand. Where was Doug?

Fieldcraft: Why no mention of that? Is that because the order of the day for the hardkewls is to "go get a motel room and a hot meal" when it drizzles? When in Rome....

School of the Battalion: This doesn't "ALWAYS" happen at larger events. That is a myth that needs to be nipped in the bud in rapid fashion. In fact, a larger event is probably about the worst place of all to try to squeeze in a good battalion drill between the shoot-'em-ups, dances, and ladies' tea.

Ad Hoc Battalions: I don't know about the rest of the world, but that epoch ended in Summer 2000 here in the East. It was good to see the PL spring from the lineage of the FCB that had served us so well. I recall when our first choice for leadership gave us an uplifted middle digit, too. Do people still have to work to put battalions on the field? Yep. Been there, done that.

And yet intially it [BGR]was decried by a number of hardcores (mostly hardkewls) as unworthy because it would be too large, too long and would never work out anyway. Wrong.

Funny how we didn't see any of that on this forum. If you have hardkewl friends who feel that way, perhaps you need to find some new friends who aren't hardkewls. I remember Randy Houck had a good two-year marketing plan for week-long events, and the larger challenge is being able to get folks to line up a big block of vacation time, kitchen passes, etc.

Outpost is another outstanding chance to learn those skills, and we ought to be able to field at least 150 per side (less than 8% of the AC forum), if in fact we really care about being better soldiers and challenging ourselves.

Maybe you just need to use better numbers. As of October 12th, Outpost has captured an incredible 44.2% of the actual market, and not some whining and crying little 8% of a forum's membership. That glass is darn near half full. Speaking of breaking a sweat, just how much recruiting have you done for this event? Emails? Phone calls? Face to face? Forum posts? Artful graffiti spray painted on railroad freight cars? For some reason I'm seeing a lot more of Doug's return to the mainstream epistles than posts supporting quality events. Ever notice that? Is there some puppetry involved here. Some have suggested as much.

Let's talk about numbers. I agree "10-15 years ago it was no big deal to see battalions " (mostly not drilling by any known manual) and even brigades worthy of the name. You know what? Those 10-15 years have seen a mainstream that could once field over 25,000 participants at one event drop to a few thousand, to include a higher percentage of camp sitters in sweatpants on the company street and screaming children. To be kind, let us just say the FMA elements have declined by about 75% since reaching an apex of quantity in July 1998. On the other hand, this end of the hobby is poised to break 600 this year. With one event remaining, it's going to be darned close, but it could happen.

I continue to believe that our "end" of the hobby should field authentic battalions at one or two large events per year. Many of us already do.

Few do, but battalions have been formed at a number of EBUFU events each year. The people who actively support these events with their attendance know this to be true. For some reason, I get the impression this "Back to the Mainstream" movement is a real pack of lies, distortions, and feigned ignorance. For some reason it seems fashionable on the runways of SOYA events to crap on those who have busted their arses to offer some truly great events over the past few years. What's the motivation? Is it somehow linked to the same motivation some groups have for not wanting any mention of their event on the AC Forum? Growing the hobby through secret (or not so secret) events is somewhat amusing, but watching someone who belongs to one of those groups beg for larger events is down right hilarious.

Do we want to?

About every five or six years maybe it does us some good to go to a farbfest or mainstream event to recalibrate our meters. I remember this discussion when a well known Mid-Atlantic group used to regularly eschew the better events, because they had a bayonet demo at annual GAC event in Gettysburg, or a fun little romp at Funkstown, or just had to go to Canvasville or some other hoohah. The list of missed opportunities was incredible. Other than a few strays, that group exists only on paper these days, mostly due to the fact the members were not challenged by the events they chose to attend. Those were mostly mainstream events. They bought a lot of clothes, missed a lot of great events, and are now all but gone.

Bottom line is most of the CPH are tired of the never ending Us vs Them arguments from those who would piss on the work of so many people, and try to drag us back to the 'streamerfest pits of Hell from which we escaped. It's a free country, so if you want to continue the counter-revolution, here is a forum for just that sort of thing:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/images/sazbobanner.gif

Frankly, I'd rather see Doug Cooper recruiting people for Tier 1 EBUFU events, but that pig won't sprout wings and fly anytime soon.

P.S. Craig, we use the term EBUFU. FUBU is a clothing company. The more you associate with the CPH wing of the hobby, the more you'll understand the acronyms. I hope to see you at an event someday.

[BrianHicks]

Here's my take on Big events.

As far as giving folks an opportunity to learn Battalion drill?

That's great for the Officers (while the men are the training tools, bring drilled with rifle in hand while the officers often forget to give them commands to shift their rifles around). And who are the officers at these big events? Not too many of our end of the hobby.

As for thinking and commanding in combat situations? For the few big show events I've been to, there was limited opportunities for that, as the events were scripted to the historical scenario this limiting any opportunity for flexibility beyond the script.

As for me and the fellas I know best, after being left on the field skirmishing all morning, then ushered into a Corps formation without a chance for water, then denied the opportuity for water before the next battle, only to find out that our Bns water wagon was out of service since before sunrise (no-one informed our Officers of this) and then to have another big bug deny men in harms way water from his Bans wagon... well... that was enough for us.

And yes... that was at Corinth.

The events that we have participated in, and sponsored for those in our side of the hobby, have seemed to always draw a good number of folks, and always have had enough people to achieve the goals of the event.

For those that desire to participate in the Battalion and regimental on line drill opportunities, there are plenty of events out there. And I bet lots of folks from here go to those events. But for many of us, the events as seen promoted on these forums offers what most of us are looking for. if we wanted more, we could (and some so) go elsewhere.

[Parault]

Talking about the "Big Bugs" at mainstream events,especially Corinth. I don't recall if you had this problem,however on our end we had one very large stack of firewood that was supposed to be " issued" to the troops. I think that the pile is still there. To my knowledge there wasn't one stick issued,don't know why. That will be the last time I do Corinth.

Don't you just love those " Big Bugs?"

[Parault]

deleted post

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Doug,

it's a shame to see that you've apparently missed a number of great events with battalion drill, battalion maneuvers, and other stuff that you're seeking.

That said, the answer is NOT to get more "campaigners" to return to mainstream events. Let's not go over that well-trod ground yet again.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

If we are judging the quality of an event by the firewood, maybe we're going to the wrong events. How about getting one of those corporals just standing around, get a detail of privates, and get/obtain/appropriate some firewood. Firewood issuing has never been on the high-priority end at the right events, along as there are trees and deadfall in the area.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Points made...this thread should probably be closed.

[SCTiger]

I am opposed to any wholesale transfer of Ebufu events, traditions or leadership back to the mainstream arena. I mean arena in a figurative and literal sense. I have made more friends on this side of the hobby and there is actually less politics and infighting. It may not seem that way, but the mainstream has never settled with itself or developed a core philosophy. We have a goal of representing the ACW in the most accurate way possible.

That absence of purpose will not be filled by the dedicated people on this side of the hobby. I really believe that more of you would have left and abandoned CW history had it not been for the fine events and projects the AC and the faithful messes and LH units have provided. My theory, a quick return to the mainstream is guarantee that you will be disgusted and discouraged. You will leave the hobby out of frustration.

There is no barrier to attending Mainstream Events (ME), I look forward to attending events like BGR and Outpost because they are challenging. They aren't easy, ain't supposed to be. Easy ME events may attract more people but, they make a reenactor super lazy. Challenging Ebufu events, will make you reconsider carrying that extra ration in your knapsack, you will be forced to work with mess mates to live as they did. It's a sacrifice and that word is hardly ever seen on the other side.

Personally, I am glad to have events where kids and modern attired women aren't in the military camp. I don't miss having to contend with store bought generals or wacky out-of-place specialty impressions. I don't miss the generators, cars in camp, lack of military discipline etc. What is there to return to???

We have a slump in the hobby as a whole, it involves several factors but, we will have another opportunity to prove ourselves in the field in 2011-2015. Lets kep the traditions going and the events,, even if we have just a few. We can't get "blood from a turnip" as Charles said.

[Parault]

I am sorry I didn't finish out ,I guess what was meant. I have been to events where there is " campaigning" experience. I love those. I like to do events where the owner will not have to clear underbursh for years. I guess I waivered off the subject.

My apologies

[PvtSchultz]

The problem as I see it is not do we go back to mainstream events or not. The real problem with this hobby is a lot of people just do not know how to get along and that is turning people away from this hobby.

I have been to both large and small events, mainstream and "authentic" and frankly I could rip into people at each of those events for perceived wrongs. One of the first events I took my son to as a Federal participant included a rather larger "authentic/progressive core" attached to it. At that event it rained, in fact it rained all weekend long. Now wouldn't you know it, all those "authentic" types ran away and hid in their cars or under the event tent where the visitors could see them come morning. My son stuck it out and selpt with his old man in my shelter tent and never complained. I could tell you how I have seen people more "authentic" than I run around in their pristine campaigner kits and have little form or substance about them when it comes to drill or the movement of troops. I could also tell you how horrible some of the larger events with all the fast food items offered for sale and the five and dime store "Generals" that ran around all self important but that is not my point. There is good and bad at every event no matter mainstream or authentic.

This kind of negative tit for tat does this hobby no good. It is a turn off and I am getting to the point of being turned off permant. People get their britches in an uproar whenever someone disagrees with them. It is a pity we don't know how to communicate properly and by doing so be able to truly listen to what each of us has to say. The hobby would be better off for it.

My fondest event took place many years ago on the actual battlefield of Camden, N. C. This event was small but the best I have ever been to. Orginal fields along with trenches and a great local historical society that made it a point to do their research and walk each of the units around to show where and how the battle played out. Portraying the 6th New Hampshire Volunteers, my pards and I walked away from that weekend the better for having gone. But I am digressing again.

So with a smile on my face and joy in my heart I say unto you, Why can't we all just get along?

[Pennvolunteer]

Now I'm not an old-timer in the hobby by any means, but I have to say that the hostility toward mainstream bothers me. As someone who strives for authenticity, I also am involved with mainstream because at least in Oklahoma, if you want to go to events, that is about it. More importantly, if you want to improve the hobby, I think you have to be around mainstream folks to teach them what is right. Most don't know any better, and I have found if you explain it to them, they are mostly open and receptive to being more authentic. I can't say how many times I get, "oh, I didn't know" and they aren't opposed to becoming better. It is a slow process, but I see this as a chance to educate folks, improve the hobby, and "bring folks over". They don't know what they don't know, and if we don't "go among them" we can't improve what goes on with mainstream. I get aggrivated, frustrated, and sometimes mad about things I see, but I am also very vocal about doing what is right and pushing for folks around me to get rid of the farb, do research and find out for themselves what is right.
I know that is what Cal Kinzer does. I see him at mainstream events all the time, teaching and setting a higher standard for authenticity, influencing the direction of the hobby for doing it right.
Keep up the standards, never let that go, and have campaign quality events without compromise, but I see some very hard line attitudes about mainstreamers in here, when I see them as recruits or converts waiting to see the light.

[Hank Trent]

More importantly, if you want to improve the hobby, I think you have to be around mainstream folks to teach them what is right. Most don't know any better, and I have found if you explain it to them, they are mostly open and receptive to being more authentic.

This hasn't been my experience. Most reenactors seem to hit their comfort level pretty quickly and don't want to change, because they're doing what they enjoy.

Seems to me, if there's any interest in attending mainstream events, the questions are:

Are we attending mainstream events instead of cph events, or in addition to them? Not sure how flexible everyone's budget and time off is. If there's the least chance someone is being encouraged to attend a mainstream event instead of a cph one, I don't see any good in it.

And what are cph reenactors going to be doing at these mainstream events, besides the battle and drill? It's hard enough to keep a mainstream attitude from creeping into cph events, without the funnel cake stand and the beer cooler and the parking lot right there. A few events where the cph wing actually accepts farbing out after hours is going to make it even harder to keep things on track at events where that's supposedly not acceptable.

I see some very hard line attitudes about mainstreamers in here, when I see them as recruits or converts waiting to see the light.

The problem is, it can be like a pyramid scheme. A cph reenactor goes to mainstream events, and recruits mainstreamers to... what? Go to other mainstream events to recruit more mainstreamers? There has to be an end goal there, and in my opinion, the end goal is cph events, or at least, if you're really geographically isolated and can only get to a few cph events a year, trying to find others to do a carpe eventum at mainstream events where the goal is reenacting to the best of one's ability regardless what others do, rather than interacting as a promoter or recruiter. In the 1860s, no one spent their days encouraging others to be less farby.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Jerry Ross]

Hello all,
I see points being made on both sides of this discussion.

The lower attendances to all events bothers me. The attendance has been going down since I started (I think it is my fault).

What I have not seen is the main streamers coming to one of our events in Company, Battalion and Brigade levels.I think we have gone to their events ,maybe when need to get Gen Moore,Gen Rambo (or others) to come to something we do.Maybe those of you who are on staff can talk to them to come over with us.

Just my two cents worth to maybe try something different

[coastaltrash]

Not even worth the vacation time anymore. I have all the respect for guys like Fred Yokubatis (sp?) but going to an NSA event, as previously stated by myself on another thread like this, is simply out of the question. They do not offer anything I look for and the treatment at the last two was far from substandard. Glad some found a happy place there, best of luck with that.

Jerry I like your idea. But it will never, EVER, EVER happen. The last time I remember the WIG being on the same field with Rambo in tight quarters was at Chickamauga in 2003. He had nothing but negative and snide remarks to make about the battalion, which were not called for and not responded to, at least verbally.

[tsgalloway]

Kick the Great Organizers in the Nads: When I look back on the damn good battalion level events over the past few years, I wonder why a guy from Idaho wants to give them a swift kick in the nuts?

Why does it matter where someone is from? Why all the personal insults in a public forum?

[Poor Private]

Personally I see more crap being tossed back and forth on the 2 or 3 more popular forums (not to name any at all) than I see at events.
Since the internet is one of the more popular ways for non-reenactors to check out wether they want to even reenact the civil war or not . We do not present a very pleasent face to them with all our carping back and forth. I even have to monitor what I read on the forums any more because I am so sick of it. It gets to the point when a thread leans this way I tend to hit the back button and go read or discuss somewhere else. The name calling in both camps are getting to the point people don't even visit the forums in the numbers that used to because of the same ole crap being tossed about.
Both sides have their niches, and their faults, and good points. I have even resigned from a couple of forums because of it. This is not why I joined the forums. I joined the forums for the comradship, and the possibility that I may learn something, or to be able to pass along information that I may have gleaned from other sources.
When moderators from both sides even get into the act it really starts to bother me. according to the dictionary I have in front of me the definition of moderate is 1-avoiding extremes: also temparate 2- To lesson the intensity of 2: to act as a moderator.

[sharpshooter]

I can respect that everyone has an opinion on this but the personal shots are plain out of line PERIOD. For those who don't know Doug, he is a damn fine reenactor, understands the hobby and is a good guy. I don't agree with everything he stated but let us argue the point not the person who is saying it. I get sick and tired of the anger showed here.

[Craig L Barry]

P.S. Craig, we use the term EBUFU. FUBU is a clothing company. The more you associate with the CPH wing of the hobby, the more you'll understand the acronyms. I hope to see you at an event someday.
__________________
Charles Heath
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, this thread turned into a big pillow fight, who could have guessed?

Charles:
Do we have a titular head of the "C/P/H wing"? Since there isn't one, it is probably left to the individual to determine which mix of events best meet their objectives. I hear great things about the <strike>EFUBU</strike> EBUFU, and from people whose opinions I respect! Yours among them. There is no doubt I have been missing out on something good. Never say never but with a variety of activities competing for any available time, it all depends on priorities. I'll make a deal with you. Write and submit a monograph on "Rations" for the upcoming Wearing the Blue (mid-to-late 2009). Some survivors of your cooking say this is an area where you are probably non-pareil in terms of your knowledge and insight. Like all Watchdog publications, the proceeds go to battlefield preservation.

On that subject, who administers the <strike>EFUBU