How do you motivate others or improve the hobby?

[SCTiger]

Comrades:

In a make up to one bomb of a farb bashing thread. I would like to
hear your proactive ideas on "how" to improve the hobby and/or how we can
motivate the "team" toward better authenticity and historical accuracy.

Your ideas can be quotes, past experiences, practical ideas, anectdotes, philosophical testimony, personal beliefs or anything, so long as it's positive and pushes us toward a working model for success. You can't use any previously posted AC material, (i.e. Campaigner Manifesto).

1st define the goal for success: What constitutes a successful and rewarding hobby? What would we consider as "excellence in" our efforts? How can we fuse those two goals together?

Avoid the long worded stuff, we never read them anyways :D . We need some good vitamin M and a shot in the arm.

I have a few quotes from a certain SC coach that could apply to us.

"In the successful organization, no detail is too small to escape close attention."

"I never learn anything talking. I only learn things when I ask questions."

"If you're bored with life -- you don't get up every morning with a burning desire to do things -- you don't have enough goals."

""Success is a fleeting thing. Nobody’s successful all the time, but nobody fails all the time either. [People must] give everything that they have of their talents and their abilities to a certain cause and pursue that cause through to ultimate achievement."

"Build your empire on the firm foundation of the fundamentals."

"Do right. Do your best. Treat others as you want to be treated."

"Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it."

- Lou Holtz.

I would define a successful hobby as one that:

1. Would move forward and adapts.

2. Encourages cooperation and is dedicated toward team goals vs. individual glory.

Rewards:

1. We contribute to the overall body of ACW knowledge. We preserve.

2. We recreate history with dignity and honor.

3. We earn the respect of the public, scholars and colleagues.

4. We have fun.

This isn't a debate, it's a brain storming session so post without fear.

Greg Deese
Motivational Mess

[Clark Badgett]

Well Mr Deese, I don't really think it is possible to get most of the people in this hobby headed in the right direction. Just like in the everyday world. the greatest majority of people are satisfied with mediocrity. You will always have the few that seek to be the best, and some that will gravitate towards the opposite end of the spectrum. About the only thing that we can do would be for us to organize and establish organizations that literally out perform all others in all aspects. Even then the converts will not be a flood, but a mere trickle.

[Tom Ezell]

Greg:

This is a re-hash of my answer to the same question over on the N/SA forum:

"Improving authenticity starts with one reenactor at a time. The secret is that you, yourself have got to realize that:

1) Something is wrong; and
2) You want to change it.

The step is to actually do something about it, and take action to fix the stuff you want to change. Decide what return or benefit that you want to get from your participation in the hobby, and then start working to fulfill that goal. If all you want to do is go to the local Rebfests, shoot at Yankees, and hang out with the guys in your local unit, then no, swapping your Fall Creek jacket for a Becky Nall original is probably not cost-effective.

If, however, you want to play the hobby at a higher level, then you will need to get the appropriate tools and toys to do so, as well as change your behavior to meet what's expected to play in the bigger leagues. You can't play softball or minor-league ball with a T-Ball bat or under the T-Ball rules.

It means that you will often have to strike off on your own and start going to events where the rest of your old buddies won't go. You may have to fall in with a bunch of strangers, but by Sunday afternoon you'll probably have a batch of new buddies and be looking forward to the next get-together.

If upgrading your gear is what you need to do to play the hobby at the level you want to play, then yeah... it's definitely worth it. If it doesn't, and the rest of your home unit is happy with the Fall Creek or pre-90s homemade status quo, and they like things just the way they are, then the $195 for a hardkewl jacket would buy a whole lot of beer or ironmongery... with maybe a little left over to make a cover for your cooler.

It’s not just gear, either… it’s the whole method of trying to recreate military activity of the time. We are strongly wedded to setting up camp, then marching forth as set times to offer battle to the Yankees (much like the Philistines and the Children of Israel in the Old Testament) rather than maintaining a 24-hour operation of grand guards and outposts between the rival armies, and then working the flow of the event from that point forward. Attitude and method are every bit as important as the gear.

YOU have to want to change, and decide to make that change happen.

Now, when you try to expand that change to an entire company , much less a battalion, things multiply exponentially, because while you can directly influence your own impression, group dynamics in a company or battalion make it exponentially harder to reach any sort of consensus. Collectively, the whole group has to come to the epiphany that Something Is Wrong, and collectively, they all have want to change. Everyone needs to buy in on the idea, and unit leaders have to set the example by making their own impression as impeccable as their budget will allow, and holding all the rest of the fellows in the unit to the agreed standard. It means being serious about inspections in ranks, and being tough, but equally fair, to everyone.

Some of the stuff this sort of leader will be called on to do will not be popular. I manned an inspection station at an authentic event earlier this fall when a cavalryman passed through, and we required him to remove his spare revolver cylinders (4 @) and return them to his truck. You’d have thought, from his reaction, that we’d told him he’d have to cut his weezer off and leave it behind as well.

Setting the example extends past the company captains and lieutenants to the battalion colonels and majors, all the way up to the brigade and Division generals. They set the example for us all. If it’s a campaign event and the troops are sleeping on the ground, it won’t hurt them to live off their saddle, either. History is rife with stories of Stonewall Jackson and W.T. Sherman sleeping in fence corners along the route of march when the army was on the move.

If the officers and NCOs in a unit aren’t setting the example that the Brigade or Division has set out for the unit, how in the world can you expect the privates to do so?

Much of what is deemed as "missionary work" falls on stony ground as the parable goes. "Civil War reenacting" is a number of radically different "mental pictures" and sometimes competing and incompatable activities.

The N/SA and the 1CD set out some basic guidelines at the February 2003 meeting, but the new standards on the web site are substantially different. There is difficulty getting folks to come out to Alliance events if they are likely to be pushed out of their personal comfort zones, so tents, and lots of them, will apparently now be the normal mode of camping. Reenactment events are moved to a different season in hope of better weather (e.g., Wilson’s Creek, Murfreesboro and Franklin). Over the past four years or so the Alliance has become very complacent and comfortable in positioning itself as a mainstream group, and that appears to be the definite trend from this point forward. Leaders are looking for numbers, so that is the apparent priority, at least at this point in time. The Division may try to get back to its roots, but probably only after the Folks In Charge are much more comfortable about the numbers end of the business.

If you’re not happy with the way the TVB is using the time that you devote to the hobby, you might look around and try an event or two with a unit that holds itself out as offering something closer to what you’ve decided you want to do. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, you know. There isn’t a whole heck of a lot of difference between the way the TVB does business and the way the TMVI, the Elk River Bn, the First Confederate Legion, or even the Federal Frontier Brigade does business… only a few different personalities here and there. But you’ll only know if you try it out.

However, people interested in personal knowledge, skill, growth, evolution and moving further along on their journey toward the historical emulation/understanding horizon tend to seek you out. Always remember to share, and always make them welcome. Save your time, effort, energy, and money for building and growing on the solid ground of like-minded individuals who not only think like you do in your "mental picture" of what you see yourself doing and where you see yourself fitting; but, also those who are able to challenge you, mentor you, question and debate you, and learn and grow with you – with all of you sharing and contributing to mutual growth, understanding, and evolution in the hobby."

Please forgive the warmed-over advice. They didn't like it over at the N/SA place, either ;-)

Tom

[YankRI]

After my first season in the hobby, I've realized or confirmed a few things (pardon the appearance of triteness but I liked Greg's suggestion of keeping it simple):

The fun is in the striving...

You shouldn't go to Burger King expecting filet mignon...

Likewise, don't go to Tavern on the Green looking for McNuggets...

Live and let live...

The smaller the stakes, the more vicious the politics...

If you have something nice to say then say it...

Nobody minds constructive criticism when coupled with tact...

Not everyone is trying to get the same thing out of the hobby as I am...

And that's okay...

This forum (and its posters) has been and continues to be a huge help to me. My interest in this period of our nation's history has grown tenfold in the short time I've been involved in the hobby and as a result, I have learned much. I recognize that I've only scratched the surface and look forward to continuing having fun in the striving...

With much thanks,

[mark11]

My humble opinion is this, after 2 years of being a streamer and finally seeing the light, I came to the conclusion that if it is not in the heart and soul of someone to strive for greater authenticity, then nothing you or I could say to another person will persuade them. I am moving towards more authenticity because it is what I want, not because I was persuaded by someone else(although reading the posts on this board were a great help in finally deciding to take the plunge). I think being a flaming farb is kinda like being an alchoholic, admitting there is a problem to yourself is the first step to recovery.(no offence to any recovering alcholoics out there).
Mark Robeson

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Here's a classic quote:

"History learned through knowledge shared"

[SCTiger]

Fellows:

Well let's leave the Herculean effort of "conversion" out of the equation for a second. How do we energize and motivate each other amongst the c/p crowd?

I am trying to foster a new direction that will re-energize folks, encourage them to attend events and return to the comraderie. Good people are attracted to positive groups. I think everthing is already in place, we just have to market ourselves as a group of dedicated historians that are adaptable, mature, creative, highly educated, personable and hard working. We have to make the grass as green as possible, if we want to attract the caliber of folks we want.

We can't make every reenactor a first class campaigner. We need to retain our quality folks and improve our realtionships. All the talk over the shrinking hobby, farb bashing, ego clashing and in-fighting has to cease.

Try this. We have a number of quality events on the calendar this year. If you attend any c/p/LH events that are up to standard, then make sure to communicate your satisfaction and describe how excellent it was to others. A "you-should-have-been there" talk. If you were extremely pleased then give an accurate description on other forums, talk about it at other mainstream events, call your old "pards" up and tell them about it. If they like what they hear, give an invite and advice on "how to" make the standards for the next event.

If we have any problems or "issues" we need to do this in-house and within the parties concerned also called the "chain of concern". Airing our dirty laundry hasn't won us many fans. Open warfare between units and personalities creates a "poisoned environment" that no one wants to enter.

Instead of harping about how "bad" the next megafest is, let's concentrate on how great our last EBUFU was. Let them know.

With any event I attend this year I can guarantee three principles:

1. If I am pleased with the event, there will be lots of open praise and good "word of mouth."

2. If I am not happy, I will talk directly with the parties concerned.
I won't trash the whole event, the c/p wing, and the hard work of others.

3. I won't trash mainstream events, people or units. I will "spread the gospel" and illuminate our efforts at every opportunity.

It could be that I won't "convert" anyone. I will insure our integrity, remain loyal and I won't shoot my own foot off.

It won't work overnight, but it will eventually.

[Tom Craig]

"[QUOTE=SCTiger]Fellows:
Try this. We have a number of quality events on the calendar this year. If you attend any c/p/LH events that are up to standard, then make sure to communicate your satisfaction and describe how excellent it was to others. A "you-should-have-been there" talk. If you were extremely pleased then give an accurate description on other forums, talk about it at other mainstream events, call your old "pards" up and tell them about it. If they like what they hear, give an invite and advice on "how to" make the standards for the next event."

Regards,

I think this idea is right on the money. We can't coerce people into improving but we can encourage them with peer pressure. Will it get everyone? Absolutely not! Will it be quick and easy? Absolutely not! But it will work over time.

As an example just take a look at the growth of this forum and the number of posters that contiues to grow. If you look also at the "other forum" you see many of the posts are headed down the right direction, despite a healthy sprinkling of farbs.

The issue reminds me of the growth and development of "streamer" reenacting in the 125th series. Then you had all sorts of loose end organizations and units that came together to form larger battalion organizations. The majority of units came around and joined those organazations, and the ones that didn't were eventually marginalized and fell to the wayside. In our current situation I feel like there is a steady but slow movement toward more authenticity. It gradually grows and improves and more events are heading that way. In time there will still be farby events, but with good peer pressure there will be more better events/reenactors and the farbs will be left by the wayside...kinda like Darwin's idea.

Keep up the good press, keep a positive attitude and keep spreading the word to your pards what ever side of the hobby they're on.

Take care,
Tom Craig

[flattop32355]

If you look also at the "other forum" you see many of the posts are headed down the right direction, despite a healthy sprinkling of farbs.
In time there will still be farby events, but with good peer pressure there will be more better events/reenactors and the farbs will be left by the wayside...kinda like Darwin's idea.
Tom Craig

With due respect for Mr. Craig's opinion, I worry that a blurring of definition may be in the offing here.

I do not know how deepset this sentiment goes within the p/h/a community, but it seems that some folks may be equating the concepts of "mainstream" and "farby". As with all such terminology, one person's idea may not match that of another.

I can in no way be considered a c/h/a'er: My son and I just started reenacting this past September. In purchasing our equipment, we were not so much concerned with exact replica down to the number of strands in each thread, etc., but with buying items which would give us a reasonable impression of Union soldiers. We were totally unfamiliar (but not for long) with the terms farby, mainstreamer, hardcore, stitch-nazi, etc. The unit we joined is the most local we could find in order to maximize interaction with the others involved there and to allow for other life pursuits that get in the way of reenacting (work, school, church; you know, all those other minor things :)). And we joined to have fun at something together.

I do not consider my unit as farby. I have yet to see a single polyester sackcoat or pair of wingtip brogans. No one I've met there yet is interested only in "killing some d**ned Rebs or seeing who can blast out the most black powder per event. I have yet to hear one comment about those miserable hardcores trying to force their will on other poor soldiers. When someone sees equipment that looks better (as in more accurate) than what he has, discussion is held on why it is moreso and where it can be procured. If they can afford it, they may go and buy it, but there is no coersion to do so.

We are definitely a mainstream outfit. Some in A-tents, some in dogtents. An occasional bottle of inauthentic Jack Daniels has been known to make its presence felt around the campfire. But to equate these people as farbs would be, to my opinion, a grave injustice to them and to the hobby. The two terms are not the same, anymore that an accusation that all p/h/c's are stitch-nazi's and control freaks. It just ain't so in either direction.

We are most of us trying to advance the accuracy of our impressions. But to imply that not going on to becoming a campaigner is to be a fallen angel and doomed to everlasting fire and torment seems to me unfortunate. Some desire to take their impression as far as it can be taken. My applause are loud for you, and I may one day join you among those ranks. But some do not seek to reach that point, and I am content that they do well and accomplish good with where they reach.

I aim none of these observations at Mr. Craig, nor any other individual. I speak to a perception that I find unsettling for me within the hobby. I find no reason why we cannot all meet on the same hallowed ground at the same event and experience it as fully as we desire.

In humility,

[SCTiger]

Bernard:

I don't think anyone is down on mainstream events, we would like some of the dedicated and knowledgeable reenactors to take a walk on the campaign side.
I never believed that all mainstreamers were farbs. :) 95 percent of the people on this forum started out with mainstream events.

I belong to a mainstream infantry unit and one authentic mess. I am just advocating inclusion. One advantage I do see with belonging to the C/P/LH side is being invited to different places, such as State and National battlefield presentations, privately owned or preserved battlefields and ACW museums.

In 2003 I garrisoned at three forts, fought on two privately owned farms that were pristine and about 98 % clutter free and participated in living history's at two national battlefields and one museum. A good venue can really boost your spirit and put you in the right mood. Now many of these folks have specific standards before you can represent them, so we all have to make adjustments.

I am not downgrading any mainstream event, but it's a good change up to escape the clutter and modern distractions. I feel that many dedicated mainstreamers could "grow" in such an environment. When the modern stuff can't be avoided, a living history at a museum or battlefield park is a good change of pace from the mainstream routine. The standards are meant to make the experience more realistic and historically correct, not to exclude any particular group or reenactment stlye.

Many of the mainstream organizations are starting to recognize this need and are sponsoring events that are oriented toward living history and campaigners.

Most mainstreamers enjoy authentic settings and most that I have talked to would like less non-period stuff around their camps, to include vehicles, PA systems, food vendors, etc. When they complain about 2000 porta potties near their camp, too many cars or a helicopter hovering overhead, this is when I would make a pitch and "sell" a good Ebufu event. "At TAG in 2003 we fought in a pristine Tennessee valley and there wasn't even a power pole around." If he/she is interested and would like to try it out, I would continue on and then explain on how the upgrade could be made for the same price he paid for his Sutler row gear or how he could attain used gear. Then insist that he can still use the new authentic gear for his traditional events (what a great change that would be!) It's win/win. No negative vibes at all from this wing. We aren't trying to "steal" anyone away from the mainstream.

If they are worrried about any jerks or stitch counters, just inform them that we are still looking for the "perfect" reenactor but, we haven't found that person yet. There are just as many malcontents and butt holes in the mainsteream as there are in the c/p/h. We just have butt holes with museum grade equipment. :D I wouldn't let any particular jerk keep me from enjoying an excellent part of the hobby.;

I am off to Las Vegas for 7 days, see you in Alabama next week if your attending Fort Gaines.

Thanks to everyone for their comments!

[fahtz]

Fellows:

3. I won't trash mainstream events, people or units. I will "spread the gospel" and illuminate our efforts at every opportunity.

Greg you hit here why i am even in this hobby and the authentic wing at all on the head right there! I am a believer in if you attend an event you know fully what you are getting into and to come to a forum to bash the event you choose to attend you are being a very immature person. Also if it wasn't for an authentic at a mainstream national event laying next to me in the field chatting with me and inviting me over to their camp afterwards. I would not be talking on this forum right now.

Mitch Critel

[Eric Burke]

One can always fall back to the age-old statement of "If you're gonna do it, do it right." But frankly, I think its been over used (especially in this situation). To tell you the truth, I am very contrary to alot of you who state that it is infact impossible to drag others into the authentic movement. That's just downright incorrect.

There's alot of things you have to consider when approaching a mainstreamer about the entire situation. First of all, you have to use a friendly attitude, and don't even try anything if you haven't known the guy for at least a few days. Just walking up to a random reenactor and telling him what he needs to do to improve his impression (it doesn't matter in what kind manner you do it in) will probably piss him off royally (wouldn't it you?).

I like to look at it like this ...

"Reenacting" is supposed to be the re-creation on every level of a historical event. Be it a scene on "Unsolved Mysteries", or the 140th Anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg. It should be done to the fullest extent of authenticity capable by the producer, simply because why should one even do it if the goal isn't to give a realistic idea of what the event was really like to the public? I fail to understand alot of mainstreamer mentality, but I'll save that for another thread.

[Jersey Devil]

1. If I am pleased with the event, there will be lots of open praise and good "word of mouth."

2. If I am not happy, I will talk directly with the parties concerned.
I won't trash the whole event, the c/p wing, and the hard work of others.

3. I won't trash mainstream events, people or units. I will "spread the gospel" and illuminate our efforts at every opportunity.



If I am a potential, future attendee I want to hear the facts about an event, not be fed sugar.


I want to hear about all the good things about the event.

I want to hear about all the bad things about the event.



Let others learn from your experience.

If you attended and want to criticize, I want to hear it all, not just the good.



And about #3, well we all know what was said.

[Eric Tipton]

If I am a potential, future attendee I want to hear the facts about an event, not be fed sugar.

I want to hear about all the good things about the event.
I want to hear about all the bad things about the event.

Let others learn from your experience.

If you attended and want to criticize, I want to hear it all, not just the good.
Bo:

I agree and the key word is objectivity. I've said it's like a reporter attending an event and writing down the facts. The hard part is getting people to be objective when they put it in writing - especially about the bad parts of an event. The word of mouth previously mentioned in the thread is pretty powerful if it is apparent that the person stuck with the facts. If many AAR's or Evaluations are written about an event, it is easier to get the objective story, because certain themes will repeat themselves over and over if something went wrong and the same goes for the good parts of the event.

My two cents on encouraging people to go to more authentic events is that encouragement is all anyone can do. No one will attend more authentic events or upgrade their gear until they decide to do it for themselves. In some cases, it seems that the more pressure that is applied, the more the person will resist. It's like the salesman who tries to be too pushy...bound to turn the prospect off.

[Dale Beasley]

lead By Example

[Kris Ruffino]

Hey guys,
I am sorry but, I have to agree things do need to be changed in the hobby. Now I will admit that things have changed a lot since the 60's and 70's. Yet so much still needs to be done. At EVERY event it is ya'll that bring across what the Civil War was really like. When people walk through the tent cities and see tents with beds and dressers. Huge pots of stew and rack of lamb they get the wrong impression. Most schools don't really cover the Civil War because of all of the contraversy behind it. The farby behavior needs to be minimized. (And yes I said farby) Like women in camp it didn't happen the way mainstreamers bring it across. They have a women in front of each tent cooking huge meals. I mean come on. Civilian reenactors have a place in the hobby but not in camp with the soldiers. Sorry but the truth hurts. Give your wife the "Hilton" sized tent and you use a shelter half. Sleeping on the ground is not that bad. Also stop drycleaning your uniforms. It is not going to hurt you to wear dirty clothes. The people you are protraying were dirty, smelly, and crawling with bugs. Another thing that can be gotten rid of is all of the brass. You don't need brass on everything. Hell during the war you would have been the first ones shot by sharp shooters. Once again do the people you are protraying some justice. The weren't dumb enough to go into every battle looking like a South Compton pimp. A few small changes would do wonders for any event. Just remember it is up to you to teach our youth about the greatest battle in the world. If you don't do it rught then they will go through life ignorant of the truth. They need to know what the soldiers really went through. They need to see how much they suffered to fight for their beliefs.
Kris Ruffino

Hallo Herr Ruffino! Welcome to the AC Forum! Forum rules require that one's avatar image be of oneself and not a graphic, cartoon, or image of someone else. Please edit yours. Thank you. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[ElizabethClark]

Personally, I adore "mainstreamers." I also adore "farbs"--the ones that aren't necessarily hard-case farbs, and the ones that are hard-case.

I love them because if I'm polite and set a good example, I have a chance to show them how much easier it is to have a progressive mindset, ask questions, and improve the internal & external impression.

I even like the heckling clothing mavens. They start out really frustrated when I don't bother to argue, but most come around and start asking real questions after awhile.

There's nothing like the surprise in a woman's eyes when she draws up her first little stretch of gauging, and realizes it looks exactly like my example piece, and that this will be a whole lot easier than using her differential feed serger to attach a skirt! Or when she sees how much better she will look when she shortens her bodice, tightens up the fit, and wears a corset. It's astonishing to them! And they do, 90% of the time, make changes.

Yes, this initial "get 'em hooked" phase has to do with gear. But all through improving the gear, I get a chance to talk up the passion and the interior culture stuff, and help them get motivated to find a passion and impression interest... and that gets them right out of the mainstream, and into a progressive, authentic-based thinking pattern.

One thing folks can do with AARs, that will blend objective fact with a bit of sugar (sugar isn't a bad thing, when kept reasonable!), is to go ahead and point out a few flaws, and add their own ideas for future solutions.

Rather than say, "Parking stunk," it's actually moderately helpful for future event planning if they will say, "The parking areas were unorganized, and this made it hard to get in and out efficiently at the beginning and end of the event. It would have been nice to have one or two guides, directing the parking and making sure the space was used well."

Also--send an AAR to the event organizers. Let them know a concise list of what you really liked about their event, and actual suggestions on things that could be changed for an improvement.

Opinion backed up with actual thought gets the facts across in a positive way... and it's entirely possible to list the "cons" of an event in a non-bashing way. And it's that reasonable, pleasant demeanor that can actually help change the stereotype of "those evil authentics." (For instance, quite a few people are surprised, after talking to me for awhile about clothing or other such things--they'll start talking about evil stitchcounting Thread Nazis, and I smile, and let them know that technically, I'm one of those. And I'm not so bad, right? Of course, I'm a hopeless Mary Sunshine, and that helps. LOL)

Many folks in the mainstream honestly don't know there's a different world out there--one where there are no women and kids in the military areas, etc. Small local living history opportunities, including civilian-only events, are excellent ways to get them to see the big world.

[TeamsterPhil]

For most in the hobby, AARs are the best way to gauge the success or failure of an event. This information can then be used to evaluate the next offerings of the organizers. If a pattern of good or bad events becomes evident, the rank and file will either keep coming or find better events.

The worst thing for the common reenactor is a vacuum where there should be information. If all a guy sees following an event is cyber-backslapping and virtual-attaboys from the officers and organizers, he's not going to be able to properly evaluate the quality of the event. Maybe the big bugs and straps had a good time, but was the rank & file satisfied? Did they have the experince that they were led to believe they would have? I would rather plow through a thread with 186 AARS from privates (both good and bad) than read one more "I'd like to thank all the little people and my fellow officers that helped me put on this event" post.

For event organizers and attendees, when you read a good AAR of an event, take the good that is mentioned and try to meet this experince as a goal. If there is bad mentioned, don't shoot the messenger. Take his perception and learn from it, making adjustments if necessary. If his perception is skewed, politely point out your perceptions. I once posted an AAR that was 80% good and 20% bad. I was slammed on the board and told that I was ruining the hobby. And this was even before certain fora became infamous. Do not make the rank and file feel intimidated about posting an AAR - they are the men that can make or break an event with their input.

Phil Campbell
ChickenNeck Mess
1st Btn, Army of the Trans-Miss
OTB Teamster Corps

[Jersey Devil]

Phil,

You are most definately ruining this hobby. I can't wait for the post-event-post about the little people. How come no one ever thanks the big people? Or the critters? Or the Lister [sic] bags? Or the toll collectors on the NJ turnpike when we travel to an event?

Next time take the time to thank the toll collector near the Del. Memorial bridge on your way to an event. Put him/her in your next AAR.

Pop and I did thank the nice ladies down the street from TAG at that corner diner (?) on 79 I believe, for breakfast and their shitter before the event on Fri. morn. I am sorry to say that I forgot to include them in my AAR. Actually I forgot to write an AAR. Maybe I was not even there! Hmmm. Wierd. No I am quite sure I was there. Green glass, the Admiral, Farina, naked "'lil" guy in the pond, Officers surrendering en mass, no wet plate artists, no bulk buys, no bulls h i t, good time. Yep I was there.

Please, don't forget the toll collectors and Lister [sic] bags!!

Got ilk?

[KathyBradford]

Once again, Elizabeth is being modest. She has written several articles that address a wide variety of issues, but these two are expecially appropriate to this topic.

In the first, she explains how to gently encourage people to understand and do things better.

"The Missionary Position: Proselytizing for Progression, or A Brief Guide to Encouraging Progression in “Civilian” Groups"
<http://elizabethstewartclarkandcompany.com/GAMC/GAMC3/LS/LS3/Missionary%20Position.pdf>

In the second, she presents a great financial case for doing things right from the start, rather than "making do" and replacing them later.

"The True Cost of Accuracy"
<http://elizabethstewartclarkandcompany.com/GAMC/GAMC3/LS/LS3/True%20Cost%20of%20Accuracy.pdf>

With a great sense of humor and a lot of common sense, she explains things well. Even for gentlemen who never thought they'd find something applicable for themselves, her articles are well worth the read.

See her website for more. It's a great place to spend a couple of days and a great resource all around. www.elizabethstewartclark.com

Thanks Elizabeth!

[Miss Dixie]

"Mainstreamer Mentality"? That expression alone would irritate me enough that I would not be inclined to listen to anything that person had to say,whatever happened to "live and let live"? How would you define "mainstreamer mentality" ? Someone that doesn't believe the way that you believe, or won't take your word for something, not trying to pick a fight here, just some attitudes really bug me.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Bo,

Naked "lil" guy in the pond. If your talking about the CS side, then that was my friend Jeff McIntire. Jeff will do anything to draw attention to himself. Mac Daddy's the King ;)

[ElizabethClark]

"Mainstreamer Mentality"? That expression alone would irritate me enough that I would not be inclined to listen to anything that person had to say,whatever happened to "live and let live"? How would you define "mainstreamer mentality" ? Someone that doesn't believe the way that you believe, or won't take your word for something, not trying to pick a fight here, just some attitudes really bug me.

"Mainstream mentality" doesn't imply anything, actually. I can define a Progressive mentality: that kind of thinking questions everything, and won't take *my* word for things. That kind of thinking asks "What was done, and how can I do it? What was thought, and how can I get that across in my impression?"

I think you may have misunderstood what I said, though... I don't walk around preaching. I like going to the occasional "battle & ball" (mainstream, if you define mainstream as being something in the vast majority, which I do), just to meet people. If they ask me a specific question on something, and if it won't break any scenario to discuss the topic, then I'll share what I know. If they want to put that information into practice, I'll help them (if they want me to). If they don't care to use that information just now, or want to look into it more before using it, that's fine, too.

Now, having been a part of the "mainstream" (that vast Battle & Ball culture) for several years early on, I can tell you my thinking now is quite a bit different. At the beginning, I was playing theme dress-up, and camping in funny clothes. I looked like all the other reenactors, but not a lot like an actual person from the 1860s. I had little information on the time period. I was very much like 90% of those around me... and that's fairly mainstream, in the sense that all the fish are swimming the same direction.

Then I switched streams.

Rather than asking "what look pretty?", I started asking "What did they think looks pretty?" And that led to a whole lot of other questions... and I was roundly criticized by my friends for daring to question the stream we were all swimming in, and wanting out of the main stream, and into a tributary or three. No live and let live there! I wanted something different, and was trounced for it. Mostly, that was a reaction to the unknown--my friends knew they enjoyed things the way they did them, and didn't know if they would enjoy things the way I wanted to try them.

That's why when I meet or talk to others who are at that point that I was those years ago, I let them know how much fun I'm having now, asking a LOT of questions, and finding documented answers to them. I let them know how much easier it is to use period methods to make the clothes, how much easier it is to operate in an accuracy-based scenario, how much more fun it is to go to an event with a purpose, rather than having to justify my existence constantly.

The term "mainstream" isn't necessarily derogatory. Neither is the term progressive, hardcore, authentic, etc. I'll certainly live and let live! But if a person want to live differently, or is bored with what they've been doing, I'll certainly share what I've found... after I'm asked.

BIG difference in being there, offerring new opportunities, being friendly and polite, and setting a good "example" of a progressive mind-set, and ambushing people to criticize their stuff. The first is a positive experience. The latter is about the most rude thing in the world.

And we're talking about being encouraging to the hobby as a whole, so the latter has no place in it.

*****
Those small living history settings I wrote of earlier are a good opportunity to introduce people to a different experience. We're hard at work planning a Soldier's Aid Fair out here in Idaho. This will be a vastly different event than the folks are accustomed to. Most of the groups in the region would best be described as "mainstream", with just a few notable exceptions (Hi Doug! LOL) This event isn't being created as an "ultra-authentics only" thing... but since it's an unfamiliar scenario, it's a perfect opportunity to give lots of help by way of impression notes and standards, event guidelines that are easily enforced, etc.

It's not a "bridge event." It's just a different event! And, it's one with a decidedly civilian slant--there are very limited military roles, which will push the gents out of their comfort zone, and ask them to think of life just Before they enlisted or were drafted. It's a non-camping setting--there will be replica buildings to use. There won't be individual campfires--instead there will be meals served from the replica hotel/restaurant. There won't be a fashion show--instead, there will be women, men, and children working a functional Aid Fair, with plenty of time to eyeball one another's clothing. There won't be a single battle--but there may be a parade, enlistment and drill, political stumping, and a rally.

It's something so different from "the mainstream" out here that it's bound to catch a few eyes, and ruffle a few feathers. That's okay!! Those that participate will range from brand new, to old vets wanting to give it a go, to dedicated "progressives" who like to push the envelope a bit. (And trust me, this simple scenario pushes the envelope for the Pacific Northwest!!)

Anyhow--I'm getting windy again, aren't I? LOL I'll sign off now--and am looking forward to hearing others' suggestions on ways to encourage strong participation and morale in the hobby!

[SCTiger]

To Bo and evryone :0

Again I wouldn't advocate a false or sugar fed report on any event that fell apart completely. With any problem I would approach the parties responsible first, then I would post the highly objective AAR to our established cadre. If there are one or two minor problems, why trash the entire event?

In "selling" the c/p/h side to a mainstreamer (or anyone else) I sure wouldn't highlight the worst event. I would advise any candidate that we do have an occasional flop, but for the most part, I would reattend every c/p/h event I went to in 2003.

If I attend a mainstream event and it's the usual fare, I have no right to complain. I know what to expect. They do things their way, we do things our way. I am there to promote "our" way. I certainly wouldn't sugar coat the facts for this side of the hobby, I would find the candidate that isn't looking for an "easy" time, we are looking for folks who love history and a challenge.

In regards to "leading by example", you have to be a leader first. Then you find your followers.

I never meant the "blind eye" I had for the mainstream was a new rule for the c/p/h. Any hobby has to improve from within. We can't attend their mainstream events as campaigners (outsiders) and then trash it with a scathing AAR. The harder you hit the nail, the deeper it goes in the wood.
Bottom line: The only things we can do is "lead by example" and sell the choice events. We can't crticize/shame/laugh/ridicule anyone toward authenticity.
We can promote our good side.

[Jersey Devil]

Arron,

Grey was the way at TAG, yes I was on the CS side.

Hanging out your junk and swimmin in cold, green scummy water is certainly a way to attract attention. But the "shrinkage" is what made it so funny.

Cock-tail wieners anyone?

Fix 'em with Farina!

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Grey was the way at TAG, yes I was on the CS side.

I hear ya...... It felt good sweeping the field all weekend. Maybe that's why lil Mac took a bath....... It shrunk like a frightened turtle.

[Agate]

I here ya...... It felt good sweeping the field all weekend. Maybe that's why lil Mac took a bath....... It shrunk like a frightened turtle.


Aaron,

Sounds like he didn't have to worry about the turtles.

"Littler Mac"

:p

John

John Sarver
Cin. O.

I'm not sure I'm sorry I missed that.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

John,

Seeing Mac swimming in the pond was hilarious.

After a couple of minutes, Ben Grant threw a large onion into the pond and it startled Mac because he thought it was a fish jumping around near him. It was funny seeing him exit the pond immediately after that.

Mac leaves us with plenty of stories after each event I'm sure you're well aware of. ;)

Wish you could have been there.

Aaron
Cin. O.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Being the SINKS, I have been more patient with this thread...
By and large, supporters of the doctrine of "leading by example" and "missionary work" tend to be "newer" folks closer to the "entry" point of any given level of interest or application- while detractors tend to be veteran, experienced, cynical, jaded, burned-out, and veterans who used to believe in it an dhave the scars to prove it.
Looking at the successes, statistically, are we not talking about a handful of people "brought over to the Darkside?" Less than five 5%, whose personal desire to learn, grow, progress, and evolve moves them toward the H/A end of the CW Hobby spectrum- while the masses continue reenacting reenactments like alcoholics and drug addicts unwilling to change (which, in the end, is fine for that hobby).
And that 95% of the CW community is perfectly happy at whatever their level of Mental Picture happens to be, and do not want to be told what they do not want to hear.

As newer folks migrate to this Forum, we are seeing the same cliches and trite expressions repeat and repeated. This topic has been discussed here over and over, in the past few years.

Thanks all for sharing their thoughts and ideas, but some of this has gotten
cliche-filled, worn, and in some cases juvenile- all beneath the higher goals we would hope for this Forum.
Please consider which Forum you are posting on.
Thanks.

I am locking this thread before the next Flame War..

The only person you can change is only yourself.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[SCTiger]

:mad:

Comrades:

After a long reflection on the 2003 season, the up's and down's of the hobby and the various conflicts on any given forum, I have arrived at this conclusion. This biggest roadblock to authenticity is not:

1. A lack of authentic sutlers or affordable gear.
2. A lack of living history programs or events.
3. A lack of research or documents.
4. A lack of leaders, people or organizations.
5. A lack of interest by participants
6. A lack of support by nonreenactors.
7. A lack of online forums or communication.
8. A lack of real estate.

The single greatest roadblock to authenticity is simply the anti-progressive and negative attitudes that infiltrates our hobby. I am not "ego hunting" on this thread or sharpshooting any one personality. There are some Titanic egos around our camps, but most of the drama centers around personality clashes and rarely concerns real issues on authenticity. Drama Kings/Queens are a given.

It could be a farb that doesn't want to give up his camoflauge hunting boots, because "the $100 brogans are too much and uncomfortable" to the know-it-all malcontent that can't engage in a good discussion on equipment without listening to or allowing others to voice their opinion. If that doesn't work then it degenrates to name-calling and other juvenile tactics. Both types have the same disease; no one can tell them anything and they will argue their point to oblivion.

There is really two modes, authentic and garbage, right and wrong. There is no middle ground on this. You can call me all the bad names in the universe, make fun of my looks or insult my bloodline and proclaim that I am a two legged mule, none of that matters. When somone makes a point that I am doing something incorrectly, I listen to what they have to say. If they are right, then I have no argument and I will ask for further information. If the person is a well recognized expert in the field of study, I would be more inclined to listen without being defensive.

Let's suppose that 1,000 good attitudes showed up to a normal farbfest and for some reason the bad attitudes stayed home because there was a bad weather report. Their only goal is high authenticity and they commence to help each other with total cooperation. They go over everything and agree on the changes and standards needed. The result would be the most authentic event in the history of reenacting, even though it wasn't planned or sought after by the organizers. Authenticity comes from the good attitudes of the reenactors.

By the same token, a organizer plans an EBUFU event and for some unknown reason only the worst, argumentative, stubborn, ego-maniacs show up and do everything but, reenact history. Nothing goes as planned and all of the participants spend their time making fun of each other as they begin to act like a bunch of rich Saudi Princes at a beach party. No new knowledge is gained and several blood feuds emerge over stupid conversations that could be resloved with a mininmal of research and some adult supervision. No solid progress is made. That scenario isn't that far fetched. I am sure many of you have been to something similar to that.

Don't take me the wrong way, 90 percent of the folks in the c/p/h are well informed, very personable and eager to learn or teach. I enjoyed all of the events I attend last year. On the mainstream side there are plenty of good attitudes, but there is a large percentage of folks who don't care or just don't know enough. We can preach all day long to a farb, but unless the attitude changes it's like arguing with a fool.

When we fashion any future events, maybe the first required pieces of equipment should be a thick skin and good attitude. For new recruits I would seek a good attitude and a willingness to learn over any other attributes.

Just an op-ed.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I think you nailed it square on the head, but I have one thing to add.

Everybody in this hobby, farbs and campaigners alike, is into it for a different reason. Some guys are into the fire arms drill or tactics. Some guys are into the campaign lifestyle and uniforms and equipment, while others want to get away from the wife and kids, go out with the boys and drink cheep beer out of the can around the campfire.

I try not to bash or make fun of farbs, and I also do not try to change them. I find than being friendly and leading by example is the best way to go.

[tomarch]

Roger that Bob. When I first started in the hobby, I was in a company of guys who "were all green alike". We were all farbs of the worst sort starting out, but we had a large percentage of guys with good attitudes and only a couple of the bad. The result? Those of us who wanted to advance, kept getting better and better and the few bad apples stayed put and are at the same level today after17 years (and now far,far away from the rest of us... )

[JimKindred]

Greg,

The problems you have identified have been around since I started reenacting in 1975 and unfortunately I believe are just the nature of the beast. We have made great strides in equipment and uniforms but the average reenactor has remainded the same.

I suppose this line from the Last of the Mohicans sums it up best.

"Chingachgook told me, Don't try to understand them; and don't try to make them understand you. For they are a breed apart and make no sense."

:)

[Hiram325]

I was very active in reenacting from 1984-1993 and was out of the life for the last 10 years. The reasons for that are not material to my current situation, which is that I'm going to come back in. I disposed of nearly every piece of gear I owned, so I'm starting from scratch, as it were. my question is this: What are currently the best sources for uniforms, accouterments, weapons, camp gear, etc? When I was part of this thing of ours in the past, Jarnigan, Quartermaster Shop, F. Burgess, and a few others I cannot recall were where the well equipped authentic equipped himself. Also, this time I'm only doing two impressions, that of Confederate infantryman and Federal infantryman. I never had a problem switching sides, so to speak, I have documented ancestors who fought on both sides. Anyway, advice and pointers from those currently active are most welcome. I have no preconcieved notions of what constitutes "hardcore" or "mainstreamer", I just want to purchase the best I can afford, and get back into one of the most enjoyable pastimes I've ever experienced. One other thing, our kids are now grown and gone, so my wife will be joining me in the field for the first time, in as authentic a way as may be possible. Any pointers about female items would also be most welcome. Thanks very much, I.S. Baker

I.S. - I moved your question here because the Feedback section is for posts commending specifically on the website. Also, you need to sign your full name to all posts. - Mike Chapman moderator

[1stSgt9La]

Dear Sir,
Glad to hear your getting back into the hobby! As far as recommendations go for where to get your gear, check out the links page on this website, any of the people under vendors are great sources to get you restarted on the right path. I highly recommend C.J. Daley, Jersey Skillet Licker, and Missouri Boot and Shoe for uniforms and accouderments (both Federal and Confederate). I also recommend Orchard Hill Sutlery as a general line for things like personal items and Family Heirloom Weavers for things like Shirts and Blankets. I have ordered goods from all these places and have been greatly satisfied with the results (still waiting on the Missouri Boot and Shoe stuff though). Like I said though all the vendors on this site are great. As far as weapons go there are two sources on this site however I have not purchased from them so I really can't say. I hope this gives you at least some advice, I'm sure there will be more posts coming to give you some more info. Best of Luck!


Respectfully,
Patrick Hilt
1st Sgt. 9th Louisiana
Volunteer Infantry Company E
Miliken Bend Guards

[BishopLynch]

Robert
Here are a few sites to get you started.

Charlie Childs : www.crchilds.com
Pat Kline: www.Familyheirloomweavers.com
Brian Merrick: www.cornerclothiers.com
Mike McComas: www.confederate-tailor.com
C J Daley: www.cjdaley.com
Jersey Skillet Licker: www.skilletlicker.com
Tim Welch: www.Ldhaning.com
Bob Serio: www.missouribootandshoe.com
Ben Tart: www.bentart.com
Tim Bender: www.benderhats.com

This should get the ball rolling. Keep in mind there are quite a few others, but these will be a good start.

[SCTiger]

Mr. Baker:

Where do you live? Also what level of authenticity are you looking for? Sounds like you have a great attitude so welcome back. Email me or any of the AC moderators with questions if you are unsure. The sharks and bears are extremely hungry and will bite at any mention of non-authentic reenacting. So avoid the pitfalls and the fresh meat experience. :eek: Email is the way to go for the retread or the c/p/h newbie.

Greg "Cousin It" Deese
ga_deese@yahoo.com

[flattop32355]

*Sigh*

I realize that the AC forum is specifically for the progressive/harcore/campaigner crowd, and I have no problem with that. As a basic mainstreamer who just started reenacting six months ago, I come here to learn and occasionally contribute what I can in the discussions.

Would it be at all possible to please stop equating the terms "farb" and "mainstreamer" as synonymous? One is a derogatory term. The other expresses a view of how far down the trail someone's impression has come. To me, they are totally different terms.

Please keep in mind that the goal of many p/h/c folks is to make accurate impressions the norm for the hobby, in effect turning yourselves, at that point, into (shudder!) the mainstreamers of the hobby. So please tread lightly when abusing such terminology, as you may well be wishing it upon yourselves at some future time.

I wish to issue a gentle challenge to each p/h/c here who happens to run across me at an event, no matter where or when: Come up to me and say hello. Inspect my kit and accoutrements. Let me know where you believe they are all-wrong, decent, pretty good and excellent. Comment on how I performed in drill, in the camp and in the field. Being a TUG (tubby, unbearded guy; pun intended), I know I need to loose the weight, but that will take some time. And realize that, beyond the reenactments, my services are being offered to schools, scouts, etc. to further the historical education of adults and children. And I do it well.

I am not an idiot, a moron, or a malcontent. I am not a farb. I am a mainstreamer civil war reenactor, proud to be a part of my unit whether it be on campaign or representing the era's soldiers at the most unaccurate event on record so that someone can catch a glimpse of what those men were like. I respectfully submit that I do not deserve to be mocked.

[SCTiger]

Bernard:

A. No one was mocking you. If my thread had resembles another discussion, its merely coincidental.

B. All mainstreamers are not farbs. A mainstreamer with the right "attitude" be welcomed to any authentic event if he/she wanted to learn. Re-read my post.

C. So what was the purpose of your post? Did you post on the right board?

No one was calling anyone a moron, malcontent, TUG, fat, farb etc. If you feel slighted I am so sorry. It' a discussion, not an indictment.


Greg Deese

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

I have been involved in the scouting program for over 15 years now. I have found in that program the key is attitude. A couple good attitudes and few good "people" sometimes goes a very long way. Whether that attitude is in planning quality events or putting authentic impressions together. It carries over even to "fresh fish". If the standard is quality gear and a good time...then the pressure is off the newbies to buy crap. My unit has done a great service to me in not pressuring me to get gear, and encouraging me to buy the right stuff the first time. Having a set unit willing to loan gear for events helps alot. ATTITUDE is key, and in the end we all need to be firm in our reasons for being out on the field.

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Bernard

Based on everything you have said, I would say you are a "progressive". The "mainstream" is the exact same as it was when I sarted in this hobby as dismounted cav in 1989, and it will be the exact same when I retire from this hobby.

I kind of look at the mainstream and people that are progressives (IMO we are all progressives) as Chevy or Ford people or Democrats and Republicans. One may think the other is wrong or right but infact they are different sides of the same coin.

I would not be caught dead swilling moonshine at a ball or Blastin a dammed Yank in some county park, but there are people out there that would not pay over $60 for a sackcoat, sleep in the rain, or think Firper is goofy. To each there own.

[RyanBWeddle]

Complacency and a unwillingness to improve. That is the true roadblock(reenactors or progressives/authentics alike.)

So in the end, the biggest roadblock to authenticity is: yourself. Only you can improve.

I've said it hundreds of times - You can't save the hobby, you can only save yourself.

[Hiram325]

Pards: Thanks for the prompt replies to my post, if this first day is any indication of the volume of replies to come, I should have plenty of current information to guide me. In answer to the 1st Sgt's question, I live in So. Florida, so I think units of any authenticity level are going to be few and far between in my area. I would be willing to join a unit from out of the area if there are units that would have a member from out of their home area, or I would be willing to start a new Company of an existing unit, if necessary. As far as the level of authenticity I wish to pursue, I want the most authentic uniforms and gear I can afford. I was not a farb back then, I have no intention of being one now. Are Jarnigan and The Quartermaster Shop considered unauthentic nowadays? Just asking, back in '84 when I first got started, they were both highly regarded. I appreciate the help and guidance, it is my intention to field a first class impression.
Isaac Shelby Baker IV

[Hiram325]

My apology to the 1st Sgt, it was Mr. Deese who inquired as to my location.
Isaac Shelby Baker IV (Ike)

[JimKindred]

Ike,

I sent you a private message with some suggestions regarding your gear and uniform. You can access it under the welcome by your name at the top right corner of the page.

[flattop32355]

A. No one was mocking you. If my thread had resembles another discussion, its merely coincidental.
B. All mainstreamers are not farbs.
C. So what was the purpose of your post? Did you post on the right board?
D. It' a discussion, not an indictment.
Greg Deese

For clarity, point by point:

D: It is interesting that you took my response in the same fashion as you believed I took yours; as a possible attack. I assure you, I did not do so to yours, as I also did not aim mine at you, but simply became distressed at the tone which seemed to me to be progressing with successive posts. In fact, in making my response, I was trying carefully to avoid that very thing by couching my words in relatively polite terms (ie, "gently challenge"). Apparently, I failed in the effort. Had I felt any hardness towards a given poster, the proper place to discuss would be in a private message, off the board. I merely wished to aim the discussion from my own side of the heap, that of a more mainstream reenactor.
C: Yup, right spot. See also D.
B: I agree, but that was not the "feel" I was getting from the posts above mine. A possible misinterpretation on my part, but again, one I sometimes sense here and on other forums.
A: Again, merely part of the discussion to somewhat forcefully state my belief that I, nor many mainstreamers, is inferior to any other reenactor, even if some aspect of my present impression has not progressed down the road as far as some others.

There is a great difference between the "farb" we all smile and shake our heads at with the polyester uniform and portable refridgerator in his wall tent, and that great swarming mass of plain, old booger-head mainstream folk. Robert E. Lee may have been a great general and worthy of praise, but he was nothing without that mass of boys at the bottom of the heap. We're ALL important to this hobby, mainstream and p/h/c alike, and generally pointed in the same direction.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I think we are all Farbs. There are those of us that stagnate and decide were they are is comfortable or good enough, and those of us that try to do the best with what we know and push the hobby forward.

[JohnnyReb42k]

I think the biggest road block is money. At least that is what is holding me back. I am a college student, and that takes away most of my funding. We all strive to be as authentic as we can be. And the most authentic stuff is very expensive. Some of us don't have $350 to spend on a ************ knapsack. Some may say we could save up and get that. Maybe once you have everything you need, then you can upgrade to the top of the line stuff (ie-************). Until then, get the most authentic kit for your money.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Joshua

I was in your shoes once and I can tell you, just because it is expensive, does not mean it is the best you can get. Make connections do carefull research and do the best you can with what you can. It may mean that you have to limit yourself to one impression. I did only western Federal for years due to finances. Whatever you do do it the best you can.

[SCTiger]

For clarity, point by point:

D We're ALL important to this hobby, mainstream and p/h/c alike, and generally pointed in the same direction.

Complacency and a unwillingness to improve. That is the true roadblock(reenactors or progressives/authentics alike.) -Ryan Weddle

Bernard: I must disagree by using Ryan's excellent quote. I would love to believe that every reenactor wanted to improve, however; from my own field observation, there is a vast majority of reenactors who just don't give a hoot.
It's more than equipment or uniforms, it's a mindset. I would like to pruchase a $500 handsewn overcoat, but I have limitations as does everyone, but I still want one, so I am waiting for that used $200 coat (fat chance) or I may order a kit and make one (not likely), so we all have limitations, but we all have a desire to improve. The definition of a farb is "unwillingness to improve", bingo. I might add cooperation as well.

You can also drop the illusion that every reenactor is going to gather like the tribes of Israel and will immediately adopt the "Creed of the Living Historian" or the "Campaigners Manifesto" as their guiding light. Not in my lifetime.
Everyone isn't valuable to the hobby, I am sorry to report, some of them actually do more damage, misrepresent history and are recalcitrant about it.

[SCTiger]

Thanks Ike:

Looks like your off on the right foot, good to have a legacy man such as your self back in the field. Look folks somebody actually reentered the hobby the right way, there is hope after all! See you in the field Ike!

Greg Deese

[srmitchell]

I think the biggest road block is money. At least that is what is holding me back. I am a college student, and that takes away most of my funding. We all strive to be as authentic as we can be. And the most authentic stuff is very expensive. Some of us don't have $350 to spend on a ************ knapsack. Some may say we could save up and get that. Maybe once you have everything you need, then you can upgrade to the top of the line stuff (ie-************). Until then, get the most authentic kit for your money.
Yes, money is part of it,
but once again it's not that simple. You can hand any guy off the street the right gear. That won't make him correct. It's in how you wear it, your knowledge of the era (which we're all still learning), and how you carry yourself. I have to agree with Ryan. It's in the attitude. I'm glad to see so many that are striving for authenticity. (myself included) But no, all of us are not. All of us never will be.

From Flattop32355:
"Again, merely part of the discussion to somewhat forcefully state my belief that I, nor many mainstreamers, is inferior to any other reenactor, even if some aspect of my present impression has not progressed down the road as far as some others."
Sir,
So long as you are progressing, then I agree it may all be different shades of the same eventual color. However, I hold that many mainstreamers are not in any state of progression. This gets tricky because you are inferring to others eventual intentions, and I can only reply by generalization of what I can see. In this case, both of us can discuss till we're blue in the face and never achieve anything for want of solid evidence.
My question is this, and please sir I mean no offense to you or anyone on the board. If you break down the word re-enact. It means basically to re-do something that once was. Your are attempting to recreate a historical occurence. So if Joe Blow 're-enactor' is sitting in front of a wall tent, with his wife and kids fussing about while he cooks on his cast iron camp equipments, then what exactly is he re-enacting??? Even if Joe and Bob have a wedge or "A" tent with two men in it on cots, what are they re-living? What historical occurence are they re-creating?
I understand that not everyone can do campaign. I understand that some people will not leave the wife and kids, and some people want a wall tent.
Does this make them inferior as human beings? No. But are thier impressions and representation of the life of a civil war soldier inferior to the impressions of those men who have done the research, suffered on the march, slept in the cold and rain, and done everything possible to bring an accurate picture of this era to the public?
Yes sir, I believe they are.
Joe and Bob are great guys, and they have thier hobby. Quite a few of us started out there with them, and still keep in touch with them as friends.
However, if what they do is correct or on an equal par with historical evidence, then there would have never been a reason for anyone to have progressed at all. This very forum would not exist.
Any attempt to compare the two hobbies as one in the same, is a farce. One attempts through research and documentation to closely replicate all aspects (that can be with any accuracy) of the civil war years and the citizens that found themselves both in, and trapped between, the armies that fought it.
What are Joe and Bob really doing?
Respectfully,

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Additude trumps money problems every time. Here is a photo of the AOP on the 1st Red River campaign in 1994. Every guy in this photo is wearing a uniform from what today would be considered a substandard vendor.

http://img16.photobucket.com/albums/v48/hireddutchcutthroat/Four/scan.jpg

[Skeet]

Pards, I don't know about you fellas, that is the same reaction I get at an event even critquing a mainstreamer. I will never tread lightly on this subject! Here is my defintion of a farb, a person who knows their impression is wrong and doesn't care! Dan Morgan 10th Va (IVR)

[SCTiger]

Robert And Stephen:

Thanks for the reponses. Robert that's a great picture and really proves the point.

Under the "links" butttons and the Articles, one will find articles on "Progreesing on a Budget" by Jim Butler and Paul's article "For the begining reenactor, Before you buy a thing!" No really expects anyone to buy the top of the line stuff first

Actually things got cheaper for me on the campaign side. I didn't have to buy a 4x4 pickup and a trailer just to bring my gear into camp. No coolers, stoves, tents, bagpipes, cots, 40 pounds of iron cookware, ammunition boxes to hide everything in etc. I find it amusing that some folks will scoff at spending $190 on a good jacket will spend $300 on a bad reproduction wall tent. Nor do I have to spend 2 hours disassembling everything after the event.

Now I park the car, slide on my knapsack and accouterments, grab the rifle and hat and I am there.

Good question: How much would it cost today to accurately outfit a infantryman with a basic issue, sans overcoat and shelter-half? With defarbed weapon $1900? Paul quoted $1500 in 1999. I know some guys that spend that much on a set of premium golf clubs, more than that on a hunting rifle or a bass boat. How much to get started in paint ball?

How much plasma or pizza's deliveries would a disaffected college student have to sell to attain this :)? (hey I have been there). Actually a paint ball tournament between the various AC forum folks would be a real fun event.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Good question: How much would it cost today to accurately outfit a infantryman with a basic issue, sans overcoat and shelter-half. With defarbed weapon, $1900? Paul quoted $1500 in 1999. I know some guys that spend that much on a set of premium golf clubs, more than that on a hunting rifle or a bass boat. How much to get started in paint ball?


I really dont think we spend any more than any other hobby. If you are into golf, fishing, cars ect, you are going to spend at least $2000.

I have always thought that you can put a farb in all original gear, and he would still look like a farb. If you will take any one with the right mindset and put them in moderate kit, he will still look like he walked out of a period image.

[Hank Trent]

It's been my experience that most people will encourage and support improvement in accuracy up to a certain point. When a newbie who's below that point approaches them, the illusion is that they're boundlessly enthusiastic about historical accuracy and doing it as right as possible or practical. That's my favorite part of being with other reenactors.

But once you hope to see improvement beyond their comfort level, all the support ends.

Doesn't matter what the level is, whether it's a farbfest or EBUFU event, if you cross that line, out come the same old excuses and in many cases outright hostility--it's what we enjoy, we've always done it that way, it doesn't bother *me* so why should it bother you?, if we didn't allow it our friends wouldn't come, that's just nitpicking, etc.

I've run across the exact same phenomenon among volunteer reenactors, museum living history people, and even non-reenactors who recreate historic environments, like botanists, historic reconstruction people, etc. Let me tell you about the botanist with the PhD who first bragged about the importance of accuracy to me because I was just a newbie to historic gardening, then began to attack me when I said it was inaccurate to grow a tomato variety developed in 1867 in an 1863 garden--did you know that "poetic license" allows a 10-year fudge period?

It seems every level of every group has a consensus of what's important for accuracy, and what's supposed to be overlooked, and you suggest improving the things that are supposed to be overlooked at your own risk. And I'm not talking about controversial research, I'm talking about fixable things that everyone who's involved acknowledges are less accurate than the alternative.

It's discouraging, but the only solution I've found is to walk away and find other more supportive people to be with.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[flattop32355]

Ahhhh...so much to say, so little time! :)

Attitude is more important than money (implication being that less-"perfect" kit on an involved reenactor is better than the most "accurate" kit on someone who doesn't care to work towards improvements in impression)...I would agree; then let's stop bellyaching and putting so much emphasis about gear, to the point where people are ridiculed if it ain't the high-priced spread. Pretty darn good is still pretty darn good.

Note that I make a strong distinction between farb and mainstream (my original point). Those that want to play at soldier and those that want to reimpress those soldiers' lives are two different animals. My belief is that mainstream wants to do a reasonable job of it. The other doesn't care. Don't confuse the two or lump them together.

Authentic vs accurate: T'ain't a one of us authentic. Can't be done. Accurate is another matter, and even there, we fail, unless we want to dodge real bullets, get real wounds, dysentery, lice, excrete into a slit trench, be away from your family for months/years at a time, etc. And you surely will have to march on foot to get to the reenactment of your choice; no driving. We can become reasonably accurate, but that's about as good as it gets. Haven't met a man yet that can't improve there, either.

The fella that may not seem to be improving today may yet improve tomorrow. My guess is that no one here shot a straight and steady path to the point they've attained; lots of jumps and starts.

IMHO, a p/h/c who spends most of his effort talking down to others, of ANY stage of accuracy, or infighting with other p/h/c's, is at least as distructive to the hobby as any farb born. The farb can be ignored; the jerk can't. Again, the importance of attitude...

It ain't two hobbies: mainstream and p/h/c. It's just two facings of the same sphere. And I respectfully submit it all has value. People who see either can learn something from both.

I don't support having coleman stoves and coolers in camp, nor any other sore-thumb items or activities. I also don't support the idea that if my roller buckle is 1/16 inch too wide, I'm a hopeless, unredeemable farb and should quit the hobby.

People who don't care are as troublesome as those who only care too much about the wrong things. I submit that many mainstreamers do not fall into the former, and that some p/h/c fall into the latter.

And, again, my point: Farb is not mainstream, and mainstream is not farb.

[SCTiger]

Again, without rehashing the entire thread. No one indicated that mainstreamers were farbs. I am not going to wrestle in a verbal tar pit with you on this.

A bad attitude (anywhere) was established as a the biggest roadblock to authenticity. We defined what that was.

Money is a problem for some, but isn't necessarily the greatest obstacle. There are ways to go authentic on a budget.

I would rather drag less gear around then more.

What money you do have is better spent on first rate equipment, but that alone won't buy you "authenticity."

Any mainstreamer that desires to improve their impression, no matter if they attend mainstream or EBUFU events, isn't a farb.

I believe that my thread has been generous and fair, it has also served its intended purpose.

Your reply consisted mostly of nonsense. Farbs and people with rotten attitudes do exist and I don't have to make a plaster cast, a 16mm movie or a scientific study to prove it. They may exist in both realms, but they are real.

So quit personalizing this discussion and get back on board. Otherwise Auf Weidersehn! :mad:

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

And, again, my point: Farb is not mainstream, and mainstream is not farb. I don't know about that.... The're both pretty farby to me!

I always thought if you're wearing sutler row uniforms, screwing up drill and attending cheesy circus atmosphere events, then you're a farb...

I know people will say: But Hog-eye, farbs are the guys who wear modern eyeglasses and wristwatches to events. Yeah, so, of course that's farby. But so is wearing a sack coat from "Fall Creek Sutler."

I don't care if you're sleeping under the stars, eating salt pork, and doing first person. If you don't have the correct uniform/gear then you're a farb or pretty darn close. Anybody can have the correct mindset or attitude. Having a great mindset or attitude plays a very big role don't get me wrong. But, if you don't have that "look" then nothing else really matters.

BTW, this post is not directed towards anyone on this forum.... Please don't take it the wrong way. This is the way I was taught and I'm just expressing my feelings as a hardcore living historian on a AUTHENTIC CW website.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I don't care if you're sleeping under the stars, eating salt pork, and doing first person. If you don't have the correct uniform/gear then you're a farb or pretty darn close. Anybody can have the correct mindset or attitude. Having a great mindset or attitude plays a very big role don't get me wrong. But, if you don't have that "look" then nothing else really matters.



Ive had plenty of Firper expirences blown by guys in A1 kits with really lousy attiudes.
You can have the best kit in the world, but if you do not have the right mindset you are a farb in jeancloth clothing.

[MissAnnaMae]

Ive had plenty of Firper expirences blown by guys in A1 kits with really lousy attiudes.
You can have the best kit in the world, but if you do not have the right mindset you are a farb in jeancloth clothing.

And on the flip side...I've had some of the best firper experiences with gals wearing mainstream clothing and modern hairdos. I attended a formal dinner this past Christmas sponsored by a mainstream (by some standards) unit. Not everyone was dressed to "our" standards but guess what?? Some of those clothing "farbs" pulled off the best firper scenarios I've seen in a long time. I found it easier than one would expect to ignore the cabbage rose dress and bangs and focus on the fact there was some really good period conversation going on. Sometimes folks get too hung up on the gear and in the meantime, ruin their own magic moments...

[Miche_Todd]

Another issue that I myself have encountered in some is the unwillingness to accept the fact that one must be in the hobby for years to be a progressive. I know people that have been in the hobby for a year that are more progressive than those that have been in LH for 10 years or more. It is attitude and willingness to learn and accept the fact that we don't know everything there is to know about the era that are the earmarks of a true progressive. I, personally will never stop in my pursuit of what is the most period correct form of clothing, firper etc. I admit that I am a newbie to the EBUFU side of the hobby, but I am so eager to learn and take part. I am learning as are we all.

[jimmip]

<strike>I highly recommend Jarnagin. I have purchased many of his items, via a fellow reenactor, and like the quality of his work.</strike>

Jim, as Aaron says below, several vendors have surpassed Jarnagin's quality in uniforms and accountrements.

Jim Pribula

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

I highly recommend Jarnagin. I have purchased many of his items, via a fellow reenactor, and like the quality of his work. Jim,
You're kidding us right? What items appealed to you? Please don't say uniforms.....

Isaac,

This hobby has taken leaps and bounds since 1984. Jarnagin is no longer the "go to man" like he was back in the early 80's. (I've been in this hobby since the early 80's)

Gregory Randazzo has provided you with a list of authentic vendors which you should use if you want to do things the right way. This forum also has a "buy, sell and trade" section where you can pick up used authentic uniforms/gear at a cheaper price.

Welcome back, and good luck Isaac,

Hog-eye man

[Slouches_N_Slovens]

Issac,

In addition to the other quality vendors listed previously, you may want to check out the uniforms made by Dan Wambaugh. His stuff is of excellent quality.
His business is named W, W, and Company, but he is currently having problems with his web service provider. He has a temporary site at: http://danwambaugh.tripod.com/

[John Newland]

Issac:

Patrick Hilt, Gary Randazzo et all have the right of it. Jarnigan, etc. were state of the art some years ago...but things have evolved. So the vendors Patrick and Gary list are the ones I suggest do business with.

Researched their stuff carefully using other resources and have done business with most of them. Other than Missouri Boot and Shoe being too slow for me to stick with, been entirely satisfied.

It is (for understandable reasons) sometimes tough to convince some of the vets who have done business with other, earlier cutting-edge companies and inedividuals to understand that the state of the art is evolving steadily over time. And it is something to keep in mind ourselves.

Welcome back, Pard. Hope to meet you down the, long, dusty road.

-Best
John Newland

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

How many of us tailor our impressions to specific events? Is this something we should strive for? Or should we stick with a generic impression? I am not talking about Zauves...but other specific units for specific engagements....thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul B. Boulden Jr.

RAH VA MIL '04

Hallo Herr Paul! Thank you for your question. It is the nature of the "more authentic" and EBUFU functions to portray different units at different "battles." Although not for everyone, for many, it is the "state of the art" for CW living history. Ideally, the more "generic" one can be in their impression(s), the easier it is to particpate in these events without having a closet or three full of clothing and gear for "early, mid, and late War.. East and West, etc, etc" impressions. I believe your question would be better suited for other fora, where members are just progressing to the more "authentic" side of things, and are thinking about taking the next "evolutionary or personal developmental step," rather than on the AC Forum where such concepts are perhaps "part and parcel," if not a standard. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, Moderator

[Clark Badgett]

Ok, start by getting a very good generic impression. Once you have gotten it to a high level of accuracy, then start to tailor it to specific events, ie, early, late war, fresh issue, very ragged look etc. Now let me state this here, do not artificially age your stuff, wear it as your generic impression until it get worns then replace it with new stuff, and you have solved that part of "tailoring" Early and late stuff you can choose, but keep it documented.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Yes! Or I will not attend the event. The impressions that I am comfortable to attend EFUBU events with are as generic as I feel possible.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Paul

I recomend finding an impression that you enjoy (Say trans Miss Fed or what ever) and doing it to the best you can do it, and then go from there.

[manevin]

Ooops.

Looks like I brought up a similar issue on another thread.

Michael Nevin

[manevin]

What's "EFUBU"?

Michael Nevin

[Justin Runyon]

"EBUFU" is an abbreviation of the term "Events By Us, For Us" It was developed by campaign oriented persons as a way to seperate campaign oriented events with higher authenticity standards from more mainstream events.

[texandrummer61]

I think the biggest roadblock to authenticity is simply the ever proggresing
amount of resources. Half the time, when you get a jacket, new evidence
will spot flaws. Simply most of our wallets cannot account for the always
changing discoveries. All we can do is to go with the flow, and try to correct
the flaws as quickly as we can when they appear. Also, some people are not
willing to look for flaws, keeping them behind the times. There in lies the problem- the uncommitted. Anyone who is committed is a progressive, nothing less.

Ian Broadhead

[BHoover]

Again, without rehashing the entire thread. No one indicated that mainstreamers were farbs. I am not going to wrestle in a verbal tar pit with you on this.

Playing devil's advocate here, actually the comparison was made, fairly early on in the discussion.

<i>" Everybody in this hobby, farbs and campaigners alike, ..."</i>

Seems to be setting up a fairly distinct dichotomy.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Mr Hoover

It is indeed a hobby, but I feel that our element of the hobby derives its greatest pleasure finding the perfect "Civil War moment". All we have is authenticity, education, and preservation, otherwise were are a bunch of goofballs sweating in a field wearing funny clothes...just like the SCA or Renfaire.

(I know you were playing devils advocate :wink_smil )

[BHoover]

(I know you were playing devils advocate :wink_smil )

And I should point out that I never said I disagree with you... :)

I suppose that's what I get for being a professional mathematician... way to nitpicky for public consumption! -vbg-

[hireddutchcutthroat]

And I should point out that I never said I disagree with you... :)

I suppose that's what I get for being a professional mathematician... way to nitpicky for public consumption! -vbg-

I am a Tool and Die maker(4th generation last of my breed), I figure out mathematicians all day :D

[SCTiger]

Comrades:

I had a intereresting conversation with another reenactor, at a mainstream event this month. Hal, (not his real name) is a progressive reenactor that is suffering from acute burn-out while coping with everything he sees at the traditional events. He enforces authenticity is his group and sets a great example. He is very frustrated with the way things are ran. He became very upset when one of the mainstream units beside him retained their gray uniforms while portraying Yankees. The result was gray clad yankees fighting gray clad Confederates in a late war situation.

I invited him to some of the c/p/h events, I believe he would enjoy our events and he would find like minded people that would appreciate his devotion to authenticity. Speaking of burn out, how do you avoid these symptoms?
Ripped from a variety of sports and work psych sites.

Avoiding Burnout

What is Burnout?

Burnout occurs where people who have previously been highly committed to a sport/hobby loses interest and motivation.

Typically it will occur in hard working, hard training, hard driven people, who become emotionally, psychologically or physically exhausted. This can occur where:

you find it difficult to say 'no' to additional commitments or responsibilities
someone has been under intense and sustained pressure for some time
a perfectionist does not delegate
someone is trying to achieve too much
someone has been giving too much emotional support for too long

Often it will express itself in a reduction in motivation, volume and quality of performance, or in dissatisfaction with or departure from the sport altogether.
Symptoms of Burnout

Burnout will normally occur slowly, over a long period of time. It may express itself physically or mentally. Symptoms of burnout are shown below:

Physical Burnout

Feelings of intense fatigue
Vulnerability to viral infection (explains a lot)
Immune breakdown

Mental Burnout

Feeling of lack of control over commitments
An incorrect belief that you are accomplishing less
A growing tendency to think negatively (like seeing late war yankees fight in gray)
Loss of a sense of purpose and energy
Increasing detachment from relationships that causes conflict and stress, adding to burn-out


Avoiding Burnout

If you are working and performing hard, then you should take great care not to burnout.

You can avoid physical burnout by keeping life fun: intense, difficult work sessions that significantly improve technique should be mixed with lighter, enjoyable sessions that use new skills to good advantage. A relatively slow build-up from off-seasons can be adopted so that your body is not put under excessive stress. You should respect feelings of intense physical fatigue and rest appropriately.

Similarly, you can avoid mental burnout by ensuring that the sport remains fun: there is a limit to your mental energy that you should respect. As you get better at a sport, people will want more and more of your time, and will rely on you more and more. It is easy for commitments to get bigger and bigger: people tend to be quite happy to consume other peoples mental resources without worrying about the consequences. You must learn to say 'No' to commitments that you do not want to take on - otherwise you will be in severe danger of burning out as you become unhappy with your situation. Involvement in sport must be fun, otherwise there is no point in doing it.
If you are in Danger of Burning Out...

If you feel that you are in danger of burning out, or are not enjoying your sport, the following points can help you correct the situation:

Re-evaluate your goals and prioritise them
Evaluate the demands placed on you and see how they fit in with your goals
Identify your ability to comfortably meet these demands.
If you are over-involved, reduce the commitments that are excessive
If people demand too much emotional energy, become more unapproachable and less sympathetic. Involve other people in a supportive role. You owe it to yourself to avoid being bled dry emotionally.
Learn stress management skills
Examine other areas in your life which are generating stress, such as work or family, and try to solve problems and reduce the stress
Get the support of your friends and family in reducing stress
Ensure that you are following a healthy lifestyle:

Get adequate sleep and rest to maintain your energy levels
Ensure that you are eating a healthy, balanced diet - a bad diet can make you ill or feel bad.
Get adequate regular aerobic exercise
Limit your caffeine and alcohol intake

Perhaps develop alternative activities such as a relaxing hobby to take your mind off problems
Acknowledge your own humanity: remember that you have a right to pleasure and a right to relaxation

Late Stages of Burn-Out

If you are in late stages of burn-out, feeling deeply demotivated and disenchanted with your sport, get help from a good psychologist.
If You Have Burned Out...

Do not worry. If you are so demotivated in your sport that for a time you do not want to continue it, then drop it for a while. If you come back later, you may find that you start to enjoy it again, and can take on only those commitments you want to.

You may, however, find that you have absolutely no interest in continuing with the sport. In this case it is best to drop it altogether. If you are the sort of person who has burned out, i.e. highly motivated and hard driving, then a complete change of direction may be appropriate - it is very likely that you will find another area in which you will excel. You will find that you are only demotivated and listless in the area in which you burned out.

The difference is that you will have already burned out once: next time you now know the signs to look for and the things to watch. You will be able to pace yourself, and control your energy much more effectively, ensuring that you operate at stress levels where you can give your optimum performance.


I feel that once I start using the word "must" in the palce of "like to" I am almost fried at that point. Luckliy I don't feel that yet. Anyone ever returned from the Land of Burnout?

:angry_smi

[ThehosGendar]

What timing! We were going over this is PSYCH-106 today. Seriously!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Anyone ever returned from the Land of Burnout?

YES!

And I am feeling these signs in my "other" hobby WW2. I am really thinking it is time I get back into WBTS like I used to. The whole reason I got into WW2 was to relieve stress from WBTS issues. Not that I do not love my WW2 pards, but I am "burning out on it".

[tomarch]

Try switching sides,theaters or branches of service. Most of what I've been doing was based on ANV, however I went to TAG last Oct. which was an AoT type event and well worth it!

Another thing I've tried is to find a nitch that you are drawn to and try to be the best you can be in it. (mine's being a working Topo Eng.a la Robt. K. Snedden)

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Try switching sides,theaters or branches of service. Most of what I've been doing was based on ANV, however I went to TAG last Oct. which was an AoT type event and well worth it!

Another thing I've tried is to find a nitch that you are drawn to and try to be the best you can be in it. (mine's being a working Topo Eng.a la Robt. K. Snedden)


Tom

You know that I have been all sides and all periods.

What now!?

[CaptainUCSB]

I started getting burned out badly in my last unit. Unfortunately, the politics in this hobby will get to you if the farbiness doesnt. I got burned out on trying to improve the unit and my impression and I wanted to do some other things but was being held back. Eventually when I was old enough I left and formed a new unit, and that unit is just starting to get a strong foothold...after the political adventures of California reenacting.

All of you Easterners would be amazed at the rumors "Friends" will spread about eachother out here. Its nice that they are finally stopping...sort of.

[Moonshine]

It seems most of the people responding to this topic are from the "Left Coast" where I think burn-out will just happen (eventually) like a wildfire in Oct. When you do something long and hard enough it's bound to happen.

As Tom says, try a new approach like changing sides or impressions. Too much of a static impression gets old.

My burn-out was cured when we had a good event to attend instead of the normal "show battles". The Oakley Tactical (www.oakleytactical.com) this April and last was a relief and you could once again feel like a TRUE living historian instead of the same old, same old. This event is a FUBU.

Hope this may help.

Jim Ross

[RyanBWeddle]

I also avoid it by steering clear as much as possible of anything remotely coming close to a 'battle' event. :sick: :sick: :sick:

I stick with NPS living histories, highly planned and selectively attended immersion events and educational events...

Oh yeah and I drink alot so that helps too to avoid burnout....

:beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum:

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Here's a suggestion to the authentic mess or individual burn-out:

Network with other hardcore units/messes around the country. See what's going on with other groups and maybe you'll find something different to attend every now and then. (Of course your kits would have to be up to par before you even begin to think about this.) :angry_smi

[TeamsterPhil]

I'm preparing for a talk on "How to become a reenactor" that will be given to a group of high school age youngsters. One of the handouts I am preparing is a list of the essential items you would need to obtain. Coincidentally, just a few weeks ago, I was engaged in adiscussion of the old adage the a Federal private could get outfitted with good quality gear for $1500. In composing this handout, I have discovered that this is no longer true. Buying quality goods from quality vendors, here is my list:

Sack coat - $180.00
Federal issue trousers - $180.00
forage cap - $85.00
brogans - $130.00
suspenders (optional) - $40.00
shirt - $75.00
socks - $10.00
drawers (optional) - $55.00
musket - $500.00
bayonet - $45.00
bayonet scabbard - $45.00
cartridge box w/sling - $120.00
cap box - $35.00
waist belt - $27.00
canteen -$85.00
haversack - $50.00
plate - $10.00
cup - $25.00
knife & fork - $10.00
blanket - $95.00
gum blanket - $50.00
shelter half (optional) - $95.00
knapsack (optional) - $170.00

TOTAL -- $2,117.00
without optional items -- $1,757.00

Did I miss anything? Is there something on there that shouldn't be there? I'd like to get some input before I finalize this list.

Phil Campbell

[paulcalloway]

Phil - looks like you might be right. I think you should note however ... as with anything if you shop it around you can find decent deals which will shave $20 here and #30 there. We're frequently offering Bully Buys to make it as affordable as possible. I know Daley, Hoffman, Houde and others put items up on special from time to time, so a patient and keen eye should find some deals.

Furthermore, the prices you've listed are all for brand new gear... but as the forums here show, there's a lot out there available to the "campaigner on a budget". Good gear, slightly used at fair prices. Lots of messes have gear for loan or sale as well which puts the buyer in the driver's seat, not having to purchase everything new, all at once.

[James Masson]

"Authentic vs accurate: T'ain't a one of us authentic. Can't be done. Accurate is another matter, and even there, we fail, unless we want to dodge real bullets, get real wounds, dysentery, lice, excrete into a slit trench, be away from your family for months/years at a time, etc. And you surely will have to march on foot to get to the reenactment of your choice; no driving. We can become reasonably accurate, but that's about as good as it gets. Haven't met a man yet that can't improve there, either."

I don't want to start an argument or turn the post off it's original heading but I have a problem with that statement. First, authentic, I totally agree with what was said, no one can be authentic. As far as accurate or correct goes, I do believe that you can be accurate. I don't think you have to dodge bullets or get lice to be accurate or correct; I would consider those things to go under "authentic". As for marching to events. Or we could ride boats and trains. Guys from Texas didn't walk all the way to Virginia. I agree that everyone has room for improvement, even the best progressive has room for improvement and I don't think there is anyone on this board that would argue that point.

[TeamsterPhil]

You're exactly right, Paul. I compiled this using the prices for new gear from reputable vendors that have a good track record (at least with me & my buddies). There are lots of dollar shaving measures that can be taken - used gear, "do it yourself" things like shirts & drawers - that can bring the total down quite a bit. And the loaner box has helped several new recruits in our mess totally avoid the "You mean I have to replace this with something better?" syndrome. I wish they'd all follow that advice.

Phil Campbell

[markj]

Hi,

As for me, I don't call gear "used"...I call it "aged and mellowed...." :wink_smil

Yours, &c., &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[58 lorenz]

I have been buying all my stuff since last fall,and I have easily spent this much,and probably much more, because I got much more expensive accouterments,and an original bayonet,among other things. And lately, I have decided I want "extras", like a Semancik Forage cap(to go with the Sekala one I have), a Daley overcoat, and several different models of canteen.Might be nice to have another blanket,too... and maybe another pair of brogans.... jeeez, it's an obsession.

Doug Price

[coffee boiler]

You could also include the great coat and dress uniform as optional items. And then there are all the miscellaneous items such as cleaning kits, pocket knife, sleeping cap, vest, hatchet, shovel, casey's, eye glasses, poke bags, extra shirts and shocks, musket wrench, musket sling, worm, housewife, wallet, extra blanket, etc., etc. But the most important rule to remember when buying all this, is never tell your wife how much your really spent on this hobby. :wink_smil

[JohnTaylorCW]

Remembering back 2 years to when I started out, I'd have to say that a very basic musket cleaning kit (patches, worm, oil vial and musket wrench) should be included amongst the basics. Found that I had acquired most everything else, but forgotten that! Um - Maybe $20?

John Taylor

[hireddutchcutthroat]

:martini_s I think that being on the Left Coast really has alot to do with Burnout. The reenacting community out here is small, and the progressive authentic element is tiny (and alot of that is Hardcools). The way events are set up with in an Alphabet soup of clubs and ALL of them do Eastern Theater 1863, and the events are all done on postage stamp county parks that look nothing like points east.

Needless to say the events are not exactly EFUBU, so I have taken to doing CA volunteer living history at various locations in the state with a small group of pards. And like Aaron said go back east once or twice a year to a really good NPS style event.

Oh yea and drinking alot helps as well :martini_s :martini_s :martini_s :martini_s :martini_s :martini_s :martini_s :martini_s :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum: :beer_yum:

[Johan Steele]

Hey now, the deal w/ the wife is the easy part. I got a Sharps, she got a baby. I got into CW re-enacting again... she got a house. Ok maybe that isn't quite the best way to go about it.

For what it's worth our unit has asked for donations to help outfit recruits, ideally young HS & College students. It's helped defray the heart attacks of parents somewhat.

And by us buying the gear and passing it onto the newbies we avoid someone naively getting suited out by the first fly by night sutler they meet.

[PrettyBoyDonovan]

This is a great post and it's really helped me out, but the total price may shock some people. Life as a high school/ college student is hard and getting a full kit may seem overwhelming.

Now I don't want to get ripped or anything but maybe you could add that there are other 'less expensive' items out there, and of course that you can add to your kit piece by piece.

One more thing: For those of us on a budget, would you more expierenced progresives agree to the idea of buying higher-end mainstream gear, and upgrading it as finances become more abundent?

[dusty27]

One more thing: For those of us on a budget, would you more expierenced progresives agree to the idea of buying higher-end mainstream gear, and upgrading it as finances become more abundent?

Andrew, I recently did a similar list comparing mainstream sutlers and our unit's approved sutler list and found that if you are vigilant on the "used" gear posts here on the A/C, you can get "correct" gear for nearly the same price as new mainstream equipment.

One other thing that many new people need to understand is that you don't need to buy every thing at the same time. Take your time, look around, ask your pards and borrow loaner gear. You should be able to get by until you can by your own gear.

[37NC]

don't forget to include gas to and from events, the price of powder,the cost of some of the events, I was a college student on a tight budget and for got about these costs. Gas is expensive now and driving to Va NC from PA can cost alot.



Sgt. Daniel Curran
37th NC Co A

[TeamsterPhil]

One other thing that many new people need to understand is that you don't need to buy every thing at the same time. Take your time, look around, ask your pards and borrow loaner gear. You should be able to get by until you can by your own gear.

Dusty,

You're exactly right. A couple of years ago, my mess got in 3 recruits at the same time. We were able to keep ALL THREE from having to buy any "less than quality" gear by judicious use of loaner gear.