Cavalry shotguns

[NC5thCav]

Does anyone know of any correct reproduction shotguns available that could be used for a Confederate immpresion? From what I have seen on ordanance reports as well as first person accounts, shotguns were one of the most popular arms for Confederate cavalry throughout the war, but seem to be under-represented today.

Derek Carpenter, NC

"First at Bethel, farthest at Gettysburg and Chickamauga, last at Appomatox"

[Johan Steele]

I think that depends upon whether you're doing early or late war... Forrests ordanance return showed only two shotguns in 1864... Literally almost every kind of carbine seemed present though as well as Enfields, Austrians etc. ammo in .52, .54,.56, .58... I would pity the ordanace officer.

THat said I'm not certain that I've seen a good repro muzzleloading shotgun... but originals can be had fairly inexpensivly and are often quite servicable. My father has purchased two excellent english made w/in the last five years and both are quite servicable. I've also run accross them often enough at gunshows to say it shouldn't be difficult to find one for less than $1000.

Good Luck

[Mike Ventura]

I agree. Most evidence, including returns, for Confederate forces show shotguns were used mostly early war. The Second Georgia Cavalry, for example was originally armed with shotguns and sabers (and, ironically, were not issued uniforms until May of 1864!).

In the early war days in the south, you fought with "...what you brung from home..." and shotguns were prevalent.

As tactics evolved, especially in the western theater, the shotgun became an anacronism due to its limited range. As Forrest and others developed the tactic of mounted infantry, the shotgun's range did not compare with that of the rifle-muskets carried by their federal opponents.

Mid to late war returns, ORs and anecdotal history after the war showed that most CS cavalry units so armed ditched the shotguns as soon as possible for "field appropriated" federal arms.

The following inspection report submitted by CS Colonel CC Jones regarding Wheeler's command in January and February, 1865 (as they shadowed Sherman's March through the Carolinas):

"ARMS
As a general rule, there is a great want of uniformity in the armament
of this command. The principal weapons in the hands of the men are the
long and short Enfield rifle, the Springfield musket, the Austrian
rifle, a variety of breech loading rifles, viz: the Spencer, the
Burnside, the Sharp, Maynard &c. and various kinds of pistols. Many if
not all of the breech loading rifles and pistols are captured arms. For
some of them, as the Spencer, there is a great difficulty in procuring
the requisite amount of ammunition, the supply now in the cartridge
boxes of the men and the ordnance train having been obtained exclusively
by capture...
...With such a variety of calibers, and in view of the fact that the
supply is at best but limited and uncertain, for at least some of the
guns mentioned, it becomes almost a matter of impossibility to secure at
all times the proper amount of ammunition...
...Many of the arms now in the hands of the men are claimed by them as
private property, having been secured by them by capture, purchase or
exchange...
...Captured arms are not turned over in very many respects as they
should be to the ordnance officer. Indifferent or heavy guns are
privately exchanged by the men upon the battlefield and elsewhere for
light carbines and other guns more suited to the fancy of the captor,
and thus where uniformity of armament existed, there occurs an
interpolation of guns of various calibers, descriptions and ranges.
...In this command there are a great many fair Spencer rifles and other
breech loading weapons of superior character for which ammunition might
be conveniently manufactured in our arsenals."

- - CC Jones, Col. CSA, February 1865

Ironically it seems that many men were unarmed (thus serving as horse holders) rather than being armed with even shotguns. One might infer that since the returns show no shotgun ammunition, that the shotgun became a well-made club in the best of circumstances during the mid to late war period.

There are some original period shotguns available from various resources - antiqueguns.com, gun shows, etc. I own one that I used for a Second Georgia impression at Perryville in 2001. A word of CAUTION - if you buy an original, I'd think twice about loading and firing it. Due to the construction methodology combined with the fact that the weapon is now 140+/- years old, it could literally blow up in your face!

My 2¢

[ButtermilkRanger]

I'd like to add a thougth here. When shotguns are used in the hobby, it seems almost universal with reeactors to use the sawed off or coach gun models. I know there is the example of the extreme short version in EoG, but I'm not sure I buy into the "they were all sawed off" theory. I'm more inclined to think that shotguns were probably left with long barrels. I think this may have been the norm simply because of the manner in which cavalry commanders (at least here in the west), were deploying their troops. As Mike mentioned, cavalry was being used largely as mounted Infantry. Maximum firepower on the ground would have been the preferred effect. Shotguns, because of their smoothbore definition, are not overly effective anyway. However, when you saw the barrel off to the point that you have a hand howitzer, I'd argue that your effectiveness would have been even more weakened. The longer the barrel, the better your range with certain types of ammunition.

So, if you are going to get a shotgun for early or even mid-war scenarios, I'd go with a regular length barrel and avoid the coach guns you see at places like Dixie. You can run across some good shotgun deals at gunbroker.com from time to time.

[Lone_Rebel87]

I live about 10 minutes from the dixie gun works in Union City Tenn. and they are currently carrying a long barreled I think about 33-36 in shotgun that is percussion but they get kinda expensive their..really high priced on some of their guns. :)

Jordan davis

[NC5thCav]

Thanks guys. I meant to say mid war, not late. The supply returns I saw were from mid to late 1863. The point about being used mostly as mounted infantry is well taken. Many resources I have seen lately show widespread use of infantry rifles. I also see, as stated in another thread here, that pistols were pretty scarce.

Derek Carpenter

"First at Bethel, farthest at Gettysburg and Chickamauga, last at Appomattox"

[T.Kern]

Thanks guys. I meat to say mid war, not late. The supply returns I saw were from mid to late 1863. The point about being used mostly as mounted infantry is well taken. Many resources I have seen lately show widespread use of infantry rifles. I also see, as stated in another thread here, that pistols were pretty scarce.

Derek Carpenter

First at Bethel, farthest at Gettysburg and Chickamauga, last at Appomattox


Often shotguns used during the war were long barrelled, loaded with buck and ball. Sometimes buckshot or just .69 ball, the ball has about the same range as a smooth bore musket. I believe (listed in some returns) a number of .69 cartridges are going for shotguns, as a number of sporting caps are also being issued and other evidence of these regiments having some. Hanse McNeil, of McNeils rangers, preferred to carry a shotgun loaded with buckshot in one barrel and ball in the other. I think they were more common later in the war than we have thought, though I still believe when a rifle was available they would upgrade. Below are some returns/ reports that speak of shotguns. From the OR's;



LYNCHBURG, May 26, 1861.
Col. R. S. GARNETT,
Adjutant-General Virginia Forces:
…four companies of cavalry here, one from Campbell, one from Bedford, one from Botetourt, and one from Franklin, and they are very fine companies. They are all armed with sabers, the Franklin company having indifferent sabers of an old pattern. It also brought down sixty-three flint-lock pistols of the old pattern. These companies are, I expect, the best mounted cavalry companies in the State, and if they could be efficiently armed they would render fine service. I have directed them to get all the double-barrel shotguns they could.... J. A. EARLY,[2.] Colonel of Volunteers.




QUARTERMASTER'S OFFICE, VIRGINIA VOLUNTEERS,
Staunton, Va., May 26, 1861.
[Governor LETCHER :]
MY DEAR SIR: I inclose you the letters...The Greenbrier Cavalry, a fine body of men, arrived to-day, and I send W. H. Peyton, esq., down to get army pistols, double-barrel shotguns, or single-barrel shotguns, to enable me to arm this company and send them at once to Grafton. I have nearly sabers enough\


…There are now eight companies of cavalry here, well mounted and in fine condition, but for the arms necessary for them, which are mostly wanting. Two companies are armed with double-barreled shotguns, and two more will soon have them. I wish that you would cause all the flint-lock pistols at the armory and all sabers that may be on hand to be sent here. If there are any rifles which would answer for cavalry I wish you would have them sent also.
Very respectfully,
J. A. EARLY,


ORDNANCE OFFICE,
Memphis, March 3, 1862.

Hon. J. P. BENJAMIN,
Secretary of War:
SIR: Requisitions are daily made upon me for pistols for cavalry service in this department, but I can now find none for sale at any point in the Confederacy. Many have been bought up by the infantry (officers and privates), and I respectfully suggest that you disarm the infantry and let the cavalry get the pistols now in the hands of the former.... Colonel Forrest, the most efficient cavalry officer in this department, informs me that the double-barrel shotgun is the best gun with which cavalry can be armed, and that at Fort Donelson one discharge of his shotguns, at close quarters, scattered 400 of the enemy whom three of our regiments had vainly tried to dislodge from the stronghold in a ravine.
Respectfully,
WM. RICHARDSON



HEADQUARTERS EIGHTH VIRGINIA CAVALRY,
Mercer Court-House, January 24, 1862.
General S. COOPER,
Adjutant-General, Richmond, Va.:
GENERAL: I telegraphed you... My force will be 500 cavalry, armed mostly with old shotguns, bowie knives, and a few long-range rifles and muskets, and about fifty Colt revolvers, and some sabers.
Col. Jenifer


HEADQUARTERS CAVALRY BRIGADE,
Camp on Kanawha, W. Va., September 19, 1862.
COLONEL: This command, consisting at that time of seven companies of the Eighth Virginia Cavalry...
…On taking possession of the town (Buckhannon,W.Va.) I found an immense supply of commissary and other stores, besides 5,000 stand of arms, and vast supplies of ordnance stores, clothing, &c. Many of my command were poorly armed, and all were at once supplied with Enfield and Harper's Ferry rifles, except a single company, which I permitted to keep its shot-guns for the purpose of heading a charge....

WINCHESTER, VA., August 29, 1862.
Major-General HALLECK,
General-in-Chief:
On the 27th I Started 6 of my men across the Blue Ridge, through Ashby's Gap. Had them armed with shot-guns, and chased them into the enemy's line with a cavalry force from here. They have just returned, and furnish the following, which may not be new, but which I fully rely on:
(tricky yanks, using shotguns to make the rebs think their southerners.)


CAPTAIN: The following is a report of a scout made by Lieut. F. Charles Hume, adjutant Thirty-second Battalion Virginia Cavalry:
…By this time, at a double-quick, Corporal Wooten, myself with one squad, reached the post, and met the relief picket re-enforced and returning. They discovered us at about 60 yards' distance, and I ordered a surrender. They replied by a shot, and I commanded the men to fire on them. Shot-guns proved insufficient, as far as I could judge, but I am well convinced that none of the 4 escaped unhurt.


HEADQUARTERS MOUNTED RIFLES,
Suffolk, Va., March 9, 1863.
SIR: I have the honor to submit the following report of a late reconnaissance at Smithfield, Blackwater, &c.:
…At our first fire, however, the enemy, whom we learned to be some 50 of Claiborne's Confederate cavalry (Seventh Regiment), turned and fled ...Major Wheelan succeeded, however, in capturing four men and horses, with several rifles, shotguns, &c., which the enemy had thrown away in their flight. …
have the honor to remain, general, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
CHARLES C. DODGE,
Colonel, Commanding.
Maj. B. B. FOSTER,
Assistant Adjutant-General.


HEADQUARTERS FORREST'S CAVALRY,
Okolona, Miss., November 21, 1863.
Col. B. S. EWELL,
Assistant Adjutant-General.'
I have the honor respectfully to forward herewith reports and communications from Col. R. V. Richardson. I have been unable to ascertain or get a report from him of his force in camps. He states that he has about 300 men, but from other sources I think 250 men will be about the number....I am, colonel, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
N. B. FORREST,
Brigadier-General, Commanding.

[Inclosure No. 4.]
Ordnance report of the West Tennessee Brigade, commanded by Col. Robert V. Richardson.
Arms:
Enfield rifles .... 165
Austrian rifles .... 65
Mississippi rifles .... 2
Sharps rifles .... 19
Colt rifle .... 1
Maynard rifles .... 3
Shotguns .... 10
Springfield rifles .... 7
Musket .... 1
Bayonets .... 78
Bayonet-scabbards .... 78
Colt navy pistols .... 118
Colt army pistols .... 33
Accouterments:
Cartridge-boxes .... 171
Cap-boxes .... 139
Waist-belts .... 11
Cross-belts .... 120
Ammunition:
tabletempEnfield cartridges .... 11,400
Austrian cartridges .... 1,000
Navy pistol-cartridges .... 800
Army pistol-cartridges .... 300
Ammunition in wagons rounds 16,000
Number of serviceable horses .... 247
Number of unserviceable horses .... 40

..... R. V. RICHARDSON,
Colonel, Commanding Northeast Mississippi.
NOVEMBER 19, 1863.



HDQRS. 2D CAV. BRIG.,KAUTZ'S DIV., 18TH A. C.,
Bermuda Hundred, Va., May 25, 1864.
CAPTAIN: In obedience to instructions received from you as per letter of May 24, 1864, I have the honor to make the following report:
May l7.--Started early. Nothing of importance occurred during the day till about 4 p.m., when the command was within a few miles of City Point. Here a small command of 60 or 70 rebel cavalry charged by a side road, halted within 20 yards of L Company, Eleven Pennsylvania Cavalry, and delivered a fire from shot guns. The company halted and returned the fire, whereupon the rebels took to the woods. One man killed by a fire from the woods.
SAML. P. SPEAR,
Col. Eleventh Pa. Cav., Comdg. 2d Brig., Cav. Div.
Capt. M. J. ASCH,
Actg. Asst. Adjt. Gen., Kautz's Cavalry Division.



CHARLESTON, S.C., February 10, 1864.
[Lieut. Col. J. R. WADDY :]
COLONEL: In obedience to special orders received from your office, I have the honor to make the following report in accordance therewith:

At the same camp, near Tallahassee, on the same date, were inspected Companies D and I, Second Florida Cavalry. Company D, Captain Maxwell, 78 men for duty, with seventy-eight Maynard rifles, sabers, and holster pistols, old pattern; the supply of ammunition for rifles small. I directed the captain to make requisition at once on Lieutenant Carlisle for ammunition. The saddles used by this company are the plain tree (saddle), but they seemed to do very well, as none of the horses' backs were at all sore.
Company I, Second Florida Cavalry, Captain Parramore, armed with Maynard rifles, 40; Mississippi rifles. 6; Enfield rifles, 5; caliber carbines, 30; Hall's carbines, 7; double-barreled shotguns, 5. Saddles same as those in Company D. This company has also sabers....On the 11th of January, the ordnance depot, under charge of Lieut. S. S. Carlisle, at Quincy, Fla., was inspected; there were in depot some few infantry accouterments made of canvas, covered with a sort of lacquer. These accouterments are necessarily very poor, and the ammunition can therefore last but a short time, comparatively, in such boxes. The belts are also much too short,
Captain Thigpin's company (A), Second Florida Cavalry, stationed on Dead Lakes, some 90 miles below Chattahoochee, Fla.: 67 men for duty; no Government arms; private arms in hands of company; 4 flint-and-steel Sawyer, 14 Harper's Ferry rifles, 9 carbines, 4 private shotguns, 29 State shotguns. Saddles good; company well supplied with ammunition for present purposes.




MAY 8, 1863.
SECRETARY OF WAR:
Two inclosures. An answer of general assurance and stating what had been done was handed to the committee. These papers are referred for information and due attention.
J. D.
<ar110_462>
defending the Tennessee Valley to our assistants. Of 960 men in Second Alabama only 350 are armed. In addition to Smith's regiment of State Troops (650 men) seven other companies are reported by General Gholson, though not time yet to organize them fully, tolerably well mounted and armed with shotguns. Barteau's regiment (Second Tennessee Cavalry, 540, 40 with horses) principally armed with shotguns. Major Inge has 250 armed with shotguns. Very few pistols or sabers in the command except Second Alabama Regiment. From 2,500 to 2,600 in this district. Hewlett's Alabama battalion (250) needing horses and discipline.

[CJSchumacher]

[QUOTE=T.Kern]At the same camp, near Tallahassee, on the same date, were inspected Companies D and I, Second Florida Cavalry...The saddles used by this company are the plain tree (saddle), but they seemed to do very well, as none of the horses' backs were at all sore.

Company I, Second Florida Cavalry, Captain Parramore, armed with Maynard rifles, 40; Mississippi rifles. 6; Enfield rifles, 5; caliber carbines, 30; Hall's carbines, 7; double-barreled shotguns, 5. Saddles same as those in Company D. This company has also sabers....On the 11th of January, the ordnance depot, under charge of Lieut. S. S. Carlisle, at Quincy, Fla., was inspected; there were in depot some few infantry accouterments made of canvas, covered with a sort of lacquer. These accouterments are necessarily very poor, and the ammunition can therefore last but a short time, comparatively, in such boxes. The belts are also much too short,
[/QUOTE=T.Kern]

Todd,

What can I say...awesome post with a ton of useful information! I love this little bit about the 2nd Florida. Maynards, shotguns, HALL's (at this time!!), Company I with sabers also, tarred accouterments (I love the part about the belts being too short...can just picture a guy with cartridge box and belt ending around mid-torso or higher!)

Talk about a hodge-podge of gear...and shoddy to boot!! At least they had good saddles.

Again, great post.

Chris

[Mike Ventura]

I second Chris' comments. I also appreciate the time and effort taken to post first person information form ORs, correspondence, newspaper articles, etc.

One of the impressions that I've never seen portrayed is that of the UNARMED trooper. In the west, primarily Wheeler's command, anywhere from 20-25% of his troopers were unarmed at any one time duing the mid-late war period (according to Inspection Reports and ORs). It is usually assumed that these unarmed men were the horseholders, and since they were mostly in the rear when the unit was dismounted, had the least need for arms. But, what about those instances when the unit wasn't fighting dismounted? What did they do? Where were they in the formation?

Thoughts for a rainy night in Georgia.

[Vuhginyuh]

Shotgun image.

[KyCavMajor]

I love the sling.

[GBaylor]

Tod,

Any ID on that fellow?

John Sweeney

[ButtermilkRanger]

Great image. Any ideas on whether the sling is Confederate, civilian or maybe English? Also, how is the sling hooked to the shotgun? Inquiring minds want to know.

[RelicRoomGuy]

On the "sawn-off" question: in some cases I've seen, cavalry soldiers provided shotguns from home - the 20th Bn. Georgia Cavalry was an example, and I've seen SC references to this as well. Now, do you chop the end off your OWN squirrel or partridge gun to make it into a street-sweeper? I would think not, and I would expect a paper trail of "commutation" payments if the men were ordered to mutilate their sporting guns in that fashion!

I have often wondered about the "unarmed" troopers, because anywhere near a combat zone I would want a "security blanket" weapon even if it was an inappropriate piece of junk. Would anybody else suspect that these horse-holders would be more likely than most soldiers, to have civilian-model privately owned pistols which wouldn't show up on the ordnance reports? Especially in Wheeler's notoriously not-very-regulated command?

Pure speculation in the hopes of getting informed feedback.
Thanks -

[JDR]

how much more or less effective would a sawed off shotgun be? obviously full length, and sawed off barrels would each have their own advantages. which configuration would be best suited to the job of the garden variety cavalryman?

myself, i believe i would choose to leave my barrels full length. whatcha think ya'll might do?

darryl robertson

[Colbi Rosenthal]

Darryl,

I would think a shotgun would be less effective sawed off,the longer the barrel the more distance you would get from your shot.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Although not a cavalryman, I have had a limited amount of experience with live-fire blackpowder shotguns (18th century flint fowlers, CW era S X S, double, 1870's floating pin S X S double, M1887 Winchester lever action, M1897 Winchester and M1898 Marlin pump action, and thanks to an ex-CW pard- Winchester "over and under" trap double.

Indeed, in an "unchoked" barrel, the shorter the barel length, the wider the shot pattern (or lack of pattern..) is as the range increases.
This appears to be more true of a "pre shotgun shell" "do-it-youself" column of powder, shot, and over and under wads- as the "shell" tends to hold the shot together longer and further after it leaves the muzzle.

I have tried 36 inch, 30 inch, and 20 inch barrels. The 36 "reaches" out the tighest, furthest. (I have tried the "sawed off's" on trap's clay pigeons as well...and tested patterns versus range into cardboard sheets to count the holes).
The "Street Howitzer" sprays (but that was the intent- one did not hunt fowl with a "sawed off"... ;-).

Another factor I might mention is the cavalryman's ability to LOAD a "roll your own" muzzleloading single or double barrel shotgun. Mounted must have been a skill (particularly as the barrels got longer...), moving dismounted, and particularly in combat. Even with a charger and a chargeable shot bag.

I envision shotgun use as a "in your face" for one or two devastating shots, and a skedaddle (or punching a hole through a line of infantry...) . Dismounted, the range of federal breechloading carbines and muzzleloading rifles rough to get into effective or even max range, and maintain any exchange, at "sawed off" ranges.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
PULL Mess

[JDR]

Darryl,

I would think a shotgun would be less effective sawed off,the longer the barrel the more distance you would get from your shot.


the range would be the reason i would leave the barrels at their original length. IF i had a pistol or a saber, i would be less concerned about the shotgun being a close quarter weapon. a short barreled shotgun would be less wieldly to load mounted, but that would be the only advantage i can see.

darryl robertson

[ButtermilkRanger]

I'm inclined to agree the the majority of barrels were probably left long, if for no other reason than what Joe said. I think shotguns were as likely to be weapons brought from home as they were issued. I don't think the average joe blow cavalryman would have had the means to shorten his barrel and if it was happening in armories, then there would have been some type of documentation somewhere (maybe).

I recently found a journal of a Mississippi cavalryman who enlisted in very early '62 but who's unit did not receive arms until very late '62. When they received them, it was through private purchase by the commander. All of the men in the command were issued shotguns and one company was issued sabers. My own gut feeling is that these shotguns were most likely procured as they would be now... by combing the countryside buying up what was available in private homes, gun shops, and general stores. Then, as now, shotguns were used for hunting mostly small game and fowl. In my lifetime of experienced as a hunter with a shotgun, I've found that the only use I've ever had for a sawed off shotgun in the woods was when hunting rabbits in very close quarters. The shorter barrel allows me to swing around in the briars better. On the other hand, the rabbit has to almost be running up my leg to do hit it. For squirrel or duck hunting, the longer the barrel, the better. Why, even in the army, would anyone go through the trouble of sawing off their barrels when it wouldn't make that much difference in the long run anyway?

Another reason I feel barrels were left full length (which of course will vary from gun to gun) is with the lack of originals still seen. Original shotguns are still a dime a dozen on the gun auction sites. How many there are sawed off? There's a reason for that, don't you think?

[ButtermilkRanger]

Let's go back to the pic Tod posted a moment...

From looking at the position of the sling and where I think the swivel should end up on the shotgun, is is possible or probable that the sling is attached by a ring on the grip part of the stock? I've seen reenactors attach a ring to their shotguns with a footman loop and a ring from a saddle screwed into the stock of a shotgun, but I've always discredited this as a reenactorism. Is it possible that this is what this young man has here?

I'd like some opinions on this one.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hi All!

"Why, even in the army, would anyone go through the trouble of sawing off their barrels when it wouldn't make that much difference in the long run anyway?"

Later on in Time, the U.S. Army visited shotguns with the Winchester M1897 modified with "sawed-off" 20 inch barrels, heat guard, swivel, and bayonet mount for "service" in the WWI trenches ("trench raiding" and "trench defense").
And again, in Viet Nam, where some soldiers found a shotgun "useful" in the "bush." (I do not recall sawed off's though...). And, the Army had "flechette" rounds available for them.

IMHO, the "sawed off's" with 18 1/2 or 20 inch (whatever) barrels sold by the Italians as "cavalry shotguns" are just an attempt to cheaply and easily take a product from one area to another and market to the CW crowd.
;-)

Pondering the Old Question, do tactics drive firearm development, or does firearm devleopment drive tactics (or both...)? ;-) :-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[JDR]

I'm inclined to agree the the majority of barrels were probably left long, if for no other reason than what Joe said. I think shotguns were as likely to be weapons brought from home as they were issued. I don't think the average joe blow cavalryman would have had the means to shorten his barrel and if it was happening in armories, then there would have been some type of documentation somewhere (maybe).

I recently found a journal of a Mississippi cavalryman who enlisted in very early '62 but who's unit did not receive arms until very late '62. When they received them, it was through private purchase by the commander. All of the men in the command were issued shotguns and one company was issued sabers. My own gut feeling is that these shotguns were most likely procured as they would be now... by combing the countryside buying up what was available in private homes, gun shops, and general stores. Then, as now, shotguns were used for hunting mostly small game and fowl. In my lifetime of experienced as a hunter with a shotgun, I've found that the only use I've ever had for a sawed off shotgun in the woods was when hunting rabbits in very close quarters. The shorter barrel allows me to swing around in the briars better. On the other hand, the rabbit has to almost be running up my leg to do hit it. For squirrel or duck hunting, the longer the barrel, the better. Why, even in the army, would anyone go through the trouble of sawing off their barrels when it wouldn't make that much difference in the long run anyway?

Another reason I feel barrels were left full length (which of course will vary from gun to gun) is with the lack of originals still seen. Original shotguns are still a dime a dozen on the gun auction sites. How many there are sawed off? There's a reason for that, don't you think?


"i don't think joe-blow cavalryman have the means to shorten his barrel..." thats a damn good point.

darryl robertson

[T.Kern]

Let's go back to the pic Tod posted a moment...

From looking at the position of the sling and where I think the swivel should end up on the shotgun, is is possible or probable that the sling is attached by a ring on the grip part of the stock? I've seen reenactors attach a ring to their shotguns with a footman loop and a ring from a saddle screwed into the stock of a shotgun, but I've always discredited this as a reenactorism. Is it possible that this is what this young man has here?

I'd like some opinions on this one.
I believe the footmans loop screwed in is a reenactorism. Like the ever so present link strap hook for a canteen. As for riding with it, across the back it's the most comfortable of any long arm I've carried (and that is a lot of different types).
As for the very interesting info on loading the shotgun and patterns, I might point out there were issued buckshot cartridges but better yet or I believe more common was the use of the buck and ball cartridges in a shotgun.
Sincerely, Todd Kern

[NC5thCav]

I think Todd makes an excellent point about the ammunition. Everyone keeps talking about range and accuracy problems with shotguns, but if loaded with buck and ball, they would have about the same effectiveness as a smoothbore musket, assuming it was left long. This would leave the trooper with a weapon with about the same range and accurace as an infantryman with a 1842 Springfield or 1822 conversion. Also, substituting bucksot for birdshot would make a big difference. Even being hit with only one pellet could cause a pretty good wound, as opposed to the minor irratation likely to be caused by say a #6 shot. I would much rather be hit with one birdshot than one buckshot! :)

[ButtermilkRanger]

I believe the footmans loop screwed in is a reenactorism. Like the ever so present link strap hook for a canteen. As for riding with it, across the back it's the most comfortable of any long arm I've carried (and that is a lot of different types).
As for the very interesting info on loading the shotgun and patterns, I might point out there were issued buckshot cartridges but better yet or I believe more common was the use of the buck and ball cartridges in a shotgun.
Sincerely, Todd Kern

Todd,

I'm inclined to agree. I've always thought that the footman loop is a reenactorism. On the other hand, do you have any input as to how this trooper in this period photograph has his carbine sling swivel attached to his shotgun? That's the part that has me intrigued. The only thing that comes to mind for me is the footman stand/ring combo that I've always shrugged off as farb to the core. Maybe I was wrong?

[Cleaveland]

darrl, david or dan, hope all is well with you,ns way out yonder in the deep deep south.
Anyhow, what about a simple staple and ring, both readily available to the mounted men on both sides. I believe there is a spencer rifle attributed to Wilders brigade with a staple and ring on the wrist of the stock to attach the sling to.

[ButtermilkRanger]

darrl, david or dan, hope all is well with you,ns way out yonder in the deep deep south.
Anyhow, what about a simple staple and ring, both readily available to the mounted men on both sides. I believe there is a spencer rifle attributed to Wilders brigade with a staple and ring on the wrist of the stock to attach the sling to.

John,

Actually it was me and not Darryl that had the question about attaching the swivel snap to the shotgun, but thanks for the answer anyway. Do you have access to that Spencer by any chance? I'd like to see a pic. Am I correct to assume that the ring and staple were on the side of the stock wrist and not the bottom? I know that some carbines had a ring on the bottom of the weapon instead of the side like we see traditionally. Either way, it's good information and not something I'd thought of before.

[Jimmayo]

Had the pleasure of hunting one of Gen. Barringer's 1864 Cav. winter camp around Petersburg. Can't remember finding any CS shotgun slugs. Maybe a few round balls but lots of Richmond Sharp bullets. These bullets were being made by the CS for the sharpes carbines. They were by far the most prevelant bullet found. Not many C buttons found either. Lots of NC sun burst and block I and A's.

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kamerad!

"Am I correct to assume that the ring and staple were on the side of the stock wrist and not the bottom? I know that some carbines had a ring on the bottom of the weapon instead of the side like we see traditionally."

I don't know about the Wilder's Brigade Spencer Rifle, but...

The M1860 Spencer Carbine was a little strange (as was the Burnside). It had the saddle ring and bar mounted to the side of the wrist and the rear of the receiver. But, it also had a sling swivel screwed in under the butt stock a few inches from the toe (the same as on the Spencer Rifle, the rifle having the additional upper swivel on the middle barrel band.)

Rings on the bottom types: US and British Greenes, Jenks-Merrill, some Lindners, Merrills).

I would be interested in the "Wilder" specimen...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Tenth Illinois Company H]

I would be looking to carry a shotgun too. Where to find (repro) or orginal from that time. Any ideas?

[Mike Nickerson]

http://www.gunbroker.com/ do a search for "Percussion Double Barrel Shotgun" you are most likey looking for a 16 - 10 ga. pre-war import.

Mike Nickerson

[fortdonelsonrelics]

darrl, david or dan, hope all is well with you,ns way out yonder in the deep deep south.
Anyhow, what about a simple staple and ring, both readily available to the mounted men on both sides. I believe there is a spencer rifle attributed to Wilders brigade with a staple and ring on the wrist of the stock to attach the sling to.

The Spencer your speaking of I believe is in "Blue Lighting" it was a field modification. Bob Becker from Covington, Ga, who has probably the largest collection of I'd Wilder's Spencers, has only seen a couple of this type.

John Walsh

[W. K. Osman]

Here is a photo of the back half of a DB shotgun captured on 5 August 1862 outside Baton Rouge near the Greenwell Springs Road by Paleman J. Smally, Co. C, 4th Wisconsin Cavalry. He left a nice inscription on the stock, and the trophy came from his grandson in Minneapolis many years ago. Damage to the forend was done when the gun was smashed against a tree, breaking off the barrel and tearing out the barrel key. The back action lock plates are engraved "Perkins". Stephen Osman

[Linkstrap]

Great image. Any ideas on whether the sling is Confederate, civilian or maybe English? Also, how is the sling hooked to the shotgun? Inquiring minds want to know.

Larry, this could perhaps be one possible answer to your question, "how is the sling hooked to the shotgun?"

The positioning looks to be about right for where that sling in the picture is attached.


http://americana.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=663&Lot_No=72245

[AZReenactor]

how much more or less effective would a sawed off shotgun be? obviously full length, and sawed off barrels would each have their own advantages. which configuration would be best suited to the job of the garden variety cavalryman?

myself, i believe i would choose to leave my barrels full length. whatcha think ya'll might do?

darryl robertson

Actually, I would hope the question in this community is "what did they do?"

[cavman63]

Troy, I think you may have took Darryl's question the wrong way.

He knows the questions this community needs to ask I assure you. Personally I see nothing wrong with a little speculation as to how one might handle a given situation or problem after all those boys learned by trial and error just like we do now.

For me I believe that if shotguns in general are under-represented then of those, sawed-off shotguns are way overepresented in this hobby.....like pistols.

but thats just my own humble opinion.

[csabugler]

Troy, I agree with the other Patrick. Back on 08/27/04 When Darryl posed that question I interpreted that as "based upon your research and the discussion here, whatcha think ya'll might do?" I believe the research and discussion included"what did they do" by reference and subject matter.
Patrick

[Provost]

I bought a period shotgun last year on GunsAmerica.com, noting that it had shorter barrels. Upon receipt and close examination, it was clear that the barrels had been shortened, (possibly for use as a coach gun, perhaps CW ) and the ramrod was incorrect - and there was no front sight. One hammer had been replaced ( with a period correct replacement ) and this is more common with sidehammer shotguns than you would expect.

I haven't fired it because the nipples are badly peened, and I have been thinking of replacing them with Enfield nipples - a plausible period replacement, but I fear that heat may be required to remove the old ones, and that of course brings materials safety issues to the forefront.

I also examined a period shotgun at an event last year which had a fine, sturdy saddle ring and bar with matching patina to the piece overall, but was unable to determine whether it was manufactured with the ring, or it was added later. If it was an aftermarket replacement, the work was excellent.

It is important to understand that folks have been customizing weapons for special purposes for centuries, so a modified weapon - either by arsenal or individual - can be period correct even if it is unusual. I have an original 1861 Springfield ( butt plate stamped Co. B Ill Vol ) in which the nose cap has been replaced with a brass Enfield cap. Not just the cap was replaced, but upon close examination, it can be seen that a couple of inches of the forestock behind the nose cap had also been replaced. The workmanship was so good that only the change in grain pattern gives it away.

As the Deputy Provost for the 9th Battalion, 1st Division, ANV, I also have safety responsibilities, so use of double barrels on the field naturally causes me a bit of worry. Last year I caught a couple of youngsters loading sidehammer cartridge shotgun shells with black powder and toilet paper wads. They claimed "the public" probably wouldn't notice them breaking open the actions and shoving modern plastic shells in. They seemed genuinely surprised when I ordered the weapons in question to be locked in their vehicles not to return to my camp for any reason.

Lacking any specific ANV regulations regarding shotguns, I permit them on the field as long as they are thoroughly inspected and then only loaded consistent with acceptable rifle musket muzzleloading practices. It is critical that your loading procedure be such that there is no possibility of double-charging one barrel. One such technique would be, after charging the first barrel, fold the empty cartridge paper in half and hang it over the side of the loaded barrel, half in, and half out. This "flags" that barrel as already loaded. After loading the second barrel, remove the paper flag from the other and you have reasonable assurance that each barrel has a single charge.

Properly maintained, I believe original period shotguns can be safely used on the battlefield, utilizing light loads of perhaps 20-25 grains of FF and no wad of any kind. It is important to understand that shotgun barrels are generally Damascus steel and are much thinner than rifle musket barrels. They are easy to dent, causing a constriction which may increase the bore pressure.

To date, I know of no modern reproductions which come even close to accurately replicating the hundreds of authentic period pieces I have examined. The good news is, excellent period correct pieces are available at quite reasonable prices ( expect to pay around $500 and up for one with good nipples, strong springs, reliable half-cock, original matching locks, and ramrod. The better ones have platinum blow-out plugs on the sides of the chambers - easy to spot as a silver dot about the size of a pea. There's a sizable fraternity of bird hunters out there that still hunt with them.

Yours in Service,

Lt. Jim Peden
Deputy Provost, 9th Battalion, ANV

[Sccavtrooper]

i just saw a shotgun sold at auction that was confedearte and even had a ring for attachement on carbine sling. i will scan and post a pic when i can

[Linkstrap]

Do you mean this one? (If so, this is the same shotgun that I referred to in my post above).

Just sold at Heritage Auctions, http://americana.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=663&Lot_No=72245

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r307/Linkstrap/381598.jpg

[csabugler]

just out of curiosity, Anybodyknow what that shotgun sold for? The add said something about an "estimated $2000-$3000" :eek:
Patrick

[T.Kern]

From my research, and this is an old topic rehashing the same info, shotguns were common, more so early in the war, but some still around at the end. Most were left long as shorting them cut effective range. A lot of evidence points to them being carried with a gun sling across the back but there are examples of carbine type slings being used as well. I think alot of the cut downs, with either shotguns or muskets, are done after the war for sporting pieces. Damascus barrels were a post war innovation, most period guns I've seen were not Damascus. When I worked in museums I handled several captured shotguns with good provenance that were as described above, one comes to mind from Ashby's cav.

Sincerely, Todd Kern





I bought a period shotgun last year on GunsAmerica.com, noting that it had shorter barrels. Upon receipt and close examination, it was clear that the barrels had been shortened, (possibly for use as a coach gun, perhaps CW ) and the ramrod was incorrect - and there was no front sight. One hammer had been replaced ( with a period correct replacement ) and this is more common with sidehammer shotguns than you would expect.

I haven't fired it because the nipples are badly peened, and I have been thinking of replacing them with Enfield nipples - a plausible period replacement, but I fear that heat may be required to remove the old ones, and that of course brings materials safety issues to the forefront.

I also examined a period shotgun at an event last year which had a fine, sturdy saddle ring and bar with matching patina to the piece overall, but was unable to determine whether it was manufactured with the ring, or it was added later. If it was an aftermarket replacement, the work was excellent.

It is important to understand that folks have been customizing weapons for special purposes for centuries, so a modified weapon - either by arsenal or individual - can be period correct even if it is unusual. I have an original 1861 Springfield ( butt plate stamped Co. B Ill Vol ) in which the nose cap has been replaced with a brass Enfield cap. Not just the cap was replaced, but upon close examination, it can be seen that a couple of inches of the forestock behind the nose cap had also been replaced. The workmanship was so good that only the change in grain pattern gives it away.

As the Deputy Provost for the 9th Battalion, 1st Division, ANV, I also have safety responsibilities, so use of double barrels on the field naturally causes me a bit of worry. Last year I caught a couple of youngsters loading sidehammer cartridge shotgun shells with black powder and toilet paper wads. They claimed "the public" probably wouldn't notice them breaking open the actions and shoving modern plastic shells in. They seemed genuinely surprised when I ordered the weapons in question to be locked in their vehicles not to return to my camp for any reason.

Lacking any specific ANV regulations regarding shotguns, I permit them on the field as long as they are thoroughly inspected and then only loaded consistent with acceptable rifle musket muzzleloading practices. It is critical that your loading procedure be such that there is no possibility of double-charging one barrel. One such technique would be, after charging the first barrel, fold the empty cartridge paper in half and hang it over the side of the loaded barrel, half in, and half out. This "flags" that barrel as already loaded. After loading the second barrel, remove the paper flag from the other and you have reasonable assurance that each barrel has a single charge.

Properly maintained, I believe original period shotguns can be safely used on the battlefield, utilizing light loads of perhaps 20-25 grains of FF and no wad of any kind. It is important to understand that shotgun barrels are generally Damascus steel and are much thinner than rifle musket barrels. They are easy to dent, causing a constriction which may increase the bore pressure.

To date, I know of no modern reproductions which come even close to accurately replicating the hundreds of authentic period pieces I have examined. The good news is, excellent period correct pieces are available at quite reasonable prices ( expect to pay around $500 and up for one with good nipples, strong springs, reliable half-cock, original matching locks, and ramrod. The better ones have platinum blow-out plugs on the sides of the chambers - easy to spot as a silver dot about the size of a pea. There's a sizable fraternity of bird hunters out there that still hunt with them.

Yours in Service,

Lt. Jim Peden
Deputy Provost, 9th Battalion, ANV

[FlaCpl.]

In my humble opinion, cavarly personel (or for that matter anyone) should equip themselves with whatever their unit historically was armed with. If the documentation isn't there, go witwhatever time and theater dictate.
Cpl. Walter Cook
4th Florida Regiment of Infantry Company G.

[8thmocav]

Wow, great info everyone! I'm glad to see this post, as I was considering these questions myself as I'm looking to get into cavalry (starting with dismounted until budget allows horses!)

I currently own a nice a Enfield (3 band), and was considering selling it to get a carbine. But is sounds like I'd be fine with it.

My question is, (as I try to envision riding with it) how was it handled on horseback? Surely it was fired off horseback (with one is the squad holding the other horses, etc). But how did they ride with such an unwieldy weapon. Did they just extend the sling?

Please educate me...

Brent Harty
8thmocav@gmail.com

[KyCavMajor]

Wow, great info everyone! I'm glad to see this post, as I was considering these questions myself as I'm looking to get into cavalry (starting with dismounted until budget allows horses!)

I currently own a nice a Enfield (3 band), and was considering selling it to get a carbine. But is sounds like I'd be fine with it.

My question is, (as I try to envision riding with it) how was it handled on horseback? Surely it was fired off horseback (with one is the squad holding the other horses, etc). But how did they ride with such an unwieldy weapon. Did they just extend the sling?

Please educate me...

Brent Harty
8thmocav@gmail.com


Brent,
The enfield is a fine weapon, but was seldom fired off horse back, as you surmised it is unwieldy in that.
When I carry a firearm of that length I just sling it over my shoulder.

[1st Maine Trooper]

A rifle musket is unwieldy on horeback, however they can be used effectively from horseback. With a bit of practice, they can be loaded (including ramming) and fired from horse back. The length of the weapon and its weight require a more balanced seat when in a firing position than the shorter carbines. They can be carried slung across the back or in one hand.

Dave Myrick

[8thmocav]

Thanks Tod and Dave for the replies. I'm a few years years from horseback (unless some lucky miracle occurs!) but I'm trying to be prepared to that point and gather all info I can. I'm working towards a Western Theater impression. I recently stumbled across a list showing what Confederate forces under Gen. Marmaduke at Pilot Knob would have had. And Enfields were apparently quite a common weapon for those fellas. Most were also dismounted at that point according to the research presented for the upcoming reenactment this Fall.

[Mike Nickerson]

Most were also dismounted at that point according to the research presented for the upcoming reenactment this Fall.

Brent, I see the number of "dismounted" troopers you speak of, prominently listed on your unit's web site: http://www.8thmissouricavalry.blogspot.com/ .

I also noticed a horse with 4 saddle mounted revolvers and a carbine in a boot. I however, failed to see the supporting documentation on the numbers of available revolvers and Indian War carbine boots available to the same unit, during the same time period? Does the normal trooper wear 2 additional belt mounted revolvers (for a grand total of 6)?

Mike Nickerson

[Jim Mayo]

If you can find a reprint, try reading Johnny Reb and Billy Yank by Alexander Hunter. (Note this is not Rilly's book of a similar name.) Hunter's book was published in the late 1800's by Neal Publishing Co. but has been reprinted.

Hunter started out in the 17th Va. Inf but after Fredricksburg transferred to the Black Horse Cav. of the 2nd Va., Co. B. In his book he talks a bit about what weapons he was carrying and mentions carrying a shotgun around April of 65. He also talks about maintaining mounts especially when his horse breaks down. This is little known but a must read book . He was quite the cavalier and is buried in the Confederate section of Arlington cemetary.