An apple amid the cornstalks.

[ThehosGendar]

Gents,

Amid the hewn cornstalks, strewn equipments, and mangled bodies in the Sunken Road at Antietam...
http://www.3nj.org/sunkenroad.jpg

There lies...

http://www.3nj.org/apple.jpg
An apple amid the cornstalks.

Are there any apple experts here? Perhaps we can finally put to rest the divisive issue of what would be the proper apple to carry for a September 1862 impression!

[ewtaylor]

Awfully big hole on top, are you sure that isn't a Krispy Kreme doughnut?
Just kidding, great pics. What site are these pics coming from? I have been saving the ones you post to my files but was wanting to check out others for myself.
thanks,
ewtaylor
bluegrass rifles

[Masked Battery]

...winesaps.

[DougCooper]

Jason - great job as usual. It strikes me that nobody that I can recall has done a detailed study of the uniforms on the Antietam dead - esp the Louisianans along the Pike. Les Jensen may have something but I have never seen it in print. With the kind of resolution available now on your program...I think it's time. Up to a challenge?

...looks like a species of Apple similar to the Delicious or Hubbartson variety - not quite round but more elongated. I hope it's first soldier owner made it back through Piper's corn field and lived to a ripe old age in Alabama.

You are breathing new life back into these forums Jason - thanks!!

[Ringgold]

I'm not an apple expert, but I do know a bit more about mid-nineteenth century pommes than many. I've looked at this image for quite some time, but nothing came to mind that might be a candidate. It seems to lack the proper "geography and topography" to be any of the apples that I am familiar with. Especially those that would be ripe, or even near-ripe by mid-September. However, It does share many similarities to a few tomatoes of the period. Most tomatoes would be producing well in mid-September. Could it be a tomato? Something like a Tiffin, perhaps? :confused:

If it were still a bit green, it could easily withstand a beating and be in the condition that is shown in the image.

Just a thought. . .

[pfeiffer3964]

Using the color wheel from another thread, I believe that whatever it is... apple, tomato, whatever... it appears to be yellow/green. The top of the object matches the yellow section of the color wheel while the sides, which are either in the shade or do not have a sun glare, match the yellow/green and green areas of the color wheel.

An interesting tidbit from http://www.vegparadise.com/highestperch39.html:

"In 1860 an Iowa apple farmer named Hesse Hiatt came upon a unique apple tree in his orchard, a tree that he hadn't planted. When the fruit was harvested, he marveled at its unusual appearance and superb flavor. It turned out to be the Golden Delicious that Mr. Hiatt then cultivated and introduced to the whole world."
Perhaps its a Golden Delicious!

--Jim

[Eric Burke]

If it had been laying there for quite some time, wouldn't it have turned yellow/green anyway?

BTW, Jason ... how do you get that close to the photograph (zoomed in on the apple) and still maintain image clarity? Are you using the "higher resolution JPEG version" at the LOC website?

[hardtack1864]

Can anyone tell what type of haversack that is next to the apple?

[Ringgold]

I almost forgot. It might also be a quince! :(

Boiled in water with enough sugar/sorghum/honey and a few hard crackers, it would be a meal fit for a king. ( Add some brandy and it would be fit for Rufus King! :p )

[marlin teat]

“…..Our company was there in the thick of the fight in an apple orchard and cornfield. The ground was covered with apples where we fought, shot off the trees. I pulled some of them and tried to eat them.”
William Judkins
Co. G, 22nd Ga.
Wright’s Brigade
Anderson’s Division

Wright's Brigade marker is just to the left of the tower at the sunken road where the roadbed wasn't so deep. I don't know exactly where the picture was taken but it's probable that other troops also passed through the same orchard.

[pfeiffer3964]

If it had been laying there for quite some time, wouldn't it have turned yellow/green anyway?

I don't think so... rotting apples that I have seen turn brown. But, who knows for sure?

--Jim

[ThehosGendar]

ewtaylor,

The sun is shining directly at the top of the object, and it doesn't appear to have the type of glare one would expect from a mid-day sun reflecting off of a sugar glaze, which is the characteristic trait the signature Krispy Kreme donut. It is still within the realm of reason that the former owner purchased/procured a non-glazed cake donut.

Of course, if it really came to it, we could commission a wet-plate photographer to visit the sunken road, or more closely simulate the conditions by constructing a sunken road closer to the original in the image. (I'm sure the Park Service would take issue with altering the real one to simulate its Sept. 17-18, 1862 condition) Using one of each of a type of apple documented to the period under a mid-day sun (1 - 3 p.m.), strike an image and compare them. Of course, this would be time consuming and expensive, but it would shed light into the little researched world of produce during the war. Perhaps a grant could be had from the Dept. of Agriculture?

Mark,
Gotcher tomatoes right hea':
http://www.3nj.org/freshtomatoes.jpg

Sean,
I can't make out a haversack near the apple. It appear to be a rock that is really reflecting off sunlight, as there are other similarly shaped rocks around as well. Just out of the cropped image above the apple, there is, however, a cartidge box, a large piece of cloth which may be garment ot a groundcloth, and a squished hat.

Doug,
Thanks! I accept the challenge! I've been perusing through those images and have already found some interesting things.

[hardtack1864]

The only reason I thought it was a haversack is because its white and seems to have a flap. It looks like the food item had fallen out of the haversack and it looks like it had not rolled more then 6 inches ,but if it is a rock then what I just said is not correct.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

At first glance I thought it was a canvas haversack too. But now that Jason has pointed out that it's a rock, I'll have to agree.

Right below the apple, there appears to be an upside down shoe. Does anybody else see this? I could be wrong. What do you guys think?

Jim,
I disagree with your "golden delicious" statement. I used to work at a produce market when I was younger, and the shape of the apple in the image looks like something else. I also don't think it's a winesap either because winsaps are red and the apple in the image looks lighter.

I wish we had the old forum search feature working because I remember last year there was a thread about peroid apples and it would have helped out this discussion.

Anybody have any other ideas?

[hardtack1864]

I think your right about the shoe and I still think its a haversack because you can make out the buckle mid way down also what I think is the flap is way to thin for a rock, but I really don't see a strap any were though. One more thing, I do see a rock next to the white haversack ,but if the haversack turned out to be a rock that rock is really light clored and seems more like marble.

[NY Pvt]

Someone already posted that many of these troops came through the Piper orchard. That is the most likely place it came from. I am not sure when apple season is in Maryland, the color my be a result of it still being too early for them...Might not.

Has anyone tried contacting the NPS about what type of apple trees were located in the Piper orchard? If they could tell you that, then it should narrow the options down if not give you the answer and would be a heck of a lot cheaper then the period photographer.

[va-yank]

Jason, Nice job.

To those curious about the resolution. The LOC has uncompressed TIFF images available for many of the indexed items. And some that are not in the index of any online "collection".

The Antietam visitors center has a large image in the lobby of the dead by the Dunker Church (the one with the wrecked caison). Anyway, standing there looking at the picture, it was the first time I noticed the pair of shoes sitting in the foreground. Amazing, the detail that is possible from the old wetplates, that we assumed was not there.

[ThehosGendar]

The Antietam visitors center has a large image in the lobby of the dead by the Dunker Church (the one with the wrecked caison). Anyway, standing there looking at the picture, it was the first time I noticed the pair of shoes sitting in the foreground.

http://www.3nj.org/chausseurs.jpg

Amazing, the detail that is possible from the old wetplates, that we assumed was not there.

I'll certainly second that. The clarity in some images is so amazing that you can see freckles on soldiers' faces and wrinkles in leather belts.

[Jimmayo]

Letter written by a private in the 15th Alabama has this to say about the women feeding the boys during the march to Antietam.

"When we reached Frederick City they met our ragged, dirty boys in the streets and carried them to their houses and fed them with nice things, and even carried FRUIT into the streets to every Southern soldier they could find."

September is very close to apple time in MD. Especially if you are very hungry.

[Bill Shea]

Corn stalks or grapevines in the cropped image? Not that it matters to the occasion.

They seem to thin and flexable to be corn stalks surrounding the apple. Could there have been vines left in the road after the troops were through?

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

I can see it now...... Everyone will have an apple in their haversack at the next Antietam event. :D mmmmm apples...

[hardtack1864]

Since a shoe is next to the food item in questions and that let us just say the shoe is a size 9-10 "since that was the average size of the time", I have concluded that since the food item is wider than the sole and it being to early "mid-Sept." for a apple of the time "1862" to be that big is impossible, I have to say that is a Tomato. Case closed.

[CJSchumacher]

Since a shoe is next to the food item in questions and that let us just say the shoe is a size 9-10 "since that was the average size of the time", I have concluded that since the food item is wider than the sole and it being to early "mid-Sept." for a apple of the time "1862" to be that big is impossible, I have to say that is a Tomato. Case closed.

Sean,

Who ever said that was a "definitive" shoe?? How can you say with certainty its a 9-10? Have you look at many original shoes and boots? In real life...not in books??

One needs to compare the "shoe" with the catridge box above the cropped image to even start to make a size comparison.

I still agree with Jason's original assessment. When you walk into that photograph and take a bite out of the object in question...then I'll accept "case closed."

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Sean,

That apples huge!!!! If it's an apple that is.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Maybe it is a rock apple from the rock haversack.

[1stMaine]

Comrade,
In response to your query vis-a-vis corn stalks or vines, I would venture the latter. I've walked that stretch many times, and especially the roads leading towards Antitam Creek from the Piper farm, and the wooden fences and areas along the various trails are thick with vines in places.
respects,

[huntdaw]

What I think:

It's an apple. The hole at the top resembles where the stem is connected and the body has that tapered, elongated look to the bottom. It would certainly not be a Golden Delicious. If that variety was only discovered in 1860 in Iowa it is hard for me to believe there would be trees of fruit bearing size in Maryland a scant 2 years later.

I think that is a haversack. It's mighty white for a rock that has sunlight on it and the other rocks right next to it are dull. That's a mighty small beam of light if it is only hitting that one rock. And it looks like there is a fastener device on the object.

I wonder about those being cornstalks too. It looks like tall grass that might have been growing in the rows or at the edge of the field that was torn out and wrapped around the legs of soldiers as they passed through.

I think the "shoes" that someone wondered about near the apple are actually rocks. But, we would have to see more of that area in the photo to determine.

Well, it's all speculation on our parts but it certainly is an interesting exercise in studying a period photo.

[ThehosGendar]

Sean,

That apples huge!!!! If it it's an apple that is.

You should see the apples at the orchards at the Monmouth Battlefield here in Jersey in October. They're monstrous!

I'm working an another detailed study of this image. Tune in again this evening for more!

[acwillen]

Maybe it is a rock apple from the rock haversack.

Maybe it's just me, but I think that "rock haversack" looks like a chunk of log - maybe from a fence post?

[hardtack1864]

Now Thehos, you said the apples are that big in Oct and not in mid Sept Maryland. Also that haversack maybe something else I DON'T @#$%^&8 KNOW!!!! One more thing, if that is not a shoe sole next to the food item in question then what is it and that was a GUESS on the shoe size because it could very well be size 6-13!!!!!! :rolleyes: It was a GUESS since that was the average shoe size of the TIME!!! :mad:

[ThehosGendar]

Now Thehos, you said the apples are that big in Oct and not in mid Sept Maryland. Also that haversack maybe something else I DON'T @#$%^&8 KNOW!!!! One more thing, if that is not a shoe sole next to the food item in question then what is it and that was a GUESS on the shoe size because it could very well be size 6-13!!!!!! :rolleyes: It was a GUESS since that was the average shoe size of the TIME!!! :mad:

Sheesh! Calm down! All I was saying was that the apples get big at Battleview Orchards in Freehold, New Jersey. I wasn't making any claims to anything other than they get pretty whacking big.

As for me, I don't think that the object next to the disputed piece of produce is a shoe. It doesn't appear to have a heel, or if the heel were removed for some reason, any nail/tack markings for where the heel would have been attached. However, I do retract my earlier assertion that the whitish object to the upper left of the disputed piece of produce is a rock. There does appear to be a strap coming off of it, and yes, that would be an amazingly strong beam of light to illuminate a grey rock to that bright a white. It could be a haversack, it could be a small satchel, but we'll never know for certain unless a new image from the opposite site of the road is discovered. Photoshop is great, but it doesn't let me move around 141 year old camera positions.

To prove that I am totally obsessive/compulsive, I performed my own recreation of the scene out in the fields of Jackson, NJ. I submit the following to aid in discerning whether or not it is an apple or a tomato.

The original:
http://www.3nj.org/original.jpg

A Rome apple:
http://www.3nj.org/applerepop.jpg

A vine ripened tomato (not a Jersey tomato):
http://www.3nj.org/tomatorepop.jpg

A can of Sacramento tomato juice:
http://www.3nj.org/tomatjoos.jpg

[ThehosGendar]

Sheesh! Calm down! All I was saying was that the apples get big at Battleview Orchards in Freehold, New Jersey. I wasn't making any claims to anything other than they get pretty whacking big up here in the 21st century.

As for me, I don't think that the object next to the disputed piece of produce is a shoe. It doesn't appear to have a heel, or if the heel were removed for some reason, any nail/tack markings for where the heel would have been attached. However, I do retract my earlier assertion that the whitish object to the upper left of the disputed piece of produce is a rock. There does appear to be a strap coming off of it, and yes, that would be an amazingly strong beam of light to illuminate a grey rock to that bright a white. It could be a haversack, it could be a small satchel, but we'll never know for certain unless a new image from the opposite site of the road is discovered. Photoshop is great, but it doesn't let me move around 141 year old camera positions.

To prove that I am totally obsessive/compulsive, I performed my own recreation of the scene out in the fields of Jackson, NJ. I submit the following to aid in discerning whether or not it is an apple or a tomato.

The original:
http://www.3nj.org/original.jpg

A Rome apple:
http://www.3nj.org/applerepop.jpg

A vine ripened tomato (not a Jersey tomato):
http://www.3nj.org/tomatorepop.jpg

A can of Sacramento tomato juice:
http://www.3nj.org/tomatjoos.jpg

I wear a size 9 shoe, and although the sole of my shoe is close in size to the mysterious object below the disputed piece of produce (MOBtDPoP), it would have to be only the sole of a shoe laying there, as if it were the entire shoe, it would obscure a majority of the produce item. Also, by comparing the MOBtDPoP to the debris around it which is laying flat on the ground, one can see that there is not much mass to it, for it, as well, is laying nearly flat on the ground.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Jason,

Nice touch! The can of tomato juice fits in nicely.

I'm pretty sure the battlefield was covered with cans, since the Confederate army marched through a "tomato juice factory" before all hell broke loose. (does anybody have a can opener?) Where's the "cross-eyed smiley face" when you need it? Doh! old forum....

I remain,

Hog-eyed

[pfeiffer3964]

Jason:

I don't think that the can in the third reproduced image is actually "Sacramento" tomato juice. I just ran out to the corner store to check and, while the can looks quite similar, it's size is just a bit off and the label appears to be a tad bit more yellow than the golden hue of the examined specimen. I suppose the only way I’ll know for sure is to conduct a field survey of the size and color of “Sacramento” tomato juice cans sold in Jackson, NJ and surrounding areas. Perhaps the manufacturer can assist me in determining the exact date the batch was made and bottled.

For the record, the shoe to which I compared my specimen was a size 11 ½.

Tschuss.

[Jimmayo]

This has got to stop! I spent a couple of hours this morning at work downloading pictures from the NA and examining them. Now I have to go in on Sat to get my work done. I did discover a couple of interesting things. One dead Confederate in the wheatfield with what appears to be wooden coat buttons. Another had shoes with hob nails. Did not see any shoes with heel plates (one possible but not conclusive). The picture of the three Confederate prisoners standing by the pile of fence rails is especially clear for the soldier on the left. He doesn't look very happy.

[hardtack1864]

Sorry for getting upset and one other reason I think it is a tomato is because I heard that during the antieam campaign the soldiers just had GREEN apples and corn to eat. Also today apples that big could most likely be that big in sept. with gene stuff, but back then I don't think so.

[Enfilade]

This closeup view should be seen relative to the cartridge box and not the supposed shoe. Then the apple(?) doesn't seem so enormous.

Jason, can you close in on the corpses? I would love to see the men more closely as I suspect they are members of the 14th NCT of Anderson's Brigade.(Many from my hometown)

And remember that the three-D affect makes closer shots look even bigger. Gardner's famous photograghs are truly amazing. This photo after which the 130th PA Volunteers had the grusome task of interring 138 of the piled up bodies where this closeup was taken of the aftermath. They were buried in a trench just north in a field adjacent to the road .

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[Jefferson Guards]

Along the same line with what Mark said, when viewed against the Cartridge box the piece of fruit does not look as big as it did before. Likewise the "haversack" looks incredibly small. I think that the “haversack” might just be an optical trick on some other kind of object.

[hardtack61]

I have to say that this pic. you have is very cool.

But, I dont think you could really tell what kind of apple
it is because there are alot of different kinds of apples. Maybe if you would look into the time period you could find out what types there were and you can go from there

[Masked Battery]

...Winesap.

[Chris Curtis]

What? No apple juice? We need equal representaion here!
Anyway- my vote is for apple.
Chris

[S.M.A. Smythers]

Being in the law enforcement community, I think the only reasonable solution is to conduct a line-up. Just imagine:

Grumpy detective: "Alright Farmer Miller, I realize your specialty is corn, but if you would take a look at the group of suspects and tell me if you have ever seen any of these before."

Farmer Miller: (excitedly pointing) "That's him! That's the one! I would know him anywhere. The waxy red skin. That bruised place. The way his stem is shaped. I'll never forget him for as long as I live."

As I've read this thread I've wondered if we should also debate whether the suspect piece of produce is male or a female dressed as a male. Oh wait a minute, that's the other thread.

Mike Randles
Tongue In Cheek Mess

[Nor'easter]

the hole in the center is manufactured. Clearly this is the wheel off a 1985 Tonka truck.......

[marlin teat]

Cornstalks or vines in the road........


“I got over a fence and like not to have gotten out again, the fence being high on the inside, built against a bank by the side of the road. But I got out with my grapes, they were good, too. I saw some gooseberries but they were to my tongue like eating needles; I did not know the nature of the berries green.”
William Judkins (same letter as previous qoute)
22nd Ga.
Wright's Brigade
Anderson's Division

[paulcalloway]

All these photos are sadly broken in this thread. Can we upload them and preserve this for later parousal?