Model F and Cooperman Grenadilla Fife

[modelf85]

I am considering purchasing a model F fife from www.beafifer.com because my cooperman rosewood rarely hits the High D. What I am asking is if any owners of the Model F fife (grenadilla) could please tell me what they are like and the sound of them? I have heard fifers from Vincents and the USV play them but I havent heard what they are like.

Also owners of the cooperman grenadilla model could you also please tell me what your fife is like?

Thank you

[verg]

I have found the Model F one the easiest playing reproduction fifes. When I was sponsoring a F/D group within Jackson's Division several years ago, it was the only fife we used. They had excellent intonation and played well ensemble. All of the fifers commented they could more easily play a note, or two, higher than the ones we used before. We routinely played tunes requiring high A above the D you are trying to hit . . .

I am considering purchasing a model F fife from www.beafifer.com because my cooperman rosewood rarely hits the High D. What I am asking is if any owners of the Model F fife (grenadilla) could please tell me what they are like and the sound of them? I have heard fifers from Vincents and the USV play them but I havent heard what they are like.

Also owners of the cooperman grenadilla model could you also please tell me what your fife is like?

Thank you

[theotherguy]

I am considering purchasing a model F fife from www.beafifer.com because my cooperman rosewood rarely hits the High D. What I am asking is if any owners of the Model F fife (grenadilla) could please tell me what they are like and the sound of them? I have heard fifers from Vincents and the USV play them but I havent heard what they are like.

Also owners of the cooperman grenadilla model could you also please tell me what your fife is like?

Thank you

I am completely satisfied with the model F Grenadilla that I bought. It is the easiest fife I have played next to an ebony that I have. The only concern I have is that lately I have read that its design is more like that of one made in the 1940-50s instead of a product of the mid 19th century. But to answer your question, it has a nice deep tone and it hits the high D every time.
Jay Hollenbeck

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Hi There,

The only concern I have is that lately I have read that its design is more like that of one made in the 1940-50s instead of a product of the mid 19th century.

Considering the above, why would you want a model F? It seems to me that it would be a reenactor compromise instead of learning on a more exact reproduction, just like the boys of '61 had to.

http://www.peelerfifes.com/fifes/

I'd rather go witht the firth and pond reproduction fifes. IMO, I think getting a super-kewl super-modern great playing fife is like taking a modern steel string guitar or a fretted banjo to an event and reasoning that it's "BASICALLY the same as the originals."

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather hear a fifer play fairly on a good reproduction fife than hear one play wonderfully on something much more modern. Good luck fifing, Hampton! I am in earnest,

[modelf85]

Well,

what Im going to do is play the peeler on the field as soon as I save up money for it. The Model F is on my christmas and that fife is for panhandling and concerts and junk.

[ThehosGendar]

The only concern I have is that lately I have read that its design is more like that of one made in the 1940-50s instead of a product of the mid 19th century.

Where did you read this?

Below are two fifes that date from the early to mid 19th century, from the Dayton C. Miller flute collection at the Library of Congress.

http://www.3nj.org/fife.jpg
Cocus, nickel silver end ferrules, ca. 1848-1858, with markings "WILLIAM HALL & SON / 239 BROADWAY / N-YORK / C".

http://www.3nj.org/fife2.jpg
Boxwood, brass end ferrules, ca. 1803 -1818, with markings "B // (eagle) / WM. CALLENDER / 62 MIDDLE S[T] / BOSTON".

And here is my Model F:
http://www.3nj.org/myfife1.jpg

As you can see, they look very, very similar.

While neither the Model F or the Peeler have an authentic marking, between the two, I would choose the Model F, for the stamping is often small and lightly made, and in a more authentic, serifed typeface, whereas the Peeler is a very modern, sans serifed typeface which is deeply laser engraved.

http://www.3nj.org/modelf.jpg

Now, time for the shameless plug. I love my Model F. I just got back from a muster at Fort Ticonderoga (Bully for the 1st NY!), and even after playing all day, the high Bs pop out like buttah and the low D gets a good honk.

[modelf85]

Jason,

Thank you very much for your post and I found the pictures very helpful and just one more question? Which would be better, the silver or brass ferrules?


P.S. You have a great website! I cant wait for your rev war section to open up.

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Hi all,

I dunno, maybe it's just my picky personality showing through or something. Personally, I'm not concerned much here about the outside of the instrument being accurate, because ANY reproduction won't be 100 percent. But what about the inside? I confess, I am not a flute maker, nor do I know what exactly goes into making one, but because the model F can hit such great notes, I suspect that some ultra perfect boring procedure was utilized to make it so. Is it possible that the original instruments were not that perfect? We can only guess, because not everyone has played enough originals to compare...all we have are pictures. It's another one of those dastardly compromises! I'd be interested to hear others' information on the fife construction process, and how it relates to modern reproductions. I am in earnest,

[modelf85]

Jeffrey,

About the fife making process, go to www.beafifer.com . Ed Boyle has tons of information on fifes and fife making.

Hope I helped,

[JKfifer119]

Hi all,

I dunno, maybe it's just my picky personality showing through or something. Personally, I'm not concerned much here about the outside of the instrument being accurate, because ANY reproduction won't be 100 percent. But what about the inside? I confess, I am not a flute maker, nor do I know what exactly goes into making one, but because the model F can hit such great notes, I suspect that some ultra perfect boring procedure was utilized to make it so. Is it possible that the original instruments were not that perfect? We can only guess, because not everyone has played enough originals to compare...all we have are pictures. It's another one of those dastardly compromises! I'd be interested to hear others' information on the fife construction process, and how it relates to modern reproductions. I am in earnest,

Right you are my good man....fifes were literally being cranked out.. anyone one with any kind of precision machinery (clock makers, wood workers as well as instrument makers) was knocking them out. an some folks were making them at home... but getting back to the difference betweena model f and a fife design from the mid and early 19th century... there are clear and obvious differences 1) the taper on the model F starts in the middle and narrows out to both ends , on the fifes of the ACW period the taper starts at the head near the mouth hole and tapers sharply to head and gradually to the foot end giving it a lopsided asymetrical look
2) tone hole spacing and size on model F as with most fifes designed after the late 19th century.. the holes are of varying sizes and often spaced in an a less than even fashion........in early fifes the holes are uniformly small and at even interevals

I have said this before ..why spend a small fortune on a kit that is painstakingly recreated from the original item and then settle for a fife
(albiet a good fife) that is copied from a design thats about 40 years old
The Model F is copied from the original Ferrary fife which was designed and manufactured starting in the late 1960's until the maker stopped some time in the late 70's early 80's
What Mr Peeler has done is taken an original, bonafide Firth and Pond and painstakingly reproduced it..
I have been playing for 24 years up here in the Northeast and I own alot of fifes.. Peeler is the only one thats copying an original from the period(that I have run across in a long time of fifing)
so unless your playing an original and I know some folks who do most other fifes are based on very modern post war designs including the model f

cheers
Joe Korber
119th NY (owner of 2 model F's but I don't use them in my impression :wink_smil )

[ThehosGendar]

Hampton,

Out of the 48 fifes in the Dayton C. Miller flute collection, 11 have brass ferrules and 11 have silver... so pick whatever strikes your fancy!

Jeffrey,

Fifes and concert flutes have been made the same way for hundreds of years - lathe turned for the body and drilled tone holes. There's really no other way to get about it, and the quality of instruments made then rival even those made now. The flutes made by Rudall & Rose of London and R.S. Pratten in the 1850s are still drooled over by tradition Irish flutists, and every maker of Irish flutes today copy their models. Matt Molloy, Seamus Egan, Tom Dorley all play copies (or, in the case of Molloy, original) Rudall & Roses and Prattens patterns. The craftsmanship is extraordinary.

I've played a few original fifes, and it is difficult to tell how they would have sounded new, though the ones I tried were in pretty rough shape. The bores were negelected over the years, and the inside was pretty dried out.

[theotherguy]

Hi There,



Considering the above, why would you want a model F? It seems to me that it would be a reenactor compromise instead of learning on a more exact reproduction, just like the boys of '61 had to.

http://www.peelerfifes.com/fifes/

I'd rather go witht the firth and pond reproduction fifes. IMO, I think getting a super-kewl super-modern great playing fife is like taking a modern steel string guitar or a fretted banjo to an event and reasoning that it's "BASICALLY the same as the originals."

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather hear a fifer play fairly on a good reproduction fife than hear one play wonderfully on something much more modern. Good luck fifing, Hampton! I am in earnest,

Yeah I agree if I would have known the difference I would have probably gone with a Peeler.

[theotherguy]

Where did you read this?

Below are two fifes that date from the early to mid 19th century, from the Dayton C. Miller flute collection at the Library of Congress.

http://www.3nj.org/fife.jpg
Cocus, nickel silver end ferrules, ca. 1848-1858, with markings "WILLIAM HALL & SON / 239 BROADWAY / N-YORK / C".

http://www.3nj.org/fife2.jpg
Boxwood, brass end ferrules, ca. 1803 -1818, with markings "B // (eagle) / WM. CALLENDER / 62 MIDDLE S[T] / BOSTON".

And here is my Model F:
http://www.3nj.org/myfife1.jpg

As you can see, they look very, very similar.

While neither the Model F or the Peeler have an authentic marking, between the two, I would choose the Model F, for the stamping is often small and lightly made, and in a more authentic, serifed typeface, whereas the Peeler is a very modern, sans serifed typeface which is deeply laser engraved.

http://www.3nj.org/modelf.jpg

Now, time for the shameless plug. I love my Model F. I just got back from a muster at Fort Ticonderoga (Bully for the 1st NY!), and even after playing all day, the high Bs pop out like buttah and the low D gets a good honk.

I think it was the Peeler website.

[aplett]

I have a model F and am perfectly content with it. My personal preference is for better playing quality, and I've never seen or heard a Peeler, so cannot comment on it.

I think all of us would like a fife that both plays well and is of an authentic period design. So why don't we start emailing Ed Boyle(maker of model Fs) to start making some more authentic instruments, and ask Peeler to make some better playing ones? Since we're their source of income, I'm sure they'd pay attention, especially if a bunch of us start contacting them.

A question for someone from Camp Chase: what fifes do you use?

Andrew Plett
Oregon Fife & Drum Corps
116th Penn. Vol. Inf. Co. B

[modelf85]

I know one guy from camp chase and I think he said he uses some 200 dollar fife most likely a heely. I just checked in arms and equipment of the union in echoes of glory and the fife on page 238 resembles one of Ed boyles short ferruled fifes and its not like it doesnt "look" authentic because there were long ferruled fifes in the WBTS its just the inside like the boring and other things.

[FederalDrummerBoy]

Hello everyone,
Camp Chase uses a mixture of model Fs, peelers, and others. Infact I was playing a peeler today! Both of the two are great fifes.
__________
Alex Kuhn
CCFD

[Hurl]

For the record: Ed Boyle does not make the Model F fife, he just markets them. I could tell you who DOES make them, but then ... well, you know.
Regards,
Steve Hurlbut

[2MDF&D]

Jason,

[QUOTE]Thank you very much for your post and I found the pictures very helpful and just one more question? Which would be better, the silver or brass ferrules?

I agree with Jason wholeheartedly.

We use Model F's/or originals. Brass ferules on the Model F's (customised). IMHO the Model F's are the best playing and sounding of the modern made fifes for the money. (by what all the fifers say in the group) For the most part, originals in good shape sound the best. Cloos, Cloos-Crosby, whatever it may be. They vary slightly in sound, too. Gives a nice mixture of tonalities. We have C fifes on hand as well to mix it up on occasion. Brutal. But, you'd think the C fifes would be more piercing or louder? They're not. We did a test at Cashtown one year and found out the Bb's are louder and carry further. Obviously due to lower frequency which are longer and carry further distances. They still be loud and piercing standing next to 'em (C's). I'll tell ya, my little original C fife will rip the top of your head off and jam your eyeballs into your sinuses! Don't play "Hog Eye Man" on it! Holy He%$! Whew!
Hope this helps. We are satisfied with the Model F's.

Regards,
Robbie McFarland
Snare
2MD Fifes and Drums

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Hello everyone,

I may be casting a bit more than just .02 on the subject here, but here goes. I think this is an interesting topic. In authentic reenacting we have the highest uniform and gear standards, but when it gets to music, we settle for modern compromises, it seems. I think we need to ask ourselves, what is more important, being a musician or being a reenactor? The two have different priorities, to wit; the serious musician would acquire the best playing instrument he could find, while the serious reenactor would acquire the most accurate instrument he could find. We agonize over the cut of the collar on a fatigue blouse, we count stitches in cartridge boxes, we plow through stacks of books and documents to research things like shoelace dimensions and oilcloth recipes, and yet we play on super modern fifes? It’s a fact that the model F’s are definitely not the most accurate reproductions. It’s also a fact that there are more accurate reproductions out there. Yet so many fifers opt for the one that plays the best, without regard to historical accuracy. Why? It seems like “Well, we’re not sure exactly what the originals played/sounded like, but we sure know what’s good now!”

I am humbly,

[theotherguy]

[QUOTE=2MDF&D]I agree with Jason wholeheartedly.

We use Model F's/or originals. Brass ferules on the Model F's (customised). IMHO the Model F's are the best playing and sounding of the modern made fifes for the money. (by what all the fifers say in the group) For the most part, originals in good shape sound the best. Cloos, Cloos-Crosby, whatever it may be. They vary slightly in sound, too. Gives a nice mixture of tonalities. We have C fifes on hand as well to mix it up on occasion. Brutal. But, you'd think the C fifes would be more piercing or louder? They're not. We did a test at Cashtown one year and found out the Bb's are louder and carry further. Obviously due to lower frequency which are longer and carry further distances. They still be loud and piercing standing next to 'em (C's). I'll tell ya, my little original C fife will rip the top of your head off and jam your eyeballs into your sinuses! Don't play "Hog Eye Man" on it! Holy He%$! Whew!
Hope this helps. We are satisfied with the Model F's.

Regards,
Robbie McFarland
Snare
2MD Fifes and Drum


The original c I have plays exactly like you have stated also. WOW!!!!!
Jay Hollenbeck

[verg]

For those interested in scholarly works on the topic, I would suggest the works of a musicologist, Dr. Lloyd Farrar (Norrisville,TN) One of particular interest might be: The American Fife and Its Makers. Woodwind Quarterly, vol 12. Farrar is a noted music historian and the University of Illinois has large collections named for him. Although he is mostly known for his works on brass instruments, he has spent decades studying 18th and 19th C military music. He has a phenominal collection of original fife and drum manuals. Farrar has studied and measured fifes for years as well as running down the makers and their companies. Do a Google search, you'll find publications, collections and lectures announcements.

For what it is worth, he is/was a believer that all this research is useless unless people hear the music live - in proper kit . . . on drums with skin heads, linen rope and proper strainers with heavy telephone pole like sticks . . . one of the first morning sounds in camp would be the quiet tapping of the drummers as they slowly and carefully dried their night-air soaked drum heads by the fire prior to playing drums call . . .

[markj]

Piggybacking on the above comments, you can find a complete, itemized listing of Woodwind Quarterly issues at this site. All back issues are available for a reasonable price and Issues 10 & 11 also contain fife-related articles:

http://www.musictrader.com/wwqindex.html#12

Here is a University of Illinois-Champaign listing for the LLoyd Farrar Collection. However, I'm not sure it includes fifes:

http://web.library.uiuc.edu/ahx/uaccard/UAControlCard.asp?RG=12&SG=9&RS=92

However the Carl Busch Collection, also at UI-Champaign (90 minutes west of where I live in Indiana) does contain fifes:

http://web.library.uiuc.edu/ahx/uaccard/UAControlCard.asp?RG=12&SG=9&RS=91&highlight=Musical%20Instrument%20Collections

Looks like it's time for a "road trip....."

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[verg]

Someone might want to call or write Dr Farrar. I would bet he would talk your ear off

[verg]

Found more on the collection holdings . . .

(http://www.library.uiuc.edu/sousa/additional.htm#FARRAR)

The Patuxent Martial Musick Collection

In September of 1995 Lloyd and Doris Farrar and Jean Farrar Munn donated funds to establish a fellowship in honor of their fathers who had served as faculty members of the University of Illinois College of Agriculture and the College of Law. . . . The assistant will have the opportunity to arrange, describe, and study instruments in the Patuxent Martial Musick Collection for two years and to produce a monograph about a portion of the collection. Dr. Farrar also donated his collection of more than 800 musical instruments and files regarding the provenance of the instruments to the Sousa Archives. In February, 1996 Dr. Farrar presented 18 cubic feet of instrumental solo and ensemble music and orchestral scores to the University of Illinois Music Library. The Patuxent Martial Musick Collection will reside at the University of Illinois by the year 2000.

[fiferjackdoyle]

FYI - The "silver" fife ferrules most commonly seen on 19th Century fifes are German Silver which is actually nickel.

Peeler - his Firth & Pond reproduction has ferrules of German Silver.
Model F - Model F ferrules come in brass or chrome, not silver.

Both play well. I love my two Model F's and my two Peelers (one with authentic finger-holes and one with modern finger-holes).

Thehos mentioned his Model F looked like the pictures of the 19th Century fifes. True at first glance. Looking closer at mid-19th Century fifes, and I've been collecting and studying them for over 30 years, you'll see the finger holes are all the same size. The Model F has varying sized finger holes, a modification made after the ACW to get a truer pitch. W.Crosby Boston fifes, Firth, Pond & Co., William Hall & Son fifes from the Civil War era all have the same sized holes. They also have a noticable taper, widest at the embouchure and narrowing toward both ends. Finally, ACW era fifes tend to have a distinctive ferrule style with two incribed lines on either end and a center inscribed line with two dimples on the center line pressed into the ferrule to hold it in place if the wood shrinks. Peeler's Firth & Pond repro with the old finger-hole style has all these features.

All this talk about fifes makes me wonder about drums.

Things such as plastic heads, muffler straps, synthetic rope, laminated ply shells weren't used during the ACW. Solid shells and unmuffled calfskin were. New thread needed for that discussion

Jack Doyle

[joewhitney]

Haven't been to this forum in a while (months? years?) but thought I'd throw some more fuel on the fire. To "authentic campaigners", a fife's outward appearance is much more important than to modern F&D corps players or mainstream reenactors. At this time, there is only one repro fife that bears a strong resemblance to most original Civil War fifes, and that is Ron Peeler's "Firth Pond & Co." reproduction (by the way, none of the originals was marked Firth AND Pond). The Model F, while generally being an excellent player, unfortunately swells at the center rather than at the blowhole, significantly altering its appearance in comparison to 19th century fifes.

To concur and expound on earlier comments, Peeler's "Model FP", is made to the exact same measurements as an original FP&C fife. It has authentic same-sized finger holes. It has authentic end ferrules as well, the top one about 1/4 inch shorter than the bottom, and 5 rings (not hash marks) on them scored in the 2-1-2 pattern most common in original CW fifes.

However, the rings are cut a little too deep, wide and perfect compared to originals. This could be remedied by ordering them unscored, and carefully scoring them with a cheap pipe cutter from the hardware store (but don't cut too deep, and don't dent the wood!) Remember to then use a very small hole punch or nail set to replicate the tiny dimples that were lightly punched on the ferrules to help keep them from falling off. Tap one tiny dimple on either side of each ferrule, through the center ring. Some makers of 19th century fifes put three dimples per ferrule, but that was rare.

I did the above modifications to the 2nd MD's Model F's (which came from Leo Brennan, but like Ed Boyle's Model F's were made by someone else). I also drilled out the finger holes to the same width, with no noticeable effect on the tone other than to make them louder. This can be done (carefully!) with any repro fife with varying width finger holes, but remember, bigger holes mean more air passing through, so you have to take a breath much more often. Also, altering only one or some of the fifes in a corps might throw off the overall group sound. Also also, most period fifes actually had small holes compared to repro fifes (except Peeler's).

Another issue is that they are marked PEELER rather than FIRTH POND & CO. / 547 BROADWAY / N-YORK like the originals. Since it's etched pretty deep, there's not much you can do about that. When I suggested to Ron he copy Firth-Ponds (he was originally planning on copying Cloos-Crosby fifes), I recommended he also copy the maker's mark. Not being a reenactor, he wasn't aware how much we value replicating maker's marks, and I think he was afraid they might later be confused with originals (by clueless ebayers maybe, but not by reenactors!). I also think he signs them partly out of pride of workmanship. You could ask him to make yours without a maker's mark, but I don't know how he would react to that. I do have several unmarked original FP copies in my collection, so an unmarked FP copy would be very authentic.

Some early Peeler Model FP's had problems with roughness in the bore, but most repro fifes, including Model F's, have had the same problem to varying degrees. Sometimes it looks like the maker just didn't drill and/or sand the wood smooth inside. Other times it looks like the finish may have picked up dust and stuff while drying. To remedy, pop the cork out and look through the bore at a light bulb. If it's not super smooth, run a small ball of #0000 super fine steel wool back and forth through it with dowel rods (round down the dowel ends first, or you will gouge the bore!) Then seal the bore by running through it a small ball of cloth soaked in a little bit of a good finish (I use Minwax Antique Oil Finish, which is 2/3 linseed oil with drying agents). Repeat as necessary, drying between coats, to get a smooth bore (much smoother than bare wood) that will let the air flow cleanly through, giving you the clearest tone and loudest volume (you should even be able to hit that high D).

Since the bores on all my fifes are protected with a finish, I've never put any type of oil in them, nor seen a need to. Liquid oil being blown around inside a fife just doesn't strike me as conducive to clean, uniform air flow.

I agree that the ratio of brass ferrules to German silver were about 50/50 based on surviving samples. As for key, also about 50/50. In fact, some Union regiments were issued both Bb and C fifes at the same time. "German Silver" (also called White Nickel Brass), is a copper-nickel-zinc alloy, but you won't see it described as German Silver on American goods anymore because the FTC prohibited the use of the term for any metal not specifically containing silver.

Joe,

Forum rules require you to sign your FULL name to your posts. You promised to read/acknowledge/abide our rules when you applied to our forum.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034 (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034)

Please consider this your First Warning

Scott McKay, moderator
Authentic Campaigner Forums<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[markj]

For those who have not seen the Dayton C. Miller Fife Collection yet, here is an online exhibit of various fifes held by the Library of Congress:

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dcmhtml/dmhome.html

(Just type in the key word "fife")

Incidentally, I also have xeroxed copies of the Farrar articles about historical fifes and their makers.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger