Frock coat pattern?

[hardtack1864]

I need to know where I can pick up a authentic pattern for a size 46 Federal Frock coat and where to pick up the piping for it too. I have tried county cloth, but they do not seem to have the pattern or piping. Thank you.

[Jefferson Guards]

I don't know where you could find a pattern, but I do know that Wooded Hamlet sells the piping. You can pick it up at their retail location at Family Heirloom Weavers in Gettysburg or go to their website www.woodedhamlet.com (http://www.woodedhamlet.com).

[JCbluegrassrifles]

A frock coat pattern is a very prisitne item. Nobody that has a good one will let it out. That is why frocks are so expensive. Because those that make the good ones have done the research and refuse to let their work be sold. For some reason, frocks seem to be 'diamonds in the rough' when it comes to garments. County Cloth will not sell frock patterns. The only thing you can do is buy a kit and trace the pieces for your own pattern. I have seen frock patterns available, but the sources have not been very reliable. The previous response was good enough to mention piping. Wooded Hamlet provides some of the best. But again with the pattern, I don't believe that one will present itself to you. It is unfortunate. The best I can do is say good luck.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Making a frock is not for the weak of heart. Fed frocks cost a alot because they are very difficult to make and the correct materials are also very expensive. Good luck finding alpaca to line it with.

[NY Pvt]

I know this should probably be in the vendor section but who else makes good federal frock coats besides the obvious Chris Daley and Nick ************. Is there anyone?

Thanks.

[Jefferson Guards]

I have a nice one by Pat Brown.

[NY Pvt]

Brian,

Thanks. But I guess I don't need one anymore (atleast right now), since Reams Station is now cancelled. :(

[Michael McComas]

County Cloth doesn't sell a frock coat pattern because Mr. Childs doesn't really use one. He drafts each kit on the cloth based on the customer's measurements. If you look on the wrong side of the cloth on some of his kits, you'll see where he's adjusted a curve or added to a line. That's just a hint of the custom work that goes into a frock coat kit. He is really a master of the art.

As for patterns, Homespun makes a pattern, but I confess I have no first-hand knowledge of how good or poor it is. Their single-breasted CS frock coat requires considerable experience and a knack for alteration to make correctly, but it's not an insurmountable task. In their favor, their frock patterns do adhere closely to their published chest and waist dimensions, which many patterns do not.

If you really want to make one, by all means, go for it, and ask questions here as you go. Research the garment as much as you can, and definitely make a fitting muslin first (directions for doing so are in the pattern), and do a first run on cheap cloth before you try to make the real thing. I'm of the "nothing ventured, nothing gained" school of sewing. You'll learn from the fitting muslin what doesn't fit and how to correct it. You'll learn from the cheap practice garment what problems you may have during the assembly. If you're not comfortable after doing your practice garment, do another practice run.

Good luck, and keep us posted on your progress!

[tarwater_mess]

Frock coats are indeed a bit tricky to properly make up. The correct material is somewhat expensive, the trims need to be dyed using indigo, interior chest area is padded and quilted to hold it in place. You must be skilled with handworked buttonholes to properly complete the coat.

Only a few existing Enlisted Uniform Coats are left in public and private collections making it difficult to copy them.



GOOD LUCK

[Matt Caldwell]

Brian,

Thanks. But I guess I don't need one anymore (atleast right now), since Reams Station is now cancelled. :(

Where did you hear that as I can not find anything to support this claim.
Thanks,

[SGulley]

What gives?

[NY Pvt]

Matt and Scott,

I read it on the CWreenactors forum in the General Discussion. Here is what it said:

The below is an official announcement from the Reams 2004 Planning Committe.
To all my fellow Campaigners & Preservationists,

I am unfortunately using this letter to announce the postponement of the 2004 Reams Station Preservation March, which was schedule for October 21-23, 2004. This event, which was shaping up to be a grand effort, has unfortunately been stalled by many circumstances beyond the control of the planning committee. I would like to take time to think the time and effort put into this event by those on the committee and the military staffs. Hopefully, this event will be rescheduled at a future date, but at this time no date is forthcoming. So, thank you again and here is to a great year in 2004.

Respectfully,

Reams Station Planning Committee for the
Petersburg City Guard

posted by Brian McPeters, formerly Reams Event Coordinator

[fidlr1]

I know this should probably be in the vendor section but who else makes good federal frock coats besides the obvious Chris Daley and Nick ************. Is there anyone?

Thanks.

I've made three, sold two & wear one myself. Both recipients were satisfied with 'em. The Homespun Pattern is a good place to start but I've found some modification necessary. The tricky part is getting a good fit. Lotsa work in these, which I figure is one reason they were replaced with the much simpler fatigue blouse when the army started massive increases in personnel once the war started. Contact me off-list if you're interested.

[Will Eichler]

Hi,

My experience with the Homespun patterns is that in the larger sizes (I wear a 46 too) the grading goes quite astray. I have a friend who does period patterning and she had to help me quite a bit to get the pattern to work. They are graded evenly over all parts of the body which makes parts like the shoulder seam (from your neck to the edge of the shoulder) be way too long.

If you have the help of a very experienced person, Homespun may be a good starting point. However, if you're still new to sewing, I would steer clear of it.

Just my experience.

Cheers,

Will Eichler
Botsford Mess

[SGulley]

Thanks Dane.

[Clark Badgett]

So just who custom tailored these garments to fit the original soldiers like a glove? Most images I've seen have the coats kinda minorly ill fitting like most everything else they recieved. Yes frocks are a bit harder to construct, but not hard enough to warrant paying exhorbitant prices for them.

[Tom Ezell]

So just who custom tailored these garments to fit the original soldiers like a glove? Most images I've seen have the coats kinda minorly ill fitting like most everything else they recieved. Yes frocks are a bit harder to construct, but not hard enough to warrant paying exhorbitant prices for them.

Clark:

Contrary to popular belief, the Army issued only two sizes of uniforms: 2 Large and 2 Small. Not surprisingly, that's a custom of the service that they still uphold today. That being the case, it's up to the individual soldier to get his stuff altered for a suitable fit. Nowadays we take them to the AAFES pick-up point to get them fitted, back then most companies had men who had worked at tailoring in civilian life, and who for some consideration would make the appropriate tucks or let out seams here and there to get an appropriate fit.

Issue uniforms were produced in standard sizes, and if you fell somewhere in between those measurements, you needed to do something about that...

Tom

[Michael McComas]

Yes frocks are a bit harder to construct, but not hard enough to warrant paying exhorbitant prices for them.

Mr. Badgett, could you expound upon the economics of making a frock coat?

[James Masson]

I think someone did the math before, on the old site. Working only at minimum wage, with the raw materials included, I think the numbers came out at around something like $900-1,000. Unless I'm not mistaken and someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Considering that most quality frocks sell for less than $500, you can see that someone (the tailors) aren't really getting back all of what they invested. They're working for much less than minimum wage, something in the neighbourhood of $2-3 an hours.

[LibertyHallVols]

Frock coats require more labor for several reasons.
There's just "more" to do. Going from jacket to frock, one adds padding to the chest, quilting, the skirt, tail pockets, etc. For a Federal enlisted frock, you must add the complexity of piping and additional buttonholes on the cuff.

Even if one is not daunted by the complexity, a frock simply requires more work to complete.

[fidlr1]

[QUOTE=Will Eichler]Hi,

My experience with the Homespun patterns is that in the larger sizes (I wear a 46 too) the grading goes quite astray. I have a friend who does period patterning and she had to help me quite a bit to get the pattern to work. They are graded evenly over all parts of the body which makes parts like the shoulder seam (from your neck to the edge of the shoulder) be way too long.

If you have the help of a very experienced person, Homespun may be a good starting point. However, if you're still new to sewing, I would steer clear of it.

I think they get the back piece too wide where it joins the shoulder seam, also to get a good fit the back pieces need to be kept narrow at the waist, size adjustment should be done at the side seams. For making a good frock, period books such as "Complete Guide to Practical Cutting" can be helpful.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Frock coats require more labor for several reasons.
There's just "more" to do. Going from jacket to frock, one adds padding to the chest, quilting, the skirt, tail pockets, etc. For a Federal enlisted frock, you must add the complexity of piping and additional buttonholes on the cuff.

Even if one is not daunted by the complexity, a frock simply requires more work to complete.


Not to mention getting the near impossible to find correct material, and then making it all line up properly. To top that off, larger reenactor sizes are really hard to do.

[hardtack1864]

Now did all Federal frock coats and federal jackets have the padding in the cheast or did it vary? Also what were some common linings in Frocks and jackets?

[LibertyHallVols]

Check out some originals at John Wedeward's site:
http://www2.inxpress.net/jwedeward/original_frock_coat.htm

Best Regards,

[Rooney]

Good luck finding alpaca to line it with.


A few months ago, I spoke to Pat Kline at Family Heirloom Weavers, he had material which he called alpaca...this might be the material to line a frock with.


Richard Kroon

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Attn: Textile wizards...

What exactly is alpaca? I know that the Alpaca is a close relative to the Llama,

http://www.alsashow.org/

but I'm pretty sure that's not what I ned to line a frock, their fur is pretty thick... ;)

I am in earnest,

[markmason]

Alpaca was very commonly used for linings. very inexpensive and very common in both officers and enlisted coats.

Properly lined and padded requires lining, buckram, wool batting, buckrum, layered in that order. The whole thing placed in a sewing machine and quilted, afterwards placing this quilted lining into the coat.

mark mason

[markmason]

just a quick thought.. though these things can be learned through desire and want, I do not recommend an attempt to construct a frock coat unless you have some solid sewing skills....setting pockets into skirts, working cuff vents and setting the lining in is tricky enough without attempting the piping and hand worked buttonholes. :(

OK I will crawl back into my corner and shut up now.


peace

mark mason

[Jeffrey Przewozniak]

Great info!

but...

What exactly is it? How is it woven? Is it a fine cotton? Is it something like polished cotton? You know, one would think that half the problem with finding a period fabric is that it's now known by a different name. Is this the case here? I am in earnest,

[Clark Badgett]

I'm like you. I've seen it mentioned several times, and find it hard to think it is wool, but it may be. The 2 artillery frocks I've looked at, had linings that LOOKED like black linen, but seeing how nothing else from that era is what it appears to be today, it probably ain't.

Frocks are definately not for beginers, but they aren't as hard as some of the other things I've sewn. But on that point I digress, one of my pards sews very well and won't even attempt trowsers, even though I find them quite easy to sew.

[Hank Trent]

Alpaca is woven from the fleece of the alpaca, just like wool is woven from the fleece of sheep. It had a very fine, hard finish, same as you can get with wool today if you want. I just bought some black wool twill sold as "Italian superfine" with the same general kind of smooth finish, though of course it's wool and not alpaca.

The original examples I've seen have generally faded to two different colors, greenish black in the weft and brown in the warp (from memory--I might have got those reversed). It's possible they were actually two different colors to begin with, but I'm betting the green was at least black. So I'm wondering if the original fabric was an alpaca weft, woven in a twill with the float to put most of the alpaca on the surface, and some other warp. Anyone know?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[pvt_dirty]

for aplaca you might find this place can help out here is there web site just found there site today looks like they have some nice blankets too
http://www.pineledgefiberstudio.com
hope this helps
your pard
Tyler Goodrich
Soon to be rowdy pard
once back from Iraq

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I'm like you. I've seen it mentioned several times, and find it hard to think it is wool, but it may be. The 2 artillery frocks I've looked at, had linings that LOOKED like black linen, but seeing how nothing else from that era is what it appears to be today, it probably ain't.

Frocks are definately not for beginers, but they aren't as hard as some of the other things I've sewn. But on that point I digress, one of my pards sews very well and won't even attempt trowsers, even though I find them quite easy to sew.


Clark

What you described is black alpaca. It often has a greenish cast today. To my knowledge there is only one correct pattern in entire country and it is closely guarded by three to four people. It was drafted from a dissasembled original back when there were originals aplenty to do this to.

[Clark Badgett]

Oh that I know Robert, that I know. Ain't nothing like having a little corner on the market. But I got a secret I ain't tellin yet. :D

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Oh that I know Robert, that I know. Ain't nothing like having a little corner on the market. But I got a secret I ain't tellin yet. :D


Me too. :cool:

[markmason]

Clark

To my knowledge there is only one correct pattern in entire country and it is closely guarded by three to four people. It was drafted from a dissasembled original back when there were originals aplenty to do this to.


Highly over rated.

Mark Mason
Tarwater Mess

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Highly over rated.

Mark Mason
Tarwater Mess

Mark
Im interested to hear your reasons as to why you feel this. Feel free to contact me off forum. keepnhoakalive@yahoo.com