Odd cartridge box

[rogue]

This box turned up in southern Ohio. Black leather, no tins, and the implement pouch flap is gone. The front flap is folded at the outer edge and sewn. The box has belt loops only, no provision for a sling mount. Closing tab is sewn in the center of the front flap with a round of decorative stitching. Brass closing thingee. No rivets, all sewn construction. Sewing on non-exposed seams is a loose ten stitches or so per inch.
Pre-War militia?
Steve Sullivan
46th Illinois
Co. Mil. Hist. :confused:

[Iron Scout]

Steve,

I can honestly say I, personally, have never seen anything like the box. It's very odd to have the closure tab sewn that high up and with the circular pattern of stitiching. With CS leather, the circular pattern of stitching is usually seen on English imported holsters and a few other items. I also find it interesting there are no rivets, etc. It looks like the box has been worn on the belt too for some time but it's hard to tell. Likewise, bound edges on a box certainly are a rarity. I dunno, but nonetheless, an interesting item. Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA
L&W

[Enfilade]

I'm with you Neill. It's interseting but there's nothing else like it out there that I've seen from our period. :confused_ Maybe if you could give us the dimensions???

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

For what it's worth, is there any chance this is a repro made during the centennial? Any good provenance on the box? Being that it is sans tins and with belt loops only, I would be more inclined to suspect it being a post-war box, perhaps from the 1870's where the army was experimenting with belt boxes and wooden blocks for the new mettalic cartridge rifles.
Anyway, that's my two-cent's worth on the item:)
respects,

[rogue]

Numbers, I am remiss.
The box body measures 7 1/4 wide (front) by 5 3/4 (front) high.
The body is 1 3/4 wide (side).
The flap measures 8 inches wide across the front.
The impliment pouch flap is missing, but the pouch itself measures 6 1/4 by 3 1/2 inches.
I can see no indication if the box ever held a wooden block or tins, it has been empty for a great number of years, and there is no obvious wear on the interior that would suggest tins or a block.
The underside of the exterior flap has almost a "pie-edge" scallop to the leather, showing evidence of great care to fold and sew the leather "just-so".
The impliment pouch flap and the joint where the front flap is sewn to the body on the reverse has very widely spaced stitches (about six stitches per inch), work that would not be seen when the box was worn.
The exposed stitching elsewhere is of a finer nature, 10 to 12 stitches per inch.
I obtained this box in a trade for a used Armi-Sport model '61 Springfield destined to make an appearence at the 140th Franklin in October. It came through a "picker" in southern Ohio.
I appreciate all of the suggestions, my references on this period (pre and post War) are at an end.
Thanhk you,
Steve Sullivan
46th Illinois
Co. Mil. Hist.

[neocelt]

Steve,

OK, a little late with my comments, but that's life...

I concur that this looks nothing like any contemporary American box I've ever seen. For reasons that I can only attribute to my "gut" (and over 30 years of eyeballing 19th c. martial 'couts), it seems to have a certain European flavor. Could easily be a European box, circa 1840s-1870s (there were quite a few dust-ups on the Continent during this time frame!). My two-cents worth--your mileage may vary...

Cheers,

[Johan Steele]

I suspect you might have a French Army Cartridge box; it looks similar in construction to an original w/ provence from 1860's Mexico that I looked at a month or so ago. The stitching you describe is consistent w/ what I saw though I cannot recall the closure looking quite like that... though your specimen is in considerably better condition than what I was looking at. Is there any evidence of a red trim or a red tint to the stitching on the flap? That was a distinctive piece of the French Cartridge box I looked at.

Don't know if that helped any...

[estephenson]

The 9th NY had a cartridge box very similar to this one. The cracking of the leather is from the patent leather process and is the same as the hard frame knapsacks out there. It screams Militia use to me.