Cavalry School?

[aloysboy]

Would people want to learn to ride, shoot and sabre drill off trained horses for a week in a civil war style training camp if we offered one ?Kevin Kaup

[Will Eichler]

To answer this question, I guess we need some back ground.

-Who is the we?
-Are you riding instructors? What discipline?
-What level riding proficiency would the student need to posess before the weekend? I've taken dressage lessons for 18 months and would only now think about attending an event on a mount.
-Where would the school be located?
-What are the costs?

If you could provide answers to these questions, it would help. I'm interested in the general concept, but it does raise almost as many questions as answers.

Best,

Will Eichler

[1st Maine Trooper]

Would people want to learn to ride, shoot and sabre drill off trained horses for a week in a civil war style training camp if we offered one ?Kevin Kaup
I would be very curious to know how you propose to do this on an AUTHENTIC level.
In addition to the questions Will raised, how about these:
What drill manual will you teach?
Which weapons will you teach?
Will you teach how to live out of the saddle or would it be from a fixed camp?

Dave Myrick

[T.Kern]

I only know a handful of people who could pull this off without doing the re enactor folklore nonsense.

what needs to be covered very badly is the proper fit of the saddle and bridle, fighting at appropriate distances not re enactor distances, how to properly pack the saddle and carry all one needs without unbalancing the saddle,... so much more. Even simple things like how to properly draw the sabre as the manual prescribes, no one seems to be able to do this simple instruction.
I have often thought of doing a camp like this but who would want to pay, reenactors are notoriously cheap. I've even done some camps of instruction for several groups but it was casting pearls before swine. They seemed to forget all that was taught and went back to their lazy reenactor ways as soon as you told them boots and saddles.


Todd Kern

[Mike Nickerson]

Todd, to hear some of the 1st. Maine boys talk, they gave a little schoolin' at the Hodge's Preservation March. Is that true, especially after I was talking ya'll up so much? :wink_smil

http://uhlan.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&thread=1160012564&page=1

Mike Nickerson

[VaTrooper]

Mike,
Them 1st Maine fellas sure were thougher than any other Federal group I've engaged but I cant really say that they taught me anything special.

[Mike Nickerson]

Well there are always two sides to every story! I say next year it is Jerry Todd's hat that needs capturing! In fact, I will pledge the $50 bounty on it right now!

Mike Nickerson

[Guy Gane III]

And to think I almost went with John Nolan!!! (The Hodge Pres. March) UGH! I hate work! haha.

I think the concept of teaching people how to ride, etc. is amazing and something that I sure know very few people know how to do. Especially up here in Western New York. :confused_ I was lucky enough to learn it all from my father, minus the manuevers. :cool:

Mounted cavalry is what I predict will in the (hopefully) far, far, far future to take a major decline even from where the numbers are currently. It is so sad, because most of our CW pards either don't own a horse or don't know how to ride, etc. or some combination of all of the above.

Depending on how you set up your 'school' and teach your class, it could be a worthwhile effort. Hell, if I lived anywhere near Neb. I would attend it.

Cheers,

[VaTrooper]

Mike,

Yea we had some wind gust that had to be in the 50mhp range so hats were flying around pretty often, unless you went with he kepi and functional chin strap approach.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Guy,
If you want a chance to ride with us some time just let me know. We don't eat our new guys, but I've heard some nasty rumors about the rebs. ;p
William,
Yours wasn't the hat that came off and got stepped on twice was it? Funny thing is, I don't remember any of us Federal loosing our hats.......hmmmm.

All in good fun,
Dave Myrick

[10nycav]

Mine was one of the hats that came off . . . I had ordered a cap (with functional chin strap) but it came in the day after I left for the event, so I was riding with a borrowed hat that did not fit very well. I kept jamming it down on my head, and by mid-day it decided to stay put . . .

Seriously, it seems at regards a school there are several major "courses of study." One is basic riding and the military seat. That is something folks can work on at home . . . find a GOOD instructor who teaches classical dressage; bring him or her the pertinent portions of Poinsett or Cooke describing the military seat so that the instruction can be modified as needed. Someone well versed in classical dressage will have no difficulty understand the instructions in the manuals. The mid 19th century military seat is very close to a classical dressage seat so instruction in this realm cannot fail to be helpful. Back home I arrange for group lessons once a month with a good riding instructor. Besides the basic seat we work on simple gymnastics, stuff like trot poles and cavaletti (in formation) and small jumps (also taken in formation.) Since basic riding instruction is something that most people can avail themselves of at home, I would recommend publishing guidelines for prospective participants on the basic skills they need to have, but focus on other instruction that is harder to get at home.

A second major area is all of the day to day things that are so important when on the march. As Todd says, saddle and bit fit, packing, etc. Also horse management while on the march.

A third major area is the use of a saber. This is something where qualified mounted instructors are few and far between, and as a result this is a serious area of deficiency in many folks' impressions (mine included). This is something where bringing in an expert for a training event would be very helpful.

As for reenactors being cheap, yeah I have seen that too. Best thing I can advise is set something up with good qualified instructors, make their qualifications known to prospective participants, and get the tuition up front from participants. Do this far enough in advance so that the instructors have plenty of advance warning if the class will not be a go. (And instructors should get paid, and paid well in my opinion. Many people have been very generous with their time, and they have my undying gratitude, but people who have real world qualifications are professionals and they should be treated as such.)

Sincerely,
Ken Morris

Guy,
If you want a chance to ride with us some time just let me know. We don't eat our new guys, but I've heard some nasty rumors about the rebs. ;p
William,
Yours wasn't the hat that came off and got stepped on twice was it? Funny thing is, I don't remember any of us Federal loosing our hats.......hmmmm.

All in good fun,
Dave Myrick

[Wild Rover]

Gents,

It has worked for various schools and different Infantry and Artillery Schools/Camps of Instruction.

I think it is time such happens, and would be glad to help on the admin side, Lord knows I am far from being a horseman.

Besides, I learned a ton at the past Artillery School, and would love to learn more about the Mounted Arm...and I have a few decent sites in the old back pocket... :)

Pards,

[VaTrooper]

Dave,
Na wasnt me. As seen in my avatar Im a firm believer in the chin strap..

[GeraldTodd]

Well there are always two sides to every story! I say next year it is Jerry Todd's hat that needs capturing! In fact, I will pledge the $50 bounty on it right now!

Can I turn it in myself for the bounty?

Please note: I breathed not one word in the open about the whole incident as it is simply poor manners to boast at chance as if it were talent.

Regarding "cavalry training"

Who is the target audiance?
Current cavalry reenactors? Prospective ones? non-cavalry types wanting to expand their experience base? Infantry officers, and leadership types wanting to get a better understanding of cavalry's capabilities?

The problem I've found with such things is trying to cram too much into a short time span, and not having a focus on what your trying to teach and to whom. The whole thing gets watered down into a marching and skirmish drill.

You could dedicate an entire weekend to nothing but the use of the legs and still have plenty to cover on that subject alone.

Some points that should be covered:

Being MILITARY
Proper manual of arms; mounted and dismounted.
Fitting the saddle and bridle.
Packing the effects.
Mounting and dismounting.
Conditioning of horse and rider.
Care of the horse in the field.
Being a cavalryman on campaign.

to be continued....

[Mike Nickerson]

Can I turn it in myself for the bounty?


Heck no, it needs to come off your head during the heat of battle, at the hands of enemy cavalry!

Mike Nickerson

[T.Kern]

Todd, to hear some of the 1st. Maine boys talk, they gave a little schoolin' at the Hodge's Preservation March. Is that true, especially after I was talking ya'll up so much? :wink_smil

http://uhlan.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&thread=1160012564&page=1

Mike Nickerson

Well I've been a little busy but let me clarify the matter a bit, then I'll go over to the other board and set things right. I am indignant! NO ONE schooled US! Yes, it, at times, was a jumbled fight. and yes, many of us had never ridden together so at first did not function well as a unit. There were several horses who had never seen a sabre melee(mine included) but there is no need for excuses I'm sure you'll see. The big difference was that we used appropriate distances! Don't get me wrong, I think the Maine boys did a fine job, better than most reenactors but they too need to remember to keep distances appropriate for the action. I don't want to sound as if we need to make excuses but I'll give a couple examples of what I mean. In sabre fights, they did not rally back as most fights would have, we did. So what happened is, as we rally back at a gallop 50 yards or so, reform, and come again, they are still advancing. Instead of a slow withdrawal we planned, with the ebb and flow of cavalry fights, we had to continue back into no fire zones, where all had to stop. We came in fast, some horses shied, we rallied out at the gallop, only to have them on our heels as if we didn't have real weapons?! Imagine! Next, when we are dismounted with long arms at good defensive positions they continue to advance in the open to within ranges I could spit on them, well not really, but 20 yards with long arms how serious is that? Now having said that, they were good fellows and I have no complaints but next year at any event it would add so much more realism to it if opposing forces kept appropriate distances. So I guess if you lost sight of realism one might think they schooled us,....nah.:)

On to the hat thing. Well early in the day one of their guys came off and later in the day I came off. Yes , true, My misfortune began when we were again pushed back too quick too fast, as if we had no weapons???? I realized the only way out was back through them. So with an act of urgency I called out for someone to follow me and sailed away into them again. It was a broken charge with a broken line that was desperate and sure to fail, but we had to try anyway. I'm not sure how many followed me into the fray as our Lt. was arguing with a green trooper who failed to or try to get mounted in time to get away. We had already lost a couple men so I believe only a handful came on at full speed. As I ran into them, my horse, new to this all, shied left and in trying to circle right to come into their rear, I continued to feel myself right of saddle. Trying to turn my horse under me and not able to, I realized my jenifer was nearly on his side and that was why I could not right myself. Realizing the folly in trying to right myself I decided to unencumbered my horse (it is better to pick a point where you decide to un-gracefully dismount, than the horse pick the place). While a truce was called and I was saddling, the illustrious Gerry Todd snatched my hat off my head to the laughs and cat calls of all. Having NEVER come off in a fight before I was humbled. I was also moved that Sgt. Todd had such caring for me to see that my hat not burden me while I was working nor get soiled in any way so he held it for me, a true friend. I only hope I can repay the favor in the future.:)
I'm sure all can see now the truth of the matter and that no excuses were necessary. We all know yankees lie anyway, right??!!

Your Humble servant,
Todd Kern

[VaTrooper]

http://uhlan.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=events&action=display&thread=1160012564&page=1



I missed that link when you posted it Mike. Dave's version sure did have a lot of spin on it.

[Andrew German]

Hello Todd,

Good post. As Jerry implied, there was no disrespect among us; we think the Valley Light Horse is as good as ANV cavalry reenactment gets. We believe we make an equal effort on the federal side, so it was an honor to face off against you in Virginia. We too had a couple of novice troopers in the saddle for the first time, and the horse I was on had not been in the ranks before. But a very wet night gave us all an edge for a fight.

When we first met you in the road, we sent out skirmishers to fire at relatively long range, pushing a little. Then it was clear that you planned to charge, so we reformed ranks and drew sabre. I think the first time we didn't hold formation well and a melee ensued. We both rallied and reformed at a proper distance. For the second charge we took pains to hold our formation, boot to boot, which showed us how powerful a charge in formation would be. Your ranks broke around us before the melee. You and John Nolan always went first and farthest so we all took a swing at you before we both reformed. Tom Craig then realized that you were vulnerable to a revolver charge, so we returned sabre and drew revolvers to chase you around the corner, not realizing that we had entered a no-fire zone.

In the second meeting on the hill, we pushed forward dismounted skirmishers to try to drive you at a distance. Then all remounted and we had another go a sabres, after which we retired and rallied.

After the pleasant interlude in Unison, we set out to establish contact again. After a while we lost your tracks and thought you had left the road to catch us in the rear, but our advance caught sight of you on the ridge across the creek. Tom Craig led the first set of twos on a revolver charge across the bridge and up the hill past your dismounted position. We exchanged fire, and then the second set of twos came up, dismounted, and pitched in, driving your dismounted force and almost taking your led horses. At the same time, the first group of us followed Tom off the road to flank you, just as you and your mounted reserve came down the lane. We fired and retired, and you formed for a charge, which we met. Both sides then retired to a respectful distance and reformed for a second charge. That one had some power. John Sweeney slammed into me and my valiant ex-cutting horse with enough force and sound that others thought he had hit the telegraph pole. The blow drove my carbine hammer into my thigh, and I dropped my sabre hand a bit in reaction, so the hilt hit his forearm. Again we kept a modest formation while you swarmed around us. The dents in my sabre prove that all of these actions were intense. The blows were strong but not dangerous, and we all instinctively practiced Poinsett's blows and parries with points raised. None of our troopers went down during the day, but any of us could have. You put your horse to the test, and when your saddle shifted you picked the time to dismount. We're proud that we were the opponents when you left the saddle for the first time, but we're not bragging or claiming we knocked you out of it. As Jerry said, he won the bounty on your hat by chance, not talent.

From our perspective, it was a wonderful two days of riding through pristine Virginia countryside, practicing tactics against the best "enemy" we could face. We hope that you also see us as brothers in the saddle, who share the same determination for authenticity, and we hope to meet up again next season. And if we really get on your good side, maybe we can return sabres and go fox hunting!

Regards,
Andrew German

[T.Kern]

Sir, no disrespect taken. A fair account, though I still must say too close in most actions. Not enough superior rate of fire to advance or numbers at the point of contact to carry the fight in most cases.
Though I have to point out, Tom Craig did call a truce in the road fight as he was on his way off, and I believe had to get off and re saddle. So I would call it even. We did not plan a charge until I saw what I thought was ya'll preparing a charge. We were ill prepared and had done no drill as a unit at that point, and it showed. I have long thought most cav does not rally and reform with enough distance, ourselves included, to fully use and show the mobility of the horse as a weapon.
Poinsettes sabre drill was well used, though I don't recall anywhere in poinsette's where the use of a "revolver charge" is called for.:) The revolver was used as a weapon for personal defense or when an objective can not be reached by a sabre charge. But they were certainly used in melees or when that was the weapon available.

The last fight, when we were flanked, we had no mounted reserve, that was us getting back to our horses and mounted after we had laid down a heavy fire dismounted, which ya'll came through anyway. So I must protest to some extent!:)
Next year we have many events we'll be doing together and we should start looking at the weekend in late Sept or early Oct to do a campaign ride in this area again.
As for fox hunting , No one can call themselves a cavalryman who has not gone 1st field with a fast hunting group (not a glorified trail ride group)! There is a reason why so many of the old world cavalrymen hunted. I have been threatening to write a paper on the similarities of hunting and cavalry for some time and will soon. Hunting is the closest the American continent will ever see again to real cavalry. Much is to be learned for a cavalryman; communication at distance, reading terrain and opponent, riding over broken ground at speed, how to throw out your advance and flankers, so much more...it is primal. As always, all are invited to hunt the Sunday of the event.
I look forward to next year!

Your humble servant,
I am , Sincerely,
Todd Kern

[GeraldTodd]

on that note...

The Cavalryman

"There is always room at the top," is a favorite phrase for the advertisements of correspondence courses.

This is true in all walks of life, but in none is it truer than in regard to leaders of Cavalry.

Since the time when the increased complexity of war made the division into several arms necessary, there have been many good generals of armies, good infantrymen and good artillerymen not a few, but the good cavalrymen can be counted on the fingers of your hands.

This does not mean that the leader of cavalry must be of superior clay to his brethren of the other arms, but it does mean that he must possess a combination of qualities not often found in one individual.

He must have a passion not simply a liking for horses, for nothing short of an absorbing passion can make him take the necessary interest in his mount.

A diploma, even from [Fort] Riley, does no more than give a good start on the line which must be followed and developed.

He must be a veterinarian in theory and practice; a farrier and a horsehoer better than any man in his troop; a stable sergeant and horse trainer; a saddler. Above all he must possess a sense of obligation to his mount, which, with the whip of a remorseless conscience makes him him personally seek the welfare of his horses above his own.

No one acquires these qualities at teas or card parties, or by slapping his leg with his whip.

Such knowledge can only be acquired by reading books on horse diseases, on horse management, on conditioning, and training. By association with horsemen of all sorts and conditions wherever met. What he reads and sees and hears will not all be useful, or all correct. Much of it will be bunk, but little by little, through the years, constant research and above all, constant experimentation will lead finally to the acquirement of a little knowledge.

But, while so learning and working, he must remember that the things he is accomplishing are not ends. He is neither a stable sergeant, nor a horseshoer, nor a veterinarian; such arts are but means. The end is to become a cavalry officer who will be a success in war.

The officer who never looks after his ponies after a game to see that they are properly put away; or who at the end of a long march or hard drill says, "Sergeant, fix up the horses, I'll be back soon," and then beats it, is not building for war; is not earning his pay. He is without pride and lazy, and the men know it and despise him while neglecting the horses.

I have said that all the foregoing things must be done with the object of obtaining success in war; but why?

Because, success in war depends on getting to the right place at the right time. Neither result may be attained if the horses play out. When the great moment for which he has lived comes, all his knowledge, no matter how hard he has worked, will seem pitifully inadequate to enable him to get exhausted and half starved horses over waterless country on time. Time, I repeat; let him brand that word into his soul. Nearly all the remediable failures of the world result from being late.

And now, suppose that the officer has possessed himself of these qualities; affection for the horse; tenacity of purpose; a studious mind; a feeling of obligation, and a sense of time. What are the other qualifications he must acquire?

A thorough knowledge of war by reading histories, lives of cavalrymen, by the study of the tactics of his arm and by the constant working of problems. This, too, will take strength of will and hard work, but, again assuming that he has succeeded, what is the final quality which he must acquire?

He must train himself into the possession of a Gambler's Courage.

Since General Chauvel has destroyed the idea that the horse is precluded from the battlefield, and has shown that bullets are impotent to stop determined valor, the successful cavalryman must educate himself to say Charge! I say educate himself, for the man is not born who can say it out of hand. There are several reasons for this.

For years, we have been taught that fire is irresistible, our experience on the target range has strengthened the myth. We picture sheets of cupro-nickel (I had almost said lead) sweeping in a devastating hurricane over the field.

At maneuvers we have been taught to skip on foot from bush to rock-like sand fleas on the beach.

Civilization has affected us; we abhor personal encounter. Many a man will risk his life, with an easy mind, in a burning house, who recoils from having his face punched. We have been taught to restrain our emotions, to look upon anger as low, until many of us have never experienced the God sent ecstasy of unbridled wrath. We have never felt our eyes screw up, our temples throb, and the red mist gather in our sight.

And we expect that a man, the result of all this, shall, in an instant, the twinkling of an eye, direct himself of all restraint of all caution and hurl himself on the enemy, a frenzied beast, lusting to probe his foeman's guts with three feet of steel or shatter his brains with a bullet. Gentlemen, it cannot be done not without mental practice.

That is why it is easier to attack on foot than to charge mounted. It seems more refined. There, in front, are those dear futile bushes of maneuvers, the bullets sing and whisper but there is more time to get used to them. It takes courage, higher moral courage to walk to death than to gallop at it. But, it is the form of courage which our civilization has given us. It is the courage of the burning house; not of the bloody nose.

Therefore, you must school yourself to savagery. You must imagine how it will feel when your sword hilt crashes into the breast bone of your enemy. You must picture the wild exaltation of the mounted charge when the lips draw back in a snarl and the voice cracks with passion.

While on the march or at horse exercise, you must say to yourself, "There is the enemy at the corner! What do I do? Charge!!" You must ride stiff fences, you must play polo.

When you have acquired the ability to develop on necessity, momentary and calculated savagery, you can keep your twentieth century clarity of vision with which to calculate the chances of whether to charge or fight on foot, and having decided on the former, the magic word will transform you temporarily into a frenzied brute.

To use the words which Conan Doyle puts in the mouth of his hero Gerard, you have equipped yourselves with, "A heart of fire and a brain of ice."

To sum up, then, you must be: a horse master; a scholar; a high minded gentleman; a cold blooded hero; a hot blooded savage. At one and the same time, you must be a wise man and a fool. You must not get fat or mentally old, and you must be a personal Leader.

G.S. Patton, Jr.
Maj. 3d Cavalry
1921

[CJSchumacher]

Great quote, Gerry...best I've read in some time.

Todd, you also couldn't have said it better yourself. There is no other activity that I've participated in that more closely resembles what it must be like operating as cavalry in the field. The training of dressage, caring of horses, hours on ground work and cavaleti, real horsemanship, and true cameraderie...all come together in that first field when foxhunting.

Definitely write that piece.