And What of Islam?

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

So there I was, reading along in Moby Dick (1841) and I hit a reference to a fast (the "no eating" one rather than the "quick" one) as a RAMADAN.
So being proper (or maybe not so proper) mid-nineteenth century types, what DO we know of that third Abrahamic religion, Islam?
I've read about Moslems coming to our neck of the woods (both free folks and slaves) since before the American Revolution. (For our Reb friends. that's the First One, 1775 and all that.)

So what do we know and when did we know it?

Admittedly, this is not as racy as when we touched upon the Oneidians, but still interesting, nonetheless. Is this the sort of thing to be discussed over brandy and cigars (or spice tea and hookas)?

Glen E. Hargis

[Elizabeth Miller]

Here's a few web sites I found. They address mostly the history, not the "what did the average person know" aspect, but it is a start. The third site has a reference to a book on Islam in the antebellum period.
http://www.islamamerica.org/history.cfm
http://sunnah.org/history/islamamr.htm
http://www.colostate.edu/orgs/MSA/find_more/iia.html

Joanna Jones

[Silvana Siddali]

One of the most straightforward sources for what people knew about the world outside the U. S. is early to mid-19th century popular geography and history schoolbooks. By 1840, both history and geography had become a part of the curriculum (at least, in the Academies, if not always in smaller district grammar schools.) Many of the world history and geography texts I've examined contain discussions of "Mohametanism" that strike me as surprisingly evenhanded.

For a great place to look at these sources, and even download information from a few scanned texts, you might check out the Nietz Schoolbook collection at the University of Pittsburgh. http://www.library.pitt.edu/articles/database_info/nietz.html

Remember that country schools would use schoolbooks for years and years after they were printed. Moreover, school teachers rarely assigned specific texts -- the children just brought in whatever was on hand at home. So my best guess would be, if you're an adult in 1860, you might have used geography and history texts from the 1840s. Prior to the early 1840s you would probably not have studied much history, and your geography knowledge might be rudimentary -- those subjects weren't included in the average district school curriculum much before the early 1840s.

Hope this helps!

Silvana Siddali

[HighPrvt]

Sir, modern politics (post 1865 or so) are not a topic of conversation for this forum. Please refrain from further modern chat.

Elizabeth Clark, Moderating Team

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Just my opinion, but I don't think it would have made conversation around the average table, or camp.


Speaking of opinions ...
I fear that that then, as now, American society possessed deep, rich veins of ignorance in many areas of thought.
These intellectual voids were, by no means, universal. So, the notion that the whole of the country was made up of bumpkins and ignoramuses is a mis-read of how things were.
But, as confused as we are on how things are in the here and now, is it any wonder we miss the mark on the there and then?

[HighPrvt]

So your of the opinion that if someone isn't versed in heathen religions then they are ignorant country bumpkins?
OK........
:)

[Emmanuel Dabney]

I cannot speak for those not on this forum but others have studied the travels of both men and women in Egypt during the antebellum years. Though much of the focus as I recall was on dress, Carolann, are you out there? Does anyone else remember from Karin Boheleke's talk about women traveling in Egypt what their reactions were?

I find that Americans were rather interested in things non-Christian and it didn't buy them any one way tickets to any place warmer than the Middle East.

Though when I have found reference to Islam it is usually some elderly slave who was born in Africa, to African parents, or just those who did not become assimilated into the Christian world. However, it mostly amount to only a few enslaved persons and never have I found it to be the case with enslaved domestic servants.

[lazarus]

So your of the opinion that if someone isn't versed in heathen religions then they are ignorant country bumpkins?
OK........
:)

Let's be careful on what we call "heathen" religions versus others. I'm sure many of us can't forget the sides that have called down some sort of god(s)/God to make sure they won some sort of war or contest when shooting the rifle or swinging the sword. Heathen is a term that could cover about any religion given the right angle. But, back to Isalm, based on my studies of immigration, not big in the U.S. until the twentieth century, and not really big until the 1940s with a population of at least 50,000 self-identified practicing Muslims. Of course, there could have been more but not everyone reveals their religious beliefs because, let's face it, it stigmatizes or divides.

Cheers!

[Dale Beasley]

I think it is best we leave this alone. Becasue, so many people do not read the "fine print" in verses of the Qur'an and even the Bible. For example, some yahoo use to quote from the Qur'an on his signature block on this site. I looked up what he quoted and it simply was not there. When I brought this to his attention, it ticked him off, and he sent me a PM telling me I was a liberal.

Dale, leave the politics out of the discussion.

"Those who do not believe and die while they are unbelivers, on them falls the curse of Allah, of angles and of men.--The Qur'an

[ohpkirk]

So your of the opinion that if someone isn't versed in heathen religions then they are ignorant country bumpkins?
OK........
:)


How is Islam a heathen religion? They pray to the same God as Christians and Jews, just not in the same prophet.

I have come across references to Moslems in period texts and I believe in some newspapers as "Mohammedians" and even some Anglo's with the first name of Mohamet. In one newspaper article regarding the landing of camels on the Texas coast in late 1854 and their first stop at Indianola, the caretaker of the camels was Hadji Ali, which was butchered by Texans into "Hi Jolly" the 'friendly Mohammedian'.

[BishopLynch]

How is Islam a heathen religion? They pray to the same God as Christians and Jews, just not in the same prophet.


Please confine any religious discussions to polite debate regarding period thoughts and quotes on the matter. Elizabeth Clark, Moderator

[Hank Trent]

One way that people in the 19th century might have heard about Islam, even if they'd never met a believer of that religion, would be through the Transcendentalists.

The Transcendentalists had a fascination with eastern, exotic religions in general. The final paragraph here sums it up: http://www.improvis.org/walden/Influences.htm

For example, here's Emerson starting out an 1841 essay on love with a quote from the Koran: http://www.emersoncentral.com/love.htm

As some others noted in this thread, there was also a fascination with travel narratives in general, travel to the "east" in particular, and therefore an interest in exotic Muslim cultures, even though again most people may never have met a follower of the religion. Here's a review of a translation of the Koran, published in 1850
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fusde%2Fusde0026%2F&tif=00497.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DAGD1642-0026-150 The review begins:
A new and valuable edition of the Koran is peculiarly acceptable at this time, when the attention of the scientific and religious world has been attracted to the East, particularly those countries which are possessed by the followers of the prophet... When we reflect upon the rapid growth of the religion of which this work is the text-book, and the devout adherence of its believers to their faith, putting altogether to shame the faith of Christians in that particular, and of the necessity which exists of supplanting that faith the Gospel, we understand how necessary it is to become acquainted with the Koran...

And apparently some people actually read it, because the January 1855 Harper's Editor's Drawer included this comment:
"A very bad pun occurs in a verse of Sale's translation of the Koran, where the Lord says, speaking of Solomon (who was King of the Genii, and a great hero among the Mohamedans): "And we also subjected unto his command divers of the devils who might dive to get pearls for him" What a dull ear Father Sale must have had!

There are enough references to the Koran, Mohammed, "mussulmen," and such, in popular literature, that it seems the average person would have had a basic understanding that the Arabs or the Turks or some of those vague people "over there" believed in an exotic religion that followed Mohammed.

For example, from Virginia Illustrated, 1857, at http://www.letrs.indiana.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=wright2;cc=wright2;sid=2ed1987755b391684b5a0 61f6b7d5873;q1=koran;idno=Wright2-2405;view=image;seq=0028

"Brother Porte used to be very kind and obliging, but of late he has become such a bear in his manners, and such a sloven, it's shameful! You might really suppose, from his talk, that he thought women had no souls; and as to listening to any thing they say--whew! he's entirely too high for that. The fact is, he got to reading the Koran some few years ago, and I don't think he has been quite right since."

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[ElizabethClark]

Dear Everyone,

Several members of the forum are responding to this most interesting topic as I anticipate all members should want to respond: with period accounts and references to expand on the extent of information a person from the era might have had available.

This is not the forum for debate on modern religious ideas, and such modern content will be removed, as will speculative "Well, I think I'd believe this..." statements.

The thread is far too interesting to remove from the open forum--instead, I'll be using moderator tools to keep discussion on track. Habitual off-trackers will be rewarded with restricted posting priveleges.

[ElizabethClark]

Mr Beasley, I'm assuming that's Allah and the Angels? :)

[Elizabeth Miller]

From Harper's New Monthly, Feb. 1858, a description of a trip to Constantinople, including thoughts on "Islamism" and "Ramazan"(Ramadan)
http://tinyurl.com/y5goyh

Same journal, Dec. 1856 "The Fall of Islam"
http://tinyurl.com/y6mxr8

Actually, doing a MOA search of "harpers" and Islam* OR Moham* from 1850 to 1865 gave 736 citations. And that is just one journal.

Joanna Jones

[BishopLynch]

Ms Clark,
I will then modify my last post which you deleted to reflect period thought.

How is Islam a heathen religion? They pray to the same God as Christians and Jews, just not in the same prophet. I would do my homework on that one.
Christians would not have considered themselves as worshiping the same God as the Muslims, nor would Muslims consider themselves as worshiping the same God as Jews or Christians. Hence the term infidels used by Islam.
The beliefs havent changed since these religions were founded...which was way before the 19th century.

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Christians would not have considered themselves as worshiping the same God as the Muslims, nor would Muslims consider themselves as worshiping the same God as Jews or Christians. Hence the term infidels used by Islam.
The beliefs havent changed since these religions were founded...which was way before the 19th century.

In the period theology of most Jews, Christians, Moslems, there was but one God. Perhaps there is confusion on this point that springs from the use of different names in the languages of the faithful.
Take a gander at the prophets of God mentioned in the following Qur’anic verses I think most will sound familiar.
(Admittedly, an English traslation of Arabic is but a pale representation of the Word, but I m'self am but barely a mono-linguist.)



Qur'an 4:163-165
163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;
164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;
165 Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

Qur'an 6:84-86
84 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good.
85 And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous.
86 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one of them did We prefer above (Our) creatures,


Qur'an 21:85-88
85 And (mention) Ishmael, and Idris (Enoch), and Dhul-Kifl (Ezekiel). All were of the steadfast.
86 And We brought them in unto Our mercy. Lo! they are among the righteous.
87 And (mention) Dhun Nun (Jonah), when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou glorified! I have been a wrong-doer.
88 Then We heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus We save believers.

The art of dividing folks up in to arbitrary groups of THEMs and USes was certainly not new to the mid-ninteenth century nor is it unknown today. (Sad to say)

[Hank Trent]

Christians would not have considered themselves as worshiping the same God as the Muslims, nor would Muslims consider themselves as worshiping the same God as Jews or Christians. Hence the term infidels used by Islam.
The beliefs havent changed since these religions were founded...which was way before the 19th century.

While that's the general thought, people have an annoying habit of not always agreeing. :) For the opposition spokesman, I'd suggest Emmanuel Swedenborg.

He viewed the "Mahometans" as following an adaptation of the Christian religion, suited "to the genius of the orientals," which was created by divine providence to turn them from idolatry, and at least get them closer to the true Christian religion.

He pictured the Mahometans in the spiritual world as just "behind the Papists in the west... The principal reason why they appear in this situation is, because they acknowledge the Lord as the grand Prophet, as the Son of God, and the Wisest of all Who was sent into the world to instruct mankind." Thus they're allowed in heaven, but not in the center of heaven. Only "they who, in consequence of evil lives, do not from the heart make that confession [of the Lord and of one God], are in the hells beneath them." (from Writings of Swedenborg 1841)

His view of the founding of their religion:

To the intent that all those idolatries might be eradicated, it came to pass of the Lord's divine providence, that a new religion, accommodated to the genius of the orientals, took its rise; in which something from each testament of the Word was retained, and which taught that the Lord had come into the world, and that he was a grand prophet, the wisest of all, and the Son of God. This was effected by means of Mahomet, from whom that religion took its name...

The Mahometans also have their heaven; for all in the universe, who acknowledge a God, and from a religious notion shuns evils as sins against him, are saved... I have heard also that it is impossible for them to think of our Lord as one with the Father; but that it is possible for them to think of him as his equal, and that he has dominion over heaven and earth, because he is his Son; therefore such of them as are elevated by the Lord into their superior heaven, hold this belief. (from Swedenborg's Conjugial Love and Its Chaste Delights, reprinted from 1841 edition)

Swedenborg's ideas in the United States influenced the spiritualists, who weren't quite so dogmatic, but believed that many people could speak directly with the spiritual world. Thus they were open to the words of a number of prophets, not just the Biblical ones. A.J. Davis, one of the major spokesmen for spiritualism in the U.S., wrote

Many revelations have been made by persons among the Chinese, Hindoos, and Persians... Also Mohammed declared many spiritual truths--truths that have been verified by psychological research, and also by the spiritual developments of Swedenborg. Yet, again, these truths are not revered, merely because the revelation has proceeded from Mohammed, and because hereditary impression and education preclude all affection from the truths and their revealer. (from The Principles of Nature, A. J. Davis, 1852)

Obviously Swedenborgism and spiritualism were not mainstream beliefs in the U.S., but they're an example of a school of thought which incorporated Christian, Muslim and other beliefs as all different expressions of the same diety.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[ElizabethClark]

I would do my homework on that one.

Christians would not have considered themselves as worshiping the same God as the Muslims, nor would Muslims consider themselves as worshiping the same God as Jews or Christians. Hence the term infidels used by Islam.
The beliefs havent changed since these religions were founded...which was way before the 19th century.

Well, there are several nice folks doing their homework on this question, and sharing the citations with us all.

Without any sources or references or quotations, it's rather hard to uphold a generalized statement of "they wouldn't consider themselves this way." Sources and citations to either confirm or deny the attitudes held by actual people from the 19th century, rather than our modern ideas of what *might* have been thought, are lovely.

Without knowing how some mid-century Mohammedans were using the term "infidel", we cannot speculate on who they might classify as such. The Quran does speak of "Peoples of the Book" (which I have understood to mean the Old Testament) as being people of faith, so that would rather take them out of the realms of "infidel" (unfaithful) for mid-century. Modern interpretation and use of the term does not factor into this discussion.

Belief systems *do* have a tendancy to change over time from what the original founders envisioned. A Catholic Mass from 1850 might not be terribly familiar to a modern Catholic. The Mormons are a period-appropriate religion, and the modern and historic cultural practices are different by a goodly amount. Various forms of Protestant faith have changed from their founding dates to the mid-19th century. Modern sectarian debate does not factor into this discussion, but the differences in tenets and practices of faiths according to their pre-1865 existance may.

My thanks to all who are sharing primary source comments on the question.

[jacobite8749]

“Without knowing how some mid-century Mohammedans were using the term "infidel", we cannot speculate on who they might classify as such”

I imagine that the period term a Mohammedan may have used might be Caffer, Caffre, Coffree. However, the word is properly Kafir, translated as an infidel, and unbeliever. The Arabs originaly applied this to pagan negroes, amongst others. The Portugase took it up and the British from them. The term is oftern applied malevolently to Christians by Mahommedans. (This is in 1886) It is more likley that “infidel” being a latin translation (into Portugese) of Kafir that fell into general English language use.

According to “Hobson-Jobson”, Henry Yale and A.C Burnell’s Anglo-Indian Dictionary 1886, the word Kafir was used by Mohammedan’s to cover all who did not believe, i.e. Pagans. Arabs also applied the word Kafir to Hindu’s and Indo-Chinese States, being “Pagan” religions, and the Portugese mistakenly thought that many of these States were Christian. Hence the concept that “infidel” meant Christian. Therefore it seems sensible that the translation is also used in the same way.

By the 1880’s the two words appear to have gone in different directions. In English the word Caffer, Kafir, was being aplied to black tribes in South Africa, and the word Infidel being used as as unbeliever of the Muslim faith.

John Hopper
WinstonFreeState

[celtfiddler]

This has been a very interesting thread to follow.

A possible source for information regarding Christian interaction with Muslims is James Riley's book "An Authentic Narrative of the Loss of the American Brig Commerce, Wrecked on the Western Coast of Africa, in the Month of August, 1815. With an Account of the Sufferings of Her Surviving Officers and Crew, who were Enslaved by the Wandering Arabs on the Great African Desart (sic), or Zahahrah; and Observations Historical, Geographical, &c. Made During the travels of the Author, while a Slave to the Arabs" first published about 1817. The author was a sea captain who was shipwrecked off the coast of Africa and sold into slavery.

[Dale Beasley]

Ms Clark,

I sure hope so. I can't help but remember my time "Over There" and even watching the Movie KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, the ruler of Jerusalem asked the Muslim Warlord..." what is Jerusalem worth?"...his answer..."nothing but everything"...
Sorry is too off target.

And a friend of mine who is a Muslim told me that "Infidels" are anyone who does not believe in a God...just saw that in a few threads ago.

This is always a very interesting topic, thank you for allowing me to post.

[amity]

An interesting book on this very subject is Edward Said's _Orientalism_ which was published in about the late 1970s, as I remember. Said studies in depth the history of Western attitudes toward the Middle East. It was largely a critique of Western academic thought, but also of popular perceptions, with a heavy focus on the "victorian era" broadly defined.

Terre Schill