Peter Tait Blue?

[PaulJ]

Hi,
got back from the US recently where I managed to visit Gettysburg and view some very nice reproduction Peter Tait jackets at CJ Daley's, also a County Cloth sample next door at a shop called 'Needle and Thread's' - and bumped into Jim Warehime wearing his own (makes for S & S, made one for Les Jensen). All great looking pieces but I confess I was a little taken aback at the colours of these jackets - all significantly lighter and more blue than I had considered a Tait to be from looking at some originals (on the Internet) and of course in my copy of 'Echoes of Glory' - my impression of Tait's being a darker grey-blue. Using the search function I have come across a comment from the Richmond Depot that one original was originally a brighter more blue-grey than the current grey-blue. Can anyone confirm that this is simply a chemical process as the dyes have aged/ accumulated dirt. Are all surviving examples darker and more grey looking when seen 'in the flesh' under reasonable lighting conditions? I was wondering if anyone knows if any have survived with their original brighter blue - or have researchers looked inside the internal seams etc to gauge the original colour (less affected by sunlight/ dirt) ? A further thought - are the photos in Echoes of Glory (of the Gouge, Duncan jackets) misleading?

Regards, Paul Jonsson. (England, UK)

[1stMaine]

Paul,

I have only examined one original, and that's the one in the Maryland Historical Society. My memory says it was an almost French blue trim, and that the body indeed had a more bluish cast to it, over-riding the grey. However, that's my own memory speaking, and I haven't my notes at had.

Having said that, a range of shading within the various lots is to be expected, for even with the best of calculations, period dyes could and did vary from batch to batch based not only on the dyes themselves, but the mineral content of the water, the type of wool being used, the lanoline present, etc.

As to photographs, I also take them with a grain of salt, as the same jacket may appear anywhere from oatmeal to tan to panzer grey depending upon the lighting, exposure, etc. Then trying to reproduce it in a magazine leads to another level of accuracy in rendering. Absent a colorwheel beside the item for color-correction, it's hard to say exactly what shade an item is. A good example of what I am talking about may be found on Geoff Walden's excellent website regarding Columbus Depot jackets.

I support the more bluish cast currently used, as it also reflects period comments from both federal and CS soldiers regarding nearly-mistaking soldiers wearing these clothes, (or clothes made from this material) for federal troops.

Respects,

[Richmond Depot]

I usually have on hand at any given time, 5 copies of the CS EOG. I enjoy opening each copy to the same page and showing the color variations that exist from book to book.

The color that I had duplicated for my own English Kersey matches the Garrett Gouge Jacket in Greensboro NC very nicely. This color is a darker bluish-grey color than that offered by most makers. And yes, I did look at holes on the inside to determine the original color. This jacket has not changed much in color from production and is almost mint condition. Tom Carleton and I also looked at the Pendlton jacket at the recent N-S Trader show in Richmond and again, my fabric was a nice match to it.

In reviewing the post that you refer to, my intent was to try and emphasize the bluer tint of the fabric and I can see where it could be misleading and I apologize if this has confused anyone.

Realistically, there can be, and one should expect color variations within almost any fabric of the period. Including the English Kersey.

Paul, if you or any of your pards visit the US, please feel free to contact me if you guys are ever intersted in some "in person" viewings

Now, how does one categorize the different varieties of Tait Jackets ? Most seem to be of the same pattern with differences only in the trim and lining style.Thoughts anyone ?

[Iron Scout]

A picture is worth a thousand words. Just thought I'd throw this up for discussion. This is the Pendleton jacket to which Scott is referring. Like the way the jacket is mounted? Being a museum person, it made me cringe...

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Richmond Depot]

Neill,

Did you get any pics showing the method of button attachment ? Now that was pretty unusual.

[5th Texas]

Paul,

I have only examined one original, and that's the one in the Maryland Historical Society. My memory says it was an almost French blue trim, and that the body indeed had a more bluish cast to it, over-riding the grey.

So there is a surviving Tait trimmed in blue? I thought there was some question as to whether or not Tait jackets had blue trim, only the red trimmed jackets being documented.

[1stMaine]

So there is a surviving Tait trimmed in blue? I thought there was some question as to whether or not Tait jackets had blue trim, only the red trimmed jackets being documented.


Yes siree bob! There is a blue-trimmed Tait jacket in the Maryland Historical Society collection. I have seen it with my own eyes, albeit about 20 years ago. We had special dispensation to examine it and somewhere I have a folder with notes I took regarding it.

Respects,

[tmdreb]

Like the way the jacket is mounted? Being a museum person, it made me cringe...

Neill Rose
PLHA

Stabbed by pins through the cloth? Nice. Why not just use super glue?

[Iron Scout]

Ha!

So you caught that huh Phil?? So you've got a 60K garment and you're pinning it for display....groovy. Scott, I was in such a hurry to see everything before 12pm I missed the attachment feature; do tell.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[5th Texas]

Yes siree bob! There is a blue-trimmed Tait jacket in the Maryland Historical Society collection. I have seen it with my own eyes, albeit about 20 years ago. We had special dispensation to examine it and somewhere I have a folder with notes I took regarding it.

Respects,

Not long before the A.C. crash there were a couple of threads about Don Troiani's propensity to show ANV troops with blue trimmed jackets in his paintings. A couple of those paintings are of Maryland soldiers wearing blue trimmed Tait jackets and I wondered at the time what source he used for his info. Betcha he looked at the same jacket.

[PenPusher]

Neill,

Did you get any pics showing the method of button attachment ? Now that was pretty unusual.

Were the buttons inserted throuh the cloth and all fixed together by a length of cord on the back?

Any idea what the extra stitching is to the right of the buttonhole, almost looks like someone found the holes to large and stitched them closed.

Alan Thrower

[roundshot]

The buttons are held in place on the back by square cut nails. There are at least two blue piped jackets (Gouge & Lawton), one with blue collar and shoulder straps (63rd Tennessee), and one with blue collar (Harrison, 1st MD). There are also two issued untrimmed with (red) facings added later (Sturdivant's Btty. & and Godwin). I have heard there is a Tait at the Citadel Museum and the Warren Rifles Museum too but I can't verify.

[1stMaine]

Were the buttons inserted throuh the cloth and all fixed together by a length of cord on the back?

Any idea what the extra stitching is to the right of the buttonhole, almost looks like someone found the holes to large and stitched them closed.

Alan Thrower

Comrade,

Interestingly enough, two surviving CD jackets show a similar feature; the "Oklahoma HS" and the "Atkins" jackets. Additionally, they share the same construction traits, such as having the cuff trim butt up against the sleev, rather than applied over it. You can see the details here:

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/1864/cdjacket.htm

The question then becomes, "Is it possible that Tait also produced CD styled jackets for the Confederacy?" I'm not at all saying that they did. I'm just asking a question that occured to me as I read this thread after reading Geoff's excellent review.

Respects,

[Richmond Depot]

The buttons are held in place on the back by square cut nails.

Very Good Bob :p

While the method of poking a hole in the fabric and cording the buttons through the back is indicative of both British and 18th Century ( Rev. War garments) style, I have also seen this on Confederate Officers frock coats.

[roundshot]

Comrade,



The question then becomes, "Is it possible that Tait also produced CD styled jackets for the Confederacy?" I'm not at all saying that they did. I'm just asking a question that occured to me as I read this thread after reading Geoff's excellent review.

Respects,

Or vice versa. Did the CS make the Tait coats from pre-cut materials and cloth imported thru the blockade?

[JimConley]

While the method of poking a hole in the fabric and cording the buttons through the back is indicative of both British and 18th Century ( Rev. War garments) style, I have also seen this on Confederate Officers frock coats.
Scott,
The Elijah Woodward (9th KY Inf.) "Columbus Depot" jacket uses a similar method of button attachment.

From Geoffrey Walden's article (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1864/cd/cdjacket.htm):
"The buttons are Kentucky state seal buttons, fastened by passing the shanks through holes in the jacket and attached to metal rings on the interior, but these are believed to be later replacements."

[Richmond Depot]

Scott,
The Elijah Woodward (9th KY Inf.) "Columbus Depot" jacket uses a similar method of button attachment.

From Geoffrey Walden's article (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1864/cd/cdjacket.htm):
"The buttons are Kentucky state seal buttons, fastened by passing the shanks through holes in the jacket and attached to metal rings on the interior, but these are believed to be later replacements."

Jim,

I have seen the method you describe also on a couple of different garments, Usually a very small split ring will be employed to hold the button in place. I prefer the cord myself, much faster for button removal for polishing ( like anyone actually polishes anyway.) :p

[JacobReichwein]

I have also wondered the same thing. I have found that the Taits made by Richmond Depot more closely resemble the darker kersey that you see in the original coats. I honestly have no idea what the difference is though

[bholt61stny]

I have heard there is a Tait at the Citadel Museum and the Warren Rifles Museum too but I can't verify.


There is a Tait jacket(or at least something very similar to one) in the Warren Rifles Museum. It has red trim about 1 inch wide running down the front of the jacket on both sides of the buttons as well as about 2 inches up from the end of the sleeve. It also has red piping along the collar with what I think are Lt. insignia. It belonged to Richard Mauzy Blakemore, an Adjutant of a Batallion of Artillery organized March 13, 1864 as part of Gen. Forrest's Cavalry. I would post pictures, but I am computer illiterate and cant figure out how to.

[Richmond Depot]

These are from Brian and Bob. I have had to cut down on alot of the detail due to the file sizes. Without an in person visit, The red trim down the front and along the top of the collar seems to have been added post war.The red piping on the bottom of the collar almost appears to be original to the jacket time period, but not necessarily to the manufacture of the jacket.

Once again, without an in person visit, it is difficult to tell if this is a Tait style or RD III. The collar appears to be a Tait style, especially since it lacks the top stitching usually found on the collars of RD garments, but then again, not all RD garments ( IE: Henry Redwood Jacket) have top stitching on the collar. . If we could open the jacket, it might have a second row of stitching beside the buttons. Flipping it over, if a Tait style, it would have a one piece back. On an additional photo, that I haven't posted, is a photo of Adjutant Blakemore wearing the jacket, post war and one of the buttons is unbuttoned giving a view of the key hole style buttonhole.Again a charachteristic of Taits, but occasionally showing up in RD garments ( IE:AC Redwood Jacket) And there is a hook and eye present.

Appears to be a Tait variety.