Ginger Beer Bottles

[Matthew Semple]

I am working with a potter who I got interested in trying to reproduce ginger beer bottles of the period. I have a couple prewar and wartime bottles in my personal collection that were dug from campsites and homestead trash pits. We are using my originals as examples to hopefully develop a quality reproduction. I will not make any promises until we make several attempts and are satisfied with the results. The following will be helpful in my project:

1. There was a thread before the crash that discussed the topic of these bottles. Does someone have that archived and can they post it here?

2. Can you post pictures of original (pre-1865) ginger beer bottles from your collection?

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

[John Kline]

Before I participate in the poll; will the potter produce the bottles using the correct clays and proper salt or lead glazes? Will they be molded or thrown? Does the potter use gas, electric or wood fired kilns and subsequently the correct temperatures and length? What about uniform sizes? Any markings or stamps? British or American?

[MomKelly]

I would be interested but only if they are good quality reproductions.
that look like originals... My only thought is there should be a makers mark that clearly indicates a repro on the bottom so they can not be sold at a later time as an original.

Respectfully,
Catherine Kelly

[roundshot]

Since you asked for pics, here's some bottles from the large dump of the Federal fort at Gloucester Point, VA.

[bcatgrappler]

Most of the stoneware crocks, jugs, mugs, and bottles of the period were thrown on a jig. A jig is different than handthrown pottery because they were not made by hand, but they were made in the same basic principle. I have been trying to reproduce jugs and bottles since I started making pots, but I do not use a jig and there is also a problem with the glazing techniques. Many of the jugs, crocks, and etc. from the time were glazed with a dark brown type of slip that was mined in New York which has been completely mined out, so the dark brown that is seen in old pieces can not be reproduced the same way that it was. They were also salt glazed, by throwing salt in the kiln during the second firing which pulls the silica out of the air and sticks it to the pieces in the kiln and after a kiln has been used for a salt glazing, it can not be used again for any other type of glazing so it basically ruins a kiln.

I have come pretty close to reproducing older pottery that was seen in the 1860's but it can never be done perfectly, mainly because of the glaze/ dark brown slip problem.

Thanks,
Michael A. Ray

[bcatgrappler]

Before I participate in the poll; will the potter produce the bottles using the correct clays and proper salt or lead glazes? Will they be molded or thrown? Does the potter use gas, electric or wood fired kilns and subsequently the correct temperatures and length? What about uniform sizes? Any markings or stamps? British or American? What is the estimated cost to us (vs. buying a period piece)? Can you post an example of their work?


John, any type of stoneware clay (non-porcelain) is suitable for this time period of American made pottery but as for the glazes, I talked about some methods in my post above. Lead glazes, however are hard to aquire because they are illegal to use in containers that are made to contain foods and anything intended for consumption. They may be just outright illegal to use, period, but I am not sure. The method of firing does not affect the quality of authenticity as much as the glaze used and temperature/ duration of firing. The same outcome can be produced with an electric or gas kiln as with a wood kiln.


Michael A. Ray

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Lead Glaze?
Not for nothing was lead posioning known as "The Potter's Disease"

Glen E. Hargis
This, that, and the other

[Charles Heath]

Matthew, you might check with Townsend who has dropped their ginger beer bottle from their most recent catalog to see if it meets your specs. Their supplier made a nice looking bottle, however the price was actually higher than useable originals. Also, do you happen to own an unopened orginal with a decent label?

[John Kline]

...any type of stoneware clay (non-porcelain) is suitable for this time period of American made pottery...The method of firing does not affect the quality of authenticity as much as the glaze used and temperature/ duration of firing.

Are you the potter in question in post number one?

You are saying that a Utica NY stoneware fires the same as a Georgia Peidmont stoneware or a Goshen VA shale laden stoneware or a smelly St. Louis river clay?

The sugars in wood firing produce various tints. In fact ordinary variations in firing and cooling, even the humidity of the day, produce different hues and timbres when wood is used. Then there is the type and season of the wood to be considered, even where the vessel sits in the kiln (opposed to the flue, heat souce and vents). Those in top of the kiln vary from those in lower sectons.

Gas and electric kilns are very clean, dependable and predictable. The subtle nuances of natural firings are factored out of the two common modern processes.

[bcatgrappler]

Are you the potter in question in post number one?

You are saying that a Utica NY stoneware fires the same as a Georgia Peidmont stoneware or a Goshen VA shale laden stoneware or a smelly St. Louis river clay?

The sugars in wood firing produce various tints. In fact ordinary variations in firing and cooling, even the humidity of the day, produce different hues and timbres when wood is used. Then there is the type and season of the wood to be considered, even where the vessel sits in the kiln (opposed to the flue, heat souce and vents). Those in top of the kiln vary from those in lower sectons.

Gas and electric kilns are very clean, dependable and predictable. The subtle nuances of natural firings are factored out of the two common modern processes.

Okay, what I mean is, it does not matter whether it is Tennessee ball clay stoneware or Kentucky ball clay. Many different types of clays were used, but porcelain comes from China and was not prevalant here.

The type of kiln does not matter, if you are trying to match an original glaze (color to color) but if you want the same exact glaze, then yes, you must use a wood kiln. Electric and gas kilns did not exist yet.

[ElizabethClark]

Mr Ray, don't forget to take a moment and configure your auto-signature in the User CP area (this will post your name automatically with each message, and I won't be coming around to nag you about it. :) )

To clarify: there are areas that have kaolin clay here in the US, as well as Europe and Britain, which is made into porcelain (I've not studied bottles, but I have studied dolls and some dishes). I was wondering if you meant that for US manufacture of bottles, porcelain was not as often done as other clays? Certainly Chinese exports of "china" were pretty large, but so were our imports of British and European porcelain during the period. I've not look at a great many American records for porcelain yet, however.

Thanks for any clarification you can share!

[bcatgrappler]

Pocelain china and china dolls were not used as bottles, jugs, crocks, or any other vessel used to contain products, such as whiskey or grains, in households, stores, ships, or even used in shipping. Stoneware was used because of it's durability and the nature of the clay allows it to be thrown into much larger pieces. Porcelain is much more fragile and expensive. Stoneware clays do not have to be imported, they can be found in your back yard.

Michael A. Ray

[Vuhginyuh]

Michael, you need to double check your sources here. And then post them.

[ElizabethClark]

Please notice: I did not claim porcelain dolls were used to store liquids. You stated that porcelain comes from China, and I pointed out that the porcelain process could be and was duplicated in many other areas besides China, with the type of clay that would yeild a "china" end product, produced and available from the US. Some forms of heavy white porcelain were indeed used for dishware (it's not fragile in the thicker items, actually). White clay was used to make very durable "white china" or "milk glass" buttons--a simple utility button that held up to just about everything.

I'd definitely be interested in more information on "throwing with a jig"--with source citations, please, so I can find more books to read!

[JimKindred]

Guys,

I appreciate your alerts but being wrong about a particular topic is not necessarily an offense on the AC, if it was we would have a lot of posts to clean out.

[Vuhginyuh]

Elizabeth, here's a good one:

Turners and Burners;The Folk Potters of North Carolina (Zug, Charles C., UNC Press, 1986) It’s an outstanding look at 19th century processes and the ''stoneware culture'' of the Sandhills and lower Piedmont. The index of early NC potters is worth the price of the book alone.

I too am interested in the jig throwing.

[John Kline]

Mr Ray, you are referring to jiggering/jolleying, right?

[bcatgrappler]

Michael, you need to double check your sources here. And then post them.

What are you talking about? Nobody else on this thread has posted sources. I am just going by what I have learned in the 5 years I have spent making pottery. John, I am not sure what jollying is, but yes I am talking about jiggering, or jigging. It is a method of making thrown pottery with a machine, rather than thrown by hand or molded.

Michael Ray

[Charles Heath]

Matt,

Did you happen to receive the photographs emailed about a week ago?

Kind of a rush job, but I hope they were okay.

[Matthew Semple]

Charles,

My apologies, I forgot to thank you for the pictures. They are great and show me exactely what you described. Thank you for your help.

[Matthew Semple]

Thank you to those who have posted and contacted me about this project.

This project is ongoing and attempts are still being made to achieve the correct shapes and glazes for these reproduction bottles. If achieved, I will post pictures of the reproductions alongside my originals. If it is determined that a quality reproduction cannot be achieved for a reasonable price, I will not pursue this project any further.

I ask for your patitience as this project is still in development and may take several more months before a quality reproduction is achieved.

[Knapsack Matt]

Hey Matt I'll show you my bottles with the makers marks at the next event.


Matt Thompson

[Kace]

I like the idea of a potential suppier. I doubt though I would purchase more than a couple unless I started home brewing again.

Kace

[Rob Weaver]

I'd be interested in repros. I have 2 originals. One I got to use reenacting and doesn't stay corked very well. The other, although I've used it, has some sentimental value. My inlaws used to live in Panama where they're very common. You see, the old trash pits in Panama (Rep of Panama) are filled with these since the gringos loved their brew back in the Gold Rush, pre-Canal, days. I got one in a shop in the Casca Vieja for a whopping $6. The first one I mentioned I know ran me less than $20. Can you keep the price for a repro that low?

[Charles Heath]

For those visiting White Oak Museum, DP had a few ginger beer (and other) repops in his "gift shop" area to the right of the desk where Momma usually sits and collects the modest admission fee.

[Rob Weaver]

I like the idea of a potential suppier. I doubt though I would purchase more than a couple unless I started home brewing again.

Kace
If you can make them available cheaply by the case, I might try brewing in them. When I tried to age in mine, the pressure blew the corks. Did I just not cork them tightly enough? Forgive my ignorance, but was beer transported in kegs then decanted off into bottles upon sale? How would you get your "bowl of beer" home?

[Vicksburg Dave]

It would seem that some troops were adept at making their own beer:


Dear Sister, from John L. Matthews, July 30, 1863, Milliken's Bend, Louisiana
"Our sutler received a large stock this week, the darkies are feasting on ginger breaad, candy and brass rings. We keep a barrel of beer on hand all the time, and drink it instead of water. Our cook makes it at the cost of about fifty cents pr. barrel."
Source: John L. Matthews Letters, State Historical Society of Iowa, Iowa City. 47th USCT

[1stMo Drummer]

Shiloh Relics has some originals for somewhat of a reasonable price,but it would be hard for me to take an original to an event and risk it getting damaged...What would the price of these repros be?

http://www.shilohrelics.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item.asp?92640

[crabby]

When I tried to age in mine, the pressure blew the corks. Did I just not cork them tightly enough?

Did you also use wire with the cork? Kind of like with champaign.

Crabby

[Charles Heath]

Forgive my ignorance, but was beer transported in kegs then decanted off into bottles upon sale? How would you get your "bowl of beer" home?

Bucket of tap.

[33rd VA Co. H]

Did you also use wire with the cork? Kind of like with champaign.

Crabby

Here is a photo taken last weekend of a broken ginger beer bottle neck dug by a friend of mine showing how the neck was wired to hold the cork.

Exactly like champaign eh Crabby. :martini_s

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4649&stc=1&d=1175719739

[Jimmayo]

They make good rolling pins.

Sorry about the wax paper.

[Knapsack Matt]

Man those apple fritters were good Jim.

Matt

[crabby]

Greg,

Your picture did not come up (at least not on my computer).


Crabby

[33rd VA Co. H]

A few weeks ago the AC saw fit to limit the amount of photos one could upload. I couldn't load more than 3 so that file was deleted to make space for others. Since then, they have corrected the problem so I'll reattach it. This is an excellent example of the correct way to wire wrap the cork into a ginger beer bottle.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5007&stc=1&d=1178719578

[crabby]

Thanks Greg. That is just about how I wired my last batch of Ginger Beer. :D

Crabby

[Amtmann]

It's called a knotless string tie. The same method was used on the Champagne bottles on the Betrand, as well as a metal clamp to hold the cork in.

[Matthew Semple]

I have spent numerous hours over the past year researching these sorts of bottles.

Two of the Approved Vendors have reproduced two of the dozen or so types of these bottles that I have identified to the period. I was hoping to reproduce all of the types of these bottles at some point via the potter that I was working with. The potter I was working with did not follow period correct techniques in regards to firing and did not produce a desirable end product...and refused to change his techniques in regards to historical accuracy.

I commend these vendors for taking my discussion to the next level and having accomplished what I have so far been unable to have reproduced according to my standards.

Please see the following Aproved Vendors and threads to see their products:

Carter and Jasper Mercantile.
Associated Thread:
http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11367&highlight=ginger+beer+bottles

Ezra Barnhous Goods.
(I know that there has been an announcement but have been unable to locate via the search function on my computer.)

As of right now, I have suspended my project. If anyone knows of a potter willing to take on the other 10 or so examples that I have researched, please let me know via PM.

[BigRonFH]

Lead Glaze?
Not for nothing was lead posioning known as "The Potter's Disease"

Glen E. Hargis
This, that, and the other
Lead poisoning may be authentic and hardcore, but I think in this instance I'd prefer to be a little farby and accept modern glazing, thank you. lol

Ron Hopkins
Co. D, 13th US Inf

[Johnny Lloyd]

Citizens, soldiers-

I have an original ginger beer bottle that has a stamp impressed into it that is oval and about 1/2 in long. The stamp is unreadable, but there are letters present. I can actually see a "W" on it. Any idea who or what could have made it according to research? I don't think a website exists for this sort-of-thing- ginger beer stamps. :confused:

-Thanks, Johnny

[Johnny Lloyd]

To all:

After a request PM from someone here... here are pictures of the original ginger beer bottle stamp.

The mark is made badly, but it looks as if it says "_AVIDSON" (presumably "Davidson") on the top of the stamp.

Moderators: If this needs to be moved to another seperate discussion, then by all means do so.

Any ID help on this one? Johnny