Provost

[bmbeeman]

With my paulsy getting worse, I'm looking into impressions other than infantry, something that would be a little easier on the legs. My unit hasA Provost unit that camps with us, and I was wondering if anyone could give some insight as to what they typically do at events, I've noticed that most of them carry side arms and I've seen a few on the field from time to time. I'm curious because from what I've noticed, it will still allow me to portray a soldier without some of the physical rigor of drill or marches.

[BrianHicks]

Specialty impressions are somewhat limited at Campaigner events.

To my recollection, I have never seen any Provost impressions at anything other than mainstream events, and then they seemed to be used as nothing more that camp guards, whose purpose seemedto be to patrol the area and keep people in their camps after taps, or folks out of the camps that they didn't belong in, and non-participants off of the field during the scheduled fights.

Perhaps there are some events that may call for a Provost impression at progressive or campaigner events, but I have not yet enconutered one.

If you would like to know more about what the Provost actually did, I'd encourage you to read the period Army regulations

Kautz's Customs of Service for Officers of the Army has this to say about the Provost Officer:



362. PROVOST MARSHAL—Provost Marshals are of two kinds. The strictly Military Provost Marshal is a Military Police officer, whose duty it is to suppress marauding and depredations, and to prevent all kinds of disturbances; to keep order and regulate drinking establishments and other resorts, and prevent drunkenness, and all kinds of disorders; to enforce orders with regard to the conduct of a camp or city, and regulations for the markets, hotels, taverns, and places of public amusement; to make searches, seizures, and arrests; to execute sentences of military courts, involving imprisonment and corporeal or capital punishment.

363. The Provost Marshal takes charge of all prisoners, whether captured from the enemy, or otherwise held; he arrests stragglers and other offenders of the command, and forwards them to their proper regiments and companies, with the written charges against them; he has the supervision of the passes of officers and soldiers, and signs the passes to citizens authorized within the lines for trade or other purposes; he investigates complaints of citizens arising from the conduct of the troops; and may have charge of scouts and spies employed in the command.

364. Such is the character of the duties that are usually assigned to the Provost Marshal, but usually only some part of them would fall to his lot at one time, unless at the headquarters of an army, where the Provost Marshal might have all the foregoing, and more too, to attend to. It is only in time of war that a Provost Marshal is greatly needed, and then he is an officer of great importance, and should not be dispensed with, and he should be selected with reference to his fitness and capacity for the duty.

365. To establish a bureau to control the enrollment of the militia, the enlistment of volunteers and to execute the draft the Provost Marshal General’s Department was organized, first by the War Department, and subsequently by act of Congress. (G. 0., No. 140, 1862; Act March 3d, 1863, sec. 5.) Provost Marshals were appointed for each Congressional District, each Territory, and the District of Columbia, and Deputy Provost Marshals to assist them were authorized, who, in addition to enrolling and drafting, were charged with the arrest and confinement of deserters, spies, and persons resisting or interfering with the enrollment or draft.

366. The District Provost Marshals were appointed from civil life, and were under the orders of the Provost Marshal of the State, and all received their orders and instructions from the Provost Marshal General at Washington. This Provost Marshal system, improperly named, was called into existence by the necessity of raising large armies to suppress the rebellion, which being achieved, the necessity for such a bureau no longer exists, although there is no doubt a bureau.where the enrollment of the male population of the country could be kept correctly, would be of vast assistance in the event of another war.

367. In the field the Provost Marshals were selected from the line officers, and varied in rank from Lieutenants to Generals. They were attached to brigades, divisions, corps, and armies, and often local Provost Marshals for cities, towns, and districts, were appointed, and even detachments, operating independently for a few days, had their Provost Marshals for the time being to look after stragglers, marauders, and pillagers, and to take charge of prisoners.

Here's a quick blurb off of another site:

Beginning in 1861, regimental provost marshals were formed in the Army of the Potomac. The organization was later expanded to division, corps, and army levels, with each Federal Army having a Provost Marshal General. By the fall of 1862, provost marshals were operating in all northern states, with primary duties of capturing deserters. A similar system existed in the Confederate Army; provost marshals were appointed to enforce conscription and other laws.

[huntdaw]

Brian,

If I am not mistaken, there were some of the Ground Hornets serving as a working Provost at Corinth. They were constantly on the go from what they tell me. I believe Tom Yearby, Doug Cooper and Mitch Critel among others were involved in this. Tom told me it worked him to death because they were always on the go. Perhaps one of them can add something and tell us what all they were kept busy at.

I agree that a Provost impression at a mainstream event usually seems to be pretty limited in activity and often stand around trying to look like MP's or acts as a camp guard while the battle is going on. I've also seen some attempts to do scenarios but have never seen one pulled off in a convincing manner. Not to say there are not those that can do it - I have just never seen it.

[Hank Trent]

he has the supervision of the passes of officers and soldiers, and signs the passes to citizens authorized within the lines for trade or other purposes; he investigates complaints of citizens arising from the conduct of the troops

I've dealt with provost marshalls at c/p/h events a few times, due to the above circumstances, needing a pass signed or having complaints about soldiers stealing things or causing damage. I suspect though that I've only seen the tip of the iceberg if it's a fully functional impression; it sounds like a challenging and complex role.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[BrianHicks]

Brian,

If I am not mistaken, there were some of the Ground Hornets serving as a working Provost at Corinth. They were constantly on the go from what they tell me. I believe Tom Yearby, Doug Cooper and Mitch Critel among others were involved in this. Tom told me it worked him to death because they were always on the go. Perhaps one of them can add something and tell us what all they were kept busy at.

I agree that a Provost impression at a mainstream event usually seems to be pretty limited in activity and often stand around trying to look like MP's or acts as a camp guard while the battle is going on. I've also seen some attempts to do scenarios but have never seen one pulled off in a convincing manner. Not to say there are not those that can do it - I have just never seen it.

Yes..there were Provosts active at Corinth. And I know that some good fellas were prtraying the roles. But, I'm hesitanat to classify that event as one that truly quaifies as an H/P/C type activity. (yeah... it tried... and in some few elements reached far...)

[sgtbiggen]

Brett
Mr. Hicks has given some good imformation. However when going to an event it is best if you contact the people running said event and coordinate with them on what they want to do. Provost did everything from being in charge of prisoners, obtaining Military intelligence, keeping civil order, Special Guard and Security missions. Then you get into stuff as Moving Cars that are park where they do not belong where there parked dealing with traffic issue.
Being Provost Marshal or even a Provost Guard you have to be very moble at times and to think quick on your feet.

Michael Pierpoint

[Kevin O'Beirne]

Provost Marshals in the Civil War were used in two ways:

* At the brigade level and above. The Provost Marshal was usually a junior field officer (Major or Lt. Col.) and had a detail of men assigned to him. In one Eastern Federal infantry brigade I've studied some the provost was a Lt. Col. and he had two companies assigned to him, or (at the time) about 170 men and officers. At that time, the brigade numbered about 3,300 men. That I've seen, regiments and companies did not have "provosts"; rather, a regular camp police guard detail could suffice to do what reenactors often have a "provost" doing.

* Provost Marshals were sometimes assigned to a specific geographic location, whether it was on the march ("guard this town from depredation") or in a rear area city. These men would, of course, have a detail of men assigned to them. The rank of the provost marshal depended on the size of the area he was guarding, number of men under his command, and level of overall responsibility. I had an ancestor who was the Provost Marshal of Washington D.C. in 1865 when President Lincoln was assassinated and he was a Major/Brevet Lt. Col. of the Veteran Reserve Corps at the time. In addition to keeping order when it was beyond the local police department's ability, he was charged with arresting deserters and others wanted by the military and with enforcing the draft.

Now, what reenactors have "provosts" do is, often, altogether another story from what Civil War provosts did. I've seen a lot of reenactments have as a "provost marshal" a non-comm or even a private, and assign no one to help him. Often the "provost" at many reenactor events is a sort of combination "authenticity cop" (often without the ability to do much about violations) and "guy who superintends parking of cars" and stuff like that.

At most "campaigner" events a provost is not required because there's little need for guarding against depredations unless it's part of a scripted scenario or portrayal, and hopefully the "violations of good order" that happen can be dealt with using less than a full provost guard detail. At some mainstream events, including some I used to help run in the mid-1990s, we needed "provosts" to help keep the nighttime drunks under control and keep modern vehicles out of the camps until Sunday afternoon. Again, a lot of what many reenactor events have a "provost" do can be handled by an ordinary camp police guard detail.

[bmbeeman]

Brett
Mr. Hicks has given some good imformation. However when going to an event it is best if you contact the people running said event and coordinate with them on what they want to do. Provost did everything from being in charge of prisoners, obtaining Military intelligence, keeping civil order, Special Guard and Security missions. Then you get into stuff as Moving Cars that are park where they do not belong where there parked dealing with traffic issue.
Being Provost Marshal or even a Provost Guard you have to be very moble at times and to think quick on your feet.

Michael Pierpoint

This impression sounds like a lot of fun, and it looks less demanding (physically) than infantry, I might get in contact with out Provost department and look into what the impression encompasses, it sounds like a lot of fun.

[dusty27]

Brett,

You mentioned wanting to stay in a military role, but once that is impossible, you may want to think about helping with logistics at events. This will help the organizers, keep you involved in the hobby and allows you freedom to eat, sleep, and medicate as needed.

Just a thought

[ephraim_zook]

Brett,

You mentioned wanting to stay in a military role, but once that is impossible, you may want to think about helping with logistics at events. This will help the organizers, keep you involved in the hobby and allows you freedom to eat, sleep, and medicate as needed.

Just a thought

Dusty's comment should be well taken. I've been involved with several events now as part of the organizing staff / logistical staff as well as participating at the same time. It is virtually impossible to be a participant AND on the event staff and really enjoy the event. When you have the keys to the pickup truck in your pocket and there's a sick guy to be transported, guess who gets to leave the event to take him?

Ron Myzie

[Johan Steele]

As an aside on the subject of the Provost Guard have any of you gents come across accounts of Provost detachments taking part in a battle against regular troops, not irregulars? I have read accounts of Provost troops being released back to their Regiments at Gettysburg and subsequently suffering 50% casualties and then a similar account of a Provost detachment seeing some hot action at Chickamauga. The rub to me was seeing almost the same info, literally almost word for word, referring to Provost troops at the battle for Atlanta which led me to question the source and I have never been able to confirm the accounts. My suspicious nature has only made the matter more questionable in my mind. I have never seen corroborating evidence to such notes; have any of you?

Thank You.

[DougCooper]

As an aside on the subject of the Provost Guard have any of you gents come across accounts of Provost detachments taking part in a battle against regular troops, not irregulars? I have read accounts of Provost troops being released back to their Regiments at Gettysburg and subsequently suffering 50% casualties and then a similar account of a Provost detachment seeing some hot action at Chickamauga. The rub to me was seeing almost the same info, literally almost word for word, referring to Provost troops at the battle for Atlanta which led me to question the source and I have never been able to confirm the accounts. My suspicious nature has only made the matter more questionable in my mind. I have never seen corroborating evidence to such notes; have any of you?

Thank You.

Happened several times - perhaps the most famous is Co C, 1st Minnesota at Gettysburg. They were the Provost Guard of 2nd Div 2nd Corps. As the CS assault neared the Angle on July 3, Co C was ordered forward into the fight from behind division HQ. There was no time to release them back to the regiment, which attacked northward into the Angle from their spot on the stone wall (what was left of them after 70% casualties the day before). Co C quickly lost their company commander killed among other casualties but captured the battleflag of the 28th Virginia. Co C missed the sacrifice on July 2 so this was their only action at Gettysburg - they did well.

[Silas]

This is a link to the posted proposal for the AoT provost entity (http://www.nsalliance.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=190). Due to limited html qualities on the NSA forum, the formatting does not look as good as in the written version of the document. The words remain the same. Appearance/formatting can make a document easier to read.

The proposal isn't an end-all-be-all, but it is a well thought out document for implementing a provost entity at an event. I call it an entity because it is better described as a police guard in period terminology. Call it a police guard to reenactors, and they have a tendency to freak out.

They won't be carrying any hokey sheriff's badges or bandages to designate their status as provost. The fixed bayonet is the badge which designates them as members of the police guard or provost entity.

[KeystoneGuard]

Mr. Beeman,

If you are still interested in learning more about the Provost Guard please give me an e-mail at captain147pa@netzero.net. I am the current Provost Marshal for a division. I would be more than happy to share with you what our men do.

Your servant,

Andre Wagner, Captain

[Kevin O'Beirne]

I am the current Provost Marshal for a division. I would be more than happy to share with you what our men do.


What duties are those? Please share them here on the forum.

[KeystoneGuard]

To all:

I apologzie, I should have listed the duties right off the cuff. The following duties are for at reenactments, if one would like to know the actual duties you would have to read Kautz's manual and also the Laws of War.

Duties for reenactment provosts:

1. Ensure safety and security at all events
2. Protect camp during drill
3. Protect General Officer's during battle
4. Act as a liaison between corp, division, brigade, regimental, and company
5. Serve living history functions: i.e. guard duty, assist in court martials, and much much more.
6. Liaison between Emergency crews (i.e. police, ems, fire)

The position of Provost is a very loose one. It is very hard to find documentation about exactly what they did, because nobody really liked them (nothing has changed since then in reenactments or modern military).

Unfortunaley some groups who use provosts, have given the position a bad name by making them farbi nazi's (excuse the term nazi, I do not want to offend anyone for lack of a better term).

During my time as Provost Marshal, I have helped conduct actual "real" searches for lost/stolen items (its a shame that things like this actually do happen and this time it was one of our own that stole the equipment). Our provost department is able to perform this service because we have folks who are police officers in real life or folks with degrees in Criminal Justice. I hope this explains a little more.

I understand there are people in our hobby who have no time for provosts and I am sorry they feel like this, unfortunatley those are the people who have had bad experiences with them (probably event personnel who aren't reenactors but posing as them for the event or reenactors on a power trip that need to be knocked down a peg or two).

Thank you gentlemen

Andre Wagner, Captain
Provost Marshal

[Kevin O'Beirne]

1. Ensure safety and security at all events
2. Protect camp during drill

Someone has to do it, as a modern task. How are Nos. 1 and 2 different? These could also be done by a decently-organized and -led camp police guard.


3. Protect General Officer's during battle

As in, bodyguards? During battle, shouldn't the provost guard instead handle prisoners?

4. Act as a liaison between corp, division, brigade, regimental, and company

This is something I'm not understanding at all. Liason-type duties are not the purview of the provost guard but, rather, those of the commanding officers and the Officer of the Day (regimental level), Field Officer of the Day (brigade level), and General Officer of the Day (division level).

5. Serve living history functions: i.e. guard duty, assist in court martials, and much much more.

Is this similar to Nos. 1 and 2? Also, does the organization use camp police guard details?

6. Liaison between Emergency crews (i.e. police, ems, fire)

Real-life necessary duties, although this also strikes me as possibly being better handled by the organization's Officer of the Day.

None of these comments are intended in a poor vein; rather, to contrast how a reenactor group views the duties of the provost and how period military structure handled them. Admittedly, camp security and having someone reliable to interface with modern services are vital roles that probably should not rotate from one (possibly half-informed) officer to the next.

[KeystoneGuard]

1. Ensure safety and security at all events
2. Protect camp during drill

Someone has to do it, as a modern task. How are Nos. 1 and 2 different? These could also be done by a decently-organized and -led camp police guard.


3. Protect General Officer's during battle

As in, bodyguards? During battle, shouldn't the provost guard instead handle prisoners?

4. Act as a liaison between corp, division, brigade, regimental, and company

This is something I'm not understanding at all. Liason-type duties are not the purview of the provost guard but, rather, those of the commanding officers and the Officer of the Day (regimental level), Field Officer of the Day (brigade level), and General Officer of the Day (division level).

5. Serve living history functions: i.e. guard duty, assist in court martials, and much much more.

Is this similar to Nos. 1 and 2? Also, does the organization use camp police guard details?

6. Liaison between Emergency crews (i.e. police, ems, fire)

Real-life necessary duties, although this also strikes me as possibly being better handled by the organization's Officer of the Day.

None of these comments are intended in a poor vein; rather, to contrast how a reenactor group views the duties of the provost and how period military structure handled them. Admittedly, camp security and having someone reliable to interface with modern services are vital roles that probably should not rotate from one (possibly half-informed) officer to the next.
Kevin,

I have to agree with you in the fact that the liaison business should be handled by the officer of the day or Chief of Staff, unfortunatley trying to keep these important gentlemen in camp for and know where they are is another story. I also agree that the Police Guard should do there part but trying to rouse men for the job is very difficult so we take care of the duties. We do protect the General(s) and his staff and also take care of prisoners, stragglers, protect the flanks when necessary and so on. We are a "jack of all trades" company eventhough these duties would not have necessarily been performed by the provost guard however the position as I stated before is a reenactorism (for lack of better term). It would not be needed but is helpful at times. It is my wish that no one has to deal with the provost's I've dealt with in the past. We all have seen them, the ones who think just because they have a badge (the badge isn't 100% authentic although one can be found in Echoes, but that topic opens another can of worms), means they are the greatest thing since Hardtack, ha ha. I to0 do not want any of my comments taken in vein either, every group is different as you stated and that is what keeps our hobby interesting.

I remain your humble servant,

Andre Wagner, Captain
Provost Marshal

[SCTiger]

I hate to throw cold water on any good discussion about the functioning of period military life, but Kevin has a good point about the necessity of a PM within the scope of the scenario or the event. Many events don't need a provost anymore than they need a train conductor.

This is the point where specialty impressions need more in the way of support, inclusions, occupation and planning within the group. In truth, most units can't even find honest work for their officers, sergeants, quartermasters, corporals, adjutants, teamsters, corpsmen, mechanics, laborers and sometimes the civilians too. So without proper period employment (PPE), the specialty impressionist will either: A) sit around camp or B) take on some modern duties to justify their existence.

This isn't to say that the role of the PM wouldn't be appreciated if it was utilized correctly, I am just stating that their are many common Army duties that aren't being mastered, lets get those up and running first, before we have 5-20 provost marshals attending an event that has no functioning headquarters or company level offices.

Courier is a very useful and needed role.

[BrianHicks]

I've yet to attend a Campaigner event at which Provosts were represented (or for that matter... any rank above Colonel... and this was only once.... the Federal Commander at Rich Mtn).

Perhaps it's the peculiarity of our end of the Hobby, but Camp Guards, duties of the Officer of the Guard and Officer of the Day, etc. have always been rigidly adhered to, with these men working hard, and always being present.

At big (often called) National Events, I can see where some of the Duties as listed previously would need to be consolidated into a select few people. At events of such size with multitudes of spectators with quadruple digit participants, such a core group performing these duties are indispensable.

But I must ask.... at Campaigner events, shouldn't we concern ourselves more with what the duties of the Provost are, as detailed in the period references, vice what modern (dare I say it) large Mainstream organizations have their Provosts do at the Mega Events?

[KeystoneGuard]

Gentlemen,

In an attempt to prevent this discussion from turning into a civil war of its own (between mainstreamers and campaigners), I vote we lay this topic to rest. We have beat it to death over what looks to me a 3 - 4 year period. It is obvious that none of us really know what the provost's did. We have somewhat of an idea but not exactly. We also all agree that they are not needed at Campaigner events (I agree to this) and that we all agree that other positions (like couriers, which I've done in the past) are more of a necessity than PG's.

Your servant,
Andre Wagner, Captain
Provost Marshal

[Kevin O'Beirne]

I have to agree with you in the fact that the liaison business should be handled by the officer of the day or Chief of Staff, unfortunatley trying to keep these important gentlemen in camp for and know where they are is another story.

That I'm aware of, Civil War division commanders did not have a "chief of staff" and I believe that position was at the field-army level and above.

The problem of an Officer of the Day or higher rank deserting their commands and not telling anyone where they are going, and for how long, is pandemic in most reenactor circles and, to me, implies not just a lack of basic leadership ability, but complete lack of understanding of leadership concepts.

We do protect the General(s) and his staff and also take care of prisoners, stragglers, protect the flanks when necessary and so on.

For the sake of discussion...

The divisional or brigade staff should be doing their jobs during a "battle", including communicating with subordinate units and higher authority, and other functions of a brigadier's staff.

Regarding having a provost detail guard the flanks of a military command, I've never heard of such a thing being done in practice in the Civil War. Flanks were guarded by skirmishers, cavalry videttes, or anchored on some geographic feature like a stream, or (sometimes) merely "left in the air". During a battle, the provost guard was usually too busy corraling prisoners to deal with other tasks. It may be worth it to bring up to your commander why some infantry companies or platoons are not being detailed to guard the flanks of the command.

That I understand, provost marshals were used at the brigade level and above and, at the brigade level, were usually junion field officers (majors and lieutenant colonels). One of my favorite brigades of the war, early in its service (late 1862) had about 3,000 men among four regiments, and its provost marshal at the time was the lieutenant colonel of one of the regiments who had as his provost guard two companies (about 160 men and officers). That's about five percent of the command. Among this brigade, I've seen no documentation of the provost marshal or the provost guard wearing or poessessing any type of distinctive "sheriff's badge" like one often sees at many reenactments (one event in my region has the "provost marhals" wearing red armbands that say either "PM" or "PG"--interpret those acronyms as you will, because these guys aren't doing anything that even faintly resembles period provost marshal/guard duties, and that includes the reenactor PM/PG's typical heavy drinking).

What I'm not clear on is just what the provost guard of a brigade did. POWs from a battle were usually turned over to the division (and higher) provost marshal--certainly brigade level provosts didn't lead POWs far to the rear--and the camp police guard could typically handle disturbances in the camp and virtually always handled camp security. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually found out that brigade-level provost guard details were rare.

As for an earlier post that seemed to imply that provost duty was disliked by the men, I've seen period letters and memoirs from men detailed to provost duty for months at a time and they seemed to love it, except for the separation from their comrades in their home regiment. The duty was regarded as light, and the hours somewhat regular compared to being on a picket line and standing guard on and off throughout the night and following day.

While provosts are common in reenacting, one doesn't see all that much about them (without doing some digging) from the period. Each brigade and higher probably had a provost marshal at some time, and certainly provost guards were appointed to guard certain geographic localities, like keeping a town from being looted. In the Army of the Potomac, provost marshal Marsena Patrick was also ostensibly responsible for obtaining and analyzing military intelligence (spies, ballon observations, reading enemy newspapers, collecting and collating reports from cavalry scouts, etc.) but in reality that was done, starting in early 1863, by the AOP's Bureau of Military Intelligence (BMI) headed by (if I recall correctly) Col. John Sharpe. Sharpe was under Patrick in theory, but as I understand it in actual practice the BMI was semi-autonomous and often reported directly to the army commander.

[Charles Heath]

This thread is well past time for a lock down and hosing off, as it has violated the prime directive. Folks, reenacting other reenactors is not reenacting history.