Tait Trousers?

[5th Texas]

Did the Peter Tait Company supply a certain pattern trousers with their (well documented) jackets? Did they supply trousers at all?
I know repro makers will knock off a pair of "Richmond" pattern trousers in the same English Army cloth that they will make your Tait jacket out of. But I was wondering if any trousers made by the Tait company survive, and if so, were there any distinct features about them?
There are many well known late war references by Confederate soldiers about being issued new sets of "clothes" made from blue-gray English cloth. And they almost always say clothes, not jackets, so the jackets and trousers must have been issued in sets. I hit the search button on this topic but nothing came up that was very conclusive.

[5th Texas]

Well, either I brought up a topic so uninteresting that no one thought twice about it.
Or it has been hashed over before and your waiting for me to figure it out.
Or I stumped y'all on this one.
Which is it? :confused:

[hendrickms24]

Which is it? :confused:


Or maybe the person with the correct answer hasn't wondered thru yet. Relax its only been a couple days! :beer_yum:

[DougCooper]

The answer is yes. There are refs in manifests and contract documents to "suits" of Tait uniforms (jacket and trousers), and we had quite the disertation from Bob MacDonald about 2 years ago on this forum. It may be gone unfortunately. There is a pair of likely Tait trousers in a collection in Maryland if memory serves. Meanwhile, here is a photo of a pair of blue gray kersey trousers belonging to ....in the Texas State History museum in Sugarland Texas. This may have been imported made up or made from imported cloth in Shreveport, based on the likely point of issue for the soldier, an artillerymen named Henry Brunet, who wore the uniform home from the war.

[Richmond Depot]

Randy, in response to your comment that "repro.makers will knock off a pair of Richmond Trousers" I do NOT offer trousers in this fabric and pattern because I have not seen an original pair to duplicate.

For trivia, do you know that the trousers that you refer to as "Richmond" pattern are actually a civillian pattern ? A similar pair exists in the NPS Museum at Sharpsburg documented to a Federal Officer.

[Jimmayo]

Here is a post war picture of Abner Williamson Grandy, Company B, 61st Va. Inf.

Could he be wearing English Kersey jacket and pants? You decide.

[5th Texas]

Thanks to all for the good info and pictures.
Scott, I know your high standards of authenticity and was not refering to you, but was making a generalized comment.

I came across the following web site from the U.K.
Being both British and American Civil War buffs, I suppose they are qualified to comment on the British textile industry's relationship with the Confederacy:
http://www.acws.co.uk/archives/military/anvblue.htm

[DougCooper]

The uniform below belonged to Henry Brunet, a Lousiana artilleryman. He wore the uniform home at the end of the war and speculation has it being issued in either Shreveport or Mobile, stops for whom en route Texas.

If anyone has the contact info for Bob MacDonald, who has quite a detailed first hand knowledge of the subject, perhaps we can get him to reprise his excellent disertation on the pair of Tait trousers known to survive. I tried just about everything search wise and it appears to have been lost in the recent meltdown.

[Ian M.]

The answer is yes. There are refs in manifests and contract documents to "suits" of Tait uniforms (jacket and trousers), and we had quite the disertation from Bob MacDonald about 2 years ago on this forum. It may be gone unfortunately. There is a pair of likely Tait trousers in a collection in Maryland if memory serves. Meanwhile, here is a photo of a pair of blue gray kersey trousers belonging to ....in the Texas State History museum in Sugarland Texas. This may have been imported made up or made from imported cloth in Shreveport, based on the likely point of issue for the soldier, an artillerymen named Henry Brunet, who wore the uniform home from the war.

Just picked up this thread since I had the same question about english army BG kersey trousers. The reference above points to a photo which seems to be lacking in the post. Doug are you out there and do you still have access or a URL for this photo?

[Joe Walker]

I have looked over one pair of RD BG Kersey pants. They were at the CW show at Gburg in 1998. I was alowed to roll up the pants legs and check out the linen reenforcement in front (about 5" high) and the back (about 2" high). I folded them flat on the side and noted the fronts of the cuff was about 3/4" higher than in the back. This table also had two RD BG kersy jackets and a grey jean jacket with NC buttons. I couldn't belive my eyes, and how I was able to handle them. I think they are in fact the ones in EOG, but I couldn't swear to it. An old pard from the 2nd Maryland was with me, Dennis Ream (of Fredrick Maryland) who has a couple of nice jackets himself. If they were Bob McDonald's I can't say since I didn't get the man's name, but it was a well-known collector at the time.


Joe Walker

[tmdreb]

Here is the link to the photo Doug was referring to: http://www.museumofsouthernhistory.org/henrybrunet.asp

[DougCooper]

Another shot of the Brunet uniform, courtesy of KC MacDonald, Lazy Jacks. Note the japanned tin button on the trousers.

[jacobite8749]

The invoices to Minter (re: Dave Burt) show on the 29 Nov 1864 5,000 suits Infantry uniforms in 60 bales at 18 shillings and 6 pence from TAIT. It also shows 5375 Military jackets, 5350 at 10 shillings and pair trousers at 8 shillings from Hebbert and Co.

On 19 December it shows another 5,000 suits Infantry uniforms in 60 Bales again at 18 shillings and 6 pence. Hebbert adds 150 pairs of pantaloons at 8 shillings and 117 jackets at 10 shillings.

These are the order shipped on the Aderlaide, who sailed on the 19th. November 1864, originally intended to land at Mobile (A. Collie changed her destination) and ended up at Galverston. The invoice says the destination was Havanna, but that may be to throw off blockaders.

My point being, the cost is about 18/6d or 18s a set from either contractor. So yes they sent trousers, whether they ever arrived anywhere is another matter.

I assume that Tait, Hebbert and Crombie jackets are all made to a similar spec. all with British size markings.

[Ian M.]

Many thanks gents for the added info. That photo from Lazy Jacks of the Henry Brunet jacket and trousers in blue-grey kersey is very interesting in that much detail can be seen. I'm certainly no expert but the jacket looks to be similar to a Richmond Depot 3, though with only 7 buttons. Tait jackets usually had shoulder straps right? Also, the Taits I've seen (just a few, in the usual printed sources) appear to have a light colored thread in the button hole and top stitching whereas this jacket appears to have a dark thread.

Should we therefore assume that this set was made up this side of the Atlantic from imported English Army BG wool? Another interesting point would be the type of buttons on the jacket. Anyone know?

[jacobite8749]

As a guide:
Does it have British size markings in it, American, or none?
Is the lining linen, cotton, or something else?
Are there buttons marked P.TAIT LIMERICK, Hebbert & Co. Pall Mall, or something else? (James Tait had buttons made up marked R.T. Tait, but these never went on a P. Tait jacket)
In his book on his grandfather, John Waite says that the only way to confirm a P.TAIT is by the buttons,. P.TAIT LIMERICK. Having seen a Crombie jacket, I'd go along with that. All imported jackets made from "English Army" cloth are not just made by P. Tait. various manufactures, Hebbert & Co. as well as J. & J. Crombie, in addition a number of others yet be discovered made them in the UK.

Richmond Dept. made jackets using the same or similar cloth perhaps from 1863 onwards. Houston Dept. also imported the same, or similar cloth (Tait bought the cloth too, he never made it) and made them in Texas.

So, I'd say never say never....

We may never know. The chances of finding that the Adelaide docked in Galaverston on ?? ?? 1864, and the goods were booked in by Ben Doon, shipped to Houston on ?? ?? 1865 and issued, according to his service record to Phil McCavity on ?? ?? 1865 is remote to say the least. BUT????

[Seamus]

In the Museum of the Confederacy Collection

Directory Name: Permanent Collections
Accession No.: 0985.9.54a
Object Name: PANTS
Artist/Maker: Tait, Peter
Description: Cadet gray wool cloth with red (now light pink) piping down outer seams, inner facings and pockets are unbleached cotton sacking, black horn buttons.
Owner/User: Glennan, Michael G. Lt.
Military Unit: 2nd North Carolina Artillery (36th North Carolina State Troops); ADC, Col. William Lamb
Place Made: Ireland, , , Limerick, Peter Tait
History: Michael G. Glennan wore this pair of pants and shell jacket (.54) as part of his Confederate uniform. Described as a "cripple and exempt from service," Glennan left his home city of Norfolk, Virginia (occupied by Federal troops), and enlisted in the 2nd North Carolina Artillery (36th North Carolina State Troops). Promoted to Quartermaster Sergeant, Glennan held the rank of Lt. while serving as Aide-de-Camp to Col. William Lamb, commander at Fort Fisher. Glennan was among the defenders of Fort Fisher and surrendered with the garrison in January 1865. He was exchanged and paroled in Norfolk in April 1865.
Images: B & W Print-#6772 B & W Print-#6773

[jacobite8749]

James, thank you, good post.

These are perhaps (I say that because? ) the first, and only instalment of clothing in respect of James Tait’s “1st. Confederate” contract which left Limerick on August 1864 on the “Condor”. A surviving quartermaster report in the Richmond Depot book records the arrival of 4,400 jackets and trousers on December 29th 1864. These are perhaps the only documented part of the Tait contract that we will ever know.

The “Condor”, was a brand new three funnelled steamer built on the Clyde in Glasgow and is a well documented ship, sailing from Greenock, near Glasgow, Scotland, on the 16th. August 1864 . Other of Collie uniforms in the shipment were possibley J & J Crombie, having been shipped via the Caledonian canal. Another part of the cargo being the passengers, one of which was Rose O’Neil Greenhow, on her way back to report to Jeff Davis.

The Captain was a Samuel S. Ridge. As a blockade runner captain he used a number of names, Capt. Hewitt, Capt. Roberts, (when he commanded the DON) and Capt. Gulick amongst others. His real name was Augustus Charles Hobart-Hampden, third and youngest son of the sixth Earl of Buckingham and a Victoria Cross holder from the Russian War, were he led cutlass armed British troops aboard Russian battleships. He had already figured in one international incident when he picked up Slidell and Mason at Provincetown and took them to England in a British ship. Afterwards he became an Admiral in the Turkish Navy.

The “Condor” ran aground on the 7th October 1864, after being pursued by the USS Niphon, off New Inlet below Fort Fisher. It was on this ship that Rose O’Neil Greenhow, the Confederate spy lost her life. She was only fatality of the night, as she was being taken to safety. It is not surprising that Mrs Rose O’Neil Greenhow came back via a Collie ship as she was a frequent visitor at 17 Leadshall Street, Collie’s “dark office”. When her body was found it was taken to Col. Lamb’s home.

[jacobite8749]

All the "connections" are there, Fort Fisher, Col. Lamb, The Condor. Perhaps not all the cargo got as far as Richmond? lots of "possibles".

My worries in it all "inner facings and pockets are unbleached cotton sacking, black horn buttons".
Did TAIT, or any British company use poor cotton? why not linen like the jacket linings!
Do horn buttons sound like a British Army item? why not black jappanned tin, like some of the others!

Sadly we do not have a written spec for British made jackets and trousers, so much is left to imagination, and sometimes we classify items because it kinda sounds right, like the above trousers. What we do know about TAIT is that his goods would have been to a similar quality as British Army goods.