Greatcoats rolled ontop of knapsacks?

[bAcK88]

Hi all,

I have a question that I haven't been able to solve by myself so I turn to the members of this board for some assistance. My question is has anyone seen an image of a Federal soldier with a greatcoat rolled on top of his knapsack or is it a reenactorism?

All of the images that I have seen of Federals with knapsacks on had their blankets rolled on top of their knapsacks. Unfortunately I can't post any images because most of my stuff is back home in CT and I don't want to violate copyright laws. However if anyone owns Echoes of Battle: The Struggle for Chattanooga on page 98 Corporal Cornelius A. O'Callaghan and on page 105 Corporals Jackson Webster and John Doughty have their blankets rolled on top of their knapsacks. I don't know the dates of the images so it is possible that thier greatcoats are in storage, however I have never seen a greatcoat rolled on a Civil War soldier carrying his knapsack. Also in the US Army Regulations published in 1861 it stated that the soldier would roll his blanket on top and fold the greatcoat and carry it inside the pack, however the vast majority of the US Army were volunteers and as shown in the thread about being "poor" soldiers, some Army regulations.

I'm not trying to start something, I just wanted to know if there is any evidence that soldiers rolled their greatcoats.

Thank you,
Bill Backus

[Rob Murray]

Bill,
I do not believe it is a re-enactorism. I have an uncropped 8 1/2x11 copy of an image of Patrick Henry and Issac Lyman Taylor, Co. E, 1st Minnesota Vols. that was published in Richard Moes' book "The Last Full Measure, The Life and Death of the First Minnesota Volunteers" credited to William Frassantino. I don't where my copy was taken from, (as I won it in a raffle) could have been Steve Osman, Frassantino or P.H. Taylors desendents as we did a memorial to P.H.Taylor a number of years ago. Any how, I can see P.H.Taylors rolled up greatcoat on top and his blanket folded in his knapsack(can see the blanket stripe). Other items of note both are wearing dark blue trousers (P.H. has rolled his), P.H.s' sack coat appears to be darker than Issacs (could be lighting?) both appear to be wearing boots(P.H.s' light and Issacs dark), both have cups hanging from haversacks, P.H. is wearing gauntlets with what looks like 3 small issue buttons sewn on them and minimal hat brass(P.H. appears to have a letter). The image is thought to have been taken at Camp Stone, Maryland. December 1861. Hope this helps.

I am hesitant to post the image with Kevin O. being ripped off and all the talk of copyright infringment on the threads these days

Rob Murray
Minnesota First

[Seamus]

Bill,

From Revised U.S. Army Regulations of 1861, Article XIII, 96.
The knapsack of each man
will be placed on the lower shelf of his bunk, at its foot, packed
with his effects, and ready to be slung; the great-coat on the same
shelf, rolled and strapped; the coat, folded inside out, and placed
under the knapsack; the cap on the second or upper shelf; and the
boots well cleaned.

Quartermaster returns usually refer to knapsacks and overcoat straps.

Often in the spring or at the beginning of a campaign overcoats were packed in boxes, marked and stored. Troops, generally, would not have access to their overcoats during the summer months.

James Permane,
15th U.S. Infantry/4th Fla. Vol's

[Kevin O'Beirne]

The leather straps that go through the loops on top of a knapsack of the era were called "overcoat straps". Figured that piece of info might be worth something here. :)

Now, why would it be that one often sees photos of Federals with blankets on their knapsacks instead of overcoats? One answer may be because, in the first half or so of the war, it was common for Yanks to toss their overcoat on the first march of the spring campaign season and, in the second half of the war, it was typical that a Yank's overcoat was collected by the army for storage until being returned to him in the autumn. Thus, during much of the active campaign season, Federals did not have overcoats.

For campaigns in cooler weather, it was probably somewhat rare for troops to wear an overcoat on the march unless it was really cold (Mine Run campaign might be one example, Stone's River another). If it wasn't worn, where was it carried? The overcoat straps atop the knapsack are the only place it could easily be carried. A blanket folds up fairly uniformly and can be easily put inside a knapsack (assuming the pack is not loaded like the image of "How Si Started In"), but there's few good ways to fold up an overcoat so it fits in the pack as nicely as a blanket would. Further, a soldier would probably want the overcoat on the pack instead of inside it, just in case he needed to get at it if it got cold. Thus, it made practical sense to do as the army and knapsack manufacturer intended and carry the rolled up overcoat on the pack, with the blanket inside it.

[markj]

Two additional bits, for what they're worth:

New York Times, 30 November 1862:

GEN. BUTLER'S ORDERS.

A REVIEW.

INSPECTOR-GENERAL'S OFFICE
HEADQUARTERS DEPARTMENT OF THE GULF,
NEW-ORLEANS, Nov. 18, 1862.

[This section specifies the order of inspection for the following units: 26th Massachussetts Volunteer Infantry, 30th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry, 9th Connecticut Volunteer Infantry, 2nd Massachusetts Light Artillery Battery, and "The Three Batteries of Regulars, under the command of Capt. DURYEA, U.S.A."]

VI. This inspection is intended to be thorough and complete. The troops will be formed promptly at the hour designated, on their usual parade grounds, in full marching order, with knapsacks properly packed, containing great coat and blanket. All clothing belonging to the soldier must be either in his knapsack or upon his person.

******************

By order of Maj.-Gen. B. F. BUTLER.
N. A. M. DUDLEY, Col. and Act. Inspector-General.


New York Times, 12 August 1863:

[Letter from correspondent "C. L. B." bylined "WINCHESTER, TENN., Tuesday, Aug. 4., 1863. Letter goes into extensive detail about camp conditions in that part of Rosecrans' army he was visiting:

Soldier's camps in Summer are by no means romantic or interesting things; villages of arbors, covered with brown branches, dirty, hot and sweltering, with tin cups, newspapers, blankets and equipments lying about in confusion; long lines of mules and horses, kicking and fly-bitten, the men sauntering under trees or about the stations in flannel shirts and trowsers. Every one who could was reading newspapers, and all were orderly and well-behaved.***Nothing will ever give us rapid marches and efficient movements but a reduction of transportation. The men in this climate have already abandoned their knapsacks. The officers ought to be equally cut down in their comforts and luxuries.

NOTE: I don't want to draw too much from the above items, but these suggest two things:

1. Greatcoats, when carried, may well have been placed inside knapsacks rather than strapped to the top, assuming there was enough room.

2. In the case of the second letter, which indicates many, if not all, troops didn't even have knapsacks on which to strap greatcoats (assuming they were still in their possession anyway), your question is interesting but, depending on the scenario, may well be irrelevant.

Thoughts?

Mark Jaeger

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Regulations for the 7th NYSM, with their special militia box knapsacks, were clear: "In marching order, the overcoat is to be rolled and secured on top of the knapsack, with straps placed there for that purpose. When the men are provided with blankets, they will be folded square and placed under the outer straps of the knapsack."

Was it done that way in practice, though? Most of the photos showing the 7th with their packs show the tops devoid of anything rolled, greatcoat or otherwise. One photo shows Joseph Dore with a roll atop his pack, but I can't quite tell if it's a blanket or a greatcoat -- it almost doesn't look bulky enough to be a greatcoat. Either way, it's interesting to note how the ends are tucked in, sort of like the "short roll" of later wars.

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cwpb/05300/05355v.jpg

[Guy Gane III]

(Not to get off topic, but notice how low the Sgt.'s haversack is :eek: ... also, Marc, is his canteen coverless?? :sarcastic )

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Pretty much all of the 1861 studio shots of the men in the 7th show their haversacks (supposed to be enameled leather, incidentally) at an unaltered length, which was to be 4-4.5 feet long—longer than your average Federal haversack—as well as uncovered canteens.

[bAcK88]

Bill,

From Revised U.S. Army Regulations of 1861, Article XIII, 96.
The knapsack of each man
will be placed on the lower shelf of his bunk, at its foot, packed
with his effects, and ready to be slung; the great-coat on the same
shelf, rolled and strapped; the coat, folded inside out, and placed
under the knapsack; the cap on the second or upper shelf; and the
boots well cleaned.

Quartermaster returns usually refer to knapsacks and overcoat straps.

Often in the spring or at the beginning of a campaign overcoats were packed in boxes, marked and stored. Troops, generally, would not have access to their overcoats during the summer months.

James Permane,
15th U.S. Infantry/4th Fla. Vol's


However Article LI, paragraph 1576 states: Knapsack--of painted canvas, according to pattern now issued by Quartermaster's Department; the great-coat, when carried, to be neatly folded, not rolled, and covered by the outer flap of the knapsack.

Anyway thanks for everyones help so far.
Bill

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

[QUOTE=FranklinGuardsNYSM]One photo shows Joseph Dore with a roll atop his pack, but I can't quite tell if it's a blanket or a greatcoat -- it almost doesn't look bulky enough to be a greatcoat.

When I rool up a blanket and strap it atop a pack, the end looks like a spiral.
When I fold and roll and strap on a greatcoat, it the center resembles a folded-in lump with the coat body wraped around it. THAT is just what this photo looks like.

[bAcK88]

Well as my luck will have it I found an image of a member of the 7th New York Militia with what looks like a greatcoat rolled up and I can't post it here. Anyway it can be found here: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/i?pp/ils:@field(NUMBER+@band(cph+3c26533)):displayType= 1:m856sd=cph:m856sf=3c26533

Also I found this image on from the Horse Soldier's website with what appears to be a rolled up greatcoat.

[Greg Renault]

I can't quite tell if it's a blanket or a greatcoat

If the greatcoat is rolled up into the envelope created when the ends of the cape are folded in, then it produces a roll exactly like the one in Marc's picture.

See the instructions at the 142nd PVI site:
http://www.142dpvi.org/kit_articles/rolling_overcoat.htm

[billyreb61]

I know that they are out they, but I haven't found any. What are some sites that give directions on how to properly fold your greatcoat to put on top of your knapsack?

Thanks

[Rob]

http://www.142dpvi.org/kit_articles/rolling_overcoat.htm

[billyreb61]

Thanks for your hellp Rob!

[Foggy Bottom Jim]

Or:

http://www.cwreenactors.com/~sykes/instruction/folding_greatcoat.php

[Dan Munson]

Ahhh, Jim Reynolds hit the point I was going to mention, namely, that technically there is no "proper" way to put the great coat on top of a knapsack, because the U.S. Army never intended it to be carried there! (Never mind that those two little straps are called "coat straps"...) The Sykes' Regulars web link that Jim provided gives you the dope on doing it the "Army" way (at least circa 1861). Not that all those volunteers didn't feel free to do things "their" way when they could get away with it. As to the rolling and folding techniques demonstarted on the links Jim and others have provided are, as far as know, "best guess" or "best practice" techniques. In 20-plus years in this hobby, I have not yet come across an authentic, period description of any "correct" way to pack a double-bag knapsack...other than the Regulations' prescription of where to put the great coat. If someone here does have such a period description, I'd sure like to get a reference. I sort of suspect there may have been some "custom" in this regard, but I can also easily imagine that "custom" varied from commander to commander.

Dan Munson
Co. K, 100th Penn'a V. I.

[weed]

Go to the research section of the 33d Wikscinsin web site.

http://www.33wis.com/articles/articles.htm


The way to fold a greatcoat are posted there, right from US Regulaions.

John Wedeward

[Pvt Schnapps]

That shows the method for rolling a cavalry greatcoat, and appears to result in a width more appropriate for a saddle than a knapsack:

[From Cooke's, off The Drill Network]


"Manner of rolling the Cloak.

"The cloak being entirely unfolded, the sleeves are laid flatand extended parallel to the two front edges of the cloak; each one is then turned up and folded near the elbow, so as to give a length of 3 feet 6 inches from one elbow to the other, the middle of the cloak remaining un*covered. The cape is then turned down over the sleeves, in such a manner that the front edges may exactly cover those of the cloak.

"The lower extremity of the cloak is turned up about 10 inches; the skirts are likewise turned towards each other, so that they may touch the fold of the sleeves, and that, being folded a second time upon themselves, they may give to the cloak the form of a rectangle; the lower extremity of the cloak is then turned up about 7 inches, and it is rolled as tightly as possible, commencing at the collar and pressing the knee upon it as it is rolled, to bold it. The part of the cloak which is rolled is then introduced into the sort of pocket formed by the part which was turned back."

For infantry, I've yet to see any instructions actually from the Regulations, though those from the Syke's site work well. Based on a number of sources, I believe that the straps actually attached to the top of the knapsack are not the "overcoat straps" referred to in period equipage lists. Here's one source, from Cornell's MOA site, from the Century Magazine in 1864.

"Fly Leaves from a Soldier's Diary" is an account of service in the 3-month First Regiment, District of Columbia Volunteers. In this passage the author describes the issuance of camp and garrison equipage:

"The next afternoon and evening, including in the latter elastic term many hours more properly claimed by the night, were spent in confused and bungling attempts to issue the clothing and camp and garrison equipage considerately provided for us by the Government. First everybody opened all the boxes at once, and grabbed for everything. Then everybody put his things back and petitioned for somebody else’s. ‘My overcoat is too big.’ ‘Mine is too short.’ ‘Golly! what sleeves!’ ‘What are these bags for?’ ‘Those things knapsacks! how you goin’ to fassen ‘em? no straps!’ ‘My canteen has no cork.’ . . . ‘Silence!’ roars the captain, and ‘SILENCE!’ rasps the orderly sergeant, three times as loudly and six as disagreeably. And then everybody being ordered to replace everything, that a proper system of distribution may be adopted, half of us hide our plunder away, and the other half dump their prizes promiscuously and in sullenness. ‘Here, here!’ barks Sergeant Files; ‘this kind of thing’s played out. There were sixty-five canteens; where’s the other sixty?’ Presently the confusion unravels a little, but, after a breathing spell, begins again worse than ever, when our melancholy friend, Smallweed, having signed the clothing receipt doubtfully; presently announces, with the air of an injured martyr, that he supposes it’s all right, but he can’t find all the things he signed for. Then everybody frantically examines into this new difficulty, and discovers that they signed for everything, and got nothing. Poor Captain Pipes scratches his head perplexedly, and smokes in anxious puffs. Sergeant Files hustles everybody about, exposes several shamefaced impostors, who have more than everything, and by the timely announcement that Smallweed’s deficiency consists of two over-coat straps, which are no longer used in the service, restores comparative quiet."

[neocelt]

Gents,

To reaffirm what has already been so astutely kenned by Pvt Schnapps, the instructions to which Mssr. Wedeward alluded are not from the Regulations; rather, they conform to the instructions given in every authorized cavalry manual from Scott's through Cooke's (and beyond, I suspect...). Weed reprinted them (with my permission) from the Civil War Cavalry Review--you're welcome...

Cheers,

[sigsaye]

Actually, I believe that both methods of carrying the Greatcoat/Blanket are mentioned in the 1861 (Revised) regulations. When this site first went up ('99/'00? Before the great crashes), there was a copy of them, and some Quartermaster/Commissary documents in the articles section that when read together made all of this completely clear.

In the original version of the regs (actually written a year or so before the war, and not effective until 1861), the blanket is folded in the knapsack and the coat goes on top. The rest of the bag is filled with whatever the Pre-War Army thought a Soldier needed to carry. The dog tent and gum blanket had not yet been adopted. This was fine and good for the times. The Army wasn't actually going any where, so when it moved, it moved at the pace of it's wagons.

War starts. Now, the Army must move, fast. The Army imediately realizes that it's logistics system is inadequate for the task. The LOG Train can not keep up with the Combat Army.

Details, the haversack will only hold three days marching rations and mess furniture. Been tried by folks on this forum. Cartridge box will only hold fourty rounds (.58 cal musket with tins). Not enough to sustain a Soldier in the field while waiting for supplies.

The Quartermaster Department issues orders that the new basic load of each Soldier is to be increased to five days rations and eighty rounds. This is almost imediately followed with a revision to eight days rations and 120 rounds of ammunition. (all of this is in theroy of course, we know that the Army was hard pressed to supply the original ammounts). Where is the Soldier going to carry all this extra?

The "Revision" to the regs then says that the Blanket is to be rolled and carried on top of the knapsack, and the coat (if carried) should be folded and placed between the folded sections of the bag. The bag was not emptied to make room for more socks, shirts, uniforms, books and what not, but for the stuff a Combat Soldier needed to stay in the field, food and ammo. Most Soldiers were already doing the "Lighten the Load" to what was needed any way.

The problem is that all of this info is tucked away in the little "nooks and crannies" of 19th century Army instructions, painful reading for me. But it's all there. It might even still be on this site somewhere. I haven't figured out how to make the spell check work yet, so I have no luck searching for stuff any more.

Steve Hesson

[Pvt Schnapps]

With no intention of disrespect Mr. Hesson, I think you may be thinking of the following research articles, which remain available on this site:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8551

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1095

These and some trips to the OR might firm up some of the details in your recollections.

[Seamus]

The followings quote was found in Regulars! A History of Gen. George Sykes' U.S. Regular Infantry Division of the Fifth Army Corps, 1861-1864, Revised Edition by Timothy J. Reese.

"There was always a rivalry among us as to who could pack his kit the neatest and show the fewest creases in the overcoat when rolled up and strapped on top of the knapsack. In this particular we never seemed to be able to equal the Permanent Party [at Governor’s Island, New York Harbor] whose overcoats were faultlessly rolled. The usual formula of a general inspection was carried through, as prescribed in the regulations, ending up with opening ranks, unslinging and opening knapsacks and displaying our kits. The General and his aides-de-camp, accompanied by the commanding officer and the adjutant, first inspected the band, then passed through the [musicians’] open ranks without any comments and on through the ranks of the Permanent Party, each of whom stood like a statue at the position of “order arms.”
An officer of the general’s staff, remarking on the immaculate rolling of many of the overcoats, tapped one of them with the scabbard of his sword. It emitted a hollow sound. He asked the soldier what it was, and the man explained that it was a dummy made out of a piece of stove pipe covered with blue cloth. The old general noticed the incident but merely smiled as did some of the other officers. However, it proved to be the end of the dummy overcoats on parade."

Augustus Meyers, Ten Years in the Ranks, The Sterling Press, 1914.

[sigsaye]

With no intention of disrespect Mr. Hesson, I think you may be thinking of the following research articles, which remain available on this site:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8551

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1095

These and some trips to the OR might firm up some of the details in your recollections.

None taken, and thank you. I don't do Army anymore, and generally stay out of these sorts of things, but it pops up so routinely. I'll lay below now and work on my "Homeward Bounders" now until I go on watch.

Steve Hesson

[Matt_E_Wright]

James,
Great quote, but don't you know you're not supposed to post those types of things until someone claims that rolling the overcoat on top of the knapsack is a reenactorism?

Anyway...here are two of my favorite pictures of overcoats on top of knapsacks:

1. EOG Federal (hard bound) pg. 41(Ignatz Gresser leaning on top of his knapsack w/ overcoat on top).

2. The "Tenting Tonight" Volume in the old Time Life Civil War series, pg. 18-19 (an entire company of the 22nd NYSM near Harper's Ferry, in column, w/ knapsacks, overcoats & enfield rifles w/ sabre bayonets.

Matt Wright

[Seamus]

Thanks, Matt.

Here's an image of a soldier of the 7th New York State Militia with an overcoat rolled up and strapped to the knapsack.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Great sources.

Regardless of what the Regs do or don't say, in the few times I've carried both greatcoat and blanket, I've tried it both ways -- blanket on top and greatcoat folded, and greatcoat rolled on top with the blanket in the bag.

Maybe it's because my greatcoat is bulkier than my blanket, but I've found it easier to march with the greatcoat rolled on top, held in place with the blanket :) straps.

I followed the instructions Rob cited, which apparently are adapted from a later guide for rolling the overcoat. It works pretty well and the end result looks a lot like that shown in the photos mentioned.[/url]

[RJSamp]

Camp Mason, Sept. 1st, 1862

Dear Brother (Nathaniel Melcher):
......
"We have received all our equipments, which make quite a load when all packed. 1 Knapsack with straps to lash the blanket on the top."........

H(olman). S. Melcher

(he was a Corporal at the time).

page 2 "With a Flash of His Sword" edited by William Styple, The Writings of Major Holman S Melcher, 20th Maine Volunteers.

[1stMaine]

RJ,

No one ever said that blankets were NOT carried on the tops of knapsacks. There is plenty of evidence to show that being done.

However, the straps are for the greatcoat. Do not underestimate the naivete' of a 20 year-old green recruit.

Heavens, folks might well argue that tin cups, plates, and even bayonets are simply entrenching tools in disguise :)

Respects,

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Really? What is shown in this image?

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

This topic has been explored, documented, and fought over several times concerning what was varied regulation, practice, and individual druthers, and possibly why as evidenced by Period manuals, accounts, and images.

Curt

[markj]

Really? What is shown in this image?


In the words of that great Civil War general from New Jersey, Tony Soprano, "Forget about it."

The photo is great, but it was also taken in 1866--a full year after the war ended--and, like other photos in this series, shows an individual equipped under ideal conditions.

Very truly yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[RJSamp]

In the words of that great Civil War general from New Jersey, Tony Soprano, "Forget about it."

The photo is great, but it was also taken in 1866--a full year after the war ended--and, like other photos in this series, shows an individual equipped under ideal conditions.

Very truly yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

In other words, exactly like the 20th Maine, nearly 1,000 strong looked like in September 1862 as they marched towards Antietam.

[RJSamp]

RJ,

1) No one ever said that blankets were NOT carried on the tops of knapsacks. There is plenty of evidence to show that being done.

2) However, the straps are for the greatcoat. Do not underestimate the naivete' of a 20 year-old green recruit.

3) Heavens, folks might well argue that tin cups, plates, and even bayonets are simply entrenching tools in disguise :)

Respects,

1. Exactly. And I never said anything either way. I simply posted a quote of a contemporary letter. Next Mark Jaeger will say that an 1866 picture of a soldier posed to document what they looked like during the war was under ideal conditions..... Oh, he already has.

2. Straps are straps...they may be there for a specific reason for them but 1001 uses in general practice. Holman Melcher ends up leading the charge on Little Round Top for the 20th Maine and is a Major by the end of the war....if he's a naive Corporal in 1862 he obviously learned very quickly......and nearly 1,000 Maine boys marched with blankets rolled up and lashed to the top of their knapsacks with straps, Enfields, etc. on their way to Antietam. I'm sure that straps were used at least ONCE to bind up a couple of splints for a broken bone.

3) yes they are. and a hat/cap is a convenient water bucket and carryall for eggs, berries, etc. Rifles are simply heavy tent poles, bayonets are candle holders, Harper's weekly is great toilet paper, etc. Again, many items have alternative uses.....and that they did....