In each rank, count...

[KentuckyReb]

Don't have my Hardee's in front of me...loaned it out a while back and haven't gotten it back yet. And when I had it, this never occurred to me. Might not be in there anyhow, but perhaps somebody can help. Wanting to get some of this stuff lined out before the season starts. Question--when a company forms, and the command 'right dress' is given and has been carried out, would it be correct for the NCO forming the company NOT to give the command to 'front' at that point, but instead to leave the men facing to their right, each man facing forward only when he sounds off? I ask because in my outfit, somehow, even though all our other drill always looks good, this is something where we always manage to screw it up. And being something that requires yelling, everyone nearby knows when you do it more than once for some reason. Sucks. Thought this might take care of the problem. I figured that this way, everybody's lookin' at the man to his right, so he d__n well KNOWS when it's time for him to sound off and has no excuse for lousin' it up. Either he wasn't at the proper 'right dress' position because he was beatin' his gums with his buddy, or he was just daydreaming, or whatever, but NCO can justifiably have a good ol' time dining on his posterior. I'd wondered that for some time, but never said anything, until if finally occurred to ask on here if such a thing would be acceptable practice when forming.

[LibertyHallVols]

Micah,

The manuals are available on-line at http://home.att.net/~Cap1MD/Drill.htm

According to Hardee's 1862 ( http://home.att.net/~MrsMajor/1862SotC.htm )...
"4. The company will always be formed in two ranks. The instructor will then cause the files to be numbered, and for this purpose will command:

In each rank-Count Twos.

5. At this command, the men count in each rank, from right to left, pronouncing in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry and without turning the head, one, two, according to the place which each one occupies."

The link for Gilham's was not working when I accessed the site.

I hope this helps,

[markmason]

Taken from Casey's School of the Company, 1862

May be found at

http://www.usregulars.com/library.htm

ARTICLE V.

Alignments, and Manual of Arms in Closed Ranks.

30. The ranks being closed, the instructor will cause to be executed parallel and oblique alignments by the right and left, forward and backward, observing to place always two or four files to serve as a basis of alignment. He will give the commands prescribed, No. 21.
31. In alignments in closed ranks, the captain will superintend the front rank, and the covering sergeant the rear rank. They will habituate themselves to judge the alignment by the lines of the eyes and shoulders, in casting a glance of the eye along the front and rear of the ranks.
32. The moment the captain perceives the greater number of the front rank aligned, be will command FRONT, and rectify afterward, if necessary, the alignment of the other men by the means prescribed in the S. S., No. 329. The. rear rank will conform to the alignment of the front rank, superintended by the covering sergeant.
33. The ranks being steady, the instructor will place himself on the flank to verify their alignment. He will also see that each rear-rank man covers accurately his file leader.
34. In oblique alignments, the instructor will observe what is prescribed No. 24.
35. In all alignments, the file closers will preserve the distance of two paces from the rear rank.
36. The alignments being ended, the instructor will cause to be executed the manual of arms.
37. The instructor, wishing to rest the men, without deranging the alignment, will first cause arms to be supported, or ordered, and then command:

[KentuckyReb]

Exactly what I had in mind. I was hoping it was in Hardee's so we could do it. I'm going to make sure our 1st Sgt. knows about it. Thanks guys.

[Clark Badgett]

"5. At this command, the men count in each rank, from right to left, pronouncing in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry and without turning the head, one, two, according to the place which each one occupies."


I may be just an illiterate bumpkin, but this paragraph seems to imply that you don't look to your right when counting off.

[KentuckyReb]

Ah, poop. I read 'without' as 'while' or something, I suppose.

[HOG.EYE.MAN]

Pronouncing in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry and without turning the head. This does not mean yelling and screaming your number for the whole field to hear either.

It's unnecessary to scream out your number in line, but I often hear units in the field who do. It cracks me up....

[markmason]

To clarify...Heads are turned to the left to align oneself upon the person to the their immediate left. When properly aligned, the command "FRONT" is then given.

[KentuckyReb]

Definitely gonna keep all this in mind. Especially 'say it don't spray it'. The intrepid men of Company K are, indeed, rather vocal when sounding off.

[Yellowhammer]

When counting off, I always yell "three" when it comes to be my turn. That always gets a laugh.

I also like to yell "comin' over" when firing from the rear rank and "Which one's Will" when the officer says "fire at will." Hilarity inevitably ensues.

Feel free to try them out boys. They are always a scream at reenactments.

(Author's note: All the above is a joke.)

Seriously, read the manual. Most of the answers are in there in convenient written form. ;^)

[Bent Rabbit]

When counting off, I always yell "three" when it comes to be my turn. That always gets a laugh.

I also like to yell "comin' over" when firing from the rear rank and "Which one's Will" when the officer says "fire at will." Hilarity inevitably ensues.

Feel free to try them out boys. They are always a scream at reenactments.

(Author's note: All the above is a joke.)

Seriously, read the manual. Most of the answers are in there in convenient written form. ;^)

And on a more serious note:
ALWAYS be sure to yell 'End of File' if you are the last one to count...
(Still scratching my head over the source of THAT one...)

[KentuckyReb]

And of course you wanna make sure and perform your right face 'without doubling'.

[va-yank]

I posted this the other day and it got lost in some sort of hiccup.

All the information about falling in and dressing is contained in Casey's, just not in one paragraph as in Gilham's. Casey structured his manual to contain all the building blocks of individual drill, company then battalion drill needed for the instructor to pass on.

INFANTRY TACTICS.

TITLE I.

ARTICLE I. FORMATION OF INFANTRY IN ORDER OF BATTLE.

15. The formation of a regiment is in two ranks; and each company will be formed into two ranks, in the following manner: the corporals will be posted in the front rank, and on the right and left of platoons, according to height; the tallest corporal and the tallest man will form the first file, the next two tallest men will form the second file, and so on to the last file, which will be composed of the shortest corporal and the shortest man.

TITLE III.
SCHOOL OF THE COMPANY.

General Rules and Division of the School of the
Company.

4. The company will always be formed in two ranks. The men will take their places in ranks as prescribed in No. 15 Title I., and without any preliminary formation. The instructor will then cause the files to be numbered, and for this purpose will command:

In each rank- Count Twos.

5. At this command, the men count in each rank, from right to left, pronouncing in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry and without turning the head, one, two, according to the place which each one occupies. He will also cause the company to be divided into platoons and sections, taking care that the first platoon is always composed of an even number of files.

(Ok, when we fall in, we do so in one rank, then form two from that. Here is how Casey describes doing this.)

FORMATION OF A COMPANY FROM TWO RANKS INTO
SINGLE RANK, AND RECIPROCALLY.

1. In two ranks, form company. 2. Company,

right-FACE. 3. MARCH.


374. At the second command the company will face to the right; the right guide and the man on the right will remain faced to the front.
375. At the command march, the men who have faced to the right, will step off, and form files in the following manner: the second man in the rank will place himself behind the first to form the first file; the third will place himself by the side of the first in the front rank; the fourth behind the third in the rear rank. All the others will, in like manner, place themselves, alternately, in. the front and rear rank, and will thus form files of two men, on the left of those already formed.
376. The formations above described will be habitually executed by the right of companies; but when the instructor shall wish to have them executed by the left, he will face the company about, and post the guides in the rear rank.

So its not outlined neatly "how to fall in and count off" but it is all there for the instructor.

All material copied from
http://www.usregulars.com/library.htm
The U.S. Regulars Archive.

[Silas]

[/QUOTE]So its not outlined neatly "how to fall in and count off" but it is all there for the instructor.[/QUOTE]

As I, too, noted before the recent hiccup, Gilham's contains the cleanest answer to the original question of falling in and counting two's:

216. THE whole company being assembled on its parade ground, or in the rendezvous, the first, or orderly sergeant, will command:
Fall in - COMPANY.
At this command the corporals and privates will form in one rank,
faced to the right, and in the order of height from right to left, the tallest man on the right (now head of the company), the next tallest man immediately covering the first, and so on to the left or rear of the rank, in which position will be placed the shortest man. The other sergeants will take post in the rank of file-closers, two paces the right of the company, and assist the first sergeant in forming the company. When the men have their places, the first sergeant will command:
FRONT.
The second sergeant, who is the left guide of the company, will now
place himself on the left of the company, and the orderly sergeant will promptly command:
1. In two ranks, form company.
2. Left - FACE.
3. MARCH.
At the command left face, the whole company will face to the left,
except the guide and man on the left, who stand fast.
At the command march, the whole of the men who have faced to left, will step off together; the second man, counting from the left, will place himself in the rear rank, behind the man next to the guide, and face to the front; the two following men will, in like manner, on closing up, form the next file, the third man in the front, and the fourth in the rear rank behind him, and all the other men will come successively to form files, two deep, to the right of those already formed.
The officers will now take their posts as prescribed in No. 8; if the
captain has to discharge the duties of instructor, the first lieutenant will take his place on the right of the front rank, the second lieutenant replacing the first behind the fourth section. The instructor will then cause the files to be
numbered, and for this purpose will command:
In each rank - count TWOS.
At this command the men count in each rank from right to left,
pronouncing in a loud and distinct voice, in the same tone, without hurry and
without turning the head, one, two, according to the place each one occupies. He will also cause the company to be divided into platoons and sections, taking care that the first platoon is always composed of an even number of files.

Wm Gillham, ARTICLE IV

The doubling issue has also been suggested, so I'll also post what the master had to say about it:

237. [ ]  The instructor will sometimes exercise the company in facing without doubling, for this purpose he will command:
1. Company, in two ranks, right - 2. FACE.
The double quick, however, will never be executed without the ranks being
doubled.

[Jim Peterson]

Guys;

They all say where the placement of the corporals should be when its finished and then explain how to form in two ranks and count.

Where does it state how/when the platoon break corporals are placed/moved? Most units I've seen move individuals around after the company is formed in two ranks and then they count. Then again, a lot of companies only have 2 corporals.

This would have been much harder with 80 soldiers and corporals in the line.

Jim Peterson

[79th N.Y.S.M.]

I would think not, because "Right Dress" and "Front" is the same command.
"Right Dress" means the company is doing something. "Front" calls the back to attention. (not that they were not before)

[markj]

Hi,

Here's an extract from a letter I posted elsewhere that may be of some interest to you. This was written by a company officer of the 19th Illinois in early 1862:

"Before leaving Company matters, I will mention some other little matters that may interest you. When the Companies are wanted to turn out on drill or parade the Assembly is played by the Band. Upon hearing this the Orderly Sergeant goes to the Company quarters and calls on the men to fall in. After waiting a sufficient length of time he calls the roll...those not present are marked as such, and are concidered good subjects for extra duty...he next causes them to right & count off in twos & whole numbers from right to left...divides them into Plattoons & sections. Placing corporals on the right & left of each, he then sends for me...as I approach the company he commands Present Arms...at the same time he raises his left hand as his right shoulder touching the musket held there, and informs me that the company is ready. I return the salute and then give the command, Shoulder Arms, cause them to right face & take them wherever they are wanted...."

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[sauguszouave]

Two things that drive me nuts in counting are, men who scream their numbers, and men who rush the count. There is no prize for being the loudest company or the fastest company. In drill, the prize goes to the most precise company.

“The Orderly, as soon as he has posted his Corporals and faced his sections and platoons, as above, will command:

In each rank, Count- TWOS.

At this order, the First Corporal and the man behind him will each count ‘One,’ the men of the next file will each count ‘Two,’ the next file ‘One,’ the next ‘Two,’ and so on, down the line.



Pronounce the numbers distinctly, as nearly as possible in the same tone with the rest, without turning the head, and in time; that is, the counting should be regular, like the falling of the feet in marching at quick time.

At first there may be mistakes made in counting, although there need be none, if all give strict attention. It should be understood that it is a [I]disgrace [emphasis in original] to a man to miss his number. To miss indicates carelessness or dullness. If a mistake is made, the Orderly will command, Cease Counting, and cause the count to be begun again.”

-- Taylor, N. W. Root, Infantry Tactics for Schools. New York and Chicago: A. S. Barnes & Company, 1862. pp. 58-59.

In other words, counting twos should sound just like a pair of drill instructors counting cadence for a quick march. If you don’t rush, everyone has time to think what their number is without having to glance to the right, and the front rank and rear rank man sound off at the same time. If you don’t shout, everyone can concentrate on their number instead of their volume, and the count sound uniform as it goes down the line. The result is military precision. To paraphrase the French, “Cadence, tojour cadence!”

Regards,

Paul Kenworthy

[dusty27]

I would think not, because "Right Dress" and "Front" is the same command.
"Right Dress" means the company is doing something. "Front" calls the back to attention. (not that they were not before)

Richard, what are you referring to here? The two commands are not "the same command". "Right Dress" aligns the company and during the that alignment, the men face slightly in the direction of the alignment, in this case right.

"Front" instructs them to face forward after dressing.

I don't understand your statements above....:confused:

[Greg Renault]

Jim,

"They all say where the placement of the corporals should be when its finished and then explain how to form in two ranks and count.

Where does it state how/when the platoon break corporals are placed/moved?Most units I've seen move individuals around after the company is formed in two ranks and then they count."

You're right. All the major manuals mention to divide the company into platoons after they've already told you to number the files. As you imply, inserting the corporals at the ends of the platoons would shift some men around, so the files would have to be renumbered. We've all experienced this.

The obvious sequence is for the company to fall in in one rank, then form in two ranks on the left per Gilham or Scott, insert the corporals, then number the files.

Cooper is the only one to explicitly provide us with this sequence:

Formation of the Company.

The company being assembled on its ground, the sergeants, by the command fall in, cause the rank and file (corporals and privates) to form in one rank, faced to the right, and in the order of height from right to left, the tallest man on the right, (now head of the rank), the next tallest immediately covering the first, and so on to the left, or rear of the rank.

The first sergeant then gives the words:

FRONT-FACE.-At the word FACE, the company faces to the front, and the second sergeant places himself on the left of the rank.

IN TWO RANKS, FORM COMPANY.

BY THE LEFT FLANK. LEFT-FACE.

At the word FACE, the company faces to the left, except the sergeant and the man on the left, who stand fast.

MARCH.-At the word MARCH, the men who have faced to the left, step off together; the second man counting from the left, places himself behind the man next to the sergeant, and faces to the front; the two following men, in like manner, on closing up, form the next file, and all the other men come successively to form files two deep, to the right of those already formed. The distance between the ranks is thirteen inches, measured from the breasts of the rear-rank men to the backs or knapsacks, (if they be on) of the front-rank men.

The captain now divides the company into two equal platoons, and each platoon into two equal sections. The platoon on the right is called the first platoon, and that on the left the second platoon. The sections are numbered from right to left, first, second, third fourth. The corporals (four in number) are then placed on the left and right of each platoon, in the front rank according to height, and the files are numbered from right to left.

A couple of speculations:

(1) In the major ACW manuals we are directed to "number the files" and to "form platoons/place corporals", but not necessarily in that order. The major manuals do not explicitly state that you are to "number files then form platoons". Common sense would dictate otherwise. Just as Hardee and Casey assume you know how to form a company in two ranks (but Scott, Cooper & Gilham tell you how to do so), maybe they assume officers will be bright enough to number the files in the company after they're done shifting the men about.

(2) This is more a reenactor concern than anything else. Remember, these military units routinely assembled in their formations several times a day, every day of the year. You know your place in the formation, and your file number. This is why Gilham says, in a footnote to his directions on forming the company:

(When the company is in good discipline, the files may be formed in two ranks at once, each man having his proper number in the company depending upon his height, and being able to take his appropriate place without creating confusion.)

Reenacting units are more like militia--you never know who will show up, so you have more of a need for an explicit method for forming the company. Note that two of the three manuals that explain how to size and form the company were intended for militia and volunteers. The regulars already know how do do it. And if they need instructions, there is Scott (whose manual was still in effect at the outset of the ACW).

Fred: The section you quote from Casey does not address the initial process of forming the company. Rather, it is concerned with changing the company formation from double to single rank, and back again. The same language can be found in the respective sections of the School of the Company in all major ACW manuals. Casey, like Hardee, just assumes you know how to form up. The very first lesson in Casey's School of the Company states:

4. The company will always be formed in two ranks. The men will take their places in ranks as prescribed in No. 15 Title I., and without any preliminary formation [my emphasis]. The instructor will then cause the files to be numbered....

So there's no way that the passage you quote could be addressing the topic of this thread.

By the way, I also HATE it when guys around me yell when counting off.