U. S. beltplate

[Beaner]

I have a U.S. beltplate I'm trying to authenticate. It has a markers mark on the back. The Maker is W Stokes Kirk, Phila Pa.. Any help would be appreciated.
Sam Billingsley
4th Tx. Co. E

[Chris Suppelsa]

I have a U.S. beltplate I'm trying to authenticate. It has a markers mark on the back. The Maker is W Stokes Kirk, Phila Pa.. Any help would be appreciated.
Sam Billingsley
4th Tx. Co. E

Puppy Paw or Arrow Back?

[Beaner]

Chris,
Here's a picture of the back.
Sam Billingsley
4th Tx. Co.E

[Charles Heath]

Sam,

If that piece ends up being one of the early reproduction plates from W. Stokes Kirk, then keep it anyway. Just don't sell it to some unsuspecting newbie for something it is not, should this turn out to be the case.

[Chris Suppelsa]

[QUOTE=Charles Heath;39378]
early reproduction plates from W. Stokes KirkQUOTE]

This is what I was leaning towards, but I'm not 100% sure

[Fenianboy]

W.Stokes Kirk was a surplus dealer In Philadelhia until the 1960's when a declining neighborhood and an assault on a store clerk caused the closing of their store.They kept a mail oder business for mostly repro stuff into the 70's. Bud Scully 13th NJ Co.K Mess

[Jimmayo]

I have never seen any hooks like that on an original.

[tomarch]

A little bit off the subject,but...Could early repro gear itself be collectable? I've got a M1855 double bag that I got used in 1987 and it about 15 yrs old when I got it (I think it was made by Roddamaker (sic)

[ScottCross]

W. Stokes Kirk was a surplus dealer in the 1950s. The brass plate itself may be original, but he fabricated the hooks and sold them for many years. They are bogus and not original, but may have some collecting value after 50 years.

[rogue]

Early repro stuff collectable? Probably so, if not now, in the near future.
When I was a member of the 104th Illinois (N-SSA) in the 1960's we bought US plates from W. Stokes Kirk for $2.00 each to use. They had the same odd hooks as shown at the head of this thread.
I have a well used Rademacher haversack that was carried by several Mudsills that could easily pass for an original. Very scarey!
Steve Sullivan
still older than Scott Cross

[Beaner]

Ok,
So the lead and hooks aren't original, but, more than likely the plate is. How can I verify this?
Sam Billingsley
4th Texas Co.E

[Charles Heath]

Sam,

Google to some of the belt plate sites, and you'll find discussions like this one:

Question: "I'm still trying to figure out what I'm missing regarding plates on eBay which I recognize (maybe incorrectly) as W. Stokes Kirk repros. Howard Crouch in "Repro Buckles of the Civil War" shows one of their dies on page 4 and says that the company manufactured both box plates and buckles (both large and small). He pictures one of their box plates as Fig. 20. The primary thing I see when I look at one of these plates is the very narrow gap between the top part of the "S" and the middle bend of the "S". MikeO said on Savage's site (March 6, '06) that he now thinks his Plate 477 is not period and is a Stokes Kirk. Anyway, on both of these auctions (the "dug" one we have discussed but I'm still bothered by it) I see that very narrow gap indicating Stokes Kirk repros. In my view the "dug" one and the undug one are identical plates. I understand that this letter style was never actually used during the Civil War. Help me out here."

Response: "The U is rounded at the bottom of this plate but on the Stokes Kirk it is flat across the bottom. I don't think they are the same maker."

I hope this helps.

[easttnfed]

Can you post a picture showing the front of the plate?

[Beaner]

Here's a picture of the plate.
Sam Billingsley
4th Texas Co. E

[easttnfed]

Thanks for posting the front view of the plate. I'll contact a collector I know and get the information from him for you.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

The face resembles Plate 477 in American Military Plates by O'Donnell. However, I tend to agree with the other posters. Hooks fake.

At first glance, the face looks good though.

John Walsh

[Jimmayo]

Compared to a repro.

[easttnfed]

Sam,

I contacted the collector that I am friends with and he said that the buckle overall was "bad bad bad". The firm listed was a post war military surplus firm and competed with Banermans. He also stated that he had one identical to the one that is pictured.

Hope this helps

[Bummer]

I have never seen an honest to god original that I was sure of with that die design, and I'd sure like to. I saw the first one of those repros in 1961, and also have a marked Stokes Kirk eagle breastplate (they're very good).

Having been at this stuff for decades I have accumulated a drawer full of original plates (and have had an example of all eight maker marked plates), and have still not seen an honest genuine one of that design (seen some for sale as genuine though). Yet, it is one of the only TWO reproduction designs that are worn by most all reenactors who don't wear an original (even though there were some two dozen different styles worn during the war). It is a pity that about 50% of Union reenactors wear a plate that never existed.

The plate design discussed and pictured here is 'somewhat' similiar to the die that can be found with BOTH Dingee and J I Pitmann marks (which 'may' suggest they were made by another maker and just sold to the accoutrement makers), but it is a definitely different design and should not be confused with them.

As to early reproduction stuff becoming collector items in themselves--absolutely. Who (who know of them) wouldn't pay to obtain an original Minnie Welch centennial reproduction? Or an early Paul Reuhs forage cap? These things may not be as absolutely perfect by today's standards (mighty close though), but could still be worn without shame to most any hardcore event today (if you'd want to do that). And were available back when everyone else was wearing Sears work clothing jazzed up with some ribbon or something equally odious.

Spence Waldron
Coffee Cooler

[Kevin Hall]

Spence your showing your age again. It does remind me though of all the original stuff that we used to take to the field with in the 116th PVI without thinking twice. Once upon a time that is; in a land far, far away.

Kevin Hall

[Bummer]

Yes, it's a bitch getting old. Those times you speak of was when CW stuff was only a step away from 'army surplus'; I shudder when I remember my old pard and I going down to the sutlers, buying a canteen, removing the cover and strap (which I still have) and tossing it in the fire in order to get a couple canteen halfs to use as plates. This was years before anyone had even thought of reproducing a canteen (the 1960's). Ah, those were the days...when a repairable and usable item of accoutrement was actually less expensive than a quality repro--if you could even find a quality repro.
With a few exceptions, times are better now for the authentic reenactor.

Spence Waldron~
Coffee Cooler