Overalls

[Silvana Siddali]

I've been looking at the Past Patterns overalls pattern, 901. http://pastpatterns.com/910.html


As you see the pattern is dated 1870-1901, but the additional information posted on the web site indicates that overalls were worn from the late 1830s onward. The trouble is that I've never seen any photos, illustrations, or originals of prewar overalls; can anyone point me to some research on this garment? A search here didn't turn up anything, but who knows what might have been lost in the recent crash.

I'd be grateful for any help you could give. Thanks.

[Hank Trent]

Don't know a lot about them, but one early image of bib front overalls is this genre painting by William Sidney Mount, "The Power of Music," 1847:

http://www.sawdustsymphony.com/update_db/contact/images/clip_image001_002.jpg

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Brian Baird]

There are good notes in the pattern.
Brian Baird

[lawson]

Wow, cool painting. It appears the gentlemen playing the fiddle is wearing a forge cap. Am I possibly mistaken? Love how the negro gents' coat is patched. Wow!

[Deborah Hyland]

Brian is correct; there are excellent notes and illustrations in the pattern. I own it & you're welcome to look at it.

[Hank Trent]

It appears the gentlemen playing the fiddle is wearing a forge cap.

Do you mean "forage" cap, or is that a blacksmithing name for it? Since this is the 1840s, I don't think it's a forage cap exactly, but I don't know what you call them specifically. They tend to show up in images of young men and boys. There's a little better view of one in this painting here, on the boy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/William_Sidney_Mount_001.jpg/747px-William_Sidney_Mount_001.jpg

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Silvana Siddali]

Thanks, Hank. Great image. I love Wm Sidney Mount's work -- always such a revelation!

Thanks Deborah, too, I'll take you up on it!

[Sherry Key]

Yes, I own it too, thanks in great part to seeing Mr. Larry in them at Franklin and how great and comfortable they looked.

It was extremely easy but there is one caveat...apparently I purchased an early version of the pattern (later versions were corrected) and there was one error on it. I should have know better but tend to follow the pattern thinking there is some reason I am not aware of. One of the two main pieces should be turned face down or you end up with two halves the same (did that make sense?) and this just doesn't work! Also, they are sized to be worn over regular clothing, not by themselves nor with just a shirt and drawers. Saundra Altman was a great help by answering my many questions by email.


Sherry Key.

[Utley]

There is at least one picture (I think more, but don't have the book right in front of me at the moment) of men wearing overalls in the book Silver and Gold: Cased Images of the Gold Rush. There is even one negro man wearing them with the bib "crossed" in front. Interesting pictures indeed.

Chris Utley
Carter and Jasper
www.carterandjasper.com

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
I would be fairly uncomfortable wearing the Past Patterns Overalls for an Antebellum or Civil War impression. The style of overalls worn during the war years differ signifigantly from this pattern, which is no secret as even Ms. Altman dates the pattern to 1870-1901.

The earlier style judging by photgraphs, drawings, genre paintings, and the like show overalls with a seam running across the waist and a pieced together bib...anywhere from 2 pieces on up. A few examples even seem to have a button fly incorporated into the construction of the piece. There also seems to be gussets in the back, kind of like US military trousers.

Another common mistake I've seen in the reproduction of overalls based on this pattern by a few "authentic" makers is the incorporation of pockets on the bib. While pockets were often seen down at the waist or hip, overalls with pockets on the actual bib isn't seen in images or catalogs until after the turn of the century in most cases.

Overalls were certainly around prior to the war and during the conflict, there's no doubt about it. However, I would refrain from using the 1970-1901pattern overalls in a CW era impression. I guess it's kind of like military sack coats, they were certainly worn during the war years, but would it be acceptable to wear a 5 button post war example for a 1862 impression? The answer would be no, as there was pattern differences.

When I get a chance I'll dig out some notes and examples to post, so you can see kinda what I'm getting at here with the pattern differences in bib front overalls.

Darrek Orwig

[Ian McWherter]

Greetings,
I would be fairly uncomfortable wearing the Past Patterns Overalls for an Antebellum or Civil War impression. The style of overalls worn during the war years differ signifigantly from this pattern, which is no secret as even Ms. Altman dates the pattern to 1870-1901.

The earlier style judging by photgraphs, drawings, genre paintings, and the like show overalls with a seam running across the waist and a pieced together bib...anywhere from 2 pieces on up. A few examples even seem to have a button fly incorporated into the construction of the piece. There also seems to be gussets in the back, kind of like US military trousers.

Another common mistake I've seen in the reproduction of overalls based on this pattern by a few "authentic" makers is the incorporation of pockets on the bib. While pockets were often seen down at the waist or hip, overalls with pockets on the actual bib isn't seen in images or catalogs until after the turn of the century in most cases.

Overalls were certainly around prior to the war and during the conflict, there's no doubt about it. However, I would refrain from using the 1970-1901pattern overalls in a CW era impression. I guess it's kind of like military sack coats, they were certainly worn during the war years, but would it be acceptable to wear a 5 button post war example for a 1862 impression? The answer would be no, as there was pattern differences.

In addition to the pieced bib, and sometimes fly, early overalls also have a outseam running down the leg, Ms. Altman's pattern has a one-piece leg. Her pattern can be easily modified to have this pieced bib and outseam, in fact, if you call her she'll explain exactly how to do this. I don't know why most vendors can't spend the extra 30 min. of work to modify their patterns to incorporate these elements instead of selling an 1870-1901 pattern and making excuses. The draft for Ms. Altman's pattern is actually from the 1890s but she stretches the fashionable circa to 1870, but that's as far as it will go unless you modify the pattern. Like Mr. Orwig said, she is perfectly plain about this, no mystery, unless you blindly believe everything "honest" suttlers sell you.

Ian McWherter

[Matthew.Rector]

I had once posted these somewhere in an overall related thread in the 2005-6 postings . I thought they might contribute to this thread.

[Silvana Siddali]

Thanks to all. This information is very helpful. It looks to me as though there's a side-buttoned entry, which is left open in one or two cases (esp in the image of the cotton gin.) Adding a seam at the waist and the outside of the leg should be very simple. I take it that all seams would be felled? Would the bib be bound or lined, do you think?

[lawson]

Mr. Trent,
I actually meant 'Forage cap'., but upon looking closer, it does look more like a ' Mechanics Style ' cap. Thanks for clearing up the date, I didn't know it was an earlier image.

Later,

[Citizen_Soldier]

Silvania,
I would recommend picking up the overalls pattern from Past Patterns and then making the neccessary modifications to make it an earlier pattern.
The pattern and the research material that comes with it should answer some of your questions on the garment's construction.

After looking at original images it appears to me that there generally is at least a facing on the top part of the bib in order to offer support for the buttons or buckles used in the straps, and then the rest of bib is either faced or roll hemmed depending on the example. When I get a chance I'll either post or PM you some good resources on period overalls.

Good luck,

Darrek Orwig

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
Hey, my last post was written in a hurry on my way out the door but here's some other details of ca.1856-1865 men's bib front overalls that you might find useful.

The straps are generally fairly narrow and can be either stitched or buttoned at the rear and at this time it seems that pre-1874 overalls usually have a button instead of a buckle to secure the straps in place on front of the chest. The most common material for overalls for this period is going to be denim (the white back blue denim doesn't become common until the early
20th century) and to a lesser extent waterproof material. Side openings generally have a single button closure at the top of the "slit" for the 1856-1865 time period, with later styles having a two button closure. The slits send to be reinforced to prevent tearing.

The garments for this time period can be without pockets but it seems that two patch pockets in the front below the waist level is very common as are two back patch pockets in addition. Pockets on the bib are not correct for this time period.

Overalls tend to be a mass produced item of clothing with the first commercial "do it at home" patterns for these garments coming out in the early 1870's.

The Past Patterns bib overalls pattern is a great pattern for post war impressions especially for open air museums with sites in the 1880's through the turn of the century. Many people are very thankful for the develoment of this pattern and it definately fills a hole in the living history interpretation community...just not the civil war era which is clearly stated along with the pattern.

I hope this helps, if you have any questions please feel free to contact me.

Darrek Orwig

[tmdreb]

I had once posted these somewhere in an overall related thread in the 2005-6 postings . I thought they might contribute to this thread.

That first image looks like very high-waisted trousers to me, unless they're some form of overalls that isn't bib front. It really looks like the top band goes all the way around the body at about the same level.

[Spinster]

Phil--I believe that's what they are--overalls without a bib front.

I'm currently messing around with a circa 1812 pattern drafting with the following features:

(1) No Bib
(2) High Waist
(3) Seamed legs
(4) With a narrowness in the knee and upper calf area that then is flared at the lower leg with a large pieced gusset. Think 1960's bell bottoms, only pieced.
(5) Pockets I can't describe yet.

In this earlier form, they really are 'cartoonish' looking to my eyes. And the garment just makes me think 'heavy lifting done here'.

[Hank Trent]

Here's a guess at a photo of the non-bib kind of overalls.

It's in American Album by Jensen, Kerr and Belsky, p. 68, but it may also be online. It's a photo of John Wesley Powell on his 1869 western expedition, standing beside a Paiute chief, Tau-gu. Photo taken by J.K. Hillers, US Geological Survey.

The chief is wearing a pair of ill-fitting, slightly-oversize, stiff-looking pants.

According to a report published in 1867, available on Making of America--Michigan, Condition of the Indian tribes.: Report of the joint special committee, appointed under joint resolution of March 3, 1865, the Paiute ("Pah-utes") Indians were given several hundred pairs of "overalls" in the 1860s.

I'm guessing that the pants the chief is wearing, are those overalls.

Edited to add: found the photo online http://historyforkids.utah.gov/fun_and_games/photos/images/picturestocolor/large/powell_photo_large.jpg

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Cottoncarder]

Know the Paiut were extreme west, but the chief looks like there was some Commanche/Apache influence as well. Note the shirt and the shape of his face which is part of the bone structure and has nothing to do with nurishment. His sharp features do not display general features of far west; namely round face. Terrain could be any where from Death Valley California to West Texas. Who was he exactly? One of the two, either his momma or daddy was not Paiut.

Hank, don't doubt your citation, but would put the period at the turn of the century. The textile on his shirt appears to be machine woven and looks very much early 1900s Apache.

[tmdreb]

Mrs. Lawson,

That sounds fascinating! Where did you get that pattern from?

[Spinster]

Scrabbled it out from some tattered old plunder in the hands of an aged long-trekker.

Let me mess with it some more, see what I can work out, and I'll draw you one out. I'm hoping to make it up for one of our indentured men.

As we look more down this path, we need to remember to look with 19th century eyes. Our modern eyes think overalls=bib.

I think what we are really looking for here are outsized rough trousers designed to be worn over other clothing to protect that clothing.

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
Bib front overalls are far from modern, there is ample documentation of them being worn during the 19th century and in the Antebellum period.

There's an awesome image out there of a pair of Overall trousers (without the bib) that are being worn by a '49er as he's working his claim. The pants can be easily seen rising from the top of the overalls and how the subject is positioned makes it a great historical image. I believe it's in Joann Severa's book, Dressed for the Photographer.

Darrek Orwig

[tmdreb]

Thanks! I'd really love to see that. I also do 1835-36 events on occasion, so the early patterns really interest me.

Darrek, I don't think Mrs. Lawson meant that bib overalls didn't exist in the 19th Century. I believe she meant that to most modern people, all overalls have a bib front, which wasn't the case in the 19th Century.

[Spinster]

Phil is correct in understanding my meaning.

[tmdreb]

Here's a bigger version of "The Power of Music". It seems like the overalls are cut like a pair of pants, but with a bib added where the waistband would be.http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/display_image.php?id=43126

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
In regards to my post concerning Mrs. Lawson's statements I was attempting to clarify one of the key points of the discussion, it really seems the thread has generated alot of interest and I wanted to make sure everyone involved had a clear understanding of the material being shared. All too often there seems to be a fair bit of confusion in men's citizen fashions among reenactors for the time period during the Rebellion.

"The Power of Music" is an incredible image and easily one of my favorite Mount paintings. The bib front overalls being worn are similar to other overalls of the period even though the sides are obscurred by the fellow's coat. These hidden details under the coat would probably include open slits along the outer side seams closed with a single button and an angled shape to the sides of the bib. One note on the garment from this image being discussed is that the low bib is somewhat less common in comparison to the higher bib front overalls seen in other genre paintings, photographs, and drawings from the period.

In I think my last post I mentioned a Gold Rush era photograph that showed a pair of mid 19th century overall trousers being worn. The image is dated 1852 and currently resides in the California State Library. The garment fits about like a pair of regular trousers of the period although obviously baggier, the waist is lower, there is no fly incorporated into the garment, no pockets, and suspender buttons are keeping the trousers up. From my research these seem to be a a fairly representive pair of overall trousers from the period.

If you have any questions please feel free to PM or email me. Over the years as a museum professional I have done a signifigant amount of research on men's clothing from the middle part of the 19th century and have begun work on a book regarding the subject.

Darrek Orwig

[Silvana Siddali]

Thanks, Darrek -- best of luck with that book. I know that will be a useful resource for all of us.

I have one last question about this image. Am I right in assuming that the pocket on his right hip is a slash pocket with a flap?

[tmdreb]

I see that pocket as well. It looks like it's right about the same angle and placement as on a pair of broadfall trousers (under the flap).

[Citizen_Soldier]

Greetings,
I've never really felt it was a flap but more likely the welt from a slash pocket or possibly even the top faced part of a patch pocket. I've seen similar pocket arrangements on fly front trousers from the middle part of the 19th century.

I'm away from my notes currently, but I don't remember seeing any material in regards to flapped pockets on overalls. I'll take a look and get back to you on it.

Darrek Orwig

[tmdreb]

I'd agree it's more of a welt than a flap. Also, the suspenders holding up the bib are of a different fabric than the rest of the garment. That doesn't seem to show up in CW era images.

[Busterbuttonboy]

Although this thread has been inactive for awhile i thought i would post my findings here. Aside from the discussion itself and our conception about Bibs, i recently found this pattern i thought i would post. Pockets seem to be low enough for my tastes.
http://www.harriets.com/victmens.htm
Drew Gruber

[Ian McWherter]

The pattern appears though to have the same one-piece bib construction as the Past Pattern's pattern (at least from the illustration), which is decidedly late 19th century. I would still recommend purchasing the Past Pattern's pattern and asking Saundra Altman wear and how to make all the various modifications to make these appropriate for a mid-19th century impression.

Some of the other patterns on this site give me the hibbie gibbies, a frock/morning coat pattern fashionable for a 30 year timespan! Wow, I wish that was born out with the originals in my collection.:wink_smil At least Saundra Altman gives it to you straight and backs her patterns up with solid research. Just my opinion.

[Drygoods]

Ian, can you simply explain what Saundra told you over the telephone? I think it would be annoying to her if we all phoned asking the same questions. I read the other posts, but would still appreciate more detail in the description of how to defarb the pattern. Maybe others need the help too.:p

[Cassandra]

Would the bib's be made out of a heavy cotton, or wool?

[jgr1974]

I am intersted in the Harriet pattern as well. I purchased the Past pattern's one and have wore tham as well. They are comfortable. I am curious how the overall's differ??? I think the overalls beeing work clothes should be made of a heavy tight weave fabric. I do not have the ad in front of me, but overalls over shirts and sack coats were made from tight weave denim. These were referred as Hickory cloth, this is where the word "hick" came from.

The Mad MIck!

[tmdreb]

Since they are worn over the trousers and not instead of them, you may not want to use such a heavy material. A somewhat lightweight drill would probably work well.

[Ian McWherter]

Ian, can you simply explain what Saundra told you over the telephone? I think it would be annoying to her if we all phoned asking the same questions. I read the other posts, but would still appreciate more detail in the description of how to defarb the pattern. Maybe others need the help too.:p

The following tips were posted earlier in this thread, in case you don't want to bother Saundra:



Originally Posted by Citizen_Soldier
Greetings,
I would be fairly uncomfortable wearing the Past Patterns Overalls for an Antebellum or Civil War impression. The style of overalls worn during the war years differ signifigantly from this pattern, which is no secret as even Ms. Altman dates the pattern to 1870-1901.

The earlier style judging by photgraphs, drawings, genre paintings, and the like show overalls with a seam running across the waist and a pieced together bib...anywhere from 2 pieces on up. A few examples even seem to have a button fly incorporated into the construction of the piece. There also seems to be gussets in the back, kind of like US military trousers.

Another common mistake I've seen in the reproduction of overalls based on this pattern by a few "authentic" makers is the incorporation of pockets on the bib. While pockets were often seen down at the waist or hip, overalls with pockets on the actual bib isn't seen in images or catalogs until after the turn of the century in most cases.

Overalls were certainly around prior to the war and during the conflict, there's no doubt about it. However, I would refrain from using the 1970-1901pattern overalls in a CW era impression. I guess it's kind of like military sack coats, they were certainly worn during the war years, but would it be acceptable to wear a 5 button post war example for a 1862 impression? The answer would be no, as there was pattern differences.

Originally Posted by Ian McWherter
In addition to the pieced bib, and sometimes fly, early overalls also have a outseam running down the leg, Mrs. Altman's pattern has a one-piece leg. Her pattern can be easily modified to have this pieced bib and outseam, in fact, if you call her she'll explain exactly how to do this. I don't know why most vendors can't spend the extra 30 min. of work to modify their patterns to incorporate these elements instead of selling an 1870-1901 pattern and making excuses. The draft for Ms. Altman's pattern is actually from the 1890s but she stretches the fashionable circa to 1870, but that's as far as it will go unless you modify the pattern. Like Mr. Orwig said, she is perfectly plain about this, no mystery, unless you blindly believe everything "honest" suttlers sell you.

I have viewed several un-published dags. recently from private collections dating to before the Civil War showing overalls in detail that further corroborate these details.

[Ian McWherter]

Here is an image I saved from a recent Ebay auction, showing two tinsmith's at work. You can't see any details of the construction, but you can see the appropriate fit of the overalls:

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/Ian_McWherter/97979388_o.jpg

[SparksBird]

I have read this thread for some time and do have some questions. Based on the nature of the postings, the overall consensus was reached that Mrs. Altman's pattern needed to be reworked in order for her overalls to be appropriate for the 1860s. However, when going back and really reading through the postings, I am yet to see any conclusive evidence of her current pattern not being period correct. I know that the time period that she advertises is later than the 1860s and I am not questioning that. However, I haven't really seen any hard evidence, or an original garment to study, that would prove these theories. So far, one photo of the miner and several drawings/paintings have been provided but that is it. I am curious as to what concrete sources, besides personal speculation, have really merited any repro bibs out there to be non-authentic. So far, the one painting could possibly have a seem running along the bib. Therefore, all repro bibs must follow suit?? I guess what I am saying is please provide me with the documentation to help answer this question.


Rick Musselman
President, MOMCC
F. & A.M. Palestine #158

[Ian McWherter]

I guess what I am saying is please provide me with the documentation to help answer this question.

Rick Musselman
President, MOMCC
F. & A.M. Palestine #158

This is where I differ (respectfully). When I have a question regarding the authenticity of an item I don't expect others to provide me with all the evidence. I go out, hit the books, examine original garments, look at original photographs in private collections that haven't been published, etc., etc., etc., myself. I would love to share the images of overalls I've seen, but I do not have the owners permission.

This thread should give you a good jumping off point for your own research project, but to expect the other contributers in this thread to provide the burden of evidence from the sweat of their own brow is silly. This is not what forums are for.

Why not talk to the person who created this pattern in the first place? When I ordered the Past Patterns overall pattern from Saundra the first thing she asked me was, "what impression are you going to be using this for?" I told her an Antebellum impression, after which she informed me that the pattern would need to be altered and she offered to send me directions on how to do it. So the creator of the pattern will tell you it's not correct unless altered for earlier impressions, and she did her homework. I would like to see someone post information proving that one-piece bib overalls, just like Saundra Altman's 1890s overalls, are correct for a Civil War or Antebellum impression, my research indicates otherwise.

But as I've said you should research this question yourself, you might find exactly what you're looking for or something completely different. Then when you're done you can share your findings with us here, if you should feel like it.:)

[SparksBird]

Ian,
I don't think you understood the purpose of my posting. I have been on these forums long enough to know the difference between research and "my opinion" or "it seems" comments. I am not trying to pick, but we can't simply make our own assumptions and lead others to believe that they are solid research. I am simply saying that there is a lot of speculation in this thread and I was not seeing the facts to back it up. However, Saundra sent me the following email that reassures me of the historical documentation. I have known Saundra Altman for some time and she is one of the best clothing researchers out there today. She sent me the following email and asked that it be posted on here:

Hello Good People,

Bill Christen and Rick Musselman have e-mailed a summary of the discussions on the Authentic Campaigner regarding apron-front overalls worn during the 1860s, in particular what the Union Army would have issued. They have encouraged me to respond.

In general early apron-front overalls were trousers to which an apron-front was attached and straps attached to the apron-front. But, please keep in mind, that there are daguerreotypes and paintings showing no waistband. Some had flys and some did not.

It makes me happy that you are showing an interest in overalls and I will make you happy by telling you that in late summer, this year, I will market an earlier pair of apron-front overalls pattern that are drafted from originals in a private collection. The owners's initials are inked in a corner. They might be as early as 1850. The same collection yielded an overalls pattern dated, if I remember correctly, to 1855 with the person they fit written in pencil on the brown paper. The collection also contained and two pairs of denim overalls being reworked.

The early pair are probably the only pair in existence and I am extremely lucky to have found them and be given permission to make a pattern from them.

I make more women's patterns than men's because ball gowns pay the bills. If more men sewed their own clothing we could sell more men's patterns and I would be encouraged to make more. The earlier overalls would be a good start to sew by hand because they are easy to make and the stitches are large, I propose: because they are work garments and would wear out quickly.

To the Guys: If you can build anything using a ruler and right angles you already understand how important a straight and true line is, so you are ready to sew by hand or machine. Straight and even stitches are a key to building a garment that will hang correctly when worn and endure wearing and washing.

My best,
S.
dba PP



Rick Musselman