Bit Makers

[AZFarrier]

I was wondering if any one knows who makes authentic bits. I know Doug Kid does but is there any one else? I have a 59 Bit with a low port. I need to get it modified to a high port. My horse won't respond well to the bit and I'm forced to use my roping high port Correction bit on him ( non authentic). I'll send it to Doug but I would like to compare shop first. I beleave you all understand.

Thank you

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[VaTrooper]

Andy,
I dont know of anyone else making a reasonably close bit but original high port bits are fairly common on ebay.

[AZFarrier]

I know but the origionals are narrower then the repros, 150 years of evolution of horse breeds, beleve me I've explored that already.
Thanks for your reply

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[Ted Barber]

i got my tack from Dave Carrico. I do not have his info now, but that is who.
Ted Barber
"Looking for a Ky unit that may let me borrow a mount as mine died last year and now I live in Ky, not michigan"

[AZFarrier]

Dave Carrico huh! I'll start searching around to find out if he's still in business.

Sorry to hear about your horse, if you lived a little closer to me I'd sell you mine for $5.00 with change back.:wink_smil
Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[VaTrooper]

Ted,
Carrico's goods are not historically accurate. Unless he does higher quality stuff as a custom type order (which I dont think he does).

[AZFarrier]

OK let me expand this out. All I need is to have some one correct the port of my bit. The bit is accurate, all I need is a higher port.

Thanks

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[VaTrooper]

Doug can alter it for you.

[AZFarrier]

Thanks. I already shot him an e-mail. Thanks for all your input

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[J.H.Berger]

Find a blacksmith, he shoudl be able to cut the port out and weld a higher in. Not authentic but it should work. Weaver used to have high port bits but they have discontinued them. Besides that they were just bent round stock and not the drop forged version like the originals.

[T.Kern]

OK let me expand this out. All I need is to have some one correct the port of my bit. The bit is accurate, all I need is a higher port.

Thanks

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

OK I'll bite, why does your horse need a larger tongue relief? Severity of the bit is not in the port, as there a relatively few nerve endings there, but in the length of the cheek in relation to the position of the curb chain that forms the fulcrum.
Often it is not a higher port one needs but a different length bit or better training to lighten the horse. The manual goes into fitting bits to horses mouths extensively. The tongue , the channel, and so on. The manual would be a good place to start for many people when it comes to fitting.
I should say Poinsettes manual, as too many people still know of cookes, a manual which should be thrown on the trash heap of historical novelty items as it serves little if any purpose in historical interpretation and should just be forgotten.
Todd Kern

[AZFarrier]

First off, I got a reply back from Doug, he will take the bit in trade. Second. I've had this horse for about a year and tried several bits on him. I normally use a high port correction bit on him for Team Roping. He responds well to the bit, now I used my 59 cav bit for roping and was not able to achieve the same results. Recently I attended the 1st Annual Las Vegas Farb Fest (not much out here so I'm forced to take my mounts to Farb Fests for training). I used both bits and found that I had more control and less fight with him using my roping bit. Of course I have more work on him, but he's progressing.

Thanks

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[VaTrooper]

Unless he has changed it the bit Doug was reproducing was a 63' pattern. But still its the best option I know outside of an original.

[Haggis]

Hi Andy,
If I may, let me add to Todd's excellent suggestions. Unfortunately, for most folks, the bit is just a hand brake, the harder the horse is to control, the bigger the brake needed. But bits are best used as communications devices, not mechanical pain inducers. IMHO, going back to the snaffle, gettin soft lateral flexion and then working on rating/stopping your horse with your seat is a better solution. Then when you have that, a proper fitted military curb bit will allow more subtle communications. I'll bet you find you don't need the correction bit, he'll be easy in your hands and quicker to respond to your feel.
This is an investment of your time, there are no shortcuts to doing it right, IMHO again.

For the historical perspective: from Nolan's System For Training Cavalry Horses -1962:
"The jaw-bone of every horse is covered in the same way; whether a horse be light or heavy in hand, cannot, therefore, depend upon the quantity of flesh between the bit and the jaw-bone, though many suppose this to be the case; but the fact is, it is not the horse's mouth that is bard, but the rider's hand that is in fault.

Many and various are the bits in use, originating chiefly with the trade, and partly the inventions those who, unable to control their horses, sought assistance in bits of different sorts. For instance, when a horse carries his nose up, a bit with long cheeks was recommended, which, by adding to the power of the lever, should assist the hand to pull in the horse's nose by sheer strength. In this case, if the horse has never been taught to yield to the pressure, of the bit and to bring his head in, he will set his jaw against the bit to alleviate the pain he suffers, and thus adopts a way of his own, which he will ever after recur to in similar circumstances.

Other bits again are such instruments of torture, that they either deaden all sensation in the horse's month, which becomes numbed, from the excessive pressure stopping the circulation of the blood, or they drive a horse frantic with pain, and no power the rider can exert with his legs, can bring the animal to face such a bit; the horse, therefore, remains behind the hand, and hand and leg cannot work together.

A light bit is therefore strongly recommended, and in the following lessons, it will be explained how to use it and obtain obedience. In the United States service, the snaffle in connection with the bit, was a few years since discarded from the bridle, and though after the horse is trained the snaffle may be dispensed with, in the following lessons its use will greatly facilitate bringing the horse on, and is believed to be almost essential.


Just my thoughts on the horses behalf.
Alan McFadden
5th Texas Mounted Volunteers

[Coley Adair]

Todd,
"I should say Poinsettes manual, as too many people still know of cookes, a manual which should be thrown on the trash heap of historical novelty items as it serves little if any purpose in historical interpretation and should just be forgotten."
Care to elaborate on that statement?

[Andrew German]

I would agree with Todd on Cooke's manual, which, unfortunately, is the one that has been widely reproduced. His single-rank tactics were accepted by the War Department at the end of October 1861, by which time so many volunteer units, not to mention the regulars, were training in Poinsett's double-rank tactics that very few federal units used Cooke's until Wilson applied it in the western theatre late in the war. In the east, the 1st Maine and a couple of the Michigan regiments trained to it, but they had to pretend to operate in two ranks when cavalry commanders were around. Early in 1864, Pleasonton specifically prohibited single-rank tactics in the AoP.

That being said, I think that some of the preliminary material may be worth considering as it represents an 1860 perspective rather than an 1840 view. But, as I believe Todd was indicating, the single-rank tactics were so rare in the war that they should not be represented in reenacting except in very specific cases. Get a copy of the repro edition of Patten's Cavalry Drill and Sabre Exercise, the condensed version of Poinsett's.

Andrew German

[AZFarrier]

This horse was broken to a harsh bit from the beginning. When I bought him the former owner had a hackimore with a gag bit. The chin strap was so tight that it would draw blood when it was ued, and he roped off this horse 6 out of 7 days for four years. I now have worked with him enough that he can respond to a correction bit with the slightest pressure. I have started him off on the cav bit but again all I get is a fight when asking him to do any thing. In the past couple of days though we have gained a little progress in cues and hopefully soon he'll not have a problem with the bit. all I need is a bit to transition to ( have another low port bit).

On a side note I do use a running martingale on him with some success but the real problem is exposure, I try to go to every reenactment I can with this one unfortunitly there isn't many in AZ, especially where cav in concerned. And to top all that off I'm still correcting some other bad habbits that he got from his prior owner. Believe me I'm about 2 seconds away from selling him but dang my wife for calming me down when I really get hot.:baring_te

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[dixiecowboy25550]

As a someone who has ridden reining horse for around 7 years competitively, and worked for a reining trainer; I would suggest doing face work with the horse rather than going to a more severe bit. Judging by your photograph (I'm assuming its this horse) the animal is high and needs more control in the bridal. This is the source of your problem Using a more severe bit is not going to get any response with the animal. Instead, try to reexamine your methods, tying the horse's face back and driving it up into the bridal would help soften the animal immensely (try a snaffle bit here). Basically its not the bit that’s wrong: its the handling of the situation as a whole. If the animal was mistreated and mistrained as a 2/3 yr old you may be better off to go back to basic stuff like line driving, snaffle bit riding, etc. to help the animal become more responsive. More than likely, this higher port bit that you are looking for is going to scare the animal more (in terms of softening) and probably is going to make the situation worse. To help yourself out, when your riding at home and have the ability, work the horses face constantly (that is, get it to give into the bit, and lower its head) and try to stay calm with it. I think most of the time we will find that our horses respond less to us if we get aggravated. More than likely if you stay calm in fixing these problems with the horse, it will learn to yield its power.

In doing these things, your horse will become more broke, a better competitor, and will eliminate the need for the new bit.

Andrew Marcum

[Haggis]

Hi Andy,
Yes, you have some bad training to undo, however in my experience you can't work the problem backwards. If you decide to keep the horse, I'd recommend you go back to the beginning and put in the correct foundation that was probably never put there. That means lateral flexing and getting the hindquarters to disengage, then work on the back up, stop and gait changes. If you're interested in more information, find Ray Hunt or Bill Dorrance's stuff or PM me. Also, I'd be happy visit with you about events with cav near you.

Respectfully,
Alan McFadden

[AZFarrier]

We'll I guess I taking this from a Ropers stand point. Yes this is the horse that I'm refering to. When I took that picture I had him for about a month and shot off his back about 10 minutes before, naturally he was hyper. I've been going back to the basics and again come along way. The biggest hurtle is plastic bags, He was never sacked out as a foal and now he's 10-11 and is pretty much set in his ways. He does have a good temperment and is a smooth ride. He handeled pretty well in Las Vagus, but wanted to explode. I was sure that the Cav Commander wouldn't let me ride but turns out that he was one of the better mounts out there. Finally I would drop this horse like a bad habbit but he's an aswome roping horse.

Allen I will PM you tomorrow, I have to play sailor in the morning (US Naval Reserves) and have to get to bed.

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers