Battlefield Pickups

[orngblsm]

Gentlmen,

Many times while discussing uniforms and equipment with fellow pards, I have heard the excuse "A soldier would(or could) have picked one of these up on the battlefield," as an answer to traps not originally issued to that specific regiment. Now I am surely not denying the fact that soldiers were in contact with different bits of clothing and accoutraments, but I question the correctness of a soldier acctually picking up something while in the heat of battle. I draw my conclusion from this:

First...I have never read an actual account of a soldier claiming to get a new canteen, jacket, etc. from a dead or dying soldier, nor have i ever heard of a soldier picking up a tossed uniform piece or accoutrament while persuing or retreating from an enemy. I have a hard time believing that most soldiers would have actually gone and torn a haversack, etc. from a dead body. I know that if i was there i would have wanted nothing to do with anything dead. I also question this because how often were soldiers actually exposed to the battlefield in which they just fought on.

Now muskets are the exception. There is no doubt that muskets were battlefield pickups. A musket is something in which you life depends on. They are also very easily obtained, in that you don't have to tear it off someone's body.

I feel that it is more credible to claim that a soldier would have traded articles, or bought new ones. But to claim that soldiers were randomly picking up pieces of clothing and acoutraments from a battlefield is a bit off from the truth. Now I'm not denying that it did take place, but i believe that it was rare. Just looking for some feedback on whether anyone agrees or disagrees(most likely) with my opinion.

Just my humble opinion,

[flattop32355]

I believe there were some cases where attacks were made that carried through into Union camps, and the Confederates tended to stop and grab things, breaking up their organization and stalling the attack.

There is also a story in which a federal would collect canteens, distribute them to his pards in exchange for a drink whenever he needed, and so was able to not carry one of his own, lightening his load. My suspicion is that he would have collected them from the field after battle.

How often such occurred may be open to debate, but it did happen.

[delawaric]

I would have to disagree. I have read a number of accounts to this happening. Im not at home so I dont have anything in front of me to quote properly .However I know alot of POW and dead photos show captured gear on confederates. This photo shows a captured canteen and cartridge box.
Eric 'Woody" Woodward

[Clark Badgett]

I do know that I have at least one reference that a western CS soldier from Kentucky took a "fine black sombrero" from a federal soldier "who no longer needed it." Also have references to soldiers trading foulded or busted muskets for a cleaner model on the battlefield. Also think the CS QM forces in the east would clean the useful items that could be reissued from the VA battlefields. CS soldiers also were know to take shoes from dead yanks. Trust me here, soldiers will take what they otherwise can't obtain.

[James Brenner]

This is from a letter Captain David Bard of the 104th OVI wrote on 16 August 1864 describing the aftermath of action at Utoy Creek, outside Atlanta..."One of the 100th Ohio men of our Brig. was shot through both thighs and lay within 20 ft. of the enemies lines. He says that after dark a rebel came out and prayed with him, went back to bring a physician, and while gone, another came out and stole his hat. He begged him to leave the old one he had to keep the flies off with. The Reb did so but had hardly gone when another Reb came and stole the old one. Before our men found him every article of clothing had been stolen. All of the dead and many of the wounded were thus robbed. Our men swear bitter vengeance on them for this cruelty."

[Curt-Heinrich Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Putting aside the nastier side of bullet and shell impacts with bleeding, tissue, and sometimes loss of bowel and bladder....

I do not have the book handy, but I recall the Texas Brigade reference where, I believe, it was a "Red Harris" had recieved a pair of trousers that were way, way too short.
He was able to "liberate" a pair of leggings from a dead federal which bridged the gap quite nicely.

Than again, when it comes to reminisences, it could have been just a soldier's embellishment...

But yes, wasn't it a duty of the Quartermaster and Ordnance folks to comb the battlefields for reuseable items- particularly shoes and weapons....

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Dignann]

FYI. The following two accounts pertain to securing discarded shelter from the enemy by members of the Stonewall Brigade.

Following the Battle of Chancellorsville, in a letter dated May 8, 1863, Capt. Jacob Golladay, Jr. of the 33rd Virginia Infantry wrote:

"We captured an immence [sic] quantity of gun shrouds which we use in place of tents. They are a very good substitute by splicing them together."

In his memoir of the Battles of Wilderness and Spotsylvania Court House, Lieut. Thomas S. Doyle of the 33rd Virginia Infantry wrote:

"At sunrise on the 7th [of May] skirmishers were sent forward and the enemy's works found vacant. The ground was strewn with plunder of all kinds in great abundance, & such of the Confederates as needed them supplied themselves with tent-flies, oil-cloths, blankets, canteens, guns, &c."

Writing of the evening of May 11-12, 1864, prior to the morning attack on the Mule Shoe at Spotsylvania Court House, Doyle remembered:

"About 12 P.M. it commenced to rain and continued all night making the trenches a most uncomfortable place, but thanks to the excellent tent-flies so abundantly supplied by the 6th Federal Corps in the Wilderness, the men were able to keep tolerably dry."

The provenance of the Golladay letter is uncertain, as I only have typescript, but it has been posted on-line somewhere. The Doyle memoir is at the Library of Congress.

Eric

[KathyBradford]

Hi, Ryan,

My husband's great-great uncles served with the 21st OVI, Company A. December 31, 1862, Absolom and Tilden Kleckner were fighting at Stones River, Tennessee. At 9 A.M., Absolom was shot over the left eye and instantly killed. His younger brother, 17 at the time, saw from behind what had happened. The Confederates were advancing toward them. Having heard the stories of what had happened during Absolom's previous stint as a prisoner of war in an Alabama prison, Tilden asked a pard closer to Absolom to retrieve his wallet from Absolom's pocket. They left Absolom's fully clothed body in the cold where he fell. After the battle, Tilden and his brother-in-law John Leonard, returned to his brother's body. Missing were his "striped shirt from home," jacket, trousers, socks that his new bride Elizabeth had knit for him, and his shoes. No mention was made of leather gear or weapon.

taken from 37 letters written between Elizabeth (Leonard) Kleckner, Absolom Kleckner, Tilden Kleckner, and John Leonard (Brother-in-Law to Absolom and brother to Elizabeth, also serving in the 21st)

[markj]

Hi,

With all due respect, you are proceeding from the assumption that men behave "rationally" in combat. The answer to that is, "It depends on the man." There was official policy and then there was...reality. In a war that saw hungry troops wander off and pick blackberries in the midst of battles, anything was possible.

Shiloh, Stones River, Chickamauga, &c., &c. All, to my knowledge, saw cases of looting and "recycling" during the engagement. There was plenty of opportunity, means, and motive. Grabbing a canteen was ridiculously easy and only took a few seconds. I recently transcribed a letter written by a man in the 72nd Indiana who took part in the action at Castalian Springs TN in December 1862. He stumbled across a very dead, but still warm, Confederate and grabbed the man's full canteen because his was empty.

Federal troops ordered to drop knapsacks were frequently loath to do so and with good reason: Even if they won the battle, they sometimes returned only to find their gear had been looted by either Confederates who had overrun their "drop zone" at one point or, sorry to say, by their OWN people!

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Rhinevalleylad]

G´day,

well for "documented" battlefield-pickups look e.g. in

Frank M. Mixson of Jenkin’s brigade of Longstreet’s corps wrote in his diary:

“The enemy fell back as we advanced. We had not gone more than a couple of hundred yards before we ran over some dead Yankees. Here was my opportunity, and I embraced it. The first one I got to I stopped, pulled off his pants, shoes and stockings, got right into them, there and then. The shoes were new and fit perfectly; the stockings were good wool and came up to my knees, and the pants were all right, except a little too long, but I rolled them up about as they are worn these days and they too were a fit. I felt grand.”

So it is authentic to wear union-accoutrement or uniformparts - if - well if
it is the "real stuff" not the still no problem to get union cr*p with wrong fabric, colour or cut or ....

Greetings from germany


Rhinevalleylad
5th Va Vol Inf Rgt.
www.hdgm.de (http://www.hdgm.de)

Ingo, you need to sign all of your posts with your full given name - Mike Chapman

[LibertyHallVols]

Hey, Eric Mink!

I seem to recall a quote from Ted Barclay, 4th Virginia from one of the histories of Company I. He makes a reference to picking up a "Belgian musket". He seemed very pleased with it, refering to it as "a veritable cannon".

I cannot recall the specific reference to the quote and don't have easy access to the info right now. However, the quote seems to apply to the thread. Are you familiar with this quote & might you know the bibliographic reference??

Thanks,

[Alamo Guard]

There is the story of the man with the 5th Texas Infantry during the Seven Days Battle, stopping to pull a pair of shoes off a federal leaning against a tree. As he is unlacing the shoes and pulling them off, the man opens his eyes and stares him square in the eyes. The Texan stated he was so scared he picked his musket back up and advanced without the shoes.
How about the dead at Fredricksburg who were stripped naked in front of the confederate lines?
Even the Time Life Books "The Life of Billy Yank/Johnny Reb make refrence to stripping the dead and combing the battlefield on both sides for recovery of equipment.

[marlin teat]

In the western theater, at least, the battlefield was seldom in C.S. possession after the battle. Members of Tyler's Brigade, Bate's Division were upset when they had to turn in to the quartermaster all items that were recovered from the Chickamauga battlefield to be redistributed on an as-needed basis.

IMHO there is no doubt that there was a large amount of battlfield pick-ups, but just as the original poster mentions, I believe this is all too often used as an excuse to economize when putting together an impression.

[coffee boiler]

First...I have never read an actual account of a soldier claiming to get a new canteen, jacket, etc. from a dead or dying soldier, nor have i ever heard of a soldier picking up a tossed uniform piece or accoutrament while persuing or retreating from an enemy.

References to such practices abound, such as the following:

From William A. Fletcher’s “Rebel Private: Front and Rear – Memoirs of a Confederate Soldier”

Battle of Frederickburg

“In the morning we were sent to the front to relieve the battle line that I had passed through during the night, and nearly all the dead Yankees who were in sight were naked…as the dead bodies were all nearly naked and lying mostly on their back.”

“I saw that our part of the line had stripped the dead the most. The unacquainted would think that this work was done by the line soldier, but was not, only in case of actual necessity. It was largely done near Richmond and by those who made a business of it, as the clothing, when washed, was good stock in second hand stores and its benefit was that it supplied the wanting soldier and poor citizen at a low price. I heard of no effort to stop the practice, and there was no harm in stripping the dead when the party stripped was a party to blockading our ports, which created the urgent necessity.”

[Dignann]

John,

The reference is page 72 of Charles W. Turner, ed. Ted Barclay, Liberty Hall Volunteers: Letters from the Stonewall Brigade. (Natural Bridge Station, Va.: Rockbridge Publishing Company, 1992).

Writing on May 27, 1862 from Stephenson's Depot, Va:

"Our army was rigged out in full suits of Yankee clothes yesterday, but as several had been taken up for Yankees by our cavalry, Gen. Jackson ordered the clothes to be given up, so again we see our old Confederate gray, while yesterday everything was Yankee blue.
"I do not care to get any clothes, but I have one of their famous Belgian rifles and indeed it is an arm to fear, a perfect cannon."

Eric

[orngblsm]

Gentlmen,

Thank you all for your exceptional posts. I have noticed a comonality among them all in that they all refer to confederates pilaging the union. Since I am a federal reenactor I am very much interested in acounts of union troops picking up items. Thanks again for all your imput

I am Respectfully,

[RyanBWeddle]

John Stillwagon had some good quotes from Laws Alabama Brigade regarding the use of Federal stuff. They were to the effect that the veterans of the brigade preferred Federal equipage and a quote from a recruit wanted to acquire some as soon as he could so he would fit in with the veterans of his regiment. This was around or before G'brg.

I don't have them here with me, Stillwagon could post some of them when he sees this thread.

To your other point in the thread:

There are scant references of Federals using CS issue gear. The Federal Ordnance and QM system was overall a very efficient entity. There are some quotes on Federals wearing some captured CS clothing on the March to the sea and such, but it is such a rare occurance. Most of the time when Federals took "battlefield pick-ups" they were sending them home as souveniers rather than using them in the field. There are some famous images of Penna reg'ts at Lookout Mountain wearing snake buckles (see Strayer's Echoes of Battle Chattanooga), but who can say if they were issued, privately purchased, or taken from a battlefield because the soldiers thought they were "cool"????

[John E. Tobey]

Ryan McIntyre,

There are plenty of references to Union troops picking up things from the field and elsewhere. One example would be the member of the 143 PA at Gettysburg who discovered an abandoned knapsack and,

"...found a quantity of writing paper, some tobacco, and some other trinkets. I took some of the writing paper and all the tobacco, leaving the other things in the knapsack with the exception of an artillery jacket, which I appropriated. I removed the red stripes from the jacket and slipped it over my blouse." (Winey, Union Army Uniforms at Gettysburg, p.37.)

Patrick Chesnut of the 126th NY picked up a Confederate shirt after a battle and wore it because his US issue one was "populated by a race of inferior beings."

Sometimes things weren't just "picked up," they were outright stolen: Stephen Chase of the 86th NY stole a comrade's Enfield on the march because it was cleaner than his. (Recollections of Stephen Chase)

The artilleryman Frank Wilkeson was advised by veterans to steal haversacks from sleeping infantrymen while on the march (which he did). He himself had the contents of his knapsack stolen while he was on board a steamer. (Recollections of a Private Soldier in the Army).
A soldier of the 85th NY named Charlie Mosher delighted in stealing things. His journal indicates he would steal anything from frying pans to gum blankets. (Charlie Mosher's Civil War)

Hope this helps.

John Tobey

[Smokey Toes]

At the Battle of Belmont MO, (Grant's first real fight in the war) his own troops stopped to loot the Confederate camp, after they had driven them a considerable distance. Many Federal troops did stop fighting and turned their attention to looting. The confusion in the Federal ranks caused a stall that nearly cost Grant the battle, as his troops had to be herded back into formation by their officers. Meanwhile, the Confederates sent a body of troops to cut him off from his transports, while the rest rallied for a counterattack. See Grant's published Memoirs for his account of the action.

[1stMaine]

Comrades,
The 20th Maine refitted themselves with Springfield rifle-muskets after Gettysburg by simply searching the area around where they were posted. Although equipped with Enfields, the Mainiacs felt that it just wasn't as nice an arm as the Springfield, and so they dropped the Enfields in a pile and took what they needed.
In "The Rebel Yell and the Yankee Hurrah", John Haley of the 17th Maine recounted the part his unit played at Spotsylvania. He said that they were sent to support a brigade that had got itself into trouble, but when they arrived they found it was the 1st Maine Heavy Artillery, which was as large as most brigades. These fellows (the 1stMHA) had dropped their knapsacks into a long line, and afterwards were moved off without the chance to recover them. The 17th Maine boys discovered them, and promptly went to town helping themselves to the contents. Apparently, the 1st Maine HA had drawn new clothing, plus had brought loads of extra items with them (they were new to campaigning, having spent their time in the defenses of Washington). The overstuffed knapsacks, groaning with these "luxuries" were too tempting, and many a soldier of the 17th got a clean shirt, socks, pens, papers, and tinned goods in the bargain. Later it was let on the the Confederates had overrun the area and looted the knapsacks, but in later years, Haley admitted it was the 17th who did the "liberating".
Respects,

[coffee boiler]

Gentlmen,

Thank you all for your exceptional posts. I have noticed a comonality among them all in that they all refer to confederates pilaging the union. Since I am a federal reenactor I am very much interested in acounts of union troops picking up items. Thanks again for all your imput

I am Respectfully,


I suggest you read "Turned inside out" recollections of Frank Wilkenson. While I don't recall any references to pillaging from the dead. He does go into detail of the common practice of stealing from other Union soldiers, such as the following.
"as I had that day found a haversack - truth is that its owner, a heavy artillery man, was asleep when I found it..."
His book is full of accounts like that, as well as many accounts of the coffee boilers.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

After the battle of Antietam, the 14th Indiana was assigned to buring the massive task of buring the dead. Major E. H. Cavins uged his men to pick up rifle muskets from the battlefield. He later wrote " we are a rifle rgt now."

[Silas]

Doesn't he know that every Confederate inverted those plates to create the Southern Nation plate? Infernal farbs! They'll never learn.

http://server1.communehost.com/~authent/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=83&stc=1

[marlin teat]

"As we were in the charge I had an old U.S. musket that would not fire but seeing a wild Yankee lying in a ditch in the pike road with a fine rifle I asked him if it was any good, he said that it was. I told him to take off his belt and cartridge box and give it to me, which he did. I cut off my old belt, cartridge box, and shoulder strap with my jack knife, put on the Yankee accoutrements, took his rifle and went into the charge."

William Judkins
Co. G, 22nd Ga.
Wright's Brigade, Anderson's Div.
Gettysburg, Day 2

There are several things that are interesting about this quote.
Judkins is quite specific in reference to "old U.S. musket" and "new rifle." He knew the difference and didn't interchange the terms as most reenactors do (a pet peeve of mine). Also, his "old U.S. musket" was most likely a different caliber (.69 smoothbore?) other wise why would he have taken time to change accoutrements.

[coffee boiler]

"I cut off my old belt, cartridge box, and shoulder strap with my jack knife, put on the Yankee accoutrements, took his rifle and went into the charge."

What's interesting is that he had to cut off his old belt to get it off.

[Enfilade]

Actually, I believe he cut off his belt and cartridge box sling so as the Yank or anybody else couldn't use them. What d'ya think?

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles
combinations@northstate.net

[10TnVI]

A federal example- from "This Widerness of War" The C.W. letters of George S. Squier(44th Indiana)

From a set of letters written from Murfreesboro during the period after the battle of Stone's River-

Jan. 24, 1863

"Not far from this place and by a large tree lay four dead rebels, By the side of one lay a fine English rifle. It being the same caliber of our guns, I left my musket and took the rifle, simply exchanged with the gentleman. You know, in fifteen minutes after the fight[Jan. 2 engagement], every rebel's pocket was turned in and out. I relieved one of a very good pocket ink stand, which now furnishes me with ink-also a pair of buckskin gloves, which I needed. "

[marlin teat]

Actually I think that Judkins cut off his accoutrements more as a matter of expediency than not wanting them to be used by the Feds. There is an excellent article in the current Blue and Gray about Wrights attack and the actions around the Codori farm. There wasn't a lot of time for him to think that far ahead. I think he was a Sgt. at that time (his service records indicate he bounced around in rank like a yo-yo), most likely a file closer, and had to hurry to keep up with the line.

[GreencoatCross]

Wyman White, of Co. F 2nd U.S. Sharpshooters, noted that around August 1862 he left his regiment while off-duty and went up "Slaughter Mountain" in Virginia a few days after a battle had passed. In his memoirs he made note that while on the top of the mountain near the Slaughter House (not shambles but an estate) he found along the road a blood-drenched "very fine English blanket" that he supposed belonged to a rebel officer. White stated that he took his new blanket to a "negro washwoman" and had her wash the bood out for five cents.

Charles Boardman Mead, a private in Co. F 1st U.S. Sharpshooters made note in his diary of carrying a "secesh" blanket after he left Camp Convalescent in Washington and before he arrived at his regiment in the field in late October of 1863. Where he picked it up or what it looked like was not mentioned but I got the idea that it could have been a battlefield pickup before he went to the hospital or after he left for his regiment.

As far as rebel battle-field pickups go, W. White told a story of needing dry cloth to clean his rifle with. He was on the skirmish line pushing through some woods around the Wilderness in 1864 and happened to find a dead officer and horse. The shell that had killed both rider and horse, he said, had passed through the horse's head cutting it completely off and went through the body of the officer riding on top. White noticed the officer was wearing a rubberized talma or coat that he said was marked with the name of a New Jersey officer, and under the coat he found no less than four layers of cloting on the officer (he thought the officer wore that much clothing to give himself a more stocky appearance-he must have been a specimine of a southern lank). He cut through the top layers of the man's trowsers, these being rebel issue and wet and blood-soaked, and White cut his rifle swabs from a pair of sky blue Federal trowsers. Later that night while telling the 2nd Regiment's major of the dead officer and the job of getting swabs from his pants, the major noted that later that same day soldiers had taken $300 in greenbacks and a gold watch from the officer. So I guess the rebel had the talma, pants, and a ton of cash which all may have been battlefield pickups!

Brian White
Randolph Mess, USSS
Slackerz Saloon Mess, GHTI
www.wwandcompany.net

[Jack Booda]

More Union recycling. From Memoirs of U.S. Grant:

"As Vicksburg 31,600 prisoners were surrendered, together with about 60,000 muskets and a large amount of ammunition. Up to this time our troops at the West had been limited to the old U.S. flintlock muskets changed into percussion... The enemy had generally new arms which had run the blockade and were of uniform caliber. After the surrender I authorized all colonels whose regiments were armed with inferior muskets, to place them in the stack of captured arms and replace them with the latter. A large number of arms turned in to the Ordance Department as captured, were thus arms that had really been used by the Union army in the capture of Vicksburg."

BTW, remember Grant had been a Quartermaster officer early in his career. Thus he knew how to avoid redtape! :)

[1stMaine]

Comrades,
Quote:
"As Vicksburg 31,600 prisoners were surrendered, together with about 60,000 muskets and a large amount of ammunition. Up to this time our troops at the West had been limited to the old U.S. flintlock muskets changed into percussion... The enemy had generally new arms which had run the blockade and were of uniform caliber. After the surrender I authorized all colonels whose regiments were armed with inferior muskets, to place them in the stack of captured arms and replace them with the latter. A large number of arms turned in to the Ordance Department as captured, were thus arms that had really been used by the Union army in the capture of Vicksburg."

Think about the ramifications of that statement for a minute. This is the sort of thing that gives rise to false assumptions amongst historians. How many fellows have assumed that the Confederates captured at Vicksburg were carrying converted flintlocks because that's what was turned in as "captured" weapons? Unless they were privvy to Grant's stement, they would have to go by what the record says, and that would be wrong. It's true that several thousand "old" pattern muskets were turned in, and it's true that several thousand Confederates were captured at Vicksburg, but it's NOT true that those same Johnnies were carrying those old weapons.....
It's akin to the notion that bayonets were never used in melee in the CW because there were fewer than 1000 bayonet wounds treated in Federal hospitals.
What I'm getting at is that this little gem of a revelation from Grant now makes us think twice about not only what is being reported in the official accounts, but the context in which it is reported.
respects,

[RelicRoomGuy]

Interesting stuff!

Our museum collection includes a fine pair of doeskin gloves which Richard S. Desportes, on S.D. Lee's staff, "purchased" from a Yank prisoner for $5 Confederate. (Whether it simply satisfied his sense of honor to pay something, or whether the currency was of any use to the prisoner, are interesting questions). Such exchanges with or confiscations from prisoners may have been more common than literally stripping items from dead bodies -

Glenn Davis, a noncommissioned officer of the 5th SC cavalry, told a story after the war about exchanging hats with a prisoner whose life he had saved (he knocked up a comrade's gun because he realized just in time that the man was surrendering). The man exchanged his new hat for Davis' old one as a gesture of thanks (and perhaps under some duress) and when Davis met him after the war he claimed to have exchanged hats five more times before arriving, hatless, at Richmond.

Davis ALSO took a fine pair of silk suspenders off of a dead Yank in Fayetteville, NC, in '65, and wore them for years after the war, but his comrade U.R. Brooks found this remarkable enough to write about, even saying this was likely the only pair of silk suspenders "not on Yankee shoulders" in the South at the time.

[pvtben]

Ok i am new but i am still gona put my two cents in. Me and my pard talked about this this past weekend and this is what we had come up with. The whole idea of a soldier taking clothing such as pants shirts and such i think would be rare. My father is a parimedic and is around dead all the time. Now i belive that if anyone has been around a soldier or person that has been dead would most likely not even want to get close to the body. Now in the whole battlefield pickup thing i do have faith in But i belive that in if it was not on a body if could have and was most likely picked up. I have read accounts about guns and ammuntion but not clothing. I have had looked at pictures and seen things such as federal canteens and accounterments but who's to say that they were taking off a soldier after he was shot. I hope at least i was able to help with this.

Pvt Ben Jenkins
19th La Infantry

[Smokey Toes]

I understand your point, and grant that it may have been the attitude of many a soldier at the beginning of their service. However, there are too many accounts stating the exact opposite, which does not support this mentality. Over time and exposure to the battlefield, these same recruits became jaded to the sight of the dead and dying. I believe the fact that their new coat, blanket, shoes or overcoat came off the body of dead man was more of an afterthought than a deterrent, especially if it meant that the article just acquired would get him through another winter or increase his survivability and comfort.

From Bell Wiley's The Life of Johnny Reb,
On April 24th 1862, A war correspondent from the Richmond Daily Dispatch wrote the following after the battle of Shiloh.
"Other results of our victory are also everywhere visible. Unless he knew better, a stranger would mistake our army for first rate Yankees. Fully three-fifths of the men are dressed in Federal hats and overcoats." (page 115)

[marlin teat]

In my opinion clothing items were more often than not looted from captured stores, knapsacks, etc.

Example:

"Another command of South Carolinians was coming up on their front, we in the rear, and another command on their left. We had them in a pretty close place with only one place to get out, and they got.

They had just issued out their rations. We ran them away and got their grub of salt pork, lard, and old time ground coffee with sugar in it. In addition to rations we got blankets, oilcloths, fly tents, blue overcoats*, axes, and knapsacks filled with good underclothing, which were very accecptable, and a lot of stationary. I filled hy haversack with salt pork, my knapsack with crackers, and my coat pockets with coffee."

William Judkins
22nd Ga., Wright's Brigade
2nd Fredricksburg

*It is believed the the overcoats worn in the famous "Three members of the 3rd Georgia" photograph were among those captured at this time.

[fidlr1]

[QUOTE=1stMaine]Comrades,
Quote:

.....
It's akin to the notion that bayonets were never used in melee in the CW because there were fewer than 1000 bayonet wounds treated in Federal hospitals.

Excuse me if this gets off the thread a little bit, maybe the fact that only
1000 wounds were treated was because most of the fellows who got stuck never
made it to the hospital...

[marine05]

It seems to me that while reading an account of Cedar Creek, that one of the reasons the Confederate Attack stalled was that the soldiers were busy looting the Federal camp. I cannot remember the source, but I'll try to find in and post.

Dan McLean

[markj]

Greetings,

More grist for the mill. This is taken from a letter currently offered for sale on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2221617762&category=36036

I can't vouch for the authenticity of this item but it apparently describes the fighting around Peach Treek Creek GA in July 1864. The man's unit is not mentioned but, given that he states the 70th Indiana was in his brigade, it appears he belonged to one of the other following units:

102nd Illinois
105th Illinois
129th Illinois
79th Ohio
(3rd Division, 1st Brigade, 20th Army Corps)

Check it out:

***
Dear Parents,

.....I suppose you will have heard of the battle in front of Atlanta fought on yesterday. It was a hard struggle but we gained ground. It was a harder fight than any fight we have had this campaign. That is it was the most severe engagement our corps has been in. Our company escaped without a single man being hurt. There was one of our men got scratched on the shoulder by a spent ball. It stiffened his arm a little. That was the only accident in our company. We were very lucky. The regiment lost pretty heavy. We made a spendid movement while advancing against the enemy. I don't think there would have been any fight yesterday but the rebel General Joe Johnston has been superseded by General Hood. Johnston is to report himself at Richmond for not fighting Sherman. Hood led the rebels against us and neither side having breastworks to lay behind we advanced half way and met them. It was a fair fight and if they wont give up now that our forces are superior in everything to theirs and still want to fight us then I must say that they have a plucky army in this department. Hood is more reckless and more daring than Johnston ever was. We cleaned them out yesterday and can do it again if they want to try us. I expect we will have a little fighting to do yet before we get into Atlanta. I don't think there will be much. Capt. Dunlevy told me this morning that he thought we would be in there tonight.....There is an open field across the creek from where I am that was covered thick with dead and wounded rebels. They were mostly dead. Some of them were awful to look at. There is a boy in the 70th Ind in our brigade who found nine twenty dollar gold pieces on a rebel colonel and a gold watch. I have got on a pair of suspenders that I took off a rebel. Mine were entirely worn out or I should not have taken them. The report is that General Hood was killed yesterday.....It is pretty quiet along the lines today. There is some firing on the right at long intervals.....
***

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[markj]

Greetings,

I just nailed down a partial ID for the above man based on another letter of his being offered for sale. His name was "Willie" and he served in Company B, 79th Ohio Volunteer Infantry.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Rufus]

During the attack on Fort Stedman at Petersburg there was accounts of confederates stoping during battle to take food from the dead and what was left lying around the area. They even went so far as to eat it right there rather than saving it for later.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

"When we struck the crest I never halted, for my mind was set on some rebel knapsack... ...I found an opportuntity to make a good choice of knapsacks, as the ground was literaly covered with them as though the rebels had been perfectly panic stricken, and in their haste to get away had divested themselves of every pound of wieght they could possibly spare. After looking over a few I chose one which I thought would supply all my needs. Upon examiningmy prize I found a good government blanket, two shirts, two pairs of drawers, a pair of light summer pants, a night cap, a plug of tobacco, and a cornpone."

Levi Wagner
1st Ohio
After the Battle of Missionary Ridge

[hireddutchcutthroat]

"...the first thing I did after the rebels skedaddled was grab a full haversack and jerk it off a wounded rebel captains neck. He was shot in the shoulder and his hand lay on the open mouth of the haversack on the downhill side. I opened it and divided its contents with my comrades. It was saturated with the rebel captains blood, but we ate it all the same."

Sgt. Thomas Ford
24th Wisconsin

[Jimmayo]

Sorry to bring this post back but it has taken me a while to find this account.
After the battle of Fredricksburg, John Tee of the 3rd Va. wrote the following in his reminiscence:

“The next day a flag of Truce was agreed on to bury the dead. Mr. Bonserate of our company said to me, John you need a pair of pants, lets go and see if we can get them. We started out and went nearly down to the Rappahanock river and all the bodies had been stripped of clothing, after almost giving up the job we saw a blue object between two hills which proved to be a big Dutchman with a hole through his forehead and one through the leg of the pants, not hitting the flesh however. Mike says “hesitate John, I would not hesitate a minute”. I said to him, take one leg Mike and we soon had the pants. I sat down and put them on. Very bad fit but were better than the ones I had before. I had these pants on when I was captured seven months after this.”

Must not have been soiled too bad since John sat down and immediately put them on.

[roundshot]

As far as Yanks gleaning from Rebs, there is the account of J ohn Haley of the 17th Maine in front of Petersburg: 9/5/64 " Just previous to our exchange of pickets tonight, I went out and had an interesting interview with a young Johnny Reb . . . He was uncommonly well dressed . . . [and] had one desire that outweighed all others- to get something that belonged to a genuine Yankee. I had on a particularly shoddy cap and I noted he wore a fine one of English make. He seemed perfectly satisfied with the exchange, even though it was not a fair bargain. The usual Southron is alert to our devious character in sharp trading, but this young lad must have been new to the practice." From"The Rebel Yell and Yankee Hurrah."

Bob Williams

[Holy Joe]

Excellent data provided here...thanks to everyone for sharing!

I've noticed a few instances in the Louisiana Overland and Red River Campaigns of '63 and '64 where Confederate troops and Regimental/Brigade QM's were active in picking up "discarded" items from the battlefield.

Report of Brig. Gen. Tomas Green, C.S. Army

Headquarters Forces on Atchafalaya,
Camp McBride, La., October 2, 1863.


Major: I have the honor herewith to tender a full report of the action on September 29 at the Fordoche Bridge and Mrs. Stirling's place, on the Fordoche, 6 miles from Morganza.....At daylight on the morning of the 29th, the troops were ready for the march. Colonel Henry Gray, commanding Mouton's brigade, was ordered to take up his line of march (Speight's brigade having been added to his command together with 15 mounted men from Waller's battalion, under command of Lieutenant Weisiger) by a trail through the swamp, which intersected the Morganza State road some 4 miles from that place, and between the enemy's forces at Morganza and their advance at Mrs. Stirling's and the Fordoche bridge. Colonel Gray was ordered to attack the enemy's advance at once on reaching the intersection of road, which he did by ordering Speight's brigade, under command of Lieutenant-Colonel Harrison, to the attack....The result of the victory consists of 433 non-commissioned officers and privates and 29 officers prisoners, two 10-pounder Parrott guns in fine order, with cassions complete, 2 new ambulances and 1 hospital wagon, new, filled with medical stores, and 2 stand of regimental colors belonging to the Nineteenth Iowa and Twenty-sixth Indiana Volunteers. Many small arms and accouterments were saved, and every man with an inferior weapon was supplied with a good and efficient one....." [OR XXXVIII p. 329-330]

There is also a Federal report that supports the the supposition that these Trans-Miss rebs were reissuing or "recycling" captured Federal gear;

Hdqrs. Second Division, Thirteenth Army Corps
Morganza, La., September 30, 1863.


Colonel: I have the honor to report that I assumed command of the detachment here at noon on the 28th instant, Major-General Herron leaving at that time.....The road was bad and heavy for marching, and the rain was drenching, and when Colonel Black had proceeded 3 miles, he met Major Montgomery with his cavalry detachment, and from him and stragglers he learned that the enemy had attacked Lieutenant-Colonel Leake's command on all sides at once; had surprised him by coming through the cane and corn fields of the country, as well as by the road, and by first opening the attack in the rear, and being dressed in United States uniforms...." [OR XXXVIII p.322]

And a quote specific to Polignac's Texas Brigade immediately following Mansfield/P. Hill;

"Polignac led his men back to their camps above Mansfield in easy marches on April 10 and 11. There on the 12th, the Texas brigade drew new canteens, cartridge boxes, belts, and bayonets from captured Union stores in preparation for a renewal of fighting." [Barr p.41]

[hireddutchcutthroat]

I found nothing to suit till I came to a rebel colonel who had a fine, large, gray overcoat and trimmed with gold braid. I rolled him over and took it off; took it to camp under my arm thinking, "Now I will have something fine and warm to put about me", but alas! When I got nice and settled down to sleep I could not sleep. The thoughts of lying under that rebel overcoat, and taking it off him in that lonley battlefield, overcame me. The way he appeared to me in the bright light of the moon made me think I was robbing my dead enemy, when he was helpless to defend himself, and no witness to the action but the sweet silvery moon. My heart filled with emotion and I got up and took it back and laid it over him, then returned to my company and lay down under a part of my comrads blanket, and immediatly went to sleep with a full ration in my stomach.

Sgt. Thomas Ford
24th Michigan

[marine05]

Not really sure that this qualifies as a 'battlefield pickup', but in reading Last Full Measure, about the 1st Minn, not the third book in the trilogy of the CW, a young soldier was wounded. A shell hit next to him and two of his mates, didn't kill any of them, but he was wounded in the groin. Actually his haversack was over his groin, a shell fragment or earth smashed into the haversack shredded it and as he found out later smashed a bottle he was carrying sending shards of glass into his thigh. After being a walking wounded for a couple of days he began to pick the glass out of his body and began to feel better. He was sent to a field hospital after his initial wounding and he picked up a "short" rifle to be used as a crutch, put the stock under his arm and the muzzle in the dirt.

Anyway after he began to feel better, a few days, he left the hospital to return to his company, he said "I picked up a rifle, a well stocked cartridge box, canteen, haversack and stuffed it full of items I needed and went to find the regiment."

[Mike Ventura]

From the Inspecton Report of Lt. Gen'l Joseph Wheeler's Cavalry Corps by Col. C. C. Jones in Jan-Feb 1865:

"ARMS
As a general rule, there is a great want of uniformity in the armament
of this command. The principal weapons in the hands of the men are the
long and short Enfield rifle, the Springfield musket, the Austrian
rifle, a variety of breech loading rifles, viz: the Spencer, the
Burnside, the Sharp, Maynard &c. and various kinds of pistols. Many if
not all of the breech loading rifles and pistols are captured arms. For
some of them, as the Spencer, there is a great difficulty in procuring
the requisite amount of ammunition, the supply now in the cartridge
boxes of the men and the ordnance train having been obtained exclusively
by capture...
...With such a variety of calibers, and in view of the fact that the
supply is at best but limited and uncertain, for at least some of the
guns mentioned, it becomes almost a matter of impossibility to secure at
all times the proper amount of ammunition...
...Many of the arms now in the hands of the men are claimed by them as
private property, having been secured by them by capture, purchase or
exchange...
...Captured arms are not turned over in very many respects as they
should be to the ordnance officer. Indifferent or heavy guns are
privately exchanged by the men upon the battlefield and elsewhere for
light carbines and other guns more suited to the fancy of the captor,
and thus where uniformity of armament existed, there occurs an
interpolation of guns of various calibers, descriptions and ranges....

And further on:

ACCOUTREMENTS
The deficiency existing in this particular is patent, a full supply, I
am informed, has never been received, and many of the accoutrements now
in use are captured property.

[DougCooper]

Would be interesting to know if there is a primary source or a new book or paper on the attitude of the avg CS soldier toward his govt's ability to supply him with sufficient uniforms, equipment and especially weapons. There are many anecdotes of course but I am wondering if there was a sort of tacit acceptance on the part of overworked and under-appreciated QM's, as well as the soldiers themselves, that a certain pct of supply must come from the enemy. One wonders if there was a mental calculation on the part of the central QM to this effect when establishing rates of resupply, etc. There is no particular reason I can discern why overcoats could not be produced in larger quantities, yet they were not. Was there some calculation that enough could procured from the enemy to cover most requirements, allowing the QM's to concentrate on other items?

In Mike's excellent post above Col Jones decries the attitude that would consider captured property the private property of the soldier vice govt property. Jones might as well curse the wind - I imagine your avg soldier operated on the simple principle that "one in the hand is worth two in the bush" - "no matter how hard it is to get ammo for my new weapon, there is no way I am turning this back in to the QM - I will never see it again."

So you have the equivalent of a black market in weapons and ammo that the system cannot properly account for and hence supply. After awhile the system would begin to be tolerated by all concerned if the result was that everyone acutally had a weapon. American soldiers have always been extremely self sufficient...a good thing in this case. Doing less with more was the watchword of nearly every facet of Southern Industry...and it matched the attitude of self reliance and ingenuity of the soldiers themselves.
Great thread!!!

[TeamsterPhil]

I wish I'd seen this thread when I was at work to day.

Battlefield pickups started very early in the war. I have a copy of a letter written by a Virginia Private, just after 1st Manassas, stating that he was kept dry by a blanket taken from a dead Union cavalryman, and the letter was being written using paper and pen taken from the same source.

Phil Campbell

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

There are some surviving letters of officer A.C. Riley of the 1st Missouri Infantry on 'union' stationary taken from an Ohio regiment's campsite at Shiloh.

Missouri Historical Review had a multi-part article several years back by descendant H. Riley Bock of New Madrid, Mo.

John Pillers

:)

[marine05]

Here's another one that I found interesting also in the book on the First Minnesota Volunteers: Oct 26, 1862 was extremely hot, according to Lochern, who recalled the effect of the heat on the Nineteenth Maine, a brand-new regiment recently brigaded with the Minnesotans and now marching just ahead of them. The men were "unused to marching with the heavy loads carried by soldiers, and having knapsacks stuffed with everything, provided by the thoughtful care of friends and relatives on leaving home, found their burdens too heavy, and, in general, lightened by throwing away their new overcoats, strapped on top, and most readily removed. As our regiment marched next behind, with light knapsacks, and were well seasoned to fatigue, the men picked up the overcoats, and before night were fully supplied, ready for the cold weather, which set in within a week afterward."

So I guess they did!!

YOS,

DJM

[ScottMcKay]

Here's an account of battlefield pickups and those of another sort. It is from a letter to the wife of 2Lt Sebron G. Sneed of Co. G, 6th & 15th Texas Regiment in regards to the engagement at Dug Gap on May 8, 1864, the opening day of the Atlanta Campaign. This passage focuses on the day after the fight:

“The next day we built breastworks on the summit of the ridge - - Went over the battle field. There were one hundred and twenty nine dead yankees in front of our Brigade and a number of wounded. Our men got plenty of coffee and little necessaries from Knapsacks that were left on the field. I got a blanket, the first yankee property I have had, We lost all our baggage that we threw off at the place we were ordered to double quick - - Some of the soldiers that we were going up to assist rifled the pile of everything that was worth carrying away. They went down the mountain that night before we could send for our baggage. I thought a mean trick - - Had we been running away from battle, then I would not have minded it, but since we had thrown down our things in order to hasten to the relief of the very men who plundered us I cannot but say it was thievish and they were a set of scoundrels but such acts are not uncommon - Southern Chivalry will do to boast over, but to tell you the plain fact, there is as much low manners and cowardice in the Southern ranks as you will find anywhere else. There are some Regiments and brigades that are the honorable exceptions and not only fight nobly, but in their intercourse with the citizens and with each other seem to be actuated by the spirit of gentlemen generals, but with the citizens and the balance of the army, so far as plundering and robbing them would indicate; and they live for self alone - - preying upon their comrades and countrymen whenever they can do so without being detected. The war is having a fearfully demoralizing influence on our men - developing what some had heretofore kept concealed and implanting the seeds of viciousness and selfishness in the hearts of others that be hard to eradicate.”

[ScottMcKay]

I have several regimental accounts that mention just 'Kentucky Cavalry' as the men that ransacked the baggage of the men that came to their aid, but the following article from the Memphis Daily Appeal (published in Atlanta) on the next day, gives more detail to the identity of those men.

FROM THE FRONT.</O:p

<O:p
DALTON</ST1:p, May 9. - Hookers corps attempted yesterday afternoon to carry Dug gap by storm, but the attack was defeated by Grigsby’s Kentucky cavalry and the 1<SUP>st</SUP> Arkansas Infantry, who repulsed three assaults, inflicting loss on the enemy.
<O:p</O:p

Our ammunition becoming exhausted, the men resisted the last assault by pelting the enemy with stones, until the arrival of Granbury’s <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><st1:City><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = <st1:pTexas</ST1:p</st1:State> brigade when the enemy were routed as he hastily withdrew. Our loss was very small. One Yankee lieutenant and twenty men were captured. Slight skirmishing was going on in front up to dark.<O:p</O:p

The enemy having massed a heavy force in front of Rocky Face five lines of battle being visible, it was thought they would attempt to carry it by storm this morning, but as yet no demonstration has been made.<O:p</O:p

[Holy Joe]

Found a couple more, one relating to battlefield pickups, the other relating to the "spoils of war";

MOBILE REGISTER AND ADVERTISER, July 24, 1864, p. 1, c. 8

Picture of the War.
Jack Hardin, or the Old Soldier of the Arizona Brigade.
[From the Texas Telegraph]

* * * He was passing by our camp with a simple nod, driving before him a miserable pony that should have been discharged with a pension.

"Stop, old soldier, and give us the news. What command are you from?"

"Baylor's regiment, Major's division. Wo, there, Starvation, and browse the leaves a little. "Hain't had a mouthful but piney woods grass for four days."

"Is that a specimen of your cavalry horses that have had the forty-six days' running fight."

"Not exactly. I had a first-rate horse I got from a dead Ohio Yankee, t'other day, but I met a fine boy going to the army, limping yet from a wound at Pleasant Hill, and he had broke down this horse and was trying to walk. As I was going on a furlough, I took his nag and gave him mine, and I have been driving him and walking ever since."

"Put him to the trough there; he shall be fed. Where is your command now, and what doing?"

"Chasing the d---d Yankees yet—down below the Atchafalaya—giving 'em h—l."

"You don't seem to have much affection for the rascals. Why are you going the wrong way to find and punish them?"

"Well, Capting. I've been thinking o' that, and have half a notion to turn back. But then you see I'm 55 years old and I have not had no furlough or lost a day in three years and three months; and I drawed with the rest of the boys and it was my luck to get it. I offered it for a pound of tobacco, but none of 'em had more'n a chaw, and so I started; sort o' shamed too 'cause I hadn't no family, but a little girl with her mother's people way down in San Antonio. Hain't no home myself. So I told the boys to give me all their money and I'd go out and see my child and bring in a load of country tobacco. They said hurrah for old Jack Hardin, they did; and they gave me their little change. They've only given me a short furlough and I think old Starvation can't make it to San Antonio and back, so I'll gist go out to Hardin county and see my old uncle, git my tobacco and come back and let some of the other boys go."

"Have you been through all the fights without getting wounded or taken prisoner—Arizona and all?"

"Everywhere, and never got a scratch; but good many times I thought it was all up. You've hearn of Glorietta, I reckon. Well thar was the d---st place I ever got into. I was left with the sick to watch the teams, and all of 'em went into the fight and 'fore I know'd it, here come the Yanks to cut off our train and teams and all. I did manage, God knows how, to chase off twenty mules down a holler and hid behind the rocks, and they never did find me nor my mules; so I saved that many, and that was all that was saved. It saved the lives of our poor sick boys, for they couldn't walk, and every d—d thing besides was gone up."

"But you have a new homespun coat; where did you secure that piece of good luck. The dead Yankee that gave you a horse was not dressed in homespun, was he?"

"No, I was in a sort of hurry when I got his horse, or I'd pulled on his long boots, seein' he wouldn't need 'em any more. But d—n his blue coat! I'd go naked 'fore I'd wear that! You see the hailstones was mighty thick and I might o' got hurt by delayin'. This coat ha, ha! I got curious. As I came along in the jayhawker thicket a feller jumped up from behind a tree and run like a quarter horse. I reckon he'd been asleep. I examined his bed and found only this coat, which had been his pillow. It fits me mighty well, and as I had none I just borrowed it. My old uncle, they say, is rich and I wanted a coat for fear he wouldn't own me. And that d—d jayhawker, he hain't got no rich uncle to visit. I reckon, if he kept on agoin' he's at Orleans by this time."

Having replenished his pony and his appetite, he trudged on saying, "Might obliged, Capting; good luck!" Three days later I was astonished at a hearty salute from old Jack Hardin, passing by with only a "gwine back, you see!"

"Hold on here, my old soldier—halt, and give us the news of your rich uncle."

"Well, I heard at Jasper that he'd moved away out 'tother side of the Warloup [sp?], and I thought it warn't no use to be follerin' him, so I jist gathered up as much tobacker as the pony could travel under, and started back to camps. You see, I hain't got no home and nobody, but the boys cares for Hardin, and the tobacker will give him a welcome. I bet they'll hurrah when they see me and old 'Starvation' with the load. Then they might git into a fight, and they'd miss old Hardin equal to a squad of doctors among our wounded men. They'll miss me—they will if any on 'em gits hurt." And he started off.

"Stop. You shall not be cheated out of your furlough. Just report to the sergeant in camp, and put old "Star" in the cavallard. He shall be fed—and you, too, till you recruit."

"Thank you, Capting; I'll do that. But you're the first man has offered me shelter since I started. These d----d fellows this o' way don't know that a soldier's human—they think he's a feller to gouge, and charge him a month's wages for a night's lodgin'. D---n 'em! They need a Yankee raid up here. I hearn one making a mighty fuss out here, cause one of his niggers has to work for the Government at the breastworks. I axed him how many years he'd carried a musket in the war himself. This sort o' flummoxed him, and he said he was 45.

"And I'm 55," says I, "and would fight the Yankees if I was 65, ef I could see to draw a bead."

Three days after I called for Jack, thinking to make him a courier to Gen. Taylor, as I needed one; but he was gone—left early that morning, leaving me a message of "bleeged," and saying to the sergeant:--"Tell the 'Capting' that he knows now how to treat an old soldier. That I'm washed clean, well rested, got my belly full, and horse, too, and am good for another three years now, or for the war, if it takes forty years to whip out the Yanks."

Let the readers of this sketch remember the name of old Jack Hardin, of Baylor's regiment, Arizona regiment, as a model patriot and soldier.



From the MOBILE REGISTER AND ADVERTISER, May 15, 1864, p. 3, c. 3;
(Referring to the aftermath of the Red River Campaign)
From the Houston Telegraph, April 23.....

In the saddle near Grand Ecore, La....Many of the stately residences along the route are blackened ruins, the fences destroyed by fire, and a scene of desolation and devastation is seen on every side. I wondered what the object was for an army and people who professed to belong to a Christian nation, to thus devastate the land they profess to come to save—oh shame! where is thy blush? I had formerly believed that many of the stories of the burning of dwellings, robberies of churches, &c., were exaggerated, but after seeing these things with my own eyes I am now satisfied they are true. A Catholic Church in the Spanish settlement near Double Bayou bridge was sacked and the church ornaments carried away, even the window curtains were taken. This cannot be denied.
In the knapsack of one of the 10th army corps was found the jewelry of a young lady. Ear-rings, breastpins, and even her underclothing was there. I will do the enemy the justice to say that the orders of their Generals severely punish outrages of this kind, but many of the inferior officers encourage their men to do these acts, and even share with them in the spoils. These incidents are no bombast or misrepresentation. I can vouch for their truth. Well may we say, "Oh Union, what atrocities are committed in thy name!" . . . Sioux.

[BobRoeder]

More a trade of necessity, but thought it could be included in the examples offered thus far.

From A Yankee Private's Civil War - Robt. Hale Strong, pg. 20.

While fighting in Georgia, Strong recounts the following: "We went back to the breastworks [relieved from the skirmish line] and were eating our crackers and coffee when some of the men from the skirmish line came up with a rush. Some Rebels were attacking. Captain Scott says, 'Boys, you will have to move.' We jumped up. As we struck our feet, down went Elias Cook, shot through the breast...Things calmed down on the skirmish line, so we sat down again. Almost immediately, we had to rise and get ready to fight if needed. Elias Burns sang out, 'The Rebel bullet is not yet made, that is to kill me.' At that, he jumped up and fell down the same instant with a bullet in his brain. He fell across my lap - I was still sitting - and his brains and blood ran into my haversack, spoiling my rations. So I took his."

[tmdreb]

Not a good day to be named Elias.

[NCyankee]

Maybe more guys could say it's what was issued instead of they picked it up when using federal qear as part of their confederate impression.
Lots of reports about cavalry action from Forrest,Stuart,Mosby,Wheeler and more list captured supplies in detail and number. Many reports list thousands of arms or accouterments,uniform parts,blankets and all sorts of stuff captured on raids not to mention livestock,ammo and rations.
While the north usually burned warehouses and depots full of southern goods they captured, captured northen supplies were usually turned over to the army quartermaster dept. and issued where needed.

Chad Nasworthy

[jamie gillum]

Thomas R. Hooper, of the 16th Tennessee, recorded in his diary that at the battle of Perryville while going to the rear after being wounded:

"I now was so weak that I could not keep up, I therefore went to the rear, taken a pair of shoes off a dead Yank upon my way, but I would not have did it for aany a minute if I had not have been in great need of them. I also picked up a cup and canteen - could here get peaches and a great many thirsting if I could have packed them."

Jamie Gillum

[csuniforms]

In the St. Charles Historical Society in Illinois is a English knapsack picked up at Atlanta and carried by a member of the 127th Illinois for the rest of the war, and brought home.

Headquarters Dep't of the Cumberland
Murfreesboro, Tenn. Feb. 20, 1863.

General Oder No. 10.

IT having been frequently reported to the General Commanding that the Confederate soldiers approach our lines dressed in our uniforms and apperard such in battle and thus savagelike, carried out colors to deceive us. It is ordered that none so dressed shall receive when so captured, the rights of prisoners of war and that in battle no quarter be given them.

By Command of Major General Rosecrans.

As a consequence from the 60th NY- October, 1863.

A day or two after the regiment left, 37 non-commissioned officers and men of Longstreet's Corp came into Bridgeport and gave themselves up.
The Rebels understanding that orders were given to shoot all prisoners taking having on the US uniforms...when captured some are entirely destitute of clothing in fear of the consequences.

So during a tactical-- in some situations to be captured naked would be very very authentic--:eek:
From Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown

Tom Arliskas
csuniforms

[Johnny Lloyd]

To all:

I have been in WBTS living history since 1997. I still try to attend an event or two when I have leave off from the Army.
As a note: I have served for the past 4 years in a Quartermaster Battalion in the modern US Army and while in Iraq for 14 months. Here are my personal observations on the "battlefield pickups" and troop issuing equipment situation in modern-day warfare below. (Note: it might have been different during the WBTS- transportation and supply was certainly not as regular as we have it today in the Army, but human mentality changes very little over the ages.)

-I was attached as a military trainer to the Iraqi Army. I am in the Army, but I worked mostly with Marines and Iraiqs. I was the supply officer to my team as well as the supply liason/trainer to a 250+ Iraqi battalion. Since my nearest supply warehouse was Marine-run, I wore Marine-issue equipment. I made sure to wear my patrol cap (which is Army-pattern ACU) and Army 1LT or CPT rank so everyone knew I was in the Army when I wore my Marine flight suit. I NEVER wore Marine Utilities because this would look "too Marine" and I wasn't- I'm an Army officer. But the desert sand colors of equipment (magazine pouches/goggles/pattern of eyewear/gunner's gloves, in particular) I wore were solely Marine once my Army stuff was broken or lost. We thought, who cares- it was good quality equipment and provided we didn't look "too Marine" then we could use the equipment. I was even issued the older DCU pattern equipment when I was downrange due to the fact our Army-run warehouses didn't have any more current ACU-pattern- they simply ran out of the "good stuff" so I was given old stuff and had to give that to my fellow transition-team members.
From a supply officer's point-of-view think about it: You issue what you've got and provided it isn't obscuring someone's branch-of-service with another branch and giving a false uniform, you are good-to-go.

-We went into Kuwait with older DCU equipment issued to us from our home-station supply activity. All at one time in Kuwait, my battle rattle uniform had BDU, DCU and ACU patterns of equipment at one time in used and new condition. Bear in mind- I am an Army regular officer. I saw some Minnesota National Guardsmen and other Reservists with ALL ACU-pattern equipment with the latest and best backpacks their state could buy them. The were better outfitted than I was and I am a regular officer!

-As far as "battlefield pickups" are concerned. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen insurgents with American/Soviet pieces of equipment. Remember the picture of Zarqawi firing a M249 SAW??? That was an American-made weapon by FN of Columbia SC. How'd he get that? (He didn't know how to use the darn thing anyway.) ;) Iraqi soldiers would use US equipment in a heartbeat because their own supply lines were awful and US stuff was better in design and quality.

- Generally, in battle, if a piece of equipment is of better quality, fit, or pattern than the one you got issued, then you'll use it. Who cares if it came from a dead guy? Now Americans wouldn't use Iraqi equipment because it was inferior, but I know many US advisors that have an extra AK-47 in their kit with ammo because it's nice to have a full-auto backup weapon to your M-16 or M4 carbine. You can check one out from the Iraqi battalion generally. You might use a shemaugh (Arab checkered headcloth) under your helmet for warmth or to prevent dust from getting in your throat.

Sorry, guys, knowing what I know from working in and with a military warehouse in actual battle, human mentality and military mentality doesn't change. If you were Confederate, sometimes unless you were near a depot, you wouldn't even have supply lines left especially during the later years of the war. Knowing what I know about the mentalities of actual war and the military, I just cannot see a Confederate on the move and starving, refusing to replace his worn-out butternut jeancloth with a pair of brand-new sky blue Federal pants grabbed off of a dead Federal soldier. "No, these are not my correct uniform pattern" would be the LAST thing out of his mouth- trust me. Soldiers aren't like that. You take what you can get- especially if you are in want of better. In the instance of not always having pictoral evidence to provide information, remember that many after-battle pictures were heavily propped and possible naked bodies were quickly clothed to preserve period sensibilities, so those pictures could be wrong. We have to bear that in mind when looking at a period picture- it COULD be as is, but it MIGHT be staged. Also, remember that it is easy to say some things when you are well-fed, reasonably warm, and nicely clothed on a reenactment weekend, but try to remember that many people had to find a way to clothe and feed themselves when they were on-campaign, many times without regular supply.

BLUF: You use what you got, but if you can get better, then by all means do so. Just don't look too much like the enemy or another branch-of-service to avoid confusion. Who give a darn what pattern it is or color...

Thanks- Johnny Lloyd

PS- I cannot tell where I was or any more specifics due to OPSEC, but the above is true to what I experienced for 14 months.

[Joe Walker]

Mr. Brenner and Mr. Badget,

Ref: Utoy Creek "Trade"

The Orphan Bdge soldier traded his "spoon bill cap" for the sombrero- he didn't steal it. Obvioulsy not a fair trade- No doubt a kepi didn't help keep the Georgia sun off his neck. Interesting example of caps being used at the time by CS boys.

Joe Walker

(grew up on the Utoy battlefield)

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

regarding "Battlefield Pickups"... I always thought the best one was "Ya know, those are some nice lookin' breastworks you have there..."

Heh :rolleyes:

Civil War Humour...

Respects,

[John McClellan]

A question I have talked over and wondered, what about officer's Harrdee hats in the ranks as a pick up?
Thanks
John McClellan
Fowlers Battery

[Joe Walker]

Mr. McCellan,

Gen McPherson's hat susposedly was "captured" by a member of Granbury's brigade when the Gen was killed at Atlanta. I believe it was the officer Hardee style. He claims he wore it after captured and could only think what would happen to him if his guards knew where he got his hat.


Joe Walker

[Johnny Lloyd]

To all:

I think we can all pretty much agree that "battlefiled pickups" were pretty common, but regular issue was very common as well. This might be true especially if you were a Federal with better access to better equipment.

In my research over the 10+ years I have been a living historian, it is terribly ignorant to say battlefield pickups weren't done commonly. But it is also just as ignorant to portray the ranks as -too- variated in issue (especially early war Confederate/Federal and a majority of Federal units) and this is particularly true for a proper Federal impression just about anywhere. Yes, we know both North and South had a 'veriform' at times but your average soldier had a regimental/battalion/company quartermaster that was worried about trying to supply his troops as best as he could. Plus, never underestimate the power of Private Joe Snuffy buying his own stuff from an uncrupulous sutler or trading his original kit for stuff he likes the looks of. Provided no one in your chain-of-command says anything about it and it isn't ostentatious or stand-out like a sore thumb, generally you can use it. That's still true to this day in our Army.

Bottom line: Do your research for a better impression. Remember battlefield pickups were common and likely, but if you find out your unit at the time you are trying to portray in the war was well-supplied, then by all means dress accordingly. But if you are a "hardcore" that doesn't believe it was done- just know, to a point varied issue of equipment STILL happens today as well as battlefield pickups if the equipment is better than yours. Now, wind back the clock 150 years and you'll get the idea that soldiers don't change.

Another word-of-caution about period images: Remember your average soldier would try his best to look sharp for the camera and his family/sweetheart that the photo was intended for. This was, and still is, impressive to those civilians you are trying to impress.

I don't know about you, but I'd like to 'look military' if I could for an important photograph.

So, put on your best traps, cut/comb your hair and shine your brass! But don't say cheese for your ambrotype... especially if you don't have good teeth.

;)


Yours-
Johnny Lloyd

GBOH

[1stMaine]

Comrades,

As to CS soldiers uysing Federal equipment, I would argue against to much of it being "battlefield pickup" and, rather, argue in fovaor of it being obtained through CS issue.

Reading through "The Wartime Papers of Robert E. Lee", there are numerous accounts from him about the numbers, the sheer volume of equipment gathered up from the battlefield. The army had assigned trams to go over the field and recover any and all serviceable items (and many that weren't) and these were forwarded to depots to be sorted through, rebuilt,/refurbished as needed, and reissued to CS troops.

In fact, it is my own opinion (and nothing more) that a great deal of the federal canteens seen of CS troops are reissued fedral items from the CS Quartermaster. Same for Cartridge boxes and other equipments.

One other thing to consider, and I only toss this out for discussion, but is it at all possible that the use of indigo blue facings on the "CD" jackets, and others, might be the result of the reuse of captured federal coats and jackets? Cutting them up for trim seems to me a very good use for them.

Respects,

[Secesh]

Howdy All,
My cousin served 2 tours in Nam with Army Special Forces, and I recall him telling me that he and his buddies would use NVA backpacks when they could get them, as they generally were a more compact and comfortable fit than Army issue. Best regards.

[Dignann]

Although not a battlefield pickup, it does speak to the Union Army issuing captured footwear. This from a soldier in the 13th New Jersey Infantry, during the winter of 1862-1863 in Stafford County, Virginia.


"I learned that my Uncle David, a lieutenant in the Thirty-fifth New Jersey, was at Aquia creek, and obtained a pass to go and see him. It involved a walk over five or six miles through the thickest and deepest mud. When I reached his camp my trousers were besmeared to the knees and my shoes were filled with the red pigment. My uncle went to the sutler's and presented me with a nine-dollar pair of boots, coming to the knees. They were admirable for the purpose of keeping out of the mud, and I was heartily pleased with the present.

My uncle probably never knew what became of those boots. On the next march they hurt my feet so that I temporarily traded them with Cornelius Mersereau, one of my companions, for a pair of English shoes that had been captured from a blockade runner, bound for the Confederacy. There is no use talking, nothing is as good as low, flat broad-soled shoes for marching.

But I only intended the exchange to be temporary, till after we had concluded the march. Alas, Mersereau was killed in the next battle, and his feet swelled so that I could not pull off the boots, and they were buried with him at Chancellorsville."

- Joseph E. Crowell, The Young Volunteer: The Everyday Experience of a Soldier Boy in the Civil War (Patterson, N.J.: Joseph E. Crowell, 1906) p. 354


Eric

[NewHopeChurch]

I will quote and cite this when not at work (I believe I most recently read it in volume 2 of Foote's narrative), but before the Federal withdrawal from Fredricksburg many of the Union dead below Marye's Heights were stripped after nightfall so that their warmer clothing could be used by the freezing Confederates. Also I recall something from the same battle where a southerner tried to remove a shoe from a fallen Federal. After the man, now discovered to be sleeping, raised his head indignantly at the disturbance, the rebel lowered the man's leg, saying "beg your pardon, sir. I thought you'd gone above." or something to that effect.

Of course, you can't forget Jeb Stuart's capture of Pope's uniform in retribution for losing his hat. :-p

[Joe Walker]

John Worsham of the 21st Virginia "picked up" several Yankee haversacks during the War, two of which were directly off the battlefield from dead yankees- from which he ate the contents. (according to his "One of Jackson's Foot Cavalry") Need to survive + availabilty = what ever it takes. Death to many young farmers was common place when killing hogs, other livestock on the farm- not many of us can say that today. One soldier states that he became so indifferent to the dead that he thought of them as if so many dead hogs and didn't mind lying among them to sleep.


Joe Walker

[Mark Carey]

For what it's worth,

I read an account on the 64th Ohio at Shiloh. They were never put in action until the fighting was over and spent the night on the field with the dead and dying. They had also lost their packs due to the wagons getting hung up in the mud. So they robbed a bunch of blankets from the confederate dead. A group of them actually gathered around one Rebel leaning against a tree that was wrapped in a blanket slowly dying and patiently waited for him to expire before arguing over who gets his blanket! Another member of the 65th Ohio (the 64ths sister regiment in the brigade) took a blanket from one of the dead and then went to find his sgt. which he promised to share the blanket with. After he was sastified he found the sgt. he laid the blanket across the two of them and slept soundly. Only to find out the next morning that he was actually snuggled up with a dead Rebel.

Mark Carey
-64th Ohio-
-Devils own mess-

[sumter_guard]

where is it stipulated that soldiers only picked stuff up "in the heat of battle?" When an army (especially one of the Confederate armies) held the field of battle there are numerous mentions of touring the carnage after the engagement. Here is where I would think that many of those pickups would occur.

It didn't only have to happen when the minies were flying.

[jgr1974]

Lon Keim's buckle book has several photos of union men wearing CS frame type buckles!

The Mad MIck!!!

[Rob Weaver]

A soldier in the 2nd Wisconsin picked up what he only describes as a "brass mounted Confederate rifle" on the first day at Gettysburg. We're not exactly sure what he meant by that description, as there were a number of Confederate shoulder arms that involved brass furniture, nor is there any indication of how long he toted his trophy around. Pretty obvious, though, that it didn't come through any supply channel.

[Bill]

One item the Yankees picked up from the Rebs on a regular basis was their wood canteens. To use or send home as a souvenir is another question. There is a great photo of a Federal cavalryman with a Gardner pattern wood canteen strapped to his saddle in the "Canteen Book".

[jones56ga]

Howdy fellas,
Just reading this thread, and thought i'd put my .02 cents in.
My family is very fourtunate to have several letters from my 5xGreat Grandad, Marcellus A. Atkinson. He was a private in Co. G "Pinola Guards" of Cobb's Legion, Georgia troops. Co. G was formed in 1862 and sent to Virginia after a few weeks of simple training in Morgan County.

Anyway, My point-
After his first engagement he writes home:

...It was a terible sight... Men and horses scattered together so that you could not tell them apart. Although I was able to retrive a fine yankee rifle, overcoat, and napsack(sic)...

Just a neat story,
Ricky Jones

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

In "One of Jackson's Foot Cavalry" John H. Worsham of the 21st Va. Co. F makes a good reference to "battlefield pickups" or captured supplies. He mentions that during the Valley campaign to the end of the war he never paid for but one set of clothes as the rest came pretty much from the Federals, including other equipment. I don't have the book in front of me or I would post the passage, if anyone would like I will do so later.

[2ndNHDOC]

One story I have read was how the Col. of the 5th New Hampshire had wanted Springfields vice Enfields when his regiment was outfitted. At Antietam he had his men change out Enfields for Springfields there. I am at work now but when I can get to my Regimental history at home I will find the quote.

Brian Schwatka
3rd US Regulars
"Buffsticks"

[JWNathan]

Great thread, it is facinating to read all these different accounts. Great read. Would be an interesting read in book form of all different examples of the spolis of war.
-Jesse

[Pennvolunteer]

Well, this is my first post ever, but your comments caught my eye. As a 24 year Army veteran, I would tell you that soldiers will always stop to grab a good piece of gear except during intense fighting. It is their nature. As a former assistant Professor of History at West Point, I would point out to you that Jackson's attack at Chancellorsville bogged down as his soldiers stopped to loot Union camps of gear, and we see the same happen at the Battle of Camden in the American Revolution. At Second Bull Run, Jackson's soldiers pilfered Union rail cars for a whole night before falling back, in fact wrecking several supply trains. A piece of gear, better than yours, and a moment's effort, is always tempting. More importantly, both Armys practiced battlefield salvage after engagements. Whoever owned the field scavanged the remnants and QMs "recycled" useful materiel.

[Eureka Independent]

Hi Ryan,

Interesting observation. Although keep in mind the items many soldiers, (In particular Federal soldiers), Took home or "Captured" were items picked up afterthe battle. these are in evedence in Silvia & O'Donnels book on Canteens. Further the opicture of the 78th Pa on Look Out Mountant shows one man with a English Belt with snake buckle on in the lower/ front rank. It has been assumed he had picked this up from a prisoner.

In my own collection I have aConfederalte Web Belt with buckle picked up after 1st Manassas.

Now this is no excuse for a fellow to use the "I picked it up after/durring the battle" for their impression. So they don't have to purchase an item. that is just shear lazyness. BUT. If a fellow can document it for his particular impression and first person with diary accounts or an artifact specific to his unit & company portraied. It should be allowed.

There are some great examples of "Captured" Cs Gardners with carving on them both from the CS Owner on one side and on the other the carvin gof the US Soldier with the date of capture and his name.

All the best

Don S

[Todd Watts]

Welcome Pennvolunteer. It is good to have your experience on here.:) Be warned that they are gonna yell at ya for not "signing" your post though!:D:rolleyes:

You are right that troops did bog-down in attacks due to pilferring. I think the most notable example was Shiloh. Confederates ran the Federals right out of camp so fast that advancing Confederates actually pilferred cooking breakfasts along with stands of arms and gear. That slow-down quite possibly is what allowed "The Hornets' Nest" to happen later that day for if the surge had maintained the first momentum the Federals likely could not have had time to organize that resistance. Heck, that slow-down due to pilferring may be what saved the likes of Sherman and Grant to later win the war. That particular battle turned against the Confederates precisely because of the pillaging. The second day the Federals advanced back into their camps and surprised the many looting Confederates that had to quickly drop their battlefield pick-ups or be captured or shot.

At Stones River, the same thing happened as Confederates ran Federals right out of camp so fast that the Confederates often snatched a cup of hot coffee or still-frying bacon off the pan as they passed. Confederates here held those camps for 2 solid days and had ample opportunity to organize their pilferring parties to improve their equipment before retiring.

[Pennvolunteer]

Todd,
Thanks, I no more than sent the post than I noticed I didn't sign it and saw another post get yelled at for not signing. Fresh-fish error here on the site.
Your point about Shiloh is a great illustration for this discussion. I was reading Larry Daniels' book about Shiloh recently and there was discussion in there about Confederates dragging their loot back, and some having to dump it. I was just at the 145th Re-enactment and heard some of the same when I went over to the Battlefield and discussed with some others living historians.

Frank Siltman
Private
77th PA Vol Inf, Frontier Bde
Lawton, OK

[MuleyGil]

Hey Mark Carey,

Your dad says, "Hey" and for you to send him an e-mail.

Muley Gil, living in the land of endless beach and camels.

[tomp40]

One has to remember that the soldier in 19th century America was very religious.. And to take items off of a dead man may have been looked upon as a no-no.. (bad karma) With that said, anything scattered about may have been up for grabs if a soldier in the field truly needed something.

[Todd Watts]

One has to remember that the soldier in 19th century America was very religious.. And to take items off of a dead man may have been looked upon as a no-no.. (bad karma) With that said, anything scattered about may have been up for grabs if a soldier in the field truly needed something.

May be to some, but there are many accounts of "scroungers" around the fields and plenty of reports of de-clothed and de-coutered dead, especially Yankees. Heck, even the great Maj. Gen'l. Pat Cleburne was discovered laid flat as though on display but bootless, and that was a Confederate robbing one of his greatest heros of good boots.

[Sccavtrooper]

well there is an account i read of the 1st SC cavalry regiment on a raid into penn and the cavalry depo at carlise that they left looking more like union cavalry than confederate after raiding the supplies there. so i would take that as a battlefield pickup. i do think that this was more a confederate thing than a union one. the union had more stuff than they could use for the most part. the confeds use what they could get when they could. Not to say that they did not have an acceptable supply system. they just did not have the resourses of the north. so i am sure the confeds would use sky blue trouser if they needed a new pair of pants or a steel canteen if the wooden one they had was leaking. BUT i do not think you would find confed stuff on a union soldier. WHY would he do that ? why drive a ford when you can drive a porche

[Todd Watts]

That makes sense. Probably you would have found some CS stuff in and around US camps from time to time, just as a curiosity item somebody picked up and it made its way around camps. But, as soon as they were marched from the place I would bet only the smallest CS trinket would have been carried as a war-souvenier. In other words, that lice-infested gray denim coat would have remained rather than be folded up & carried in a man's knapsack. But a watch or button or something like that could easily be carried for a while. The weapons would be improved upon regardless however. When Grant took Vicksburg, for instance, his men eagerly dropped old worn out or inferior arms in favor of stands of new English (Enfield?) rifles. Grant even instructed his officers to see to it that the better CS arms replaced his ranks' inferior arms, and he "surrendered" his old junk guns to teh War Dept. there as CS-captured guns.

[tomp40]

True, to use an analogy, I think a CS soldier taking US supplies or equipment would have been akin to someone 'sticking it to the man'...in todays world.

[Roger Hansen]

A couple of items stick in my mind after reading CW books and diaries for 25 years:

* in late 1864 New Orleans General Orders were issued to Federal troops to stop wearing Rebel belt plates.
* Stonewall Jackson court martialed soldiers for picking up battlefield equipment. At Chancellorsville he place an artillery sergeant under arrest for picking up a Yankee poncho.
* In Atlanta Campaign (Sam Watkins) Confederate soldiers would strip Union prisoners as they came down the road starting with their hats.
* a soldiers of 36 Miss Inf had his new issue Yankee canteen shot thru at Corinth - he kept it as a souvenir of his first battle.
* At Shiloh the rebel army picked up masses of deserted equipment
* In the "62 Valley Campaign Stomewall ordered all Federal jackets being worn by his troops to be dyed immediately upon arriving in camp
* In 1991 Kuwait we stripped enemy equipment as we came along it for souvenirs or as curios.
Roger Hansen