British Import Shirts

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Has anyone out there looked at the original British import shirt in Echoes of Glory (or one of similiar provenance) in person? What I'm looking to know is if there was cloth reinforcements behind the button and/or butthole. I believe that there was a reinforcement under the opening vent on the front of the shirt, but have not seen the inside of an actual shirt to determine if there was anything hidden on the inside. Thanks

[Arthur Stone]

Ross,
I've only seen a reproduction of the shirt. I'm looking to make a few of them if I can get the fabric. Do you know, or any one else know where I can fine, and buy some for this project. I'm intrested in knowing the answer to your question also. Good luck with your quest!
Art

[CJDaley]

Has anyone out there looked at the original British import shirt in Echoes of Glory (or one of similiar provenance) in person? What I'm looking to know is if there was cloth reinforcements behind the button and/or butthole. I believe that there was a reinforcement under the opening vent on the front of the shirt, but have not seen the inside of an actual shirt to determine if there was anything hidden on the inside. Thanks

Yeah Ross, there is a reinforcement piece. Do you want a copy of my notes?

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Thanks for the info Chris, and I would indeed be interested in your notes.

[Iron Scout]

Ross,

I also have a few private images I can send you. Shoot me your email via PM and I'll get them sent this weekend.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[sgt sidd]

Hello it is in the Museum of Confederacy. They should have it there, in the book if it say in MOC collection they should be there. I think it is machine sewn. I have to check. Tim at S&S in Gettysburg knows more about the shirt. Sidd

[Arthur Stone]

Gent's, If you can be so kind, Would you be able to send me those pix also. It would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Art

[Richmond Depot]

I looked at that shirt about two years ago. That shirt had so much hand sewing that it was incredible. Very sturdy also. If you can accurately make and retail one for under $200.00 then my hat is off to you. In fact, I decided that it was more of a project than I wanted to deal with so I sold my fabric off to another Approved Vendor.

As an interesting side note, Selden's shirt is an excellent example of a piece with British Military acceptance markings coming in to CS useage. From postings here on the AC it seems to be commonly thought that such items would NOT have these markings.

The three hole buttons are neat also.

[Iron Scout]

Scott,

Nice comment on the marked vs unmarked English goods. My interpretation is that Huse had no problem buying surplus such as blankets, shirts, etc. when Samuel Isaac presented him with a deal. There are a lot of references to shirts in Vandiver's work too-bales and bales of them. Conversely, I've never seen a CS/English accoutrement piece with the WD and Broad Arrow. Not saying there weren't any but I think I&C, Ross and others were turning out the leathergoods specifically for the Southern market. Same pattern typically but with lower quality worksmanship as compared to those of British Ordnance standards.

Regards,

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

I have oft wondered about the provenance of the Seldon shirt, as it does seem to have the War Department broad arrow markings clearly on the front. My question has always been whether it came directly from the British government, a contractor, or was indeed surplus. I've always been kind of sado-masochistic when it comes to handsewing excessive garments, and came upon a couple of extra yards of FHW shirting from awhile back from a new comrade, and started stitching the time away. I've only looked at one old Charlie Childs copy that has to be almost twenty years old, but I really hate making copies of copies - the real article is always preferable. I thank all of you who replied , as ya'll are my eyes for this project!

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Gentlemen,

Who has the fabric & buttons for sale to make a "Selden shirt"?

Is the British Army ammunition shirt ("Selden shirt") constructed the same as the subsequently issued "grayback" ammunition shirt? The principle difference being the stripe pattern vs. the gray fabric of the two British Army shirts. My reading indicates that the "grayback" shirt was British issue during the time of WBTS & the discontinued striped fabric shirts were sold off as 'surplus' to the waring Americans.

Thanks,

[Matthew Semple]

Is the British Army ammunition shirt ("Selden shirt") constructed the same as the subsequently issued "grayback" ammunition shirt? The principle difference being the stripe pattern vs. the gray fabric of the two British Army shirts. My reading indicates that the "grayback" shirt was British issue during the time of WBTS & the discontinued striped fabric shirts were sold off as 'surplus' to the waring Americans.

The "grayback" ammunition shirt is of different construction than the striped ammunition shirt. It does not have the reinforcing material in the shoulders or the gathering along the neckline. It has a placket and a bib with a reinforcement along the bottom whereas the striped ammunition shirt does not. The dimensions of the "grayback" ammunition shirt were also drafted differently than the striped ammunition shirt. The "grayback" ammunition shirt follows more of a french cut (fitted design) whereas the striped ammunition shirt is more square in the body cut. The only similarities between the two shirts are the gussets in the body and sleeve openings and the dimensions of the cuffs and collars.

Attached is a photograph of an original "grayback" ammunition shirt housed in the Imperial War Museum in England, Catalogue No. UNI 012579. These shirts entered service during the last portion of the Crimean War and were standard British issue until WWI. Most British units were already wearing the "grayback" ammunition shirt at the outbreak of the American Civil War; however, some units in the British Empire were still wearing the striped British Army ammunition shirt up into the mid-1860s.

The "grayback" ammunition shirts were not sold as surplus and there are no records of them entering the United States during the American Civil War. The striped ammunition shirts ("Seldon shirt") were already discontinued and were sold as surplus by the British government. The main question is to whom? Did contractors in Great Britain purchase them as surplus and then sell them to the Confederacy? Or did the British Government directly sell them as surplus to the Confederate Government?

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Mr. Semple,

Thanks for your help with the ammunition shirt question.

Wish I lived closer to museum housing the "Selden shirt" in order to obtain detailed construction notes. I have a keen interest to make one of these over engineered British ammunition shirts.

Anyone else out there know of a source for the striped shirt material?

Regards,

[Knapsack Matt]

I agree does anyone know who or where to get the material?

Matt

[Matthew Semple]

The Museum of the Confederacy offers a data sheet for the "Seldon shirt". It has construction information and measurements. It also gives details of the inspectors marks and stamp. They are $30 for non-members and $15 for members of the museum. Call the museum and ask to be connected to the curator in charge of the data sheets.

I have been searching over the past year for the correct striped material and can't seem to find anyone who has it available. Pat Kline (Family Heirloom Weavers) used to make it but has gotten out of the direct sales business. They still conduct commission weaving for a minimum of 100 yards if you provide the raw materials (yarn, thread...). It sounds like there might be an interest in this due to the number of people wanting this material (myself included). Unfortunately, I don't have the time needed to take on another major project like that. Does anyone want to take the lead on such a project?

[Edwin Carl Erwin]

Yeah Ross, there is a reinforcement piece. Do you want a copy of my notes?

Mr. Daley,

Any chance of my getting a copy of those notes? Please send a PM. Thanks.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Thank you Mr. Semple for the head's up on the data sheets from the MOC. I am going to talk with Maryanne Zilley from EJ Thomas Mercantile who I work with producing some of their goods, and look into talking to Pat Kline. I know that she has had a longtime relationship with Pat over the years, so she knows how his contract weaving works. There does indeed look like there is some interest in this particular shirting, so I'll see what can be done here and keep everyone posted.

[Steve Acker]

Just a coment on the MOC notes, they're not as detailed as the shirt demands. A number of years ago Ted Quednau and the Hogg Mess went to the MOC a number of times to inspect the original. Ted, if he is still them is making an accurate replica. He has detailed notes and has put those notes to cloth.
Send me a PM and I can forward his phone number.

Steve Acker
ONV