Question about a bayonet scabbard.

**fire_zouave** · 05-11-2008, 08:16 PM

Hello,
So I have no idea what kind of scabbard this is. I found it at a flea market with an unmarked Enfield bayonet in it. If anyone has any idea, it would be appreciated.
Thanks!

**August77** · 05-11-2008, 09:12 PM

S & S Firearms sells them as:

M1879/83 WIN HOTCHKISS BAYONET SCABBARD. Black Leather...................................45.00

I'm assuming for the Winchester-Hotchkiss Rifle .45-70 bayonets??? In any event, definitely post-CW.

**ACo.** · 05-12-2008, 11:27 AM

It is European, either French or German, I think the former. Oh, and S&S has been selling them with that description for years. Where they got it I don't know. Are there any markings?

**August77** · 05-12-2008, 12:14 PM

It is European, either French or German, I think the former. Oh, and S&S has been selling them with that description for years. Where they got it I don't know.

Interesting, do you think the date they placed on them is still correct? There seems to be a lot of these scabbards left around, I wonder if it was one of the big surplus houses (Bannerman's, Stokes Kirk, White) that brought them in for some reason. I've got a pile of these scabbards that are stamped on the body with numbers. Definitely a well constructed scabbard seeing as it had a ring at the throat attached to a rod that ran the length of the tube and the other end was the finial.

**fire_zouave** · 05-12-2008, 04:41 PM

The Enfield bayonet fits perfectly into the scabbard. I don't know if that means it is original to the scabbard though. If the bayonet is original to the scabbard my assumption would be that it is a Spanish scabbard and bayonet esp., considering how unscarce they are and the quantity of Spanish Enfields that were made.
But then again, maybe S&S is right. I'd be interested to know if S&S can document their assertion.

**Tim Prince** · 05-12-2008, 05:09 PM

The majority of items like that in the S&S catalog are old Bannerman stock (yes some of it is still around) and they are probably using the Bannerman identification. Of course, we all know that Bannerman was not always correct when labeling an item.

My understanding is that it is a European scabbard from 1870's-80's, but I don't remember from which country.

If a regular P-1853 Enfield blade fits it correctly, then it cannot be for a Spanish Enfield, as every M-1857 Spanish Enfield bayonet that I have had (four in the last couple of years) had a blade approximately 1" longer than a P-1853.

Usually, these scabbards show up with P-1853 socket bayonets that have been modified by cutting the socket and widening it sufficiently to fit an US M-1816/22 musket. The locking ring is also replaced and had a thumbscrew tension device, instead of the typical flat head screw. Supposedly, these bayonets were made up by Bannerman to fit the huge quantity of US M-1816/22 muskets that he had in inventory without accompanying bayonets. Apparently these were at least somewhat popular purchases after the war for military schools (and other schools I guess) for drill purposes. It's hard to scan e-bay or a Civil War show without turning up one or two of these modified bayonets with this scabbard.

I hope this helps.