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  1. #1
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    Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    My former first Sgt. is reforming our company that died a few years ago. He is very knowledgeable in proper drilling, giving commands and the execution of said commands. But as far as uniform issuing and who is selling top quality uniforms, he isn't as knowledgeable. He was told that all USCT were issued frock coats because there was a surplus of them due to the fact that white troops did not like them and that the only ways that the USCT would have worn sack coats were through private purchase or if the frock was worn out and cut down. I myself have dug into proper uniforms for my various impressions so I no this isn't entirely true. I have seen many photos of USCT in sack coats and many photos of white troops in frocks. I would like to find the records of what my unit was issued to present it to him so our unit can wear what we are supposed to and when.

    Welcome to the forum, Mr. Williams. A cardinal rule of the forum is that all members must sign their posts with their full name. - Silas Tackitt, one of the moderators
    Last edited by Silas; 08-21-2011 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Standard signature violation warning.

  2. #2
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    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Williams View Post
    My former first Sgt. is reforming our company that died a few years ago. He is very knowledgeable in proper drilling, giving commands and the execution of said commands. But as far as uniform issuing and who is selling top quality uniforms, he isn't as knowledgeable. He was told that all USCT were issued frock coats because there was a surplus of them due to the fact that white troops did not like them and that the only ways that the USCT would have worn sack coats were through private purchase or if the frock was worn out and cut down. I myself have dug into proper uniforms for my various impressions so I no this isn't entirely true. I have seen many photos of USCT in sack coats and many photos of white troops in frocks. I would like to find the records of what my unit was issued to present it to him so our unit can wear what we are supposed to and when.
    This is an interesting question. You might find references to the actual clothing issued to your regiment in several sources, including personal diaries and letters, and the letter and order books of the particular regiment you portray, which latter should be in the National Archives. Which regiment is it, by the way? A search on Google Books or Cornell University's "Making of America" site could turn something up in ORs, or in a memoir or regimental history.

    For two reasons I suspect that your sergeant may be mistaken about frock coats. First, by the time recruitment for the USCT got well underway, the Quartermaster Department had ramped up clothing production enough to produce surpluses in most everything, so there would have been no need to foist frock coats off on black troops to save sack coats for whites.

    To illustrate, Series III, Volume 4 of the ORs, on pp. 886-887, lists both the number of principal clothing and camp and garrison equipage items issued during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1864, as well as those remaining on hand at the end of that period.

    The number of coats, jackets, and blouses issued came to, respectively, 218,000, 635,655, and 2,099,684. During this period the U.S. Army had about 850-900,000 men in the field (based on Livermore). More coats were issued than men who served in the USCT, and three times as many coats, jackets, or blouses as men in the army. While many would have been worn out in service, the numbers on hand at the end of the year came to 351,152 coats, 220,796 jackets, and 530,701 blouses.

    Interestingly, these numbers do show a certain reluctance to draw coats rather than jackets or blouses. Only 40% of available coats were drawn, vs. about 80% of available blouses. So far then, your sergeant has a point. Still, as you state, plenty of photographic evidence exists to show frock coats on white troops and sack coats on blacks. There's no basis I know of for thinking race had anything to do with it. In fact, the government continued to both issue and procure additional frock coats, and by the end of the war the surplus had risen to more than 400,000 (ORs, Series III, Vol. 5, p. 278)

    Part of the reason for the reluctance to draw frock coats might have been cost -- during this same period uniform coats cost $7.00 vs. $3.12 for a lined blouse and $2.35 for an unlined one (G.O. 364, November 12, 1863). The government didn't just give these clothes away. The cost came from the clothing allowances and pay of the men.

    This brings us to the second reason I think your sergeant may be mistaken. For much of this time the pay of the USCT was unfairly held to $10 a month, with $3 deducted for clothing. They did not receive the full pay to which they were entitled (for a private, $13 a month PLUS $3.50 clothing allowance up to the spring of 1864; $16 pay and $4 clothing thereafter) until, I think, towards the end of 1864, and even then it was restricted to men who were free at the beginning of the war (I base this on a quick glance at Higginson's book).

    Simply put, the soldiers of the USCT were harder pressed to pay for their clothes than white troops. Not only would they have had even more personal incentive to draw blouses instead of coats, but once you add in all the other clothing expenses they faced, the quartermasters could very well have lost money by making the troops take items they couldn't pay for.
    Michael A. Schaffner

  3. #3
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    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Now I have seen a few photos of USCT troops wearing other types of garments, but the vast majority are seen wearing dress coats.
    Robert Johnson

    "Them fellers out thar you ar goin up against, ain't none of the blue-bellied, white-livered Yanks and sassidge-eatin'forrin' hirelin's you have in Virginny that run atthe snap of a cap - they're Western fellers, an' they'll mighty quick give you a bellyful o' fightin."



    In memory of: William Garry Co.H 5th USCC KIA 10/2/64 Saltville VA.

  4. #4
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    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    I think the photos break fairly evenly on the LOC site. Here are a few that show either sack coats or a combination. The camp photo is pretty fuzzy, but I believe it shows a couple enlisted men in sacks toward the right. The Fort Slocum photo focuses on officers, but there seem to be a couple of enlisted personnel in sacks in the background, though they could be servants:

    http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...2003004888/PP/

    http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...2003004849/PP/

    http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...em/2004673345/

    http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collecti...2003000948/PP/
    Michael A. Schaffner

  5. #5
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    Ruins of Tredegar
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    Lightbulb Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Check out Company E, 4th USCT at Fort Lincoln (LC-DIG-cwpb-04294):

    In total, there are twenty-seven men present (all of whom are visible). Rank structure of the front is (left to right):
    First sergeant/ corporal/ sergeant/ corporal/ private (3)/ corporal/ private (5)/ corporal/ camp attendant

    Two are wearing short jackets (both are NCOs), the rest are visibly and presumable wearing frocks. Only the #2 guy and the camp attendant are without shoulder scales. In the front rank, eleven have cartridge box belts (five with the breast plates, six without) and two do not.

    You may have also noticed the abundance of rings. The sergeants, one corporal, and three privates have pinky rings on their left hand. Two wear rings on the left ring finger. Records indicate that half of the 4th were free, half slave. So, that may be an interesting indication of marriage laws for African-Americans.

    Cool figures=

    27 men in total
    (front rank)
    2 sergeants
    4 corporals
    8 privates
    1 camp attendant

    2 short jackets
    25 dress frocks
    25 pairs of shoulder scales/ 2 without
    (front rank)
    11 cartridge box belts/ 2 without
    5 breast plates/ 6 without

    6 pinky rings
    2 wedding bands

    The 4th USCT would go on to fight at New Market Heights and the attack on Fort Harrison during the Bermuda Hundred and Richmond-Petersburg Campaign 1864; the first Union troops to enter Richmond in April 1865.
    Jason C. Spellman
    Skillygalee Mess

    "Who wouldn't gladly risk his life in arduous service on the Texas coast? Show me the man who wouldn't, and I'll shoot him. But, alas, a stern and unaccomodating fate denies the crown to my ambition that such a service would be; it is only here in Virginia I may hope to win laurels." --Joseph B. Polley, Letters to Charming Nellie

  6. #6
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    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Now, contrast that photo to black soldiers of the same corps at Fort Harrison (Fort Burnham) in October 1864 (LC-DIG-cwpb-01950):

    Most appear to be wearing blouses, at least, for fatigue duty.
    Jason C. Spellman
    Skillygalee Mess

    "Who wouldn't gladly risk his life in arduous service on the Texas coast? Show me the man who wouldn't, and I'll shoot him. But, alas, a stern and unaccomodating fate denies the crown to my ambition that such a service would be; it is only here in Virginia I may hope to win laurels." --Joseph B. Polley, Letters to Charming Nellie

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
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    Woodbine, Maryland
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    310

    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Jason,
    Does the guy on the far right in the picture you last posted have on a pair of spurs? It almost looks like he is wearing spurs. The guy on the far left can be seen with infantry equipment, ie bayonet scabbard. I wonder if the guy is sitting on hitching rail for horses at the fort and what these soldiers's duties were. Would their role or duty have any impact on a sack coat vs. a frock?
    Rob Bruno
    1st MD Cav
    http://1stmarylandcavalry.com

  8. #8
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    Dec 2003
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
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    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Jason, thanks for sharing those. I think the contrast between the Fort Lincoln and Fort Harrison photos also establish the importance of context. The latter photo shows troops during the war; according to theWiki page for the 4th USCT, the Fort Lincoln photo was taken in November 1865, when the unit was in garrison (and after that whole nasty pay issue was settled): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Uni...antry_Regiment

    This blog has a little more info on the negative and a pretty neat discussion of a great photograph: http://deadconfederates.wordpress.co...ergeant-henry/
    Michael A. Schaffner

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Jeeoooorgia
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    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    Schnapps, That is a great link to the 4th USCT link. I don't want to get too far off topic here, but the Henry brothers discussion is stellar. Again great link. Back to the garrison vs field uniform conversation
    Herb Coats
    O.C.N. & Moderator
    Armory Guards/WIG

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    GETTYSBURG, PENNSYLVANIA
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    332

    Re: Frock Coats vs. Sack Coats for USCT's

    http://www.ohiocivilwar150.org/omeka/items/show/1802

    Bigger Image from Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:12...r_Infantry.jpg

    Here is a link to the 127th OVI image from the Ohio Historical Society. Shows them in Delaware, Ohio. It appears that this company is wearing Fatigue Blouses.

    If you are doing the 127th OVI AKA: 5th USCT then there should be some local information as well. As you may know, the 1st Sgt. from Co. I, was Robert Pinn, recipient of the Medal of Honor. He was from Perry Township, and is most commonly associated with Massillon.
    Contact Chris Craft at the Massillon Museum....he knows more about what lies in Stark County Museums than any else I know.

    McKinley Museum, I can tell you for sure has very little on the 5th. You may however, find some genealogy folders related to former members that may give you some idea. In addition, go read the Stark County Democrat and the Ohio Repository at the Stark County Library. They are both a wealth of information when it comes to camp life, uniforms descriptions, and general comments about life in the army. Late 63-64 may lead you to some more sources.

    You may want to see if you can get your hand on "Eagles on Their Buttons: A Black Infantry Regiment in the Civil War" which is a Regimental History of the 5th USCT.

    I honestly think the image from Sandusky St. in Delaware Ohio really answers your question though....or at least helps for one company.
    Todd Morris

    Proprietor, Morris & Company Historical Clothiers

    Morris Clothiers Web Site

    Canton Lodge #60 F&AM Canton, Ohio


    In Memorium: Pvt. Simon Morris, Co. G, 78th OVI Died: April 14, 1863 Jefferson Barracks, Missouri
    Joseph Rezin Thompson, 1st W.Va. Light Artillery
    Azville W. Lindsey, Co. G, 12th W.Va. Volunteer Infantry

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