RD jackets and trousers, what were the most common colours?

[Secesh]

Juan,
You may also want to go on the Museum of the Confederacy website and order the Catalogue of Uniforms, which details all the CS garments in their collection, types of material for the body, linings, and sleeves, types of buttons, etc. Best regards, Tom

[David Fox]

At the risk of being a tad wide of the mark originally posited in this thread, the following just came to my attention in Mingus's "Flames Beyond Gettysburg" (Savas Beatie, publisher, 2011). It's new to me. One James Gall, an obviously intelligent and observant civilian, wrote of Gordon's Confederate infantry heading west through York, Pennsylvania, on their way to Gettysburg, 30 June, 1863,the exact time frame of which the original post is concerned. Wrote Mr. Gall:

" Physically, the men looked about equal to the generality of our own troops, and there were fewer boys among them. Their dress was a wretched mixture of all cuts and colors. There was not the slightest attempt at uniformity in this respect. Every man seemed to have put on whatever he could get ahold of, without regard to shape or color. I noticed a pretty large sprinkling of blue pants among them, some of those, doubtless, left by Milroy in Winchester. Their shoes, as a general thing, were poor, some of the men were entirely barefooted. Their equipments were light as compared with those of our men. They consisted of a thin woolen blanket, coiled and slung from the shoulder in the form of a sash, a haversack slung from the opposite shoulder, and a cartridge box. The whole cannot weigh more than twelve or fourteen pounds. Is it strange then, that with such light loads they should be able to make longer and more rapid marches than our men? The marching of the men was irregular and ill-kept. Their whole appearance was greatly inferior to that of our soldiers."

[max]

Thanks for the info Tom, another one for my little library.

David, it’s a very interesting description especially the reference of the use of the blue trousers, however the CS units could vary widely from one to the other, but I think probably it’s a good description of one of the very worn units.

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

I would also add to the mix...

That a number of bark, root, nut natural dyes tend to dye dirty tannish-gray. the enxt level up is the use of mordants to change the color. Oh, for example unmordanted logwood dyes "brown" while logwood mordanted with iron dyes gray.
The other side of that coin is that thse "vegetable" dyestuffs tend not to be light-fast, or color-fast. Where color-fastness comes into play is that yarn or yardage might have been dyed an ideal gray and was when it left the dyebath, exposure ot light and use would turn the gray into "dirty" brownish tans.
(Where that complicates our research and knowledge is that "when" that happened is hard to access. For exmaple, the discussion that "Emergency Blankets" may not have been initially tan or brownish tan but actually iorn mordanted logwood dyed gray and what we see as brown now may be the result of decades and decades of degradation fading and color shifting.

And last, white and black sheep. Weaver and dyer C.J. Wilde used to tease me saying there are only two colors of sheep- "white and black." However, white can be some shade of white or gray. And black can be some shade of black to some shade of brown to some shade of tan. Sooo, depending on the source for the "wool" it can be natural white to gray needing dyeing (The Confederates did not always dye). It can be blackish. And it can be naturally brown in its undyed state so that a garment was brown to the eye without being dyed.

(While we use our clothing only a small fraction of the time a CW used theirs, we do get an idea of how textiles and dyestuffs act and react over time and use when we use fabrics dyed the same way rather than use modern aniline dyestuffs to simulate Period vegetable dyes.)

Curt
Dabbler Dyer Mess

[max]

Thanks for the very interesting information Curt. One of the things you say it’s “(The Confederates did not always dye)” Maybe are you saying dyeing the uniforms was more common than making them in natural colour? Are more surviving dyed examples than natural coloured ones?

[GenuineInformation]

Mr. Heidenreich,

Without attempting to speak for Curt, I will attempt to address your question. Based on discussions I have had with Ben Tart, it is frequently difficult to tell whether a surviving garment was originally dyed or not. Due to the "fugitive" nature of vegetable dyes, as well as the composition of period fabrics commonly used in domestically-produced CS garments (jeans-a 2/1 twill weave, cassimere-a 2/2 twill weave, satinette-usually a 3/1 or 4/1 weave, and plains-a 1/1 or square weave, are all blends comprising a woolen weft and a cotton warp), the woolen threads of the dyed cloth may oxidize differently than do the cotton threads. Over 150 years' time, this gives an appearance not unlike undyed cloth, especially that woven on a tan or brown cotton warp.

Conversely, years of accumulated dirt may give cloth that was originally not dyed a more regular, if brownish, appearance, tending to cause a modern observer to speculate that it was originally dyed, and then oxidized.

In sum, while we know that the Confederates did dye some cloth to try to achieve a gray, or at least regular, color, we also know that some garments were cut from cloth that had never been dyed. Trying to determine actual ratios, though, based on extant museum pieces, can become very difficult due to the factors noted in the previous paragraph.

If you are planning to purchase garments, I recommend researching first the regiment or brigade you intend to represent with your impression. See whether there are any descriptions of how those soldiers looked at the time period you are going for. If so, try to find cloth that bears a reasonable resemblance to that description.

If you cannot find an original account, I recommend asking your messmates or NCOs or Officers of your unit for their advice. Lastly, if you do not trust their (lack of) research, you may wish to make a choice that gives you a "generic" garment. Given the multiple descriptions of Confederates as wearing clothing of irregular cut and color, this may end up also being authentic for your desired impression, even if no solid documentation to your unit of interest is available. If that's the case, then you cannot go wrong calling up any of the sellers of fabric in our hobby--Wambaugh & White, Charlie Childs, Ben Tart, and the gentleman in New Jersey, and asking their opinions. While I am not sure of Charlie Childs' current inventory, Wambaugh & White, Ben Tart, and the gentleman in New Jersey all either currently sell or will shortly be selling naturally dyed cloth. Undyed cloth is also widely available from those sources, and probably others that I am leaving out.

Best regards,
Joseph Knight

[max]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer me. I see that the issue is a lot more complex than I initially thought (which I must say I really like).

Mr. Heidenreich,

If you cannot find an original account, I recommend asking your messmates or NCOs or Officers of your unit for their advice.

The problem I face is that I have no NCO's or Officers to ask, and I have been put in charge of deciding the uniformity and equipment for the whole group. We are starting from scratch and to my knowledge so far there are no groups of American Civil War in Spain. So with your permission gentlemen I will be an avid reader of this forum, and the books you have recommended me, and occasionally I will make some dumb question if I can’t find the answer using the "search" button.

Best regards.

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo!

"Thanks for the very interesting information Curt. One of the things you say it’s “(The Confederates did not always dye)” Maybe are you saying dyeing the uniforms was more common than making them in natural colour? Are more surviving dyed examples than natural coloured ones?"

Herr Joseph has it well covered.

But I would just add that the scientific or chemical analysis needed to determine answers to dyeing versus natural are near never (use of a Universal so noted) likely to be used because it is not relative enough to submit rare artifacts to destructive processes and evasive tests.
(Although there are rare exceptions such as the research a number of years ago done on mordanted logwood dyed blue thread that had turned brownish.)

I hate to bring it up because the term had been beaten and battered so out of shape that it no longer had decent meaning... but sometimes we cannot put too fine a point on what we don't know- and sometimes in the absence of detailed research and documentation have to chose among what may have been PEC (Plain, Everyday, and Common). Meaning we have to choose from the lesser of teo evils in the absence of R & D to make a possible, plausible, and otherwise (relatively) "safe" choice. Such as putting a unit in time and place in say "RD-III's" because they were an ANV unit and we have documentation for say British Army Cloth RD-III's for the time and place of other units.
Is it right? No. Could it be right? Maybe. But it is "less wrong" than say something from a Deep South western depot not known to have been used in the ANV in 1864. Etc., etc.

Curt

[The Chesterfield Rifleman]

Most Richmond depot Type II's were made from Casssimere cloth. Popular dyes include Logwood, Sumac and Walnut or more commonly known as Butternut. There are surviving examples of RD II's made from jean, satinett and varigated or Tigerstripe wool. Common buttons found on these jackets include general service Federal eagle, English import or Script I and wood. Osnaburg was a very common lining on these jackets. Towards the end of the war, most jackets were made from English Army Cloth. If you want to know more about the Richmond depot jacket's history and design, take a look at the Company of Military Historians well written article on all three types.



All the Best,

[max]

Thank you for the info, Curt and James.

James I’m talking from memory now, but I believed Jeancloth was the most common material for RDII in 1863 being cassimere the second one, until Kersey material entered in great quantities in the end of 1863. Am I wrong?

Regards.