Saddle shields, 101

[GAR]

Wow. Research is making me question something I thought I had learned years ago.

First off, I've seen shields that only have "Allegheny Arsenal" stamped on them. I never thought much about it before, because mine reads "12 INCH SEAT" which is pretty clear, at least from a military POV, but now I have reason to ask "What seat size is that?". Wait, it gets better.

I have also seen shields stamped with either a 1, 2, or a 3 above the words "Allegheny Arsenal". I thought the "1" stamp was for the 11" seat, but I just picked up an older Carrico made McClellan with the Allegheny "1" stamp that seems to be the same seat size as my 12" McClellan. Huh? Okay, time for a google search! That revealed a picture of one that was stamped with a 4. OMG. Unless this is a regimental number or something that was done post-war, I'm really getting flummoxed.

So I come here, and rather than put my confusion on display, I do an AC search and find a thread from 2004 that not only did not explain the basic nomenclature, it ended with someone stating that shields stamped "11 INCH SEAT", "11 1/2 INCH SEAT", "12 INCH SEAT", weren't used on CW saddles at all and were not introduced until the 1880's or possibly even later. Really?!? Since the thread ended without anyone ever contradicting that statement, and with google and AC searches just adding to my confusion, I find myself chagrinned, kepi in hand, having to ask if someone can please explain the basics of saddle shields to me.

Then, I would like to also know how to measure a Mac, as I tried that on my 12" seat and couldn't find a measurement of 12".

My brain hurts.

Gary

[J.H.Berger]

Gary 11" seat shields etc. WERE used during the CW. My original Demarest made tree has such a shield on it. The seat size was supposed to be the distance between pommel and cantle at their base.

[Choatecav]

Gary,

I agree with Jan's statement. The "pommel ornament" (as it was called with the M1859 and '64 models. It was not called a "shield" until the M1874 thru 1904 versions) did have the size stamped on them with the '59 and '64 models. The ornament on the '59's and '64's was approx 2" high where as the shield on the 1904's measure only about 1 3/4" high. But, thru all of these, the size stamping was used.

Hope this helps,

Mark

[GAR]

Thank you. I learned that what I thought was true, was true. However, I also learned that for the CW, Pommel Shields should be referred to as Pommel Ornaments. Good info.

I just wanted to make sure because sometimes, when I'm dead certain I am right about something, I have been proven wrong. I'd have the same reaction if Steven Hawkins said that it is all an optical illusion, the world really is flat. "Really?!", with the exclamation point representing disbelief.

If you don't mind, let's explore a bit deeper into this.

I've also seen pommel ornaments that are stamped "12 IN SEAT" with the "CH" dropped. Was this the signature of a specific arsenal?

What about the Allegheny markings? Plain, 1, 2, 3, and 4? I'm "dead certain" there were only three seat sizes, not 5. But I do believe some Generals, such as Winfield Scott, had the clout to have larger, special order saddles made.

The "1" represents 11", doesn't it? What does the un-numbered one represent?

NOTE: I know that many answers can be found by a search of this site. But sometimes the answers found can be wrong. Thanks for the clarification.

Gary

[Choatecav]

Well, I have been outside clearing out fence rows and came in to eat a bite and found out that it is 103 degrees outside, so I might as well do some forum work.

As to the seat sizes, the standard 11, 11½ and 12 were the norm, but by 1865 the Ordnance Bureau Price and Classification List was listing four sizes. The 11, 11 ½, 12 and 12 ½ inch seats. When the larger size was introduced is not really clear, at least by anything I have found.

Now, as to the usage of Numbers 1, 2, etc. to designate size, we can look at the Allegheny Arsenal pattern. From 1861 thru 1863 the ornament/shield for the AA's all had “Allegheny Arsenal date” clearly stamped. Above that was stamped single numerals. “1” was for 11 inch, “2” for 11 ½ inch, etc. After 1863, the AA ornament/shield changed and dropped the "Allegheny Arsenal" reference and reflected only the size so it would have had “1” or “2”, etc. in most cases (there are some examples of blank ornaments).

While we are getting to this level of detail, you might find it interesting that the mortise cutouts (for coatstrap insertion) on the AA's had rounded ends rather than squared off ones.

There are some other subtle differences with the AA M1859 saddles (ie. Oval brass ID plate, AA stamp on the off-side skirt, etc.) but that is for another day.

Well, I don't want to go back to the fence rows, but duty calls.........

regards,
Mark

[GAR]

Thank you, Mark.

Wow. I only hope I can retain some of that. It proves that no one knows everything, but it also proves that Mark sure knows a lot.

Nothing about the IN vs INCH? Sorry, but we might as well cover it all.

None of this explains why the AA 1, 11" saddle I picked up seems to be the same size as my 12 INCH, but I can hazard three possible answers:

The "Boy, I'm smart" answer is because they are both single produced reproductions and by nature, lack the uniformity that usually comes with mass production.

The "common sense" answer is the wrong ornament was put on by mistake.

The "Boy, do I feel dumb" answer is that it IS an 11" seat and I'll only realize how small it really is as I'm riding into a battle.

[J.H.Berger]

You have to keep in mind that there are only 11 1/2" repro shields out there and the AA shields from Weaver which have a square slot and the wrong stamping style. There are no authentic 11" and 12" CW shields only 1904 ones. Burgess had 1st class AA sields but is no more. So the saddle tree as reproduction must not necessaryly match the shield. On the other side the saddle trees from Marcus who made most of the tress in the past are not 100% authentic anyway.