Progressive? Hardcore??

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

Looking beyond the denotation and connotation, as well as personal and collective philosophy that MIGHT be being shared on the "How Do Your Rate Your Impression? thread...

To continue a discussion...

If 69% of the responding membership lists themselves as "Progressive" and
22% as "Hardcore-"

Should we be thinking about changing the name of the AC Forum to "The Progressive Campaigner- A Website for the Progressive Civil War Reenactor?"
As well as changing the purpose, mission, goals and objectives of the AC Forum to better match and attempt to meet the needs of this "majority membership??"

Please do not read or find anything negative, accusatory, between the lines here, or look for an agenda, let alone a criticism or a "call to question" here!

I am just trying to promote discussion on a quiet Friday night, and carry another thread forward... :-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Lone_Rebel87]

I think that we should leave it as the A/C because it is helping those progressives who are trying to become more authentic and ever slowly reaching forward..Myself being one of them I think that it is good for it to stay and we be able to ask questions of the 22% who say they are hardcore to help further our own impressions.

It's fine I say.

Jordan Davis

Tis a kind of quiet night though isn't it??

[FriendlyFire104]

What is hardcore, progressive, mainstream and farb? A book I have in my possession titled "Reliving the Civil War, A Reenactor's handbook" R. Lee Hadden suggested these definitions to the factions of reenacting.

Hardcores: the ultra-authentic, who would take authenticity to extremes, trying to attain as close to 100% accuracy as possible. Many prefer the term "progressive"

Progressive: new term for hard-core reenactors, it implies someone who is going further into research and correct impression

Mainstream: (is not listed)

Farb: nonperiod, non-authentic equipment or the person who uses it, also known as “cowboy or polyester soldier". variations on the term include, farbette, barble, farb-fest, farb-o-thon. (Then it goes on to explain the origin of the word)

This book suggests that their is no difference between hardcores and progressive and fails to believe in the existence of "mainstream"

Bob,

Upon registration with our forum, you promised to abide by our Rules & Regulations (http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034), yet you ingored one of our most basic rules by not signing your post - this is your FIRST WARNING.

Scott McKay, moderator
Authentic Campaigner Forums

[Andrew Jarvi]

I think it should stay AC. Being a progressive re-enactor I have learned greatly from those of you that are hard core. Though I must admit I will always consider myself progressive because as you all have proven there are sooooo many ways to improve one's impression. One thing I am working on other than my kit is to shed some pounds. Though I will always be my height and be built like a lumberjack, the gut needs to go.

Respectfully
Andrew Jarvi
Capt. 5th USCT

[JimConley]

I think the forums are fine the way they are. Granted, we have had many new comers lately and they ask the same questions, but things like that are to be expected when word gets out and people find the interest in authenticity.
As far as the poll goes, I'm torn (Hardcore interior, Progressive exterior). I would rate myself progressive for a couple of reasons, but hardcore on some others. I have the hardcore spirit and mentality, but obstacles come into play. First and foremost, as a poor college boy, I gather gear when I have the chance. I've made some great purchases, but am never satisfied with my impression. Also, money halts 7 and 10 hour drives to Virginia and the deep south for good events most of the time. Not too many good events in Kentucky (But we've got Shaker Village this fall!) I would say overall, I'm progressive. Until I can be happy with my appearance and experience, I'll be progressing. I think that many may have run into some of the same?

[PrivateRBDavis]

Yeah, I would agree with the idea that the forum gives us a standard to aim for. Without that strict standard, it would be easier to fall into complacency. Speaking for myself, had I not found this forum I would still be floudering in my former mindset which was "frustrated mainstreamer". I'll always consider myself progressive and will never be 100% contented with my impression. But here, I'm amongst comrades whose knowledge I trust and whose advice I can take seriously.

Also, to Bob... The Hadden book is a good place to get some basic information and some laughs (the chapter with the list of "questions from spectators" is hilarious), but I don't consider it a progressive book. Even when I was mainstream, I winced at the notion of carrying Imodium in my haversack or Gatorade in my dipper.

[BarryDusel]

I like the title of the forum. It serves as a magnet to those searching for the "truth". "Authentic-Campaigner" has a certain panache. I'd suggest that we never even entertain the thought of altering it. Yet, IMO, the last authentic HC campaigner departed this earth physically over 44 years ago. Yet they do continue to live on in our memory and because of that they will never die. So it should be for us to perpetuate them forever. Yet it cheapens their memory if any of us think that we could ever walk in their shoes.
That said.
While there are many of us that would like to consider ourselves 'Hard Core" . Are we really? Think about the words. What's HC? HC is someone so dedicated that they will stop at nothing to do it right. Progressive, to me, the connotation is that this is someone who is evolving and always seeking to better themslves and to better educate. Every HC I've ever known, from day 1 of the movement , has evolved. At 1 time CD Jarnagin was considered by many to be a provider of goods for the HC community. Before that many considered themslves HC only if they were wearing original "goodies" off of Bannermans Island. Today, I don't think anyone who considers themslf to be HC would even consider wearing "original items" Many that consider themself to be a "really"good impression won't even carry an original firearm. Because our thought process now dictates that if we are to portray a soldier , in our case. 1861/1865. Then our overall impression should be of a as issued ACW "GI". There just aren't too many firearms that meet the criteria of a recently issued item that we could afford , monetarily or otherwise, to carry in the field. I guess what we need then to relieze, IMO, after 30 + years of observation . Is that we are all progressive. Even the most'HC" are really "progressive" . We are all evolving. I relieze that while what I wear today is "the best". For the next generation it will probably be mainstream. How many of us can say we are 2nd generation and I guess even 3rd generation for this endeavour? If you are. Try to think back. I think I can safely say this. Some of our parents and Grand Parents thought that their "kits" were "Titz". Today, we laugh at the "super 8's" of the 1st NSSA shoots and the Centennial re-enactments. Yet at that time there were many who considered themsleves "HC and authentic" . My Old friend George Gorman being one of them. Yet when I think back and remember his kit. While it was cutting edge for his day. For this day , it is and would be just barely main stream .
I gotta stop now. To close.Each generation will hopefully continue the upward climb. It's up to all of us to be "progressive" so that there can always be a HC among us.

[Hank Trent]

Should we be thinking about changing the name of the AC Forum to "The Progressive Campaigner- A Website for the Progressive Civil War Reenactor?"

Words are words. (shrug)

"Authentic" was probably the most common jargon in the hobby for "historically accurate" about the time the AC forum was named, and everyone knew it could also mean "very very close to accurate, at least moreso than those other guys," Though there was not necessarily any implication that an "authentic reenactor" had any interest in improving, since he might perceive himself at the pinnacle of perfection.

But if you think about it too closely, no reenactor can be "authentic" in the sense of literally 100% "accurate." And that's not even touching the totally different meaning "authentic" has in the antique-collecting hobby.

So I think the literal meaning of "progressive" is closer to the site's mission, i.e. for reenactors who want to improve continually toward unattainable accuracy. But unfortunately the current jargon meaning of "progressive" within the hobby is "someone with an impression a little better than mainstream but not as good as some," which doesn't fit the site's mission.

If a group is influential enough, it can claim its own personal definitions. Because they were big enough and old enough to do it, the NAACP has stuck with "colored" through numerous changes in the meaning of their word. I can remember when it was considered an insult almost right up there with the "n" word, and you wouldn't dare use it *except* as part of "NAACP," but now it's back in favor again.

I think the AC forum is influential enough to claim that the definition of "authentic" is whatever the forum says it is when they use it in their title, regardless of how the literal meaning or connotation of "authentic" comes and goes in the hobby. If the forum says it means "closer to accuracy than most and continually trying to improve," then that's what it does.

But what about "campaigner"? We haven't even touched that can of worms. I'd guess it's another throwback left from the days when the assumption was that every reenactment was about a battle, so "authentic" reenactors slept without tents while farbs/mainstreamers set up (cough) "garrison camps" with no regard for historical context or even an accurate depiction of a garrison.

Again, I think the AC forum is big enough to claim that the definition of "campaigner" is what the forum says it is, and if it means, "reenactors who adapt their living conditions to the specific historic situation at the event," then by golly, "authentic" reenactments of garrison situations, prisons, mustering, recruiting, etc., are all by definition "campaigner" events and on-topic for the forum.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[10nycav]

I'd say, leave it as is. By definition progressives are trying to progress towards a more authentic impression. Might as well set the sights high. (I also suspect that some of the "progressives" actually would fit quite well into the ranks of the hardcores/authentics but because they realize this is a never ending journey and there is always room for improvement, they would hesitate to call themselves authentic/hardcore.)

Ken Morris
10th Regt of Cavalry NYSV.

[Curt Schmidt]

Hallo Kameraden!

To further the disccussion, I am going to put on the Hat of Devil's Advocate.

IMHO, the general "thrust" here, and one I fully agree with, is that "this" is a
Journey and not a Destination type of philosophy- the striving and pursuit of the Impossible State of Perfection- a direction somewhere between "here" and how we view what and how many aspects of the Civil War soldiers' (and civillians') lives we can, should, and do recreate or reexperience.

Along thos elines, because there are so many different and differeing, conflicitng and complimenting "Mental Picutures" and leels/interests/aplications/activities we tend to, usually, look to put the massive CW Reenacting and Living History Umbrella into this paradigm (Model):

F/M/C/P/H/A

But, if we say we are "Progressives" simply because we hold the view, opinion, and sometimes practice that we all students of the Past and strive to move forward/evolve/learn/grow/progress- what it ACTUALLY SAY about our Mental Picutures then?
I am a Militant Farb who was butt-stroked during a charge, and am now a self-styled and self-declared "Progressive (Farb)" as I now strive to start to move forward/evolve/learn/grow/progress toward being a "Progressive (Mainstreamer)."
I am a Farb who was struck by lightning while loading my musket in the rain, and now am a self-styled and self-declared hardcore, no, authentic!
And I find the AC Forum for the "authentic campaigner." Well, obviously, that's me!

And here comes the Devil's Advocate: Does the AC Forum have a mission,
function, purpose, charge, goal, responsibility, duty, ability, etc., etc.., to its membership to serve the needs of any F/M/C/P/H/A person soley on the basis that they self-declare and self-describe themselves as being "Progressive?"
The Devil's Advocate questions that "Progressive: is half of a two word descroption meaning little or nothing concrete or tangible oterh than a notion that one needs to learn., grow, and improve. The better term, being "Progressive What?" Which would make the paradigm:

F/PF/M/PM/C/PC/P/PP/H/PH/PA/A

Which really tells us nothing, and enables us to do nothing with the model?

So, how dare we shut down or close the posts of the PF or PM or PC person then?)

Again, as before, I am not criticizing or calling into negative question anyone does, or what we do here, or try to accomplish here- I am just trying to promote the discussion.

Is, or should, the AC Forum be then:

The Progressive Campaigner- A Website for the Progressive F/M/C/P/H/Aer?

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
Heretic Mess