Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Subdued rank placement question

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Subdued rank placement question

    The insignias that appear on the front of the jacket shoulder are also placed in the back as well, like a regular shoulder strap but without the embroidered edging. I've seen the individual rank bars embroidered on little squares of cloth or connected by the entire length of dark blue or black fabric that would have accompanied the full shoulder board. The stamped brass, false-embroidered Smith's Patent shoulder board rank bars were worn this way as well.

    I thought that I had more photos on hand showing the use of subdued rank, but I actually have more that show officers without any. Since no rank insignia may be the ultimate form of subdued insignia :D, I'll post a few pictures anyway. From left to right:

    - Captain Charles Merriman, Co. F 1st USSS,
    - Two of Captain Albert Buxton, Co. H 2nd USSS, shown with straps and also with rank bars on his collar,
    - 1st Lt. Benjamin Calef, Q.M. 2nd USSS shown in the field in late 1862 without insignia.
    - 1st Lt. J. Smith Brown, Co. A 1st USSS & Adjutant (Rick Carlile Collection),
    - 1st Lt. Gardner Clark, Co. C 1st USSS, wearing a rank circlet (Rick Carlile Collection).

    I understand that this is a biased sampling but thought the lack of rank insignia on these officers would be interesting to others.
    Last edited by GreencoatCross; 01-19-2010, 11:38 AM. Reason: Wording.
    Brian White
    [URL="http://wwandcompany.com"]Wambaugh, White, & Co.[/URL]
    [URL="https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wambaugh-White-Company/114587141930517"]https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wambaugh-White-Company/114587141930517[/URL]
    [email]brian@wwandcompany.com[/email]

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Subdued rank placement question

      Click image for larger version

Name:	2005-099.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	60.8 KB
ID:	221074 Sir, not to take away from the spirit of this thread, I came across this image in Francis T. Millers, "The Photographic History of the Civil War" with the photo's description.
      If I may, "The court-martial here pictured is that of the 2nd division, 12th army corps. It was convened at Ellis Ford, Va., in July, 1863. Such officers were especially detailed from various regiments of a division of their corps, for the purpose of judging all classes of cases, crimes, and misdemeanors against the general regulations of the army. The officers above tried a large number of cases of desertion, insubordination, and disobedience to orders, sentencing in this particular court-martial three deserters to be shot. Two of these men were executed in the presence of the whole division, at Morton's Ford on the Rapidian, in September following. The idea of a court-martial in the service was somewhat similar to that of civil jury. The judge-advocate of a prosecuting district attorney, except for the fact that he had to protect the prisoner's interest when the latter was unable to employ counsel. Privates were seldom able to employ counsel but officers on trial were generally able to do so.
      The officers composing this court were, from left to right, Captain Elliott, 60th NY; Cpt. Sligman, 102nd NY (judge advocate); Cpt. Zarracher, 29th Penn.; Cpt. Fitzpatrick, 28th Penn.; Cpt. Pierson, 137th NY; Cpt. Greenwalt, 111th Penn".
      Mel Hadden, Husband to Julia Marie, Maternal Great Granddaughter of
      Eben Lowder, Corporal, Co. H 14th Regiment N.C. Troops (4th Regiment N.C. Volunteers, Co. H, The Stanly Marksmen) Mustered in May 5, 1861, captured April 9, 1865.
      Paternal Great Granddaughter of James T. Martin, Private, Co. I, 6th North Carolina Infantry Regiment Senior Reserves, (76th Regiment N.C. Troops)

      "Aeterna Numiniet Patriae Asto"

      CWPT
      www.civilwar.org.

      "We got rules here!"

      The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies

      Battles and Leaders of the Civil War: Being for the most part contributations by Union and Confederate officers

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Subdued rank placement question

        Another example is the infamous Tourgee, Wallace and Morgaridge image in early '63: (Tourgee is the one on the left with subdued mini Lt. bars as prescribed by Rosecrans to reduce the picking off of officers during conflict. A written order is floating around but is not in my files at this time. No Lt. markings can be seen on the other men curiously. perhaps they had not yet recieved their insignia?)

        Anyhew..
        Attached Files
        Jon Harris


        Mang Rifles & Friends
        Ora pro nobis!

        ~ McIlvaineís 64th Ohio Infantry at Missionary Ridge 11/2019
        ~ Headís 49th Tennessee Infantry at Fort Donelson - Defending The Heartland 2/2020
        ~ Weverís 10th Iowa Infantry at Bentonville 3/2020
        ~ Opdycke's 125th Ohio Infantry at Franklin, 1863 - For God and the Right 5/2020
        ~ Pardeeís 42nd Ohio Infantry during the Vicksburg Campaign 5/2020
        ~ Day's Silent Machines, 12th U.S. Regulars during the Gettysburg Campaign 6/2020


        sigpic

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Subdued rank placement question

          If you do a search on the Library of Congress site (Prints and Photographs, Civil War: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/cwpquery.html) you will see a variety of subdued insignia, including lozenges-only for first sergeants, and -- for officers -- bars on collars, bars in front of the shoulders, bars only on the shoulders, and no insignia. The practice may go back as late 1862, but the relevant orders date from late in 1864 (I got this from the December 3, 1864 issue of the United States Army and Navy Journal):

          WD, AGO &c.
          General Orders No. 286, November 22, 1864
          "Officers serving in the field are permitted to dispense with shoulder straps and the prescribed insignia of rank on their horse equipments. The marks of rank prescribed to be worn on the shoulder-straps will be worn on the shoulder in place of the strap. Officers are also permitted to wear overcoats of the same color and shape as those of the enlisted men of their command. No ornaments will be required on the overcoats, hats or forage caps; nor will sashes or epaulettes be required.
          "By order of the Secretary of War.
          "E. D. Townsend, Assistant Adjutant-General"

          As I said, this only seemed to formalize what had already become the norm. If you look through the photos at the LOC, you'll see that others took up the practice, including the Quartermaster General, Montgomery Meigs. To be perfectly fair, though, he accompanied the charge up Missionary Ridge while on an "inspection" tour.
          Michael A. Schaffner

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Subdued rank placement question

            I keep wondering whether those below the rank of first sergeant had any options beside removing insignia altogether, and when and if the removal of insignia was allowed.
            [SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]Todd S. Bemis[/SIZE][/SIZE]
            [CENTER][/CENTER][I]Co. A, 1st Texas Infantry[/I]
            Independent Volunteers
            [I]simius semper simius[/I]

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Subdued rank placement question

              Since a sergeant or corporal wasn't quite as lucrative a target as an officer or first sergeant, I suspect that "subdued" rank didn't occur as often as simply not having the materials available to display rank, or not wanting to bother, or not needing to bother because the company was small enough for everyone to know who was who.

              One of the reasons I think that is this excerpt from Daniel Chisholm's notebook, which I apologize for posting again: ďSaturday, Jany 14th [1865] We have special orders for every non commissioned officer to have chevrons on their arms and stripes on their pants. The quarter master hasnít any, we have to take old blouses and make them ourselves. It is laughable to see all the boys at work with their needles. You may depend some of the stitches are long.Ē

              The following day he writes: "...We had our usual Co Inspection. The boys looked real nice in their home made chevrons and stripes if they did have to make them out of old blouses...."

              Chisholm was in the 116th PVI in the Second Corps, AoP, and they were in winter quarters at the time. I think that the fact that they needed their chevrons and stripes for the next day explains the quartermaster's lack of supplies, because this was an army in easy contact with City Point and every kind of store imaginable. That very condition of supply, however, would seem to indicate that their not having chevrons and stripes before then was a matter of choice, and that the choice was accepted by their superiors, up to a point.
              Michael A. Schaffner

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Subdued rank placement question

                Well thatís what Iím thinking. A sergeant or corporal became a more lucrative target if the officers were blending in more, which wouldnít be at all lucrative for said sergeants and corporals.
                As you say, everyone in the company would know who was who. No need for the sharpshooters to know it as well.
                Thanks for the find, Michael. Thatís the first hint Iíve seen about it, and itís a fairly strong hint, for the reasons you cited. The quartermaster didnít have any to issue at that point, even in winter quarters.
                [SIZE="3"][SIZE="2"]Todd S. Bemis[/SIZE][/SIZE]
                [CENTER][/CENTER][I]Co. A, 1st Texas Infantry[/I]
                Independent Volunteers
                [I]simius semper simius[/I]

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Subdued rank placement question

                  Here's another example of two captains with "subdued insignia." Note the braid on their forage caps that support the rank association:

                  "Fort Burnham, Va. (the former Confederate Fort Harrison). Federal soldiers in front of bomb-proof headquarters" (LC-DIG-cwpb-01951).
                  Attached Files
                  Jason C. Spellman
                  Skillygalee Mess

                  "Those fine fellows in Virginia are pouring out their heart's blood like water. Virginia will be heroic dust--the army of glorious youth that has been buried there."--Mary Chesnut

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Subdued rank placement question

                    Sir, do notice the "subdued collar rank" and" Austrian Knot" on second gentleman from left.. Click image for larger version

Name:	Charles_Francis_Adams,_Jr__-_LoC_Civil_War.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	1.20 MB
ID:	222972

                    Image may be found here..
                    Last edited by yeoman; 04-28-2012, 04:28 PM. Reason: post url for image
                    Mel Hadden, Husband to Julia Marie, Maternal Great Granddaughter of
                    Eben Lowder, Corporal, Co. H 14th Regiment N.C. Troops (4th Regiment N.C. Volunteers, Co. H, The Stanly Marksmen) Mustered in May 5, 1861, captured April 9, 1865.
                    Paternal Great Granddaughter of James T. Martin, Private, Co. I, 6th North Carolina Infantry Regiment Senior Reserves, (76th Regiment N.C. Troops)

                    "Aeterna Numiniet Patriae Asto"

                    CWPT
                    www.civilwar.org.

                    "We got rules here!"

                    The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies

                    Battles and Leaders of the Civil War: Being for the most part contributations by Union and Confederate officers

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Subdued rank placement question

                      This image, General Thomas H. Neil and group- General F.W.Russell, General Martindale, 6th Corps, please notice the General at left wears a fatigue jacket
                      with unusual and or subdued shoulder strap over another coat.. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3530/3...e7e198b7_o.jpg
                      Attached Files
                      Mel Hadden, Husband to Julia Marie, Maternal Great Granddaughter of
                      Eben Lowder, Corporal, Co. H 14th Regiment N.C. Troops (4th Regiment N.C. Volunteers, Co. H, The Stanly Marksmen) Mustered in May 5, 1861, captured April 9, 1865.
                      Paternal Great Granddaughter of James T. Martin, Private, Co. I, 6th North Carolina Infantry Regiment Senior Reserves, (76th Regiment N.C. Troops)

                      "Aeterna Numiniet Patriae Asto"

                      CWPT
                      www.civilwar.org.

                      "We got rules here!"

                      The War of the Rebellion: A Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies

                      Battles and Leaders of the Civil War: Being for the most part contributations by Union and Confederate officers

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Subdued rank placement question

                        In reply to the question, were sergeants or corporals targeted; the following is a excerpt from an article in the Christian Recorder of Philadelphia. The subject is the Eighth United States Colored Troops at the Battle of Olustee. The writer is Rufus S. Jones, Sgt. Mjr.:http://http://battleofolustee.org/le...thusct_cr.html

                        For the Christian Recorder.
                        April 16, 1864
                        FROM JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA.

                        Jacksonville, Florida, March 24th, 1864.

                        EXPEDITION TO FLORIDA.
                        "The Eighth, having been on the railroad for a short distance, was ordered to change direction to the right, and received orders to go into the fight, without unslinging knapsacks, or the sergeants taking off their sashes, which caused nearly all the first sergeants to be killed or wounded."

                        The Eighth suffered severely at Olustee partially due to the loss of leadership. This was their first engagement. The field officers were taken out of action early and the men were left on the field with little direction.
                        Also, of interest, the article seems to infer that is was common practice for the 1st Sergeants to wear their sashes on the march and to remove them prior to going into battle.
                        James Permane,

                        15th U.S. Infantry/ 4th Fla. Vol. Inf'y


                        http://battleofolustee.org/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Subdued rank placement question

                          All,

                          I know this thread is old, but I cam across this and wanted to share since it combines both of the topics being discussed on this thread. It is from Our Campaigns: the Second Regiment Pennsylvania Reserve Volunteers by Lt. Col. EM Woodward. It is account written about January 1863, when the 2nd Reserves was on picket duty near Fairfax Court House and can be found on pages 199-200:

                          "On the 20th, Lieutenant Colonel Woodward arrived in camp and superseded Captain Smith, and the next day, at daylight, our regiment started for Bull Run to go on picket. On arriving at Union Mills, our Colonel reported to General Hays, who sent a dashing young aide, all covered with gold to receive us. Upon his arrival he inquired for Captain Reitzel, who was temporarily in charge of the regiment. It should be mentioned here, that officers of the Reserves were never particularly noted for their fine uniforms and gold lacings, and especially after going through the memorable campaign of 1862. In fact, Captain Reitzel wore nothing to indicate he was an officer but his sword, an that was concealed under his overcoat. Besides, the captain, like many other old campaigners, went out provided with the implements of comfort, an axe and frying pan. The aide was duly saluted by the captain, who informed him he was the individual sought for, but his indignation at the impudence of the "pioneer," as he called him, waxed exceedingly warm and he was on the point of running him down when he discovered his mistake, which created a hearty laugh all round..."

                          I found it interesting that the Captain "wore nothing to indicate that he was an officer but his sword." This is one of the earliest accounts I have encountered discussing Union line officers wearing subdued, or in this case, no rank. Like the account says, the Reserves did have one hell of an 1862 including Second Manassas, Antietam, and Fredericksburg. It is also interesting that this is coming from the Lt. Colonel of the regiment and he seems to be quite comfortable with the fact that the officers of the entire division seem to be free to exercise judgment on wearing less than regulatory rank.

                          Enjoy!
                          Bob Bowser

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Subdued rank placement question

                            Not sure if this is subdued insignia or standard straps with borders removed.

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	03941v.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	136.9 KB
ID:	224595

                            And again with the chap on the left:
                            Click image for larger version

Name:	03750v.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	136.4 KB
ID:	224597

                            Another example (Gent at right… same guy as above):
                            Click image for larger version

Name:	03749v.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	136.7 KB
ID:	224596
                            Last edited by LibertyHallVols; 03-06-2015, 12:36 AM.
                            John Wickett
                            Former Carpetbagger
                            Administrator (We got rules here! Be Nice - Sign Your Name - No Farbisms)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Subdued rank placement question

                              Originally posted by LibertyHallVols View Post
                              Not sure if this is subdued insignia or standard straps with borders removed.

                              And again with the chap on the left:
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]48942[/ATTACH]

                              Another example (Gent at right… same guy as above):
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]48941[/ATTACH]
                              re: chap seated at Right in top photo and standing in bottom, never seen rank like that before. Looks like a single line of gold lace (much like would adorn the collars of CSA company officers). 1st or 2nd Lieutenant w- a creative approach to subdued rank?
                              Ian Macoy
                              Blue Ridge, VA

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X