Historic Westville, New Location, Um, Yeah. About That...

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

I just wish they had tried to incorporate the ADA updates into the original designs a bit better. Using modern decking materials makes it stand out and that is the optical failure.

Totally agree, Joe... a Happy Medium could have been struck, but the guidance here to get it done seems to have been lacking.

- - - Updated - - -

Hello Johnny, well my friend I see this as nothing less than an obvious "Bone of Contention!" A phrase I recall your using with great exhilaration and distinction (including a large bone prop) in the back (Gentlemen's) room at the Westville Tavern. And I might add from my memory, a place of unparalleled Southern gentlemen, unequalled educational stimuli, courtly manners, camaraderie, entertainment and revelry. And Johnny- you were a major part of that amazing experience.

While I intellectually understand the arguments I cannot help but place my sympathies squarely in the corner of Mr. Lloyd if only for the period immersion that Westville provided. After thirty years of reenacting and over one hundred events I can recall but few with such warmth and personal satisfaction. The Westville events certainly land among the top ten. Nothing can ever equal the "feel" (visual, sounds, smells and touch) the old site provided to give one the feeling of actually living in a Southern town in the 1860's. The buildings, their arrangement, their contents, the remote quietness and even the deplorable roads gave one a sense that this is as close as I am ever going to get to "as it was". Add to that the "best of the best" in Living Historians and well.......absolutely enchanting.

And, while I agree that preservation of the buildings is critically important (especially in today's world) it is also clear something more was sacrificed, lost and probably forever gone - at least for those of us that "lived" however briefly, at the old site. It cannot be duplicated. But then, such as it is in all things we cherish.

Ken R Knopp

Yep, compadre... doesn't seem like these times will be back there, for a long time, at least. It was a blast. :)

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

I'm glad they preserved the buildings. If ADA-compliant features and not having interior fires are the biggest problems, there is no real problem. Hell, the time I was there I spent evenings in a tent and days inundated by the tourists who infested the site. The tavern at night was the most "immersive" part of the experience and clearly, for some participants, the "immersion" was as much in the offerings on pour as in history. It's good it was saved. Don't let amateur visions of the perfect be the enemy of professional realities of the good.

I mean think about it, Johnny. What you're really arguing is that actual historic buildings should be more exposed to damage from fire and smoke, and less accessible to the disabled, in order that we hobbyists can have, in our own unprofessional view, a more "authentic" experience. That's both selfish and utterly unrealistic.

Again, Mike... see above. Read what I said... It is VERY good the buildings are preserved and are being invested in.

That is about the only saving grace here in this story.

Unfortunately, for the hobbyist and not really for the museum-minded, the accurate interpretation of the site is now compromised. Those expecting the immersive experience of the Westville Saga will be sorely disappointed now the city blindly follows regulations, even when those regulations might hurt the attraction's main draw: authenticity of interpretation.

I think a happy medium could have been struck between safety/regulations and authenticity, but to what I have seen and heard from close sources so far, this hasn't happened. The village is being treated as a museum, not as a living history site that needs active, ACCURATE participation and interpretation.

On a secondary note: If the site gives just a little to reenactors, the site will receive love, in the long run, from them as well too.

There is nothing "selfish" in balancing historical accuracy (the draw to the site in the first place... it's raison de etre) and safety/regulations.

Others' mileage may vary, but I know what I saw.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Historic Westville, New Location, Um, Yeah. About That...

Hello Johnny, well my friend I see this as nothing less than an obvious "Bone of Contention!" A phrase I recall your using with great exhilaration and distinction (including a large bone prop) in the back (Gentlemen's) room at the Westville Tavern. And I might add from my memory, a place of unparalleled Southern gentlemen, unequalled educational stimuli, courtly manners, camaraderie, entertainment and revelry. And Johnny- you were a major part of that amazing experience.

While I intellectually understand the arguments I cannot help but place my sympathies squarely in the corner of Mr. Lloyd if only for the period immersion that Westville provided. After thirty years of reenacting and over one hundred events I can recall but few with such warmth and personal satisfaction. The Westville events certainly land among the top ten. Nothing can ever equal the "feel" (visual, sounds, smells and touch) the old site provided to give one the feeling of actually living in a Southern town in the 1860's. The buildings, their arrangement, their contents, the remote quietness and even the deplorable roads gave one a sense that this is as close as I am ever going to get to "as it was". Add to that the "best of the best" in Living Historians and well.......absolutely enchanting.

And, while I agree that preservation of the buildings is critically important (especially in today's world) it is also clear something more was sacrificed, lost and probably forever gone - at least for those of us that "lived" however briefly, at the old site. It cannot be duplicated. But then, such as it is in all things we cherish.

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Lewis]

Re: Historic Westville, New Location, Um, Yeah. About That...

As with everything the government touches the buildings and site are ruined. Historical accuracy should always be the first priority.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

I'm glad they preserved the buildings. If ADA-compliant features and not having interior fires are the biggest problems, there is no real problem. Hell, the time I was there I spent evenings in a tent and days inundated by the tourists who infested the site. The tavern at night was the most "immersive" part of the experience and clearly, for some participants, the "immersion" was as much in the offerings on pour as in history. It's good it was saved. Don't let amateur visions of the perfect be the enemy of professional realities of the good.

I mean think about it, Johnny. What you're really arguing is that actual historic buildings should be more exposed to damage from fire and smoke, and less accessible to the disabled, in order that we hobbyists can have, in our own unprofessional view, a more "authentic" experience. That's both selfish and utterly unrealistic.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

I have to think about the popular sites in my area for mainstream and the extremely rare Authentic event. Fort Union has a modern visitor center, a modern road leading to the park, cell towers in the Turkey Mountains, and noises from the interstate; the ruins are in fact the ruins from the Civil War and Indian Wars military post. Fort Stanton has an eclectic mixture of Civil War era buildings, Indian Wars era buildings, and almost-modern buildings associated with the hospitals and prison on site; the buildings are from the Civil War fort, the Indian Wars fort, the federal tuberculosis hospital, the state insane asylum, and the state women's prison. Pecos National Park is at least close enough to the piņons to hide most modern items, but there are still modern park buildings and visible cell towers, along with noises from the interstate and from Amtrak; the site is the location of the Federal headquarters during the battle of Glorieta in 1862. Fort Garland smells like marijuana because there is a dispensary half a block from the fort, and railroad and highway noises are obvious, and cell towers are visible; the site is the existing buildings and the rebuilt buildings of a Civil War and Indian Wars fort. The Valverde activities are nowhere near the actual battlefield because the battlefield is privately-owned cattle land. The Golondrinas events draw a decent mainstream crowd, at a site that is based around colonial and federal Mexican era New Mexico, on a site that is similar to Westville, and modern amenities are noticeable along with the flight path for the Santa Fe Airport; the site was a part of a Spanish land grant. Nothing will be perfect.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

I would have to say that interpreting it to everybody is an essential part of an interpretive site (instead of limiting it to people capable of climbing stairs), and sacrifices have to be made in order to meet that requirement. But then again the Southeast has ecological and climate reasons for not letting buildings to sit at ground level, which creates issues for historic sites. We didn't have that issue at the historical village I worked at in Texas. And we do not have that issue in New Mexico.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

Think: Other than preserving the original buildings, what is the point of having an interpretive site without the ability to interpret it historically correct?

I am sure there is a happy medium here, but clearly this was not done here, according to what I saw and took pics of.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

That is true, but this is something that I am paid to do 8-5 as my profession, so you can probably see why I have objections and why I am vocal, because my paychecks depend on it. The difficulty with working with historic buildings is that any and all accessibility ramps have to work with existing doors. If the building only has a front and back door, then ramp has to attach to the front or back door. There are historic buildings in the Southwest, like at Sharlott Hall in Prescott, where the historical buildings are entirely at ground level where this is not an issue. Whenever something is raised above ground level, there are new issues. A ramp outside of front and back door could be hidden, but that (1) would require cutting a brand-new door in the existing building, which is a huge no-no in the field, and (2) would set differently-abled people apart from everybody else in the group, which would be humiliating and cause for lawsuit. This is a somewhat tough decision for the museum field, but the Authentic community has to understand and accept that there are factors involved that are beyond a simple "historically accurate" vs. "historically inaccurate" dichotomy.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

I just wish they had tried to incorporate the ADA updates into the original designs a bit better. Using modern decking materials makes it stand out and that is the optical failure.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

Well, you were talking about things from a museum perspective and I am talking about things from a hobby related perspective. This website is for hobbyists, not museum workers.

I can appreciate where you're coming from and yes there are liabilities and issues with not having things handicapped compliant. But the job they did... see pics... does severely limit the authenticity of the history being interpreted at the site.

It also hampers many caring living historians from coming and interpreting history at the site because they feel it no longer looks correct... A better job could have been done in a more authentic way, but the oversite was apparently not present to combine historical accuracy with legal requirement compliance.

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

On the other hand, it is more accessible to school groups in Columbus now that they relocated. And they are easier to reach by tourists. And they are more accessible to people with physical disabilities. What I am drunkenly saying is that the needs of the Authentic community and the needs of the Museum community are not the same, and while we (Authentic hobbyists) can lament the addition of ADA-compliant features to historical buildings, the historic village can be far more successful now. My current museum is at risk of an ADA-based lawsuit right now because our historic building is not accessible, and should someone sue, we would quickly lose and the museum would simply be shut down and the staff would be mostly laid off, until the city can successfully squeeze funding out of the state to build a brand-new building. This is not a simple easy-answer issue for the field. Just like NAGPRA, ADA is something that we have to seriously consider and not write off as farbism. Again, you have to understand that the needs of the museum field and the needs of the authentic hobby are not the same. And while you lament this situation, I applaud it. And adding ramps to buildings is not a big deal from the museum perspective. I've been there at other museums, in historic costume or agency uniform, leading tours to visitors, and telling them in the frankest of terms that we added those ramps to make them accessible, and historically the buildings did not have ramps. Don't attack Westville for adapting to the 21st Century, just accept that this hobby's standards are different from what the museum field follows and move on.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

It is still possible for the past to be effectively interpreted without it being a 100% facsimile of the 1860s. Just look at any historic village or any museum centered around a historic village. One museum I worked at had a "historical dogtrot house" that was built completely by museum staff (including myself), and included an HVAC system that would allow for actual artifacts to be stored in it outside of the main museum building and collections storage. Historical interpretation does not require 100% purity; you are conflating this hobby with the standards of the professional museum field. If we want to make history accessible to everybody, we have to make our buildings ADA compliant. And that is the key to the museum field, accessibility to everybody and not just those who are physically able.

Look, dude... I got it. Rules are rules. But the main draw to the site (formerly) was how accurate it was... now that historical accuracy is severely limited as to what interpreters can do accurately. So, gain preserved 100% historical buildings... cool. Lose about 80% of the site's interpretability and accuracy... not cool.

There are also ways around these rules as well... like asking for dispensation and accommodation with the business case that doing these modernisms for 'up to code' specs will KILL much of what draws people to the site.

I'm aware of museum standards being different than hobby ones... I have worked in/with a few museums and State/NPS sites, but the ability to interpret a LARGE draw to this particular site (living history, not something in a glass case under preservation) is now damaged permanently because of a city government that doesn't fully understand what it just bought.

The original Westville site had running water taps, modern bathrooms and electrical plugs... BUT they were generally hidden from public view. There is NO WAY to hide the modern junk that is all over these buildings now... AND their use is SEVERELY limited.

And if you are encouraging outright farbery... please move on from this site. :)

[NMVolunteer]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

It is still possible for the past to be effectively interpreted without it being a 100% facsimile of the 1860s. Just look at any historic village or any museum centered around a historic village. One museum I worked at had a "historical dogtrot house" that was built completely by museum staff (including myself), and included an HVAC system that would allow for actual artifacts to be stored in it outside of the main museum building and collections storage. Historical interpretation does not require 100% purity; you are conflating this hobby with the standards of the professional museum field. If we want to make history accessible to everybody, we have to make our buildings ADA compliant. And that is the key to the museum field, accessibility to everybody and not just those who are physically able.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: Historic Westville, Georgia's new location... um, yeah. About that... :/

The saving of the buildings is a certain success. But the ability for us to interpret them for the public properly and historically accurately is now in jeopardy. So, other than saving the buildings, what is the point? What is the draw? Incorrect history? Okay...