Are these picture taking duds ?

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

. Is that just me or is Lewis Payne wearing broadfall fronted trousers. I know that it is seen in some Navy uniforms, but wasn't that for the most part out of style for civilian where by then, or is that a matter of Payne being among a lower socio-economic class and wearing what he could afford to get?

I have read a fair bit about Lewis Powell a/k/a Lewis Paine a/k/a Lewis Payne....his homestead having been in Live Oak, Florida.

Perhaps he was in naval garments due to his imprisonment and subsequent execution at the Washington Navy Yard. Broadfall trousers might come in handy when according to the The Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia (p. 245), speaking of Powell during his pre-sentence imprisonment and subsequent adjudications "he didn't have a bowel movement for 35 straight days."

Powell's burial spot in Washington's Holmead Cemetery was unearthed in the 1870s and his skull, which was found in storage at the Smithsonian was positively identified by the FBI and returned for interment at his mother's Geneva, Florida gravesite in 1994.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

There were plenty of crowds in the south who wore black or dark broadcloth, too, but I think if one wanted to think of a stereotypical image of a southerner like the cartoon, the linen coat was one attribute, due to the hot weather, along with the broad-brimmed hat.
Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

HT - As always, you present a probable, historical representation with this, but my Support-Fu is strong Master Trentson......and I put forth: Chattanooga, 1864 (by pic description). There are men in this image seemingly in shirt sleeves, the chimney outlets do not reveal any degree of a heat fire and the men perched in the open doorways indicate no premium being placed on structural heat retention, especially in light of the set up and processing time of period photographic media.....all said to demonstrate a high probably this is not dead of winter.

By my eye, in middle Tennessee, circa 1864 the dark hued mens outer garments seem to dominate with the exception of three or so gents... in an agreeably less than stellar resolution image. I am also not seeing the common, distinctive cut and contrasting hue of the National soldier's fatigue uniform..but it is a indeed a wicked lousy shot.

If any CIA types can work thier magic on this one.......wow.




If we are playing a round of what we think coulda, woulda, mighta happened based on this image..... I'm gwine to toss out that perhaps the white-suited set depicted bv Harper's and Bingham's 1854 Stump Speech are the elite, politi-planter class, who absent the typical labor of their own hand (read: chattel slaves) required for the necessities of the day (i.e..equine labor vs carriage travel, sustenance labor, fuel labor..etc) were able to pull off the white suits...as day wear.

and

the every day common workin stiff chose darker garments for the aforementioned garment longevity and utilitarian purposes, that history later supports.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida
Banned and in Solitary Confinement but Still Diggin' the History

[Hank Trent]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Mr. North is also in what apears to be a tailcoat, also outdated for day-wear by the war years. ... looks a bit like Uncle Sam to me. :-/

Yes, I always thought that Uncle Sam was meant to be a shrewd country fellow all dressed up to go to town in what he thought was his Sunday best, sort of a symbol of America's place in the international community as an upstart rough-and-ready kind of nation. But Mr. North seems to be more city-like and sophisticated than that.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Elaine Kessinger]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Mr. North is also in what apears to be a tailcoat, also outdated for day-wear by the war years. ... looks a bit like Uncle Sam to me. :-/

[Hank Trent]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

HT - Am I reading a suggestion that a known, societally engrained geographical difference, thus stereotype existed in the hues of clothing colors ?

Yes, though I'd say it's also summer-winter too in the north.

If this is true, my knowledge of the effects of dark colors on heat absorption in the Southland immediately comes to mind. Is the hue difference climate based ? One can easily agree the brim width on the Southrons hat is climate based, no ?

Yep, that's what I always figured.

Is the Harpers Cartoon laying out the foundation of the white suited "Colonel Sanders-type" plantation stereotype this early in the progression of American History ?

Yes. How about a Kentucky major? This photo of Kentucky architect Major Thomas Lewinski (on the left in a white coat and light pants) is probably a little post-war, but not by much, since he was born in 1802.

A little further west and earlier, 1854 Missouri, is Bingham's famous painting including the speaker and at least one listener in white coats.

There were plenty of crowds in the south who wore black or dark broadcloth, too, but I think if one wanted to think of a stereotypical image of a southerner like the cartoon, the linen coat was one attribute, due to the hot weather, along with the broad-brimmed hat.

In the north-south cartoon, one thing I'm curious about is the northerner wearing pants with straps, a style that had disappeared from the dandies at least a decade before, as far as I know. Is that to show he's old-fashioned, or was that considered ultra-formal, or what exactly would that be a sign of?

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

HT - Am I reading a suggestion that a known, societally engrained geographical difference, thus stereotype existed in the hues of clothing colors ?

If this is true, my knowledge of the effects of dark colors on heat absorption in the Southland immediately comes to mind. Is the hue difference climate based ? One can easily agree the brim width on the Southrons hat is climate based, no ?

Is the Harpers Cartoon laying out the foundation of the white suited "Colonel Sanders-type" plantation stereotype this early in the progression of American History ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[Hank Trent]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I wonder if the light colored frocks in Scouts and Spies were procured from the same source and if so, do they signify anything ans/or what was their manufactured and intended purpose.

I'm guessing they're going for the the same look that was stereotypically southern, like in this Harpers cartoon. The southerner with his broad-brimmed hat and light (linen?) frock coat is contrasted with the northerner in his dark (black broadcloth?) tailcoat and tophat.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I wonder if the light colored frocks in Scouts and Spies were procured from the same source and if so, do they signify anything ans/or what was their manufactured and intended purpose.

I can't help but see similarity among them.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

[georgerutherford1861]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

I do like the picture of the scouts and spies posted earlier. Not to derail the thread, but one amusing thing to note is the "wardrobe malfunction" on the bearded gentleman whose clothing appears to be light standing in the middle in the back. His vest is mis-buttoned. Glad to know I'm not the only one to make mistakes - not that I would try or recommend trying to replicate this at an event - but found it interesting.

Doug Frank

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


More scouts and guides for the army of the potomac....maryland 1862
courtesy of the national archives

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

Refugee family evacuating a city during the war:

courtesy of the national archives

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


Source

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


This is a neat image....taken in 1860:
Source

[lukegilly13]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?


Not a clear picture but you can see some basic details. Taken from: Source

Caption beneth it reads:

[rbruno]

Re: Are these picture taking duds ?

What about context for that vest? When does it date to, what kind of material was it made from, was it a special occasion vest? The number of original fancy vests that were made for and worn by men for special occasions, such as their weddings, is countless. These do not necessarily count as "everyday" vests. There are certainly some very colorful original garments, but before anyone goes out and has them reproduced to wear at some event for whatever purpose, people need to understand a little more about their context. You can't look at a vest dated 1855 or 1845 and think, "Wow, that vest is off the hook! I'm going to incorporate it into my civilian impression for 1863."

I certainly can't speak to all the details of the vest I was mentioning. I don't know if Brian post here, but from what I remember it was wool with a very ornate woven floral/paisly like pattern. The vest was a little rough in shape so you could see the back of the fabric to see how it was all woven together and the different original colors to make the pattern on the front. It also appeared to be well used from the wear on the vest and stains. I can't recall Brian's exact words, but from the design of the collar and style of vest, he put it in the 50s to 60s range of date. Again, please don't qoute me on this because I took a lot of pictures and talk about the vest but didn't take as many notes as I should have. And, I don't want to speak to much on something that is owned by someone else.