What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

[CS Ensign]

Good day all,

Fresh fish here! Or fresh to this forum, but been around this sort of impression in the past, and got interested again. Mods, I hope I put this thread in the right place.

I'm doing some research on actual flagpoles, or I prefer the more elegant color-lance term, carried in battle. I haven't been able to find a whole lot of documented info on appearance, dimensions etc of actual color-lances, though I confess I have looked mostly at CS instead of US sources.

Any period descriptions out there of what was actually used? Off the top of my head, as a CS example I can only think of the carved pole (basically what appeared to be a shaped tree limb) that the 6th Ky's (CS) color was on when it was captured at Jonesboro on Sep 1, '64.

Regards,
Greg

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Hi,

Try EOG (CS) on page 254. They have a picture of the flag, and flag pole, that was used by the 12th Virginia. Also, try EOG (US), alot of the US flags, in that book, have the poles with them.

[BrandonEnglish]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

There are I think 7 original CS flagpoles that were surrendered at Appomattox in Tredegar Iron Works in Richmond (the NPS museum not the civil war center). Just from memory 6 out of these 7 were about 7 feet tall and just sticks about 3/4in wide with notches cut in so the flag could be tied to them. They were obviously just felled out in the woods somewhere.

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Unless you are talking about something like Tiffany's they are all basically "just sticks", some just happen to be more refined than others.

[CS Ensign]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Thanks all, for the replies.

Garrison, is the image you posted of the ones at Tredegar? Interesting that a couple of them indeed have some sort of point.

Thanks,
Greg

[Shockoe Hill Cats]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Unless you are talking about something like Tiffany's they are all basically "just sticks", some just happen to be more refined than others.

Holy crap! Drew Gruber and I, literally, just walked back from Tredegar! Odd!

Garrison, you missed the one that looked like a tree limb from the backyard (would have been the next one on right). That only noticeable difference I saw was that it had a horizontal notch about halfway up.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

From the Revised Regulations of the United States Army, 1861:
1437 Each regiment of Artillery...Each color to be six feet six inches fly, and six feet deep on the pike. The pike, including the spear and ferrule, to be nine feet ten inches in length.
1438 Each regiment of Infantry...The size of each color to be six feet six inches fly, and six feet deep on the pike. The length of the pike, including the spear and ferrule, to be nine feet ten inches.

Just like all items of military provenance of the war, you have regulations and you have actual practice. You'll find some incrediblly ornate spears, gold eagles, eagles on globes, almost medievel axes, etc. on some poles, and then like the CS staffs mentioned, some are mere tree limbs whittled down. A decent resource to invest in is "Flags of the Civil War" by Phillip Katcher, published by Osprey Military

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Hallo!

I can't find the reference I want at the moment...

But, I seem to recall that Richmond issued an octagonal staff begining I think with the second national flag (?).

However, when looking at Period images of CS flags, they "all" seem to be round stock, the differences being in the finial tip which ranged from nothing on up.

And yes, with the rate of flags and staffs taking hits, field expedients could outstrip replacements.

Curt

[markj]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Some random notes that I've gleaned from my research through various period papers and from other flag researchers.

One more thing: I happen to own an 8 foot maple staff that was specially made for me by flagmaker Steve Hill a few years back. I no longer own the flag that flew from the staff as I presented it to a German reenacting unit a couple of months ago. However, if you (or anybody else) wants the staff, which is superb and comes with a spearpoint finial, contact me privately and we'll discuss a price.

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I visited the Tennessee State Museum yesterday, and took a quick survey of their staffs and finials.

Several have numbers matching them up to flags in the collection. I did not get that far yesterday, but one that I measured appears to match US Army regs for a cavalry lance, and had an area not as discoloured as the rest that indicated it has carried a flag about the same width as a cavalry guidon. Its overall length was nine feet and it had a brass spear corresponding in shape to the Army Spear still in use. Its width at the centre was about 1.25 inches. The museum had a couple of others that appeared to match this one.

The collection also had a couple of staffs that on first glance would appear to be Confederate. Both measured about 1.5 inches in width, and had no taper. One measured about ten feet long including its spear, which was about a foot long, and appeared to be hand forged iron or steel. The other was broken at the top, but even still measured almost ten feet long not counting the missing section and whatever spear it had one possessed, if any. Both of these staffs had tacks that once held the flag to the staff. The unbroken staff's tacks indicated that the flag it held was six feet wide, and the tacks held the remains of what appeared to be blue silk. The broken staff had tacks for a length of about 4 feet. These tacks also had some material attached to them, but I was not able to determine the nature or colour of the fabric. The broken staff was also painted a colour that appears to be close to the olive green used on period limbers and artillery carriages.

The museum also has a number of staffs of unknown origin. There is one bundle of them, all with brass army spears, except one with what appears to be a nickel plated army spear, with staff diameters of from 1 to 1.25 inches.

In the near future I will spend some more time with these staffs, and try to match the numbered ones up with flags in the TSM collection.

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Captured.--At the battle of Pleasant Hill our 16th [Indiana] Regiment, now mounted infantry, captured the flag of a Texas cavalry regiment, after a desperate contest, and brought it off safely. Captain C. T. Doxey, of Company K, who commanded the regiment in the absence of Col. [Thomas J.] Lucas, acting as brigade commander, was severely wounded, a ball passing through from his left cheek bone to the right ear, and the regiment presented the flag to him [Doxey], as an expression of admiration for his courage.--
He [Doxey] arrived in the city [of Indianapolis] with it yesterday [Wednesday, May 25th, 1864], and left it in this office [of the Indianapolis Daily Journal] till he returns from home, whither his wound compels him to go. It [the flag] has seen hard service, for it is so torn with shot and split and shivered by long wear, that it is almost impossible to unfold it. The staff is short, stained dark, and is mounted with a tin contrivance, that looks as if it were intended for a cross. We believe the Captain intends presenting it to the Governor [O. P. Morton] on his return, for deposit in the State Library. In the meantime, it will remain here [at the Journal offices], where all who wish to see a genuine "rebel rag," literally a rag, can be gratified.

******************

The color staff of the 35th NCT was on display at the Richmond NBP VC earlier this year [2003], on loan from the MoC with a selection of other staffs, which I expect you have examined earlier. [The 35th NCT was organized in Nov 1861 and was later assigned to Ransom's Brigade in June 1862. They rotated between the ANV and eastern NC from '62 to '65. Colors lost at Five Forks(?)]

The 35th's staff was interesting for several reasons, since it was not the plain octagonal type I normally associate with "ANV-related" colors. I estimate the staff to be between 7-8 ft tall, round, and appeared well made, with a long "diamond" shaped iron or steel spearpoint (my guess: 8-10" long) and short cylindrical iron butt ferrule (about 4").

Due to the display, I could not tell if the spearpoint and the upper ferrule were one piece, but it appeared to me that the spearpoint was set into the staff and the lower part of the ferrule may have been a separate "sleeve" placed over that joint.

Given the more "detailed" contruction, could this be a "N.S. Harp" item? Clearly the parts and construction could have been done by a carriage maker. Harp provided 25 staffs to the state in 1861(28 Sep: 4; 9 Oct: 11; 17 Oct: 10). Perhaps the 35th received one of those when it mustered in? In 2000(2001?), I believe Greg B. found some info on Harp in the C&B files at NARA, which showed that Harp provided "6 small flag staffs with spears $18.00" to the state,which paid for them on "18th of June, 1862 at Raleigh, NC." Since he made "small" staffs (for camp markers?) he may have made the color staffs for the state "with spears".

***************

Regards,

Mark Jaeger
markj@purdue.edu

[markj]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

Some more notes I found in my old files:

I too have found that a wide variety of staffs were used with Confederate
flags. When I compared the War Department records that list which captured
CS flags had attached staffs when they were returned to the Southern states
in 1905, I found that few of these original staffs still survive in the
various state collections. (I have not checked with all Southern states on
this question. Many flags were detached from their staffs after 1905, and
even so the staffs were apparently marked by the War Department with the
capture numbers, the staffs often later lost their histories and were not
always saved.)

Of the four staffs returned to Florida in 1905, all were different from each
other. Two of these staffs survive today. The staff of the 8th Florida
Infantry flag, captured at Sailor's Creek, is plain and was possibly field
made. The staff of the flag misidentified as the "18th Florida" (probably
the 5th Florida Infantry, captured at Sailor's Creek) has a turned wooden
tulip-shaped finial and appears to have been somewhat more professionally
made, although still rather plain.

Based on one Florida unit flag shown in a photo of flags returned in 1905,
the staffs of some Dept. of SC, Ga., and Fla. flags appear to have been
unusually thin and professionally made, at least in the case of one light
artillery sized flag.

The Museum has a brass US Army style spade-shaped spear finial, reported to
have been used with General William W. Loring's wartime headquarters flag.
It could possibly be of prewar manufacture or captured.

***************

...the NC flag staffs were made by N.S. Harp (Noel Solomon) of
Raleigh who operated a carriage/coach building firm (Raleigh Coach
Works) both before and after the war. Obviously, if you can make
spokes, shafts, axels, etc., you can make flag staffs. I located a
descendant of Harp who has two NC State Fair premium medals that Harp
won for his buggies at the 1872 and 1873 fairs. The few flags staffs we
have [display] a wide difference in their appearances. Some are octagonal, at least one has a turned wooden knob (bullet shape) for the finial, and one staff pole is painted red (no provenance). The most fascinating thing I find
is that we have a few that are worn down on the sections of the staffs
where the hands would have grasp them.

****************

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[CS Ensign]

Re: What to put the Flag on, or Documented Color-Lances

I am playing catch-up while the mods approve my newbie posts, but I would like to thank you all for the detailed replies and insight. My question was originally generated from a review of "The Returned Battle Flags," in which about one third of the color-lances / flagstaffs shown appear to be field made. Given that the images in "The Returned Battle Flags" are drawings, and that not many details are visible on many of the staffs, that's a subjective opinion, but some of the "color-lances" shown are obviously supposed to show something made from a stick or limb.

Of course when portraying a given unit with a specific color it would be great to reproduce the original color-lance if possible, but if the original no longer exists, I feel that a field made pole is acceptable.

Regards,
Greg