The Atlanta Depot Jacket... What exactly is it?

[FloridaConscript]

This my warrant another thread, but research suggests the "atlana" jacket
In echoes is actually a charleston product. The lyons jacket in
EOG is (as stated above) an all wool product. The cloth
is most likely an english product. It is a plain weave of blue/grey on white/cream/tan.
There is a carbon copy of the jacket in a museum in georgia attributed
to a soldier in the 5th ga. Cav. He left chaston and was wounded
In late june at ezra church (noon day church? Some church)
The jackets produced in chaston used blockade run english woolens
As well as domestically produced cloth. Some of us in the PG are further researching
these intriguing jackets.

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

That's interesting. I thought the Lyon's jacket was made out of a salt-and-pepper coarse woven wool? I had not seen anything about English broadcloth.... I thought it was a domestic wool that was of poor quality...

[brown]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

I have heard from several knowledgeable and well-connected sources that Jensen regrets the salt and pepper term. Aren't there three.surviving originals, all with connections to the Atlanta Campaign (hence Jensen's depot name) AND to the SC coast?

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Well I believe according to the research I've seen all three are tied to either SC, GA or (maybe) AL troops, and the assumption is that they were all issued out of the Atlanta Depot to the troops in the field. The term Jenson coined was based on the depot they were issued from, I believe, as opposed to the Atlanta Campaign itself.

And Jensen's "term regret" notwithstanding (and I'm sure there's a ton of those!), it sure is tough to make out any kersey blue/gray or broadcloth weave on the Lyon coat as you mention.... He described it as a rough, tabby weave, similar to burlap, but describes the wool color as gray (or at least a black and white blend - "salt and pepper"). The pictures I've seen tend to support that. That doesn't sound or look much like English import broadcloth or kersey......Have you inspected the original for that weave and color? If so I'd love to see some photos of it as I've always assumed it to be a rough domestically produced and procured tabby wool.

I will say that I've not seen any pictures of Private Daniels' coat (he of the 5th GA Cav - the battle was Noonday Church during the Atlanta Campaign) or Private Stanley's who is loosely tied to the 22nd Alabama. I believe those are the only three extant that Jensen refers to as the "Atlanta Depot" type? But even so I've never heard any of them described as "kersey", "broadcloth" or "blue-gray" in color like you would see in a Tait or a late-war RDIII.

But if what you are saying is correct it would be good to support it with some photos and other research for us on the forum. There are many here that do an AoT impression, and if the "Atlanta Depot" is actually supposed to be English broadcloth or kersey I'd say that is good information to have....

Cheers.
Rich

[CSchneider]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

It is a plain weave of blue/grey on white/cream/tan.

I didn't get "English import blue grey kersey/broadcloth" out of this statement. Just a suggestion that this particular seemingly well-finished bluish grey tabby weave wool might have been imported. Nothing surprising there at all. The "evidence points to 'Atlanta Depot' jackets actually having been made in Charleston" investigation has been going on for awhile too: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...acket-pattern/

-Craig Schneider

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Hey Craig. Yes I see what you mean. But when you see "blue-gray" and "English import woolens" that usually seems to mean kersey or something very similar, especially for something late war like the AD..... Same with the RDIIIs and the Taits.

Love to see some pictures of it though, if someone has them. The ones I've seen all appear to be that shoddy "salt and pepper"....

R

[brown]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Daniel's jacket is the one at the little museum in Midway, GA, correct?

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Fellas,

Craig has it. Not all cloth run through the blockade was kersey (though a HUGE amount did come through).
We have really just scratched the surface on English goods and their presence in the CS QM system. The McCrae papers and Lon Websters work in "Entrepot" are sources that we haven't fully put all the pieces together yet.

I am posting the following excerpt from a letter from Maj Waller of the Richmond depot to general A C meyers:

The resources of my district, Virginia, not within my control, embrace eight or ten small woolen mills in the Valley and western part of Virginia, now within our lines. There are some eight or ten mills of considerable capacity in the vicinity of Winchester and Charleston, not within our lines. Those in the Valley are more or less exposed in position, and cannot be relied on with certainty. I am not aware of their capacity, or the extent of their supplies. Should the enemy be driven entirely from Virginia, the mills which would thus be thrown inside our lines, and whose production would be thereby secured to the government, would aid very considerably in clothing our Army.

Two of the mills in Western Virginia are working partially for the government. How long they will continue to do so, or whether I can continue to control their productions even partially, is doubtful.

I have no means of making a reliable estimate of the wool crop of Virginia, which may be procured by government for the next year, but it will largely aid in keeping the mills running for the government in operation, and I would respectfully recommend that under your supervision or that of the Assistant Q.M. General, arrangement be made to purchase all that can be had during the Spring and Summer. Not permitting speculators to outbid the Government. And I would here add the importance of a matter which has no doubt received your attention. To make arrangements in other states, as well as in Texas, to secure the wool crop.

The greatest auxiliary to this depot and others, will be to sustain Major Ferguson in England with funds. He has made purchases already to a considerable extent, as small portion of which has arrived here. He has purchased 6/4 woolen cloth at 4 pounds Sterling, say 96 cents, which, adding exchange and transportation, I estimate to cost here $2.50 to $2.75 per yard. The exchange with which these purchases were made was bought by him at about 125% premium.

For cloths, of an inferior quality to that purchased by Maj. Ferguson, I have been forced to pay $12.00 per yard, within the last six months, and at this time from $7 to $8.50 per yard. And I do not think out of the present supply of wool I can have goods manufactured of the quality made by the mills in this vicinity, at less than present prices.

I do not think that the average supply of wool in the Confederacy is adequate to the wants of the government and the people, neither have we woolen mills enough. And I therefore respectfully and earnestly recommend that arrangements be made to procure a supply of material for clothing in England. This is a question of great importance.

In April of 1863, the CS gov't could buy fabric (100% wool0 and ship it through the blockade for about $2.50 a yard. Domestically produced cloth cost about $7-8/yard and up to as much as $12/yard. Using that as a piece of the puzzle and taking into account the amount of stuff that came in through Charleston, I'd think any all wool Charleston produced product would be of an english produced material.

Some things to keep in mind about these jackets:
There are 2 in the Charleston UDC museum (rotting away and being neglected by an ill informed staff) that are english kersey.
The lyons and daniels jacket (both dating to the atlanta campaign) are a plain weave wool.
Period documents and photos show Charleston based soldiers in what appear to be charleston jackets made out of jean.

What does it all mean? Who knows really. I think Jensens article was a landmark work and laid the foundation for our our knowledge today, but today, that article is old enough to buy beer. EOG is old enough to vote. The McCrae papers alone are turning what we thought we knew upside down.

For me, the more I research and learn, the more I have to step back and "un learn" something I'd already thought to be true. CS QM stuff isn't neat and linear. XX troops didn't only receive clothing from YY depot. YY depot didn't make all of their jackets out of ABC cloth and then at the start of the 3rd quarter promptly switch to XYZ cloth.

Gotta head to work, more later.

the quote from Maj Waller is from Jim Schrueffer's excellent site: blueandgraymarching.com

[CSchneider]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

I don't remember who sent me this photo of the cloth, so my apologies for not giving credit where it is due. Anyway, blue grey on white wool, tightly woven and well finished (as least well enough that it appears the maker was content to simply whip the raw edge of the inner collar over the body lining without fear of the cloth fraying).

-Craig Schneider

[Archie R. Lib]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Craig - Great photo! Thanks for putting it up. Is that the Lyon jacket?

[Cameron]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

I really wish David Chinnis would chime in on this.
Here are some pics he sent me when I was doing a Childs kit. Childs described it as an all wool, plain woven. Charlie's material is pretty darn close. I conversed with the SCRRM during this project but was unable to get pics. In talking with the museum, though, they did confirm that the presence of belt loops have been identified on the Lyons jacket. Something Jenson did not refer to (or see?). This fact, all of a sudden, puts the Lyons jacket more in a class with the Charleston Depot jackets. Charleston Depot jackets share all the common features with so-called Atlanta Depot features with the addition of belt loops. These are the only three pics I have(and all credit goes to David Chinnis, Thank you). Apparently, David Chinnis had posted several photos before the crash, I don't know if the pictures survived or not a search didn't yield them.



Sorry Mark to hijack the thread.

[Cameron]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Also, just to throw this in. The link below is from a thread about Sherman's March. Thanks Mr. Alleman for posting this because you actually get a glimpse of the Lyons jacket starting at 6:50 into the video. I noticed the jacket in the background, it happened to be around the time I was working on the jacket. I commented on this video, and the jacket in the background, to the staff at the museum. They laughed and said that normally this jacket isn't just hanging out like that, but that actually they had just received the jacket back from Eastern Europe where restorative work had been done. The staff indicated that these little old ladies in the Ukraine or some such place were about the only people left in the world with the skill to perform this kind of needle work. I found that fact amazing.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?24596-History-Detective-s-Sherman-s-march-route&highlight=sherman%27s+march

Enjoy

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Lindsey - yes, the Daniels jacket is the one in the Midway Church Museum on the coast. Daniels' unit was on coastal duty just prior to their involvement in the Atlanta Campaign, where he was wounded at Noonday (about 1.5-2 miles north of Kennesaw Mountian) in June 1864.

In examining the the Daniels jacket, it is definately blue/grey and definately all plains weave. Now, interesting enough,from what I observed, the yarn used to make the blue/grey compared very favorably to the yarn used in enlgish kersey (although the weaves are not the same at all). Now, this isn't necessarily a slam-dunk on the origin of the cloth but I definately think Bryant et al are onto something. I've only examined the Daniels jacket, but from what I understand from David Chinnis (who has examined both), the cloth was identical to the Lyons jacket. Another interesting feature (in addition to the large epaulet-sized belt loop) was the size of the buttonholes - huge. If I can find a pic, i'll post but those may be on another computer.

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

Here are two more photos of the Daniels jacket from the Midway Museum. I think Pat Landrum posted these elsewhere on the forum several years ago.

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Atlanta Depot Jacket

http://adolphusconfederateuniforms.com/finally-found.html

Lets not forget this jacket. It matches the above jackets in construction and the
UDC jackets in material. And is iron clad trans miss. Go figure.