4th NY picture question

[John of the Skulkers Mess]

cap'd

The un-visored cap is just an oddity in my book; could be a forage cap without it's bill for some reason, or it could be something else... no one can say at this point . . .


- - - - -


Maybe its on backward.


john pillers
TSM

[TJ Markert]

Re: 4th NY picture question

While doing some cartridge box research at the NJ National Guard Museum, I recall seeing many cartridge boxes similar to those pictured.They were post Civil War issue and used with the trapdoor conversion rifles. I have other pictures of the local malitia marching off to the Spanish American War in uniforms and equipment that closely resembles CW era equipment such as uniforms, kepis and backpacks. Could the year of the photo be misrepresented? If someone could zero in on and identify the rifles that are stacked, it could help answer the question.

TJ Markert

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: 4th NY picture question

While doing some cartridge box research at the NJ National Guard Museum, I recall seeing many cartridge boxes similar to those pictured.They were post Civil War issue and used with the trapdoor conversion rifles. I have other pictures of the local malitia marching off to the Spanish American War in uniforms and equipment that closely resembles CW era equipment such as uniforms, kepis and backpacks. Could the year of the photo be misrepresented? If someone could zero in on and identify the rifles that are stacked, it could help answer the question.

TJ Markert

I think you are talking about McKeever boxes. No this is without a doubt a Civil War image.

[pipthelimey]

Re: 4th NY picture question

Matt - I'd guess that might be a Militia style or National Guard issue - 20 in each box perhaps? Anyone have Paul Johnson's book handy?

Wasn't the 1855 Rifleman's Belt part of a load-bearing system? I seem to remember that it balanced the gear better. Perhaps the system had two smaller cartridge boxes and these men were issued surplus leather goods. I know that the "chest straps" on Federal double bags were originally designed to go with the the 1855 rifleman's belt. That's why there are two of the dang things.

Andrew Jerram

[markj]

Re: 4th NY picture question

Greetings,

Here's an idle thought: Maybe the pipe-smoker with two pouches was using one of them to store something else; perhaps, say, tobacco for his chin-dangler?

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: 41st NY picture question

In Troiani's Regiments and Uniforms, he devotes two plates to the two different styles of uniforms that 41st NY wore in 1861.

The majority of the regiment wore a green uniform coat w/red facings, etc.
and at least one company wore a zouave style uniform.

Michael McAfee who wrote the text for the plates quotes from period Manhattan newspapers that the regiment had it's knapsacks and equipments patterned after Prussian style, etc., etc.

So if we work in the comments from James Miller on period German states, universal conscription, etc. and the likelihood that these are either imported boxes from a german state OR (more likely) boxes made in New York by a contractor for the regiment via the Union Defence Committee.

And, that this photo is most likely their 2nd or 3rd issuance of clothing/equipage (i.e. summer 1862) as evidenced by their New York jackets, dark blue trowsers, etc. etc. Evident that they had been recently issued from NY state and they are holding remanants of their 1861 equipage as well (boxes)...

The un-visored cap is just an oddity in my book; could be a forage cap without it's bill for some reason, or it could be something else... no one can say at this point . . .

Recently while doing some research at the NYHS I came across some requisition forms for this regiment which pertain to the original discussion. The regiment contracted with George Schmolze (a merchant) for their uniforms and equipage. I have transcribed the original requisitions forms here:

George Schmolze
bill dated June 18, 1861

Ordance
furnished [to the] DeKalb Regiment, Col. L. von Gilsa

now 41st Regiment New York Vols.

1861 1046 Body belts & clasps @ 0.45 $470.70
June 18 1046 catridge boxes} @ 2.25 $2353.50
1046 cap puches
$2824.20



__________________________


George Schmolze
bill dated June 18, 1861

Outfits & Equipments
furnished [to the] DeKalb Regiment, Col. L. von Gilsa

now 41st Regiment New York Vols.

1861 1046 Uniforms (coat & pants) @ 9.70 $10146.20
June 18 1046 Overcoats @ 6.80 7112.80
1046 caps @ 0.65 679.90
1046 Letters for do. @ 0.12ct 130.75
2092 Flannel undershirts @ 0.80 1673.60
2092 pair woolen half hose @0.13 271.96
1046 knapsacks @2.50 2615.00
1046 canteens, cloth covered w/ straps @.45 470.70
1046 tin kettles and tin cups @0.25 261.50
1046 Haversacks @0.50 523.00
$23885.41

[GreencoatCross]

Re: 4th NY picture question

I can't add to the equipment discussion, but here is an image that was found in a USSS photo album last year. The particular album, the property of Warren Fletcher, a NH Sharpshooter in the 2nd Regiment, was bought on eBay and the modern owner subsequently broke up the full album and sold each CDV to whomever had the cash.

One of the photos was of Richard Fletcher, Warren's brother and a member of the 5th N.H. Vols. His cap has no visor! If you look close you'll see that the cap has a chinstrap as well as company letter and corps badge. The cap does appear to be intact all around except for the visor. I cannot say for certain what is happening with his cap but it's got to be issued that way or else he removed the visor himself. Some caps were made this way: don't forget about the "Butterflies," that gaudy NJ regiment of cavalry. Aside from orange-lined talmas and braided Hussar jackets they wore visorless forage caps.

Brian White
Randolph Mess, USSS
Slackerz Saloon Mess, GHTI

[JustRob]

State Coats!

What I like most of all in this photo are the NY State Coats. I've never seen that many of them together in one picture before. They do look great.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: 41st NY picture question

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/41stInf/41stInfHistSketch.htm

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/41stInf/41stInfMain.htm#photos

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/btlflags/infantry/41stInfMarker.htm

Here are three links full of great info on the background and history of this Reg't. for those who care to peruse.