Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

[texandrummer61]

From what I have heard, keeping your hat in it's original, clean,shaped condition has been acknowledged as the right thing to do, but I recently came across something very interesting.

"Ike Kerr filled the place of cook,a tinner by trade and a natured well disposed fellow- He was nicknamed Sibley from the shape of his hat which had been used to hold water so often that it became the shape of a funnel, and the various uses this article was put to, such as dusting the ashes out of skillets and as a guard against hot handles,etc.,made it useful as well as ornamental..." [pg. 37 , Ten Months in the Orphan Brigade by Conrad Wise Chapman, edited by Ben Bassham]

[Stateline]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Just my 2 cents worth but if one buys a well made & correctly made hat then normal wear,tear & use will reshape the hat somewhat. The alternative is to buy a cheap,floppy hat off sutler row that will look bad from day one. A good hat ain't cheap so it makes sense to make an effort to take care of it & keep it in shape if you can.

George Eason/1st Ga. Stateline

[texandrummer61]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Just my 2 cents worth but if one buys a well made & correctly made hat then normal wear,tear & use will reshape the hat somewhat. The alternative is to buy a cheap,floppy hat off sutler row that will look bad from day one. A good hat ain't cheap so it makes sense to make an effort to take care of it & keep it in shape if you can.

George Eason/1st Ga. Stateline

What you are saying is true, but the point I was trying to make was that this individual clearly did not make any effort to take care of his hat.

[LWhite64]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Well to add a little bit of what I have learned with my poor hat over the years. I purchased a little brown hat ten years ago this weekend at Selma. Since then that hat has been through the wringer. I have blown the crown out, it has been through much rain and sweat, so much so that I have rotted out the sweat band and the lining. The crown has blown out due to being worn so much during the summers doing living history programs at Chickamauga. The hat has now faded to a sand color from the original caramel color. But it still holds most of its shape. the brim still has a little curl to it, although the crown exposes my hair to the sky. Basically, a well made hat even if abused will still look very different from the shapeless pieces of felt that are sold on Sutlers Row.

Lee

[markj]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Greetings,

Interesting topic, given that I've repeatedly noted admonitions by progressives to "avoid wearing 'hillbilly hats.'" The problem with this line of thinking is that a review of extant images showing Confederate troops (particularly those of POWs) do, indeed, show them frequently wearing beaten-down "hillbilly-style" hats. Illustrating this perfectly is that well-known, full-length studio image of a Confederate infantryman, wearing a knapsack, and holding his rifle at a slouched position while looking directly at the camera (I don't think this photo has ever been specifically identified to a particular individual or unit--possibly Alabama or Georgia?). The man's hat looks pretty "hillbilly" to me--the front part of the brim is pinned up with the remainder at "half mast."

You can also see use of floppy-brimmed hats by Federal troops. As "Exhibit A," I have attached a circa July 1862 image of Colonel James H. Childs, 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry (KIA, Sharpsburg, 17 September 1862).

Thoughts? Fulminations?

Mark Jaeger

[BrianHicks]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Regarding Hats.

Allow me to express my thoughts (as un-educated and un-scientific as they may be...)

The example of the cook is an exception, rather thant the norm (in my humble opinion). He restorted to using his hat as a tool for his trade. It was available, and it fit his immediate needs. Did the ordinary soldier do such things? I doubt it.

How long do you think any individual in the ranks, kept his hat before losing it, or replacing it with a pick-up off the field? Unlike us, whom keep our hats close (due to the cost no doubt) do you think a soldier, in a rush across a field, if he stumbles, or if his hat gets knocked off, is going to pause to retrieve it, or is he going to continue forward with his line of battle?

How many modern Military folks have ever 'appropriated' a needed item? The same would have held true 140 years ago. I have no problem believing that soldiers would not have hesitated to 'trade up' when their hat became to mis-shaped. Afterall... how much rain does a droopy hill-billy hat keep of you? Like an umbrella with out the ribs, it wont' perform to well. Why keep a hat that is malformed, and no longer truely functional when pick-ups from a battle field are available?

POW pictures? Well... those POWs have littel choice but to live with what they have, with little hopes of trading-up for something better.

Why write about a mis-shaped hat at all? Most likely because the appearance of one is out of the ordinary, a rarity, etc. Most folks rarely write about what is common and accepted, but when they encounter something out of the ordinary, then it is noteworthy and likely to be written about.

So... I don't accept the premis that there should be a lot of unshaped, droppy hill-billy hats in the ranks as I doubt such head gear was very prolific in 1860s.

Yet even as we have in the modern military, I'm sure they had their 10 percenters... those very few that had keep their old hats, regardless of how much they had lost their shape or practical usefulness.

[Stateline]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Greetings,

Interesting topic, given that I've repeatedly noted admonitions by progressives to "avoid wearing 'hillbilly hats.'" The problem with this line of thinking is that a review of extant images showing Confederate troops (particularly those of POWs) do, indeed, show them frequently wearing beaten-down "hillbilly-style" hats.

Mark Jaeger

I think that when progressive folks say to avoid wearing hillbilly hats they probably mean to start out with a good quality hat & to avoid the cheap floppy hats on sutler row. Some of these cheap hats are just unfinished blanks anyway. I've got an old hat myself & it looks pretty rough & its a little on the floppy side but it did start off as a quality hat so it still holds its shape somewhat & it reflects realisticaly how a decent hat would eventually lose some of it's shape. I have noticed that the cheap hats after a few years won't even resemble a hat any longer, just a misshapen piece of felt.

George Eason/1st Ga. Stateline

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Well a hat may end up misshapened beat up and even floppy, but I have no doubt in my mind that those hats started as a well shaped hat. As with other pieces of kit let it age naturaly and if your hat ends up a bit kicked about so be it. Just as long as you start with a hat and not one of those goofy sutler row unfinished blanks.

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

If we are going to talk about the shape or misshaping of hats worn in the field, then it would behoove us to view some images of men wearing hats in the field.

I think that written descriptions can somewhat be clouded with opinion or interpreted in numerous ways depending upon the point of view of the writer and the reader. What might be sloppy and misshappen to an man of the 1860s might not be considered so by us and vice-versa. What might be mishapen to a man of means might not be so to a man of lower standing &c.

Also, I think the term "hillbilly hat" is another one of those yet undefined terms along the same lines as farb; they mean different things to different people. There is a lot of subjectivism here. There are some hillbillies back in the mountains here near Emmitsburg that wear all kinds of different hats.:wink_smil I believe "hillbilly hat" is a modern term to denote a thing that we would rather not see at an event. Rather than dwelling on this modern notion, I believe we should be letting the past speak for itself.

Anyway, I have included as attachments some photographs of Confederate prisoners who were recently captured. They are not internment photographs, but would give a decent overview of what hats (and uniforms) would have looked like "in the field."

The first photograph is the famous three Confederate prisoners at Gettysburg taken on Seminary Ridge.

The second photograph is a group of Confederate prisoners taken at Fairfax Courthouse in June of 1863.

A great blow up of a photograph can be found in this thread and posted by John Stillwagon: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...ight=prisoners

There are other photographs of Confederates that were provided by Jason Wickersty, but I can't seem to find them.

I think the general "flavor" of headgear coming from these photographs is weather-worn or worn-through-use, but not necessarily or purposely "beat up."

[2MDF&D]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Gents,
IMHO I agree and I agree to disagree. I still feel it depended on the individual, on his, or, on "the" circumtances. His habits, etc, etc. Generally folks kept a fashionably proper and decent appearance. They followed the rules of fashion for the day just as we do nowadays. But function and practicality played into it as well, just as now. Then, his personality came through. His sense of flair. Some showed it, some didn't. Some thought about cocking their hat, but most probably didn't give it a second thought, but yet their hat looks jaunty to us. There are so many subtlties that we can only speculate on their motives for doing what they did, how they wore what they wore. Any and all applies. The proof is in the photos. I don't think a guy is going to toss his hat because it drooped on him in the rain day after day because he thought it ugly. (but, maybe he did!) They certainly chided someone for goofy looking stuff. But do we really know which hat was the goofy one? He didn't get to see himself in a mirror every day, either. He heard from it his mates. It was usually corrected early on, too. There were quality hats and there were cheap ones. So, what are we seeing in the photos? I think it's all of it. Hat's as they came from the hat box, hat's modified by the man, and hats modified by use and weather. Quality, cheap, and anywhere in between.

Regards,
Rob McFarland
2MD, Co E, Fifes and Drums

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Howdy All,

Got a kick out of this thread. I am of the opinion that reenactors are more concerned with fashion than the original troops were.

The attached photo says it better than I can. It shows men of the 23rd NY, probably in the spring of 1863.

Look at the fellow at the far right -- no c/p/h would be caught dead in that topper. Another has tucked his trousers into his socks, and the tent in the center is held up by two bayonetted muskets.

(Edit: the photo is a no-show for some reason. Stand by folks...)

John Tobey

[BrianHicks]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

There will always be exceptions to the norm.

We are most likely to never fully understand what was truelly PEC with regards to the quality/shape of their headgear, but a review of the photographic evidence leads to me to believe that the preponderance of soldiers were mindful enough to keep their hats in a serviceable condition.

Afterall...if we were to rely on the exceptions found in a few images, then perhaps we should all be wearing those infamous leopard skin trousers. :wink_smil

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Floppy/Misshaped Slouch Hats

Howdy all,

I'm going to try and post the photo again.

This is not an isolated piece of evidence, there are other photos of crappy hats in the field, including the ones already mentioned. Please note, I'm talking about extremely worn, misshapen, or flopped hats and hats without trim. I'm *not* talking about the fuzzy, loose felt "mush mouse" hats.

I do not intend to say that the majority of troops wore such headgear; I was using this example to point out how some of our perceptions are based more on reenactor fashion than the historical record.

For example...

Evidence shows that some (not all) soldiers threw away their cartridge box sling plate. When one or two c/p/h'ers shows up at an event sans said plate, it's accepted. Show one feller with an untrimmed flopped hat, (or tucked cuffs, or ID sheild, or NCO without stripes, etc etc etc) however, and aspersions do fly!

John Tobey