Ammunition Crates

[Bill]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Sean,

To the best of my knowledge, Federal ammo boxes were stenciled on both ends only. And as Dan said, using white paint, at least on the OD green boxes. I've never seen one of the "lead", "red", or "blue" colored boxes for .69 cal. ammo, but I would guess these boxes were stenciled in black for visibility. I would be interested if anyone has specific information on these .69 boxes.

The few boxes I've been able to handle were painted on the bottom. That
makes sense, since the paint helps waterproof the box.

The number of rounds, type and caliber of ammunition, and the year packed was about all that was stenciled on the outside of the box. Many Federal boxes also had a bullet stenciled on the box for the soldiers who could not read.

Specific arsenal information was stenciled on the inside of the top. This is one of the problems with identifing which arsenal packed a particular box. Most surviving ammo boxes are missing their tops. While the basic information is always the same, each arsenal had their own style of marking their boxes.

[Jim Peterson]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Hey Bill;

A number of the boxes shown in the book "Roundball to Rimfire" are marked with the Round information on both ends and the Arsenal information on the inside of the cover and on one side. Pages 63 and 84 show boxes from St Louis and Watervliet.

There are variations between Arsenals and even between different years of the same arsenal but the basic format remained the same for "most" boxes. Round type and count on each end with the arsenal on one side and the arsenal and date of manufacture on the inside.

It is easy to look through the book and find an arsenal that fits the area and time you wish to use and then have stencils cut. I made a box with the correct outside measurements and took it and the book to an office supply store. I showed them what I wanted and let them keep the book while they cut the stencils.

Jim Peterson

[Bill]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Hey Bill;

"A number of the boxes shown in the book "Roundball to Rimfire" are marked with the Round information on both ends and the Arsenal information on the inside of the cover and on one side. Pages 63 and 84 show boxes from St Louis and Watervliet."

Jim Peterson

Jim,

Two other books that contain excellent photos of Ammo Boxes are "Ready- Aim - Fire! Small Arms Auuunition in the Battle of Gettysburg" and "An Introduction To Civil War Small Arms"

"Civil War Small Arms" has a great picture of a Richmond Arsenal Box, which was an entirely different shape then the Federal boxes.

The Gettysburg National Museum has an excellent, and well preserved Watervliet box, that has the top attached with leather hinges. An interesting thing is the box is stenciled "CAL .57" Which is I believe is the actual size of Watervliet's bullets. I copied the stencils from this box, for a box that I made.

Thanks for your correction of my statement concerning the arsenal markings on the side of the box. I was going by my memory of the few boxes I've been able to examine, that lacked that feature. A good lesson to get the books out, and check your facts, before putting your typing fingers in gear!

[Jim Peterson]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Hey Bill;

At the begining of the war the US arsenals were producing both the .58 and .577 rounds. That was a supply problem getting the right rounds to the right rifles. The .577 quickly became the standard. As the war went on the arsenals began to shrink the rounds down to .575 with some ending up at .57 by the end of the war.

So the arsenal and date you put on your box will indicate the round size required. Just another thing to research.

Jim Peterson

[Bill]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Hey Bill;

At the begining of the war the US arsenals were producing both the .58 and .577 rounds. That was a supply problem getting the right rounds to the right rifles. The .577 quickly became the standard. As the war went on the arsenals began to shrink the rounds down to .575 with some ending up at .57 by the end of the war.

So the arsenal and date you put on your box will indicate the round size required. Just another thing to research.

Jim Peterson

Jim,

The Watervliet Box in the Gettysburg National Museum is marked "CAL. .57", and was packed in February 1862. (Based on the information on the inside of the lid and the year date on the end of the box) I hope this helps, or maybe just confuses the issue even more!

[Jim Peterson]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Hey Bill;

The fall of 1861 was a busy time for the US Army. A number of letters were transmitted between the War Department, Ordnance Department and the various Arsenals about the ammunition requirments for the American and British rifles. By January 1862 Watervliet was producing only the reduced size round at about .574 .

By 1864 there was still some variation in the rounds produced by the various Arsenals. A portion of a report by Maj. J.G. Benton dated August 3, 1864 stated in part "...Two different Bullets were found in the packages of the cartridges made at Frankfort-one weighed 574 grains and the other 539 grains. The true weight of the Regulation bullet is about 500 grains.
The diameter of the Frankfort and Watertown bullets is .573 in. while that of the Watervliet bullet according to careful measurement is only .57 in. and the weight of the bullet is 496 grains...".

Die wear increased the size plus a number of firms produced bullets for the various arsenals. The new dies started at .573 and were used until they wore to about .57425 . They did not use .574 dies because they would have worn too quickly. So a summation would be that the rounds got smaller as the war went on and that there would be slight variations within each box as to actual size.

More detailed information can be found in the book Round Ball to Rimfire by Dean S. Thomas. It's a great source for Boxes, Bundles, Wraps, Loads and much more.

Jim Peterson

[1stMaine]

Re: Ammo boxes?

Comrade,
In "Ready, Aim, Fire..." there is a letter in the back (pp72) from Ord. Major W.A.Thornton of the Watervliet Arsenal dated 27 May 1862 to Captain M.R.Stevenson of the 7th US Infantry, Madison Barracks, NY. The good captain had returned some ammunition to the arsenal because he had found it to be labled .58 calibre, but actual only 57/100 inch calibre. The Major replies..." Respecting this matter, I have to inform you that no cartridges are made of .58 Calibre they are all of .57 Calibre, which makes them answerable for the Enfield muskets of .57 and the American muskets of .58 Calibre. The advantage of this is that one kind of ammunition answers for two kinds of arms and gives greater ease and rapidity in loading the American musket. For the same reasons we have but one kind of ammunition for the American rifle of .54 and the Austrian rifle of .55 Calibre as we only furnish rifle cartridges of .54 Calibre.
For the reasons I have explained, I have directed the M.S.K. to remark the 3 boxes containing 3000 rifle musket cartridges .57 Cal. and return to your address pursuant to order of supplies from Washington."

Respects,

[Qb17Joe]

Wooden AMMO boxes

I was wondering what was written on the top of an ammo box from a richmond arsenal, and what the demensions roughly were. also if there were seperators or what. I am trying to make a couple of them


Thanks for your Help,
Joe Whitehead

5th Va Co. G

[Will Eichler]

Re: Wooden AMMO boxes

Joe,

While I have no knowledge of arsenal boxes specifically from a Richmond arsenal I will call your attention to the 1863 Ordnance Manual for the Confederate States. There are dimentsion for Packing Boxes for 1000 cartridges. They are on page 257 of my Morningside reproduction.

If you need the actual information, email me and I'll get it for you. I'm getting married on Saturday, so speak quickly or be willing to wait until after the 24th of February.

Good luck,

Will Eichler

[Spongebucket]

Ammunition Crates

Okay fellows. I have been looking for the proper marking for small arms ammunition crates. I have read the ordnance manual 1861 and know the sizes and the colors for the various rounds. And even where the markings belong..."on both ends with the number and kind of balls, and on the inside of the cover with the place and date of fabrication." As there are several interpretations to this and with so few of origanl items in existance...the question what is the wording?
1000 Cart.
type of ball
calibre

1000
type of ball

should the type of weapong they are for be listed?
if so, then if you are shooting .69, does this mean....m.1816, m. 1842
and in the .58 category....you get the picture.

or what ever varient the one can come up with. I mean look at what is usually knocked out and sitting on sutler row.
The topic is brought up not to see hwo many folks cn come up with variations, or what they have seen on the market. I am looking for some info that is a bit more definative.

Any infor would be great.

Thanks
Joe Blunt

[markj]

Re: Ammunition Crates

Okay fellows. I have been looking for the proper marking for small arms ammunition crates. I have read the ordnance manual 1861 and know the sizes and the colors for the various rounds. And even where the markings belong..."on both ends with the number and kind of balls, and on the inside of the cover with the place and date of fabrication." As there are several interpretations to this and with so few of origanl items in existance...the question what is the wording?
1000 Cart.
type of ball
calibre

1000
type of ball

should the type of weapong they are for be listed?
if so, then if you are shooting .69, does this mean....m.1816, m. 1842
and in the .58 category....you get the picture.

or what ever varient the one can come up with. I mean look at what is usually knocked out and sitting on sutler row.
The topic is brought up not to see hwo many folks cn come up with variations, or what they have seen on the market. I am looking for some info that is a bit more definative.

Any infor would be great.

Thanks
Joe Blunt

Hi Joe,

I would suggest you look through previous threads as this subject has been repeatedly discussed in the past. Here's a start:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/search.php?searchid=69827

I have also attached an enlarged view of a Confederate ammo box depicted in one of the Fort Mahone "death studies" made in the Petersburg trenches on 3 April 1865. Doing a search through other contemporary images will provide you with additional photographic examples.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Will Eichler]

Re: Ammunition Crates

Joe,

The Ord Manual is a good place to start. To go further, especially for markings, I direct you to "Round Ball to Rimfire: A History of Civil War Small Arms Ammunition, Part One" by Dean S. Thomas.

The work is primarily about the ammunition but Dean has provided photos of many Ammunition boxes from his collection and others to support. They are entirely Federal but represent most arsenals from (I believe) all years of the war. It's a great read and you should be able to deduce what you need from the pictures. When I dropped Dean a letter last year to ask about sizes of the boxes, he refered me to the ord. manual.

A note of caution. From my inspection of his photos (and no more), it seems there are several different methods of jointing the box sides used, not just the dovetail called for in the Ord Manual. If my eyes are correct, I saw butt joints, half lap joints and dovetail joints all used. You might decide which box to build and use the appropriate joint as well.

Best of luck,

Will

[justthemiller]

Re: Ammunition Crates

Hey Mark,

The attachment you posted of the ammunition crate is, in all likelyhood, a federal one. The markings on it closely resemble a known federal one that is pictured in the book "From Roundball to Rimfire Vol. I." Either way it is still a very interesting close-up.

[markj]

Re: Ammunition Crates

Hey Mark,

The attachment you posted of the ammunition crate is, in all likelyhood, a federal one. The markings on it closely resemble a known federal one that is pictured in the book "From Roundball to Rimfire Vol. I." Either way it is still a very interesting close-up.

Hi James,

This is a vexing subject. However, given that the box is shown directly adjacent to a dead Confederate soldier in the Petersburg trenches, it was almost certainly Confederate in origin. There are one or more Petersburg-area photographs depicting Federal troops, and taken around the same time, that also show ammunition boxes in the scene(s). As I recall, William Frassanito's "Lee and Grant" book, about photography during the Overland Campaign and Siege of Petersburg, includes at least one of these.

I can believe photographers moved rifles, and even bodies, to "improve" a photograph but I find it hard to believe they'd take the extra time and effort to track down an ammo box to toss into a scene. Guess we'll never know beyond a reasonable doubt!

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[Yellowhammer]

Re: Ammunition Crates

Guys,

For comparison, here is an original August 1864 dated Richmond Arsenal ammunition crate.





Markings are:

96 Lbs
~1000~
Cart. Cal. 57-58
ELONGATED
BALL
Richmond Arsenal
Augt. 1864

I have pictures of a Selma Arsenal crate at home. Markings are very similar except that crate is not marked with the overall weight as this example is.